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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 1:55 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What I see is using the term like you might in an every day job, not having your contract renewed in F1 is the equivalent to being sacked.

However with Vettel I hear conflicting stories whether Ferrari let him go or he simply left.

This is giving me flashbacks to when Alonso left Ferrari and we had people claiming he was fired...

Vettel may have forced himself out by refusing to take the offer Ferrari gave him, but there's nothing to indicate he was shown the door.

I'm sure there is a story running which says that Vettel was never offered a contract.

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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 1:56 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Harpo wrote:
He was not sacked. His ending contract was now renewed, which is not the same thing.
I always considered Vettel as overrated, so I may not be the right person to comment this, but why should Ferrari offer another contract to an expensive driver they may consider as "not necessary anymore" ?

This has to be semantics about the word sacked, you can only be sacked mid contract?


Obviously. You can't be sacked from a job you didn't have. Even in sports the terminology "sacked" isn't used for someone out of contract.

What I see is using the term like you might in an every day job, not having your contract renewed in F1 is the equivalent to being sacked.

However with Vettel I hear conflicting stories whether Ferrari let him go or he simply left.


No, it is absolutely not the equivalent of being sacked. You can be sacked in F1. If a team chooses to break contract and pay you off so they can hire someone else. A team signing a different driver to drive for them after the contract has expired can in no way be held as an equivalence to someone being sacked from a job. It's not termonalgy used in any other sport and for good reason.

Sacked, dropped, dropped sounds nicer?

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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 2:02 pm 
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Greenman wrote:
.

IF the reports are true, then it SEEMS that Ferrari gave Vettel a difficult choice, accept extremely reduced salary or leave.

Considering Vettel's known foibles, to me that means that Ferrari "forced" Vettel out (he would not be willing to submit to the humiliation) other may say that Ferrari just made a commercially realistic offer of employment to Vettel and he "chose" to take his services elsewhere.

So many options to choose from - so many wordings to choose from.

.

There's so many stories circulating one saying it was a combination of salary and status within the team, he would except one but not both, salary would be the same as Leclerc that being a 70% pay cut, status is a bit more confusing, equal status or #2 status?

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 5:21 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Sacked, dropped, dropped sounds nicer?


I don't care about what sounds nicer. Just use a term that is accurate. Describing an out of contract driver as "sacked" is misleading, and what word does it leave you to use when a driver is actually sacked?


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 12:12 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Sacked, dropped, dropped sounds nicer?


I don't care about what sounds nicer. Just use a term that is accurate. Describing an out of contract driver as "sacked" is misleading, and what word does it leave you to use when a driver is actually sacked?

Like a drivers that's out of a job.

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 2:02 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Sacked, dropped, dropped sounds nicer?


I don't care about what sounds nicer. Just use a term that is accurate. Describing an out of contract driver as "sacked" is misleading, and what word does it leave you to use when a driver is actually sacked?

Like a drivers that's out of a job.


?


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 10:51 pm 
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I hope he finds another seat somewhere. He's way too good of a driver to retire now and it would be a real shame to lose him from the grid.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 11:18 pm 
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redjohnd wrote:
I hope he finds another seat somewhere. He's way too good of a driver to retire now and it would be a real shame to lose him from the grid.

If it was his decision to leave Ferrari then that's partly on him.

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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 7:16 am 
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pokerman wrote:
redjohnd wrote:
I hope he finds another seat somewhere. He's way too good of a driver to retire now and it would be a real shame to lose him from the grid.

If it was his decision to leave Ferrari then that's partly on him.


Does it matter? We lose out by not having Vettel on the grid.


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 8:16 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
redjohnd wrote:
I hope he finds another seat somewhere. He's way too good of a driver to retire now and it would be a real shame to lose him from the grid.

If it was his decision to leave Ferrari then that's partly on him.

Does it matter? We lose out by not having Vettel on the grid.

Agreed. This isn't about some judgement of Vettel's decision; F1 is less by not having him on the grid, and it's as simple as that. If he is replaced (unless it's by Alonso, I suppose) it will be by a weaker driver, making F1 as a whole weaker.

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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 9:09 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
redjohnd wrote:
I hope he finds another seat somewhere. He's way too good of a driver to retire now and it would be a real shame to lose him from the grid.

If it was his decision to leave Ferrari then that's partly on him.

Does it matter? We lose out by not having Vettel on the grid.

Agreed. This isn't about some judgement of Vettel's decision; F1 is less by not having him on the grid, and it's as simple as that. If he is replaced (unless it's by Alonso, I suppose) it will be by a weaker driver, making F1 as a whole weaker.


I agree with all of the above, but in the meantime I keep asking myself if I want to see a top driver in a smaller/lower team just to be in F1, being wasted frankly. He surely made his bed, but equally it feels like he still has plenty to offer.


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 9:49 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
redjohnd wrote:
I hope he finds another seat somewhere. He's way too good of a driver to retire now and it would be a real shame to lose him from the grid.

If it was his decision to leave Ferrari then that's partly on him.

Does it matter? We lose out by not having Vettel on the grid.

Agreed. This isn't about some judgement of Vettel's decision; F1 is less by not having him on the grid, and it's as simple as that. If he is replaced (unless it's by Alonso, I suppose) it will be by a weaker driver, making F1 as a whole weaker.


I agree with all of the above, but in the meantime I keep asking myself if I want to see a top driver in a smaller/lower team just to be in F1, being wasted frankly. He surely made his bed, but equally it feels like he still has plenty to offer.


It's not ideal but there is still a lot of value in the midfield. I'd rather have Vettel in the midfield than a poorer standard driver even if it is just in the midfield. Also worth remembering that we may soon be out of this phase of stability where a midfield team will always be in the midfield. Rule changes often creates a large shake up and those scheduled for 2022 may close up the field again. If it closes up to levels like 2009 then Vettel in a midfield car could do a lot of damage.


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 11:40 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If it was his decision to leave Ferrari then that's partly on him.

Does it matter? We lose out by not having Vettel on the grid.

Agreed. This isn't about some judgement of Vettel's decision; F1 is less by not having him on the grid, and it's as simple as that. If he is replaced (unless it's by Alonso, I suppose) it will be by a weaker driver, making F1 as a whole weaker.


I agree with all of the above, but in the meantime I keep asking myself if I want to see a top driver in a smaller/lower team just to be in F1, being wasted frankly. He surely made his bed, but equally it feels like he still has plenty to offer.


It's not ideal but there is still a lot of value in the midfield. I'd rather have Vettel in the midfield than a poorer standard driver even if it is just in the midfield. Also worth remembering that we may soon be out of this phase of stability where a midfield team will always be in the midfield. Rule changes often creates a large shake up and those scheduled for 2022 may close up the field again. If it closes up to levels like 2009 then Vettel in a midfield car could do a lot of damage.


Agreed. Here's to hope!


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:14 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
redjohnd wrote:
I hope he finds another seat somewhere. He's way too good of a driver to retire now and it would be a real shame to lose him from the grid.

If it was his decision to leave Ferrari then that's partly on him.


Does it matter? We lose out by not having Vettel on the grid.

You can't force people to drive if they don't want to, neither can you give in it to what they want if it's unreasonable, Vettel probably can stay in F1 if he wants to, he's not exactly being forced out, I'm not sure about all the angst?

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:22 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
redjohnd wrote:
I hope he finds another seat somewhere. He's way too good of a driver to retire now and it would be a real shame to lose him from the grid.

If it was his decision to leave Ferrari then that's partly on him.


Does it matter? We lose out by not having Vettel on the grid.

You can't force people to drive if they don't want to, neither can you give in it to what they want if it's unreasonable, Vettel probably can stay in F1 if he wants to, he's not exactly being forced out, I'm not sure about all the angst?


As my post says we lose out by not having one of the best drivers on the grid. Not really much more to it.


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 3:20 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
redjohnd wrote:
I hope he finds another seat somewhere. He's way too good of a driver to retire now and it would be a real shame to lose him from the grid.

If it was his decision to leave Ferrari then that's partly on him.


Does it matter? We lose out by not having Vettel on the grid.

You can't force people to drive if they don't want to, neither can you give in it to what they want if it's unreasonable, Vettel probably can stay in F1 if he wants to, he's not exactly being forced out, I'm not sure about all the angst?


As my post says we lose out by not having one of the best drivers on the grid. Not really much more to it.

Yeah I do know were you're coming from but I can't help but think this is a bit of a follow up to the grid being weak, what fight is left in Vettel if it was his decision to leave Ferrari, it's survival of the fittest, the 5th best driver has no fight left in him then he's nearly washed up anyway.

If rumours are true and Russell gets the Mercedes call up in 2021 we may see the emergence of another star, life goes on, F1 goes on for those that want to be in it.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 3:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:

You can't force people to drive if they don't want to, neither can you give in it to what they want if it's unreasonable, Vettel probably can stay in F1 if he wants to, he's not exactly being forced out, I'm not sure about all the angst?


As my post says we lose out by not having one of the best drivers on the grid. Not really much more to it.

Yeah I do know were you're coming from but I can't help but think this is a bit of a follow up to the grid being weak, what fight is left in Vettel if it was his decision to leave Ferrari, it's survival of the fittest, the 5th best driver has no fight left in him then he's nearly washed up anyway.

If rumours are true and Russell gets the Mercedes call up in 2021 we may see the emergence of another star, life goes on, F1 goes on for those that want to be in it.


Bold to assume Vettel is the fifth best driver.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 3:55 pm 
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Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:

You can't force people to drive if they don't want to, neither can you give in it to what they want if it's unreasonable, Vettel probably can stay in F1 if he wants to, he's not exactly being forced out, I'm not sure about all the angst?


As my post says we lose out by not having one of the best drivers on the grid. Not really much more to it.

Yeah I do know were you're coming from but I can't help but think this is a bit of a follow up to the grid being weak, what fight is left in Vettel if it was his decision to leave Ferrari, it's survival of the fittest, the 5th best driver has no fight left in him then he's nearly washed up anyway.

If rumours are true and Russell gets the Mercedes call up in 2021 we may see the emergence of another star, life goes on, F1 goes on for those that want to be in it.


Bold to assume Vettel is the fifth best driver.


And that he has no fire inside him.


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 3:58 pm 
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So I just had an epiphany of a thought… Since all teams are seemingly tied up and no seats available with Alonso rumored to be taking the 2nd Renault Seat,
IDK how but Audi/Porsche popped into my head and I thought how great would it be f they decided to enter F1 and sign Vettel and then get Rosberg out of retirement to have two great drivers make up their driver lineup??!?!?

Of course it's not going to happen, but how great would that be???!?

C'mon V-Dub, make like Nike, pull the cord and Just Do It!

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 4:56 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
So I just had an epiphany of a thought… Since all teams are seemingly tied up and no seats available with Alonso rumored to be taking the 2nd Renault Seat,
IDK how but Audi/Porsche popped into my head and I thought how great would it be f they decided to enter F1 and sign Vettel and then get Rosberg out of retirement to have two great drivers make up their driver lineup??!?!?

Of course it's not going to happen, but how great would that be???!?

C'mon V-Dub, make like Nike, pull the cord and Just Do It!

What a great thought! An all German team, much like Merc in 2010-2012.

I am not sure they would want to open up at this time though, with the recession predicted ahead because of the Covid kerfuffle. Or maybe they would?


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 5:10 pm 
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IDK if those brands are hard hit by this Covid fiasco, but I'd imagine the main VW brand would be hit hardest since that's the bulk of their sales.
I think the higher end luxury and sports car brands like Audi & Porsche might be ok since the customer base for those brands likely has a surplus of cash in hand more so than the more average Joe.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 5:37 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If it was his decision to leave Ferrari then that's partly on him.


Does it matter? We lose out by not having Vettel on the grid.

You can't force people to drive if they don't want to, neither can you give in it to what they want if it's unreasonable, Vettel probably can stay in F1 if he wants to, he's not exactly being forced out, I'm not sure about all the angst?


As my post says we lose out by not having one of the best drivers on the grid. Not really much more to it.

Yeah I do know were you're coming from but I can't help but think this is a bit of a follow up to the grid being weak, what fight is left in Vettel if it was his decision to leave Ferrari, it's survival of the fittest, the 5th best driver has no fight left in him then he's nearly washed up anyway.

If rumours are true and Russell gets the Mercedes call up in 2021 we may see the emergence of another star, life goes on, F1 goes on for those that want to be in it.


Vettel is only 32 and I don't know how you can think he has no fight left? Didn't seem that way to me at all. I also don't see why he would be viewed as washed up. He's still one of the best drivers on the grid. Why on earth would any Formula 1 fan want to lose him? Formula 1 will not be better for his absence.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 11:47 am 
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Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:

You can't force people to drive if they don't want to, neither can you give in it to what they want if it's unreasonable, Vettel probably can stay in F1 if he wants to, he's not exactly being forced out, I'm not sure about all the angst?


As my post says we lose out by not having one of the best drivers on the grid. Not really much more to it.

Yeah I do know were you're coming from but I can't help but think this is a bit of a follow up to the grid being weak, what fight is left in Vettel if it was his decision to leave Ferrari, it's survival of the fittest, the 5th best driver has no fight left in him then he's nearly washed up anyway.

If rumours are true and Russell gets the Mercedes call up in 2021 we may see the emergence of another star, life goes on, F1 goes on for those that want to be in it.


Bold to assume Vettel is the fifth best driver.


Are you saying 5th is too high or too low? I can’t work it out.

Leclerc, Ricciardo have proven to be better. Especially this error prone Vettel that has re-emerged since 2014. Most would place Hamilton and Verstappen ahead as well. That would put him 5th.

But then there is a lot of promise in some young drivers, personally I would place Vettel 3rd-7th on the current grid and if I was a team owner I would choose them in the following order- Hamilton, Verstappen, Ricciardo, Leclerc, Vettel, Russell

Leclerc may go higher but inexperience is his downfall


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 11:55 am 
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Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:

You can't force people to drive if they don't want to, neither can you give in it to what they want if it's unreasonable, Vettel probably can stay in F1 if he wants to, he's not exactly being forced out, I'm not sure about all the angst?


As my post says we lose out by not having one of the best drivers on the grid. Not really much more to it.

Yeah I do know were you're coming from but I can't help but think this is a bit of a follow up to the grid being weak, what fight is left in Vettel if it was his decision to leave Ferrari, it's survival of the fittest, the 5th best driver has no fight left in him then he's nearly washed up anyway.

If rumours are true and Russell gets the Mercedes call up in 2021 we may see the emergence of another star, life goes on, F1 goes on for those that want to be in it.


Bold to assume Vettel is the fifth best driver.

You don't think that Hamilton and Verstappen are better, Ricciardo beat him easily in 2014 whilst Ferrari have clearly prioritised Leclerc over him, obviously it's my opinion but I would say that in no way can it be considered bold.

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 11:56 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:

You can't force people to drive if they don't want to, neither can you give in it to what they want if it's unreasonable, Vettel probably can stay in F1 if he wants to, he's not exactly being forced out, I'm not sure about all the angst?


As my post says we lose out by not having one of the best drivers on the grid. Not really much more to it.

Yeah I do know were you're coming from but I can't help but think this is a bit of a follow up to the grid being weak, what fight is left in Vettel if it was his decision to leave Ferrari, it's survival of the fittest, the 5th best driver has no fight left in him then he's nearly washed up anyway.

If rumours are true and Russell gets the Mercedes call up in 2021 we may see the emergence of another star, life goes on, F1 goes on for those that want to be in it.


Bold to assume Vettel is the fifth best driver.


And that he has no fire inside him.

Yeah I missed out the word if.

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 11:58 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
So I just had an epiphany of a thought… Since all teams are seemingly tied up and no seats available with Alonso rumored to be taking the 2nd Renault Seat,
IDK how but Audi/Porsche popped into my head and I thought how great would it be f they decided to enter F1 and sign Vettel and then get Rosberg out of retirement to have two great drivers make up their driver lineup??!?!?

Of course it's not going to happen, but how great would that be???!?

C'mon V-Dub, make like Nike, pull the cord and Just Do It!

What a great thought! An all German team, much like Merc in 2010-2012.

I am not sure they would want to open up at this time though, with the recession predicted ahead because of the Covid kerfuffle. Or maybe they would?

Plus Rosberg has definitely retired for good.

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 12:07 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Does it matter? We lose out by not having Vettel on the grid.

You can't force people to drive if they don't want to, neither can you give in it to what they want if it's unreasonable, Vettel probably can stay in F1 if he wants to, he's not exactly being forced out, I'm not sure about all the angst?


As my post says we lose out by not having one of the best drivers on the grid. Not really much more to it.

Yeah I do know were you're coming from but I can't help but think this is a bit of a follow up to the grid being weak, what fight is left in Vettel if it was his decision to leave Ferrari, it's survival of the fittest, the 5th best driver has no fight left in him then he's nearly washed up anyway.

If rumours are true and Russell gets the Mercedes call up in 2021 we may see the emergence of another star, life goes on, F1 goes on for those that want to be in it.


Vettel is only 32 and I don't know how you can think he has no fight left? Didn't seem that way to me at all. I also don't see why he would be viewed as washed up. He's still one of the best drivers on the grid. Why on earth would any Formula 1 fan want to lose him? Formula 1 will not be better for his absence.

Yeah I should have put the word if, while the decision to leave Ferrari is somewhat left in secrecy then people will speculate why a driver would make such a decision, if it's a case of I want x amount of money or I want #1 status then I don't care, you price yourself out of F1 like the Hulk did.

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 1:06 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:

You can't force people to drive if they don't want to, neither can you give in it to what they want if it's unreasonable, Vettel probably can stay in F1 if he wants to, he's not exactly being forced out, I'm not sure about all the angst?


As my post says we lose out by not having one of the best drivers on the grid. Not really much more to it.

Yeah I do know were you're coming from but I can't help but think this is a bit of a follow up to the grid being weak, what fight is left in Vettel if it was his decision to leave Ferrari, it's survival of the fittest, the 5th best driver has no fight left in him then he's nearly washed up anyway.

If rumours are true and Russell gets the Mercedes call up in 2021 we may see the emergence of another star, life goes on, F1 goes on for those that want to be in it.


Bold to assume Vettel is the fifth best driver.


Are you saying 5th is too high or too low? I can’t work it out.

Leclerc, Ricciardo have proven to be better. Especially this error prone Vettel that has re-emerged since 2014. Most would place Hamilton and Verstappen ahead as well. That would put him 5th.

But then there is a lot of promise in some young drivers, personally I would place Vettel 3rd-7th on the current grid and if I was a team owner I would choose them in the following order- Hamilton, Verstappen, Ricciardo, Leclerc, Vettel, Russell

Leclerc may go higher but inexperience is his downfall


He's certainly not any lower than fifth anyways. However, I didn't necessarily say fifth is too high or too low. I mean it is very speculative to state outright that Vettel is the fifth best driver, over very little evidence.

To me it's madness to conclude Ricciardo is better than Vettel because of one season. And are we going to say Leclerc is better than Vettel, disregarding the fact that Vettel is clearly not in the best mental state? And Russell?! A guy wins two junior categories is now better than a four time WDC? Why do we always completely disregard form when comparing drivers? Djokovic isn't winning every Grand Slam (excl. French Open) in tennis, yet he is easily the best player for the last five years.

(Let me also add: Vettel being more error prone does not necessarily mean he is driving worse. When you are not in the best car, you must take more risk to get your reward. Vettel had his mistake in Canada not because he is error prone, but because he had to take considerable risk in keeping Hamilton behind.)

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 1:30 pm 
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Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
As my post says we lose out by not having one of the best drivers on the grid. Not really much more to it.

Yeah I do know were you're coming from but I can't help but think this is a bit of a follow up to the grid being weak, what fight is left in Vettel if it was his decision to leave Ferrari, it's survival of the fittest, the 5th best driver has no fight left in him then he's nearly washed up anyway.

If rumours are true and Russell gets the Mercedes call up in 2021 we may see the emergence of another star, life goes on, F1 goes on for those that want to be in it.


Bold to assume Vettel is the fifth best driver.


Are you saying 5th is too high or too low? I can’t work it out.

Leclerc, Ricciardo have proven to be better. Especially this error prone Vettel that has re-emerged since 2014. Most would place Hamilton and Verstappen ahead as well. That would put him 5th.

But then there is a lot of promise in some young drivers, personally I would place Vettel 3rd-7th on the current grid and if I was a team owner I would choose them in the following order- Hamilton, Verstappen, Ricciardo, Leclerc, Vettel, Russell

Leclerc may go higher but inexperience is his downfall


He's certainly not any lower than fifth anyways. However, I didn't necessarily say fifth is too high or too low. I mean it is very speculative to state outright that Vettel is the fifth best driver, over very little evidence.

To me it's madness to conclude Ricciardo is better than Vettel because of one season. And are we going to say Leclerc is better than Vettel, disregarding the fact that Vettel is clearly not in the best mental state? And Russell?! A guy wins two junior categories is now better than a four time WDC? Why do we always completely disregard form when comparing drivers? Djokovic isn't winning every Grand Slam (excl. French Open) in tennis, yet he is easily the best player for the last five years.

(Let me also add: Vettel being more error prone does not necessarily mean he is driving worse. When you are not in the best car, you must take more risk to get your reward. Vettel had his mistake in Canada not because he is error prone, but because he had to take considerable risk in keeping Hamilton behind.)

I don't understand questioning Vettel being the 5th best driver whilst saying he's not in the best mental state, you're kind of admitting he's not been driving well.

Also I would say there's reasonable evidence for this and look how Ferrari themselves have recently treated Vettel, massive pay cut offered?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 2:17 pm 
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Posts: 2625
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:

Bold to assume Vettel is the fifth best driver.


Are you saying 5th is too high or too low? I can’t work it out.

Leclerc, Ricciardo have proven to be better. Especially this error prone Vettel that has re-emerged since 2014. Most would place Hamilton and Verstappen ahead as well. That would put him 5th.

But then there is a lot of promise in some young drivers, personally I would place Vettel 3rd-7th on the current grid and if I was a team owner I would choose them in the following order- Hamilton, Verstappen, Ricciardo, Leclerc, Vettel, Russell

Leclerc may go higher but inexperience is his downfall


He's certainly not any lower than fifth anyways. However, I didn't necessarily say fifth is too high or too low. I mean it is very speculative to state outright that Vettel is the fifth best driver, over very little evidence.

To me it's madness to conclude Ricciardo is better than Vettel because of one season. And are we going to say Leclerc is better than Vettel, disregarding the fact that Vettel is clearly not in the best mental state? And Russell?! A guy wins two junior categories is now better than a four time WDC? Why do we always completely disregard form when comparing drivers? Djokovic isn't winning every Grand Slam (excl. French Open) in tennis, yet he is easily the best player for the last five years.

(Let me also add: Vettel being more error prone does not necessarily mean he is driving worse. When you are not in the best car, you must take more risk to get your reward. Vettel had his mistake in Canada not because he is error prone, but because he had to take considerable risk in keeping Hamilton behind.)

I don't understand questioning Vettel being the 5th best driver whilst saying he's not in the best mental state, you're kind of admitting he's not been driving well.

Also I would say there's reasonable evidence for this and look how Ferrari themselves have recently treated Vettel, massive pay cut offered?


Yes, he's not been driving well the past season or two. That doesn't translate into him being the fifth best driver. I believe he will very quickly reach his high performing levels in the right conditions again.

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 2:26 pm 
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Posts: 34185
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:

Bold to assume Vettel is the fifth best driver.


Are you saying 5th is too high or too low? I can’t work it out.

Leclerc, Ricciardo have proven to be better. Especially this error prone Vettel that has re-emerged since 2014. Most would place Hamilton and Verstappen ahead as well. That would put him 5th.

But then there is a lot of promise in some young drivers, personally I would place Vettel 3rd-7th on the current grid and if I was a team owner I would choose them in the following order- Hamilton, Verstappen, Ricciardo, Leclerc, Vettel, Russell

Leclerc may go higher but inexperience is his downfall


He's certainly not any lower than fifth anyways. However, I didn't necessarily say fifth is too high or too low. I mean it is very speculative to state outright that Vettel is the fifth best driver, over very little evidence.

To me it's madness to conclude Ricciardo is better than Vettel because of one season. And are we going to say Leclerc is better than Vettel, disregarding the fact that Vettel is clearly not in the best mental state? And Russell?! A guy wins two junior categories is now better than a four time WDC? Why do we always completely disregard form when comparing drivers? Djokovic isn't winning every Grand Slam (excl. French Open) in tennis, yet he is easily the best player for the last five years.

(Let me also add: Vettel being more error prone does not necessarily mean he is driving worse. When you are not in the best car, you must take more risk to get your reward. Vettel had his mistake in Canada not because he is error prone, but because he had to take considerable risk in keeping Hamilton behind.)

I don't understand questioning Vettel being the 5th best driver whilst saying he's not in the best mental state, you're kind of admitting he's not been driving well.

Also I would say there's reasonable evidence for this and look how Ferrari themselves have recently treated Vettel, massive pay cut offered?


Yes, he's not been driving well the past season or two. That doesn't translate into him being the fifth best driver. I believe he will very quickly reach his high performing levels in the right conditions again.

Surely that's how you judge drivers?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 2:56 pm 
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Posts: 3511
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

As my post says we lose out by not having one of the best drivers on the grid. Not really much more to it.

Yeah I do know were you're coming from but I can't help but think this is a bit of a follow up to the grid being weak, what fight is left in Vettel if it was his decision to leave Ferrari, it's survival of the fittest, the 5th best driver has no fight left in him then he's nearly washed up anyway.

If rumours are true and Russell gets the Mercedes call up in 2021 we may see the emergence of another star, life goes on, F1 goes on for those that want to be in it.


Bold to assume Vettel is the fifth best driver.


Are you saying 5th is too high or too low? I can’t work it out.

Leclerc, Ricciardo have proven to be better. Especially this error prone Vettel that has re-emerged since 2014. Most would place Hamilton and Verstappen ahead as well. That would put him 5th.

But then there is a lot of promise in some young drivers, personally I would place Vettel 3rd-7th on the current grid and if I was a team owner I would choose them in the following order- Hamilton, Verstappen, Ricciardo, Leclerc, Vettel, Russell

Leclerc may go higher but inexperience is his downfall


He's certainly not any lower than fifth anyways. However, I didn't necessarily say fifth is too high or too low. I mean it is very speculative to state outright that Vettel is the fifth best driver, over very little evidence.

To me it's madness to conclude Ricciardo is better than Vettel because of one season. And are we going to say Leclerc is better than Vettel, disregarding the fact that Vettel is clearly not in the best mental state? And Russell?! A guy wins two junior categories is now better than a four time WDC? Why do we always completely disregard form when comparing drivers? Djokovic isn't winning every Grand Slam (excl. French Open) in tennis, yet he is easily the best player for the last five years.

(Let me also add: Vettel being more error prone does not necessarily mean he is driving worse. When you are not in the best car, you must take more risk to get your reward. Vettel had his mistake in Canada not because he is error prone, but because he had to take considerable risk in keeping Hamilton behind.)


That was a mistake in Canada by Vettel just like Monza was. Vettel has had way too many mistakes in the last 3 seasons, I agree with others I would put Leclerc, Verstappen, Hamilton and Ricciardo ahead of Vettel.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 3:20 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Are you saying 5th is too high or too low? I can’t work it out.

Leclerc, Ricciardo have proven to be better. Especially this error prone Vettel that has re-emerged since 2014. Most would place Hamilton and Verstappen ahead as well. That would put him 5th.

But then there is a lot of promise in some young drivers, personally I would place Vettel 3rd-7th on the current grid and if I was a team owner I would choose them in the following order- Hamilton, Verstappen, Ricciardo, Leclerc, Vettel, Russell

Leclerc may go higher but inexperience is his downfall


He's certainly not any lower than fifth anyways. However, I didn't necessarily say fifth is too high or too low. I mean it is very speculative to state outright that Vettel is the fifth best driver, over very little evidence.

To me it's madness to conclude Ricciardo is better than Vettel because of one season. And are we going to say Leclerc is better than Vettel, disregarding the fact that Vettel is clearly not in the best mental state? And Russell?! A guy wins two junior categories is now better than a four time WDC? Why do we always completely disregard form when comparing drivers? Djokovic isn't winning every Grand Slam (excl. French Open) in tennis, yet he is easily the best player for the last five years.

(Let me also add: Vettel being more error prone does not necessarily mean he is driving worse. When you are not in the best car, you must take more risk to get your reward. Vettel had his mistake in Canada not because he is error prone, but because he had to take considerable risk in keeping Hamilton behind.)

I don't understand questioning Vettel being the 5th best driver whilst saying he's not in the best mental state, you're kind of admitting he's not been driving well.

Also I would say there's reasonable evidence for this and look how Ferrari themselves have recently treated Vettel, massive pay cut offered?


Yes, he's not been driving well the past season or two. That doesn't translate into him being the fifth best driver. I believe he will very quickly reach his high performing levels in the right conditions again.

Surely that's how you judge drivers?


I judge drivers' form based on this. I rate a driver's overall talent over a much longer period.

And as I mentioned, I'm not stating that he isn't outright the fifth best driver. I just don't think we can claim that he is the fifth best driver.

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 8:58 am 
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I had Russell behind Vettel, but in 10 years time we could look back in 2020 and say Vettel was probably the 6-7th best driver. I had him at 5th at the moment.

Ricciardo being better isn’t just off that season, it’s also the huge volume of errors that Vettel has made the last years and how close Ricciardo was to Verstappen. I would take Ricciardo any day.


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 9:05 am 
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You seem to be confusing form and career.. form is very short term, in most sports it’s weeks to months.

Dictionary definition - the state of a sports player or team with regard to their current standard of play.


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 10:40 am 
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I actually think there is a third "metric" which is the level the driver is currently.

As you say form is for the very recent past, perhaps only half a season or so. Then you can assess how good a drivers career has been.

But what I think Poker means when he says Vettel is the 5th best driver on the grid is that is the level you would expect to see Vettel at the moment based on his career has a whole but putting a lot more emphasis on recent seasons.

For example if the twenty drivers all drove the same car in 2020 and had the same level of luck you would expect Vettel to be beaten by Verstappen, Ricciardo, Hamilton and Leclerc but beat everybody else.

But if you were doing a greatest of all time list you would place Vettel ahead of all but Hamilton as that would be based on his whole career.


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 12:11 pm 
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Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
He's certainly not any lower than fifth anyways. However, I didn't necessarily say fifth is too high or too low. I mean it is very speculative to state outright that Vettel is the fifth best driver, over very little evidence.

To me it's madness to conclude Ricciardo is better than Vettel because of one season. And are we going to say Leclerc is better than Vettel, disregarding the fact that Vettel is clearly not in the best mental state? And Russell?! A guy wins two junior categories is now better than a four time WDC? Why do we always completely disregard form when comparing drivers? Djokovic isn't winning every Grand Slam (excl. French Open) in tennis, yet he is easily the best player for the last five years.

(Let me also add: Vettel being more error prone does not necessarily mean he is driving worse. When you are not in the best car, you must take more risk to get your reward. Vettel had his mistake in Canada not because he is error prone, but because he had to take considerable risk in keeping Hamilton behind.)

I don't understand questioning Vettel being the 5th best driver whilst saying he's not in the best mental state, you're kind of admitting he's not been driving well.

Also I would say there's reasonable evidence for this and look how Ferrari themselves have recently treated Vettel, massive pay cut offered?


Yes, he's not been driving well the past season or two. That doesn't translate into him being the fifth best driver. I believe he will very quickly reach his high performing levels in the right conditions again.

Surely that's how you judge drivers?


I judge drivers' form based on this. I rate a driver's overall talent over a much longer period.

And as I mentioned, I'm not stating that he isn't outright the fifth best driver. I just don't think we can claim that he is the fifth best driver.

In 2011 Hamilton still had all the talent in the world but the mistakes he made, made him a liability and his stock dropped accordingly and that was just one year, it's been more than 1 year for Vettel.

In respect to Vettel you can't really make an argument for his talent level being higher than 5th, yes you can go back 7 years when he was winning all around him but were was the likes of Verstappen, Leclerc and Ricciardo?

Vettel is still a very good driver but he's now surrounded by stronger drivers and he perhaps can't command the same status and money that he once did?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Last edited by pokerman on Sat May 23, 2020 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 12:21 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I actually think there is a third "metric" which is the level the driver is currently.

As you say form is for the very recent past, perhaps only half a season or so. Then you can assess how good a drivers career has been.

But what I think Poker means when he says Vettel is the 5th best driver on the grid is that is the level you would expect to see Vettel at the moment based on his career has a whole but putting a lot more emphasis on recent seasons.

For example if the twenty drivers all drove the same car in 2020 and had the same level of luck you would expect Vettel to be beaten by Verstappen, Ricciardo, Hamilton and Leclerc but beat everybody else.

But if you were doing a greatest of all time list you would place Vettel ahead of all but Hamilton as that would be based on his whole career.

Yes I'm rating on the here and now but even without the mistakes Vettel has been making there is also a performance element which is longer term than just the past couple of years which also has Vettel down in 5th.

How you rate a driver's career I guess is a bit different were you have achievement and how a driver measures up against his peers, it's how much you want to weight one against the other?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 2:43 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I actually think there is a third "metric" which is the level the driver is currently.

As you say form is for the very recent past, perhaps only half a season or so. Then you can assess how good a drivers career has been.

But what I think Poker means when he says Vettel is the 5th best driver on the grid is that is the level you would expect to see Vettel at the moment based on his career has a whole but putting a lot more emphasis on recent seasons.

For example if the twenty drivers all drove the same car in 2020 and had the same level of luck you would expect Vettel to be beaten by Verstappen, Ricciardo, Hamilton and Leclerc but beat everybody else.

But if you were doing a greatest of all time list you would place Vettel ahead of all but Hamilton as that would be based on his whole career.

Yes I'm rating on the here and now but even without the mistakes Vettel has been making there is also a performance element which is longer term than just the past couple of years which also has Vettel down in 5th.

How you rate a driver's career I guess is a bit different were you have achievement and how a driver measures up against his peers, it's how much you want to weight one against the other?


I think you take a view on what a driver has done and take a view on it. It's more about sustained performance. For example driver A could hit the same performance peak as driver B but driver B was able to hold that level for 8 years whilst driver A was only at that level for three. You would rate driver B higher when both their careers are judged.


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 9:38 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I actually think there is a third "metric" which is the level the driver is currently.

As you say form is for the very recent past, perhaps only half a season or so. Then you can assess how good a drivers career has been.

But what I think Poker means when he says Vettel is the 5th best driver on the grid is that is the level you would expect to see Vettel at the moment based on his career has a whole but putting a lot more emphasis on recent seasons.

For example if the twenty drivers all drove the same car in 2020 and had the same level of luck you would expect Vettel to be beaten by Verstappen, Ricciardo, Hamilton and Leclerc but beat everybody else.

But if you were doing a greatest of all time list you would place Vettel ahead of all but Hamilton as that would be based on his whole career.

Yes I'm rating on the here and now but even without the mistakes Vettel has been making there is also a performance element which is longer term than just the past couple of years which also has Vettel down in 5th.

How you rate a driver's career I guess is a bit different were you have achievement and how a driver measures up against his peers, it's how much you want to weight one against the other?


I think you take a view on what a driver has done and take a view on it. It's more about sustained performance. For example driver A could hit the same performance peak as driver B but driver B was able to hold that level for 8 years whilst driver A was only at that level for three. You would rate driver B higher when both their careers are judged.

I take more a view that drivers have a certain performance level, different cirumstances may make us either over rate or under rate them.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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