Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by UnlikeUday »

I doubt Ferrari would want to go for Ricciardo. Ricciardo is more than capable of matching or beating Leclerc in the Ferrari. Sainz is somewhat an unknown when it comes to driving fora top team.

Luckily for Vettel, this pandemic will help him sort out his priorities.
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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by UnlikeUday »

Some options here are interesting:

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by UnlikeUday »

As per Antonio, Sainz is quite close to getting signed & being announced as 2021 driver this week.

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

UnlikeUday wrote:I doubt Ferrari would want to go for Ricciardo. Ricciardo is more than capable of matching or beating Leclerc in the Ferrari. Sainz is somewhat an unknown when it comes to driving fora top team.

Luckily for Vettel, this pandemic will help him sort out his priorities.
Hang on… So he goes toe to toe with Verstappen and puts up near identical numbers, then goes to Renault a d drives what was a less than spectacular machine for a season, then moves to McLaren and does exceedingly well to finish best of the rest in a much improved, yet lesser car, and he's unproven where exactly??!?

Verstappen is doing well in one of the best cars, and teams quite frankly and he's won just a handful of races to date. I think Sainz has proven a great deal, never more so than 2019 with McLaren and for Ferrari to go with such a young lineup speaks volumes about what they see in him, and they have access to hard technical data.

That said, I think Ricciardo would have been a brilliant choice, but I'm not so sure he's any better than Sainz, and if so, not by much if any, and I wouldn't be surprised if they cancelled out one another if they went head to head. Where Ricciardo is superior is perhaps in his late braking ability when he maintains control, but Sainz is seemingly better at setting up overtakes in areas of track where it's less common, and by default, more difficult to give back the position.And neither are really prone to unforced errors (outside Ricciardo's out of control dive bombs which have subsided substantially these days) so I can see them being rated pretty equally.
HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: LECLERC :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:I doubt Ferrari would want to go for Ricciardo. Ricciardo is more than capable of matching or beating Leclerc in the Ferrari. Sainz is somewhat an unknown when it comes to driving fora top team.

Luckily for Vettel, this pandemic will help him sort out his priorities.
Hang on… So he goes toe to toe with Verstappen and puts up near identical numbers, then goes to Renault a d drives what was a less than spectacular machine for a season, then moves to McLaren and does exceedingly well to finish best of the rest in a much improved, yet lesser car, and he's unproven where exactly??!?

Verstappen is doing well in one of the best cars, and teams quite frankly and he's won just a handful of races to date. I think Sainz has proven a great deal, never more so than 2019 with McLaren and for Ferrari to go with such a young lineup speaks volumes about what they see in him, and they have access to hard technical data.

That said, I think Ricciardo would have been a brilliant choice, but I'm not so sure he's any better than Sainz, and if so, not by much if any, and I wouldn't be surprised if they cancelled out one another if they went head to head. Where Ricciardo is superior is perhaps in his late braking ability when he maintains control, but Sainz is seemingly better at setting up overtakes in areas of track where it's less common, and by default, more difficult to give back the position.And neither are really prone to unforced errors (outside Ricciardo's out of control dive bombs which have subsided substantially these days) so I can see them being rated pretty equally.
Be fair. He drove against a child Verstappen with just one year of car racing under his belt. Nothing can really be read into that comparison. He thrashed Kvyat but then so did Gasly. He was shaded by Hulkenberg. He was matched by rookie Norris.

The only known quantity he has gone up against is Hulkenberg and he was beaten. In fact we can use the Hulkenberg comparison to compare him to Ricciardo and it isn't favourable.

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by j man »

Woohoo! Some actual F1 news to talk about! It actually reminded me that in a parallel 2020 with no Covid-19 the season would be in full swing right now with a championship pecking order taking shape and we'd be gearing up for Monaco around now.

Anyway, I don't find this news particularly surprising. The championship was up for grabs in 2017 and 2018 but he didn't deliver what Ferrari paid him the megabucks to do, and now Leclerc has usurped him as the number 1 driver. Sadly with those two things in mind I think we have to look upon Vettel's time at Ferrari as a failure. Not that I would extend that sentiment to his career as a whole; I'm not in the "he got 4 lucky championships by having the best car" camp, he was excellent in that period.

I wouldn't be surprised if he retires from the sport now. 4 championships, 53 wins and 57 poles are an impressive haul that he can look back proudly on and I don't think there's anything more to be gained by running around in the midfield. The only thing I can think of is if he thinks he can claw back some of his legacy by emulating his Toro Rosso days and putting a midfield car where it shouldn't be. Whilst the opportunity for that sort of thing will not be the same in 2021 as it was in 2008, I've no doubt he'd do a great job for any of the midfield teams. Where the occasional podium used to be the mark of an impressive midfield driver, now it's the ability to consistently finish in the points among the tightest midfield I can recall and I've no doubt Vettel can pull that off.

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by Zazu »

Italian press are reporting the story like Sainz is already a done deal

I think Vettel would be quite happy driving in the midfield. Like Kimi, has a family back home, world title and just happy to enjoy racing an F1 car

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

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bourbon19 wrote:It has become increasingly clear that Ferrari is incapable of putting together a winning car. Charles won 2 races last year and that is held up as the brilliant standard for Ferrari. I have no regrets about Seb leaving the Italian team behind. McLaren is due for a rise, I hope he pops over there if he actually leaves.

On the other hand, I would not be at all shocked if Vettel retires. And that sad part about that is, if he did, I doubt he'd ever be persuaded to return. And why should he? 4 time world champion is nothing to sniff at. I'm good whatever he decides, though of course, I hope he continues.
Yes, Ferrari have gone one full season (2019) without producing a car capable of the title.

Short memory, the 2018 Ferrari won 6 races and should have won nearly as many again if not for mainly driver errors on Vettels part, bad luck and team errors.

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by Johnson »

I would like to see Vettel replace Bottas and Ricciardo replace Vettel. Then Bottas replace Ricciardo.

That would make some very interesting battles.

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by Teddy007 »

bourbon19 wrote:It has become increasingly clear that Ferrari is incapable of putting together a winning car. Charles won 2 races last year and that is held up as the brilliant standard for Ferrari. I have no regrets about Seb leaving the Italian team behind. McLaren is due for a rise, I hope he pops over there if he actually leaves.

On the other hand, I would not be at all shocked if Vettel retires. And that sad part about that is, if he did, I doubt he'd ever be persuaded to return. And why should he? 4 time world champion is nothing to sniff at. I'm good whatever he decides, though of course, I hope he continues.
Could have won more if they didn't have reliability/mistakes (even Charles made a few). Add together the chances Sebastian had and blew them. They've had a race winning car for a few years now and walked away with nothing. For Seb, he has made more mistakes and some highly questionable.

I said this would happen if his rookie team mate put up a fight that he probably wouldn't stick around. No driver is bigger than Ferrari. With Lewis Hamilton in the Merc, taking title after title. It must have hurt him and Ferrari. I find it so weird that people put all the blame on to Ferrari, what you actually mean is "Ferrari is incapable of putting together a dominating car" and not winning car. Merc didn't walk away with the title like they did back in Lewis/Nico days where they would qualify miles ahead of the field and be 30 seconds ahead in no time. We didn't see the Merc drivers trip over each other for the other teams to beat them.

We saw 3 teams capable of winning last season which put more pressure on Vettel and Ferrari.

The self implosion of Vettel has occurred. We saw it when Ric was winning 3 races (im sure it was 3) compared to Vettels none. What changed? Vettel was no longer number 1 above all else. He left. Like he has done at Ferrari.

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by Charles LeBrad »

Ok, my wild speculative prediction
* Sainz > Ferrari
* Ricciardo > Mclaren
* Hamilton > Aston Martin with Toto
* Vettel > Mercedes
* Gasly > Renault
* Someone new > Toro Rosso

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by pokerman »

bourbon19 wrote:It has become increasingly clear that Ferrari is incapable of putting together a winning car. Charles won 2 races last year and that is held up as the brilliant standard for Ferrari. I have no regrets about Seb leaving the Italian team behind. McLaren is due for a rise, I hope he pops over there if he actually leaves.

On the other hand, I would not be at all shocked if Vettel retires. And that sad part about that is, if he did, I doubt he'd ever be persuaded to return. And why should he? 4 time world champion is nothing to sniff at. I'm good whatever he decides, though of course, I hope he continues.
There wasn't that much wrong with the Ferrari cars in 2017 and 2018, we seem to be totally forgetting all of Vettel's mistakes.
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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by pokerman »

Blake wrote:One name I saw tossed out for Seb's seat was Sainz...supposedly there has been talk of that matchup recently.
That's being mooted as being almost confirmed.
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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by pokerman »

pendulumeffect wrote:It's a bit sad that he had the car to win the WDC in 2017 and 2018 but threw it away thanks to mistakes by both him and the team. He really should have accepted the pay cut unless he had an offer at Mercedes. He could win races at other teams but to win a championship again at a team other than the big three is going to require the new rules to shake things up dramatically.

I hope Daniel Ricciardo gets the seat in the mean time.
No I'm hearing now that he was expected to play a #2 role which was not unexpectedly accepable for Vettel, that of course immediately rules out the likes of Ricciardo and we see Sainz now being close to being confirmed.
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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:One name I saw tossed out for Seb's seat was Sainz...supposedly there has been talk of that matchup recently.
Sainz seems to have a lot of buzz about him but I don't really know why you would take Sainz over Ricciardo. We can compare them directly through Hulkenberg and Ricciardo clearly comes out better.
Read my post about Ferrari wanting a #2 driver, the Hulk actually beat Sainz but apparently it's Sainz that they want.
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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by pokerman »

Covalent wrote:Speaking as a Vettel supporter I think this could be a good time for him to retire. If and when he leaves Ferrari it's very unlikely he'll fight for a championship again and I just don't see him as a driver that wants to be there just to make up the numbers. That said I wouldn't mind seeing him resume his career at e.g. McLaren.
If Sainz goes to Ferrari then his replacement at Mclaren I would think will be either Vettel or Ricciardo.
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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by pokerman »

Alex53 wrote:It's not surprise that the Ferrari-Vettel relationship has soured. There were signs of it, both sides feeling that they were let down by the other, Ferrari seeming to have a greater affinity for Leclerc. So no surprise there.

That said, the fact that this puts Vettel in an Alonso-like position is symptomatic of how much the extended dominance of one team hurts the sport. Some of the best drivers in F1's history are leaving or languishing in teams that simply can't challenge.
Yeah it was all down to team dominance in 2017 and 2018 and Vettel did little wrong, really?
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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:I think Sergio Perez could be a perfect #2 driver if he was willing to accept that role, which I don’t think he is. Perez seems too competitive.
I think Leclerc would destroy him in qualifying.
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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by pokerman »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:I doubt Ferrari would want to go for Ricciardo. Ricciardo is more than capable of matching or beating Leclerc in the Ferrari. Sainz is somewhat an unknown when it comes to driving fora top team.

Luckily for Vettel, this pandemic will help him sort out his priorities.
Hang on… So he goes toe to toe with Verstappen and puts up near identical numbers, then goes to Renault a d drives what was a less than spectacular machine for a season, then moves to McLaren and does exceedingly well to finish best of the rest in a much improved, yet lesser car, and he's unproven where exactly??!?

Verstappen is doing well in one of the best cars, and teams quite frankly and he's won just a handful of races to date. I think Sainz has proven a great deal, never more so than 2019 with McLaren and for Ferrari to go with such a young lineup speaks volumes about what they see in him, and they have access to hard technical data.

That said, I think Ricciardo would have been a brilliant choice, but I'm not so sure he's any better than Sainz, and if so, not by much if any, and I wouldn't be surprised if they cancelled out one another if they went head to head. Where Ricciardo is superior is perhaps in his late braking ability when he maintains control, but Sainz is seemingly better at setting up overtakes in areas of track where it's less common, and by default, more difficult to give back the position.And neither are really prone to unforced errors (outside Ricciardo's out of control dive bombs which have subsided substantially these days) so I can see them being rated pretty equally.
That was Verstappen's second season in car racing, Sainz was vastly more experienced, as for the comparison with Ricciardo, Sainz got beat by the Hulk who then got beat by Ricciardo, also let's not forget that Renault basically sacked Sainz.
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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by Charles LeBrad »

Found this comparison interesting

Image
Source: Reddit

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by oz_karter »

I could see Sainz getting the seat over Ricciardo.

But not because of better potential or performance, simply because Ferrari don't have two alphas in a team. Ricciardo is not a number 2 driver (yet).

While I would love to see Ricciardo at Ferrari and back in the top group of cars, McLaren also look like a good proposition from next year with big improvements in past years and Mercedes engines waiting.

It could get even more interesting if Mercedes drop their team as is the ongoing rumour...

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by -K- »

Bottas would potentially have been a masterstroke. Proven #2 and him moving on might upset the balance at Merc and end Hamilton’s winning streak.

I’d like to see Ricciardo in there though. His time is more limited and I like the Sainz/Norris double act.

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by Invade »

I'm quite sure Ferrari have little interest in someone as competitive as Ricciardo after Leclerc showed he had the beating of Vettel in 2019.

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by bourbon19 »

Johnson wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:It has become increasingly clear that Ferrari is incapable of putting together a winning car. Charles won 2 races last year and that is held up as the brilliant standard for Ferrari. I have no regrets about Seb leaving the Italian team behind. McLaren is due for a rise, I hope he pops over there if he actually leaves.

On the other hand, I would not be at all shocked if Vettel retires. And that sad part about that is, if he did, I doubt he'd ever be persuaded to return. And why should he? 4 time world champion is nothing to sniff at. I'm good whatever he decides, though of course, I hope he continues.
Yes, Ferrari have gone one full season (2019) without producing a car capable of the title.

Short memory, the 2018 Ferrari won 6 races and should have won nearly as many again if not for mainly driver errors on Vettels part, bad luck and team errors.
pokerman wrote:There wasn't that much wrong with the Ferrari cars in 2017 and 2018, we seem to be totally forgetting all of Vettel's mistakes.
Bad luck, team errors and driver mistakes are a part of F1. Let's face it, when you are a champion nobody remembers your errors, the bad luck of the team or your car troubles. That only happens when you lose. In any case....that's racing.

Anyway, I don't want to have a long discussion on the topic. I don't really mind if people blame Seb and hold Ferrari less blameworthy than I do. In the end, I dig watching Seb race - always have. But if he leaves, he will leave his fans with some kick memories. 2008, 2010-2013 were awesome fun. I would that every year was like 2010, whoever the winner.

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by iano »

The personality of Ricciardo can be a great team asset, but may also be more threatening to Leclerc. The Ferrari long term commitment is to Leclerc, so it could be Leclerc who gets the final say.

Interestingly it feels like Verstappen is really hoping he does not have to compete with Ricciardo in a Ferrari.
Last edited by iano on Wed May 13, 2020 6:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by Option or Prime »

This article is a pretty complete history of Vettel at Ferrari. When strung together you realise there was a history of slip ups.

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by Siao7 »

Charles LeBrad wrote:Found this comparison interesting

Image
Source: Reddit
That's true, but Alonso had to race some donkeys too, Seb had at times the fastest car on the track. So I'd say take it with a tiny pinch of salt

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by kleefton »

pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:Speaking as a Vettel supporter I think this could be a good time for him to retire. If and when he leaves Ferrari it's very unlikely he'll fight for a championship again and I just don't see him as a driver that wants to be there just to make up the numbers. That said I wouldn't mind seeing him resume his career at e.g. McLaren.
If Sainz goes to Ferrari then his replacement at Mclaren I would think will be either Vettel or Ricciardo.
I am almost certain Vettel will be at Mclaren now. I think those 2 moves might be interconnected.

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by pendulumeffect »

Yeah I think Vettel to McLaren makes sense with them having a German engine next year, and then Vettel has a route into Mercedes should Lewis leave (unlikely for a while). I could see Vettel and Norris getting on well (probably).

I hoped Ricciardo would go to Ferrari but I think Sainz deserves a crack at the red seat having been best of the rest last year. Being number 2 at Ferrari is better than being number one at a team not fast enough to win and will be a good step up for him.

Any driver being forced to accept a number 2 role just needs to out qualify their teammate for a few races in a row and then the role of number 2 is soon forgotten by the management. I think it is a stupid term just to keep the other driver happy. It is basically asking to drive slower which does not make any sense.

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by jimmyj »

I too think Seb will retire. I think his ego is too big to take a ride with a team that isn't top tier. I don't quite understand why Sainz is so desired, I like him but am not sure he's the man. I would love to see Danny Ric and Charles driving for Ferrari, it would be exciting! But they would split the points between them and I could see the dreaded team orders come into play. The Alonso angle is interesting also, imagine!

This certainly is going to be interesting.

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by Asphalt_World »

Sainz would be an interesting choice. Whilst I rate him highly, it has to be said that newcomers like Lando and Russel showed themselves to look pretty damn good last year. Charles is clearly good so Ferrari don't have to pay mega bucks for one of the higher paid drivers so really they have quite a choice I think. Ricciardo would also be interesting.
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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

I think sainz may be decent for a number two driver, But I think he is very weak in qualifying. Being tied with a rookie in your 5th season isn't great if I'm honest. And I think that during the races, Both Noris and Sainz possibly look very promising because of how much of an improvement the Renault engine seems to be with the car than the Honda the year before. And beating a rookie doesn't really prove that much.

He was no doubt solid last year, but other than a decent rookie season, I think all of Sainz's other seasons before last have been inconsistent and underwhelming, especially 2017. I'm not convinced Ferrari will keep him that long myself - if he's the one to be against Leclerc. Still think If they are wanting a number two driver, Bottas may be a better choice. Although based on last year, I'd say Bottas could have possibly matched or beaten Leclerc in the same team, but I expect Leclerc to keep improving.

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by Johnson »

bourbon19 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:It has become increasingly clear that Ferrari is incapable of putting together a winning car. Charles won 2 races last year and that is held up as the brilliant standard for Ferrari. I have no regrets about Seb leaving the Italian team behind. McLaren is due for a rise, I hope he pops over there if he actually leaves.

On the other hand, I would not be at all shocked if Vettel retires. And that sad part about that is, if he did, I doubt he'd ever be persuaded to return. And why should he? 4 time world champion is nothing to sniff at. I'm good whatever he decides, though of course, I hope he continues.
Yes, Ferrari have gone one full season (2019) without producing a car capable of the title.

Short memory, the 2018 Ferrari won 6 races and should have won nearly as many again if not for mainly driver errors on Vettels part, bad luck and team errors.
pokerman wrote:There wasn't that much wrong with the Ferrari cars in 2017 and 2018, we seem to be totally forgetting all of Vettel's mistakes.
Bad luck, team errors and driver mistakes are a part of F1. Let's face it, when you are a champion nobody remembers your errors, the bad luck of the team or your car troubles. That only happens when you lose. In any case....that's racing.

Anyway, I don't want to have a long discussion on the topic. I don't really mind if people blame Seb and hold Ferrari less blameworthy than I do. In the end, I dig watching Seb race - always have. But if he leaves, he will leave his fans with some kick memories. 2008, 2010-2013 were awesome fun. I would that every year was like 2010, whoever the winner.
I don’t agree with that, Jacques Villeneuve title and Vettels first are widely known and reported as a driver still winning the title despite a lot of errors. Everybody remembers them.

If Vettel somehow had won the title in 2018, making 6-7 major driving errors it would have gone down as the most error strewn title in F1 history. People don’t forget things like that. He only had 3-4 in 2010 and gets roasted for that still today.

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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by Fiki »

I'm a bit surprised Sainz would accept the number 2 role, but perhaps he sees possibilities I don't. Good luck to him though!

My feeling was that Ricciardo was going to learn to speak Italian. Clearly CoViD-19 is playing havoc with me. :)
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Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by Siao7 »

Fiki wrote:I'm a bit surprised Sainz would accept the number 2 role, but perhaps he sees possibilities I don't. Good luck to him though!

My feeling was that Ricciardo was going to learn to speak Italian. Clearly CoViD-19 is playing havoc with me. :)
I thought he does speak Italian, isn't he part Italian or something?


He clearly demonstrated it to Max in the past though:

https://www.facebook.com/F1trollsandnew ... 553098666/

(It is a joke of course!)

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UnlikeUday
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Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by UnlikeUday »

Read Vettel has agreed or will agree a 1 year deal with McLaren!
https://www.wheels24.co.za/FormulaOne/b ... i-20200513
Feel The Fourth

nabby81
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Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:25 pm

Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by nabby81 »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52627900

Sainz to Ferrari
Riccardio to Mclaren

BMWSauber84
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Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Vettel supposedly turned down a McLaren offer. It's Mercedes or retirement for him allegedly.

f1guyus
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 2:23 pm

Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by f1guyus »

Put simply, Ferrari thought they were getting Schumacher Two and they didn’t. The absence of Todt and Brawn didn’t help.

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TedStriker
Posts: 361
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:39 pm

Re: Sebastian Vettel to leave Ferrari at end of season

Post by TedStriker »

BMWSauber84 wrote:Vettel supposedly turned down a McLaren offer. It's Mercedes or retirement for him allegedly.
Mercedes were never going to take him, even if Hamilton had for some reason left they'd have chosen someone else - someone younger and cheaper. And let's be honest everyone would have wanted the seat.

For us fans though it would have been fantastic to see Lewis and Seb thrash it out in identical machinery. It would have probably answered a lot of questions about their multiple championships in largely dominant cars.

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