Silly Season 2021

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mikeyg123
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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by mikeyg123 »

Surely at this point we have to conclude that Red Bull are at least trying to do a deal with Perez? If they were just going to resign Albon they would have announced it already.

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Invade
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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by Invade »

UnlikeUday wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:13 am
Tsunoda confirmed at AT.

https://www.scuderiaalphatauri.com/en/t ... auri-2021/

Excited to see him on the grid too,
He was one of the most exciting racers to watch in Formula 2 this season. Gasly will be a good benchmark for Tsunoda, but I hope he can find his feet quickly. I'm not quite sure how good Tsunoda is, but he definitely made a fan out of me this year.

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by DOLOMITE »

Invade wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:00 am
UnlikeUday wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:13 am
Tsunoda confirmed at AT.

https://www.scuderiaalphatauri.com/en/t ... auri-2021/

Excited to see him on the grid too,
He was one of the most exciting racers to watch in Formula 2 this season. Gasly will be a good benchmark for Tsunoda, but I hope he can find his feet quickly. I'm not quite sure how good Tsunoda is, but he definitely made a fan out of me this year.
Agreed. I didn't watch enough F2 this year but from what I did see, he stood out as the one still with potential, the other main contenders I felt we've seen all they have. Bit concerned the F1 jump has come a year too early, but with the RBR driver program it doesn't surprise me.
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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by j man »

I agree on Tsunoda, I think he's the driver with the most potential from this year's F2 field. He took a few races to get settled but he ended the season as the standout driver and wasn't far from winning the championship in the end. In my opinion he'd have little to gain from another year in F2, he's ready for the step up now.

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by JN23 »

Don’t know if people read much into this but saw the other week that Tsunoda scored more points than anyone in feature races this year.

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by UnlikeUday »

Red Bull are most likely to announce their 2nd driver tomorrow!
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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by overgeared »

If they do that and I'm Toto, Hamilton takes another paycut.

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by pokerman »

JN23 wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:09 pm
Don’t know if people read much into this but saw the other week that Tsunoda scored more points than anyone in feature races this year.
I think it underlines that he was the best driver in the series especially if you consider that he was also the least experienced driver in the series, he could have won the title.

I think you've always got to be impressed more by drivers who can hit the ground running more so than drivers who need to build up experience before they can be competitive, as rookies Schumacher and Ilott finished 12th and 11th in F2, Mazepin finished 18th.
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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by overgeared »

Well Hamilton better sign whatever is put in front of him.

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-auto ... R3MX0n3W0Q

If Red Bull signs someone there will be nowhere for him to go, except Williams.

The music is about to stop, and Hamilton won't have a seat.

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by Jenson's Understeer »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:33 pm
JN23 wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:09 pm
Don’t know if people read much into this but saw the other week that Tsunoda scored more points than anyone in feature races this year.
I think it underlines that he was the best driver in the series especially if you consider that he was also the least experienced driver in the series, he could have won the title.

I think you've always got to be impressed more by drivers who can hit the ground running more so than drivers who need to build up experience before they can be competitive, as rookies Schumacher and Ilott finished 12th and 11th in F2, Mazepin finished 18th.
Agreed. Ultimately it was his inexperience that cost him the title. Silly contact with his teammate in Austria and then with Ticktum at Mugello gave him two weekends where he scored no points. Considering Schumacher and Ilott scored at every weekend, that he both outscored them on Saturdays and still came close to the title is all the more impressive.
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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by Exediron »

I feel that Tsudona -- and possibly Lundgaard, although he was very inconsistent -- demonstrated himself as the one with the most outright potential in F2 this past season. His pace when he was on it was clearly class-leading; I don't recall any of the other drivers (except, again, possibly Lundgaard) having a weekend where they were just clearly the quickest in race conditions, but there were several for Tsunoda.

I think he belongs in F1, and I'll be quite interested to see how he does. I hope Red Bull doesn't rush him and ruin his career.
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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by mikeyg123 »

https://www.speedweek.com/formel1/news/ ... Perez.html

This publication is owned by Red Bull. Make of that what you will.

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by JN23 »

Looks like there might be more than one announcement tomorrow: https://twitter.com/mercedesamgf1/statu ... 65440?s=21

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by mikeyg123 »

JN23 wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:17 pm
Looks like there might be more than one announcement tomorrow: https://twitter.com/mercedesamgf1/statu ... 65440?s=21
Wow I wonder how he will get on replacing Toto as team boss?

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by JN23 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:29 pm
JN23 wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:17 pm
Looks like there might be more than one announcement tomorrow: https://twitter.com/mercedesamgf1/statu ... 65440?s=21
Wow I wonder how he will get on replacing Toto as team boss?
:lol:

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by JN23 »

Mercedes first out the blocks today: https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2 ... ouncement/

Wolff, Daimler and Ineos now own a third of the team each and Wolff will remain as team principal/CEO for the next three years.

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by UnlikeUday »

It's official!
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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by Herb »

Herb wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:50 am

Personally, I' on a one-man crusade that Perez is the ideal driver for the second RBR seat - but realistically, I know that won't happen!
Well, Not sure I have ever been happier to be wrong!

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by Siao7 »

UnlikeUday wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:02 pm
It's official!
What??? Perez-RB?

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by Siao7 »

Never mind, just read the other thread!

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by UnlikeUday »

According to me, this is the most shocking/surprising hiring of a driver for 2021.
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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by pokerman »

overgeared wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:56 pm
Well Hamilton better sign whatever is put in front of him.

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-auto ... R3MX0n3W0Q

If Red Bull signs someone there will be nowhere for him to go, except Williams.

The music is about to stop, and Hamilton won't have a seat.
New to the forum, perhaps new to F1, why does Mercedes need to sign their 7xWDC?
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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:24 pm
I feel that Tsudona -- and possibly Lundgaard, although he was very inconsistent -- demonstrated himself as the one with the most outright potential in F2 this past season. His pace when he was on it was clearly class-leading; I don't recall any of the other drivers (except, again, possibly Lundgaard) having a weekend where they were just clearly the quickest in race conditions, but there were several for Tsunoda.

I think he belongs in F1, and I'll be quite interested to see how he does. I hope Red Bull doesn't rush him and ruin his career.
Yeah my two stand outs as well, I just hope ART can get on top of the tyres for Lundgaard next season.
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JN23
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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by JN23 »

Sounds like we won't get an announcement on a contract for Hamilton this afternoon following these comments from Wolff.

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by F1Tyrant »

JN23 wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:42 pm
Sounds like we won't get an announcement on a contract for Hamilton this afternoon following these comments from Wolff.
Hamilton is practically nailed on for the seat. I don't see any scenario where Hamilton is both alive and not driving for Mercedes next year.

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by overgeared »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:00 pm
JN23 wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:42 pm
Sounds like we won't get an announcement on a contract for Hamilton this afternoon following these comments from Wolff.
Hamilton is practically nailed on for the seat. I don't see any scenario where Hamilton is both alive and not driving for Mercedes next year.
Except now that every other seat is locked up and if your Toto why would you pay Hamilton his ask? With the signing of Perez at Red Bull my guess is the number just got even lower. It's the corona man!

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by overgeared »

Toto looks like he has put Hamilton on ice with his demands.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... t/4929174/

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Re: Silly Season 2021

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overgeared wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:46 pm
Except now that every other seat is locked up and if your Toto why would you pay Hamilton his ask? With the signing of Perez at Red Bull my guess is the number just got even lower. It's the corona man!
They'll meet him halfway to secure his services. Mercedes would look really stupid if Verstappen beats Bottas and Vandoorne to the Driver's title in Hamilton's absence.

...but I think Hamilton would probably sign a contract in the absence of an insulting, tightfisted lowball offer.

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by -K- »

Lewis should have signed earlier, his bargaining power is now reduced and he pretty much has to sign whatever is put in front of him unless he is happy to take a year (perhaps more) out. There are no seats left and while not the complete package yet, George will do a good job for a fraction of the price. Merc will of course pay him something to recognise that he is a 7x WDC, but other than that, George’s outing with the team puts a ceiling on how much he can ask for. The total of cost to buy out George’s contract and whatever Williams were going to pay him (I suspect George would even agree to drive for less to secure the seat in the first year) and whatever price Merc put on 7x WDC.

Hamilton has been even more passionate about his causes this year so it doesn’t seem unreasonable to me that he should take a pay cut. Many others have had to do so to keep their jobs in these times.

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by F1Tyrant »

-K- wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 4:05 pm
Lewis should have signed earlier, his bargaining power is now reduced and he pretty much has to sign whatever is put in front of him unless he is happy to take a year (perhaps more) out.
Mercedes forcing Hamilton out so tantalisingly short of 8 titles and 100 wins would really not go down well to say the least. There is no guarantee Bottas would be able to beat Verstappen while Russell gets up to speed.

I agree that for maximum value, a deal should have been struck soon after the Sakhir Grand Prix and now he'll have to take less.

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by overgeared »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:55 pm
overgeared wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:46 pm
Except now that every other seat is locked up and if your Toto why would you pay Hamilton his ask? With the signing of Perez at Red Bull my guess is the number just got even lower. It's the corona man!
They'll meet him halfway to secure his services. Mercedes would look really stupid if Verstappen beats Bottas and Vandoorne to the Driver's title in Hamilton's absence.

...but I think Hamilton would probably sign a contract in the absence of an insulting, tightfisted lowball offer.
You mean Bottas and Russell. Verstappen had a hard enough time beating Bottas. No his fault he is up against a superior car.

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by overgeared »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 4:12 pm
-K- wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 4:05 pm
Lewis should have signed earlier, his bargaining power is now reduced and he pretty much has to sign whatever is put in front of him unless he is happy to take a year (perhaps more) out.
Mercedes forcing Hamilton out so tantalisingly short of 8 titles and 100 wins would really not go down well to say the least. There is no guarantee Bottas would be able to beat Verstappen while Russell gets up to speed.

I agree that for maximum value, a deal should have been struck soon after the Sakhir Grand Prix and now he'll have to take less.
Here's the thing, if you listen to Toto he cares less that zero about titles and records. He cares about the stopwatch. He has said it hundreds of times.

Remember even if Hamilton wins an 8th title all 8 weren't in a Merc. So this is Lewis's record. Not Mercs. So it's not as valuable to them as constructors titles. That's what they "would" care about. But the 1/3 owner again according to what he says only cares about a stopwatch not a drivers personal accomplishments.

At the end of the day according to reports Hamilton wants 40 million pounds and to have less commitments (for less work).

He got a bit to greedy in the times of COVID when everyone else is suffering.

Also not only is Toto the boss but the part owner. So every dollar he pay's Hamilton more than he is worth is .33 cents out of his pocket. Not only that when you figure they can get Russell to do the same thing in the car for literally 1/10 the price (and that's assuming they give Russell a very generous raise) why would they pay anywhere near that. He will also have to explain to his partners how he justified paying Hamilton kings wages when there are clearly much much much cheaper options.

Not only that Toto is totally in the drivers seat. All the rest of the drives are signed sealed and delivered. So he is negotiating with a guy that wants piles of money to do less when there is another guy that can do it and Hamilton will have to take it or retire at least temporarily as there is nowhere for him to go but Williams because Russell would leave.

If I'm Toto I would flip the offer to Hamilton to an incentive based contract.

Pay him 7 million salary.

500k per race win
250 for 2nd
100 for 3rd

5 million Championship bonus.

And everything else is the same, full schedule.

If he had a repeat of 2020 (meaning dominates) he would walk with about 20 mil.

If he refuses I call Russell and offer him 3 mil with a smaller bonus structure to get him up to 7 or 8 mil if he wins the championship. Or just pay him a flat 3-5 mil. He would take either in a heartbeat.

Not to mention as I posted in the motosports link earlier. Toto has put Hamilton on ice. To me that pretty much says take it or leave it, you got a couple months to decide. I bet the offer only goes down to the more he waits.

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by F1Tyrant »

overgeared wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:56 pm
If I'm Toto I would flip the offer to Hamilton to an incentive based contract.

Pay him 7 million salary.

500k per race win
250 for 2nd
100 for 3rd

5 million Championship bonus.
Wow, that is a frankly ourageous offer and Hamilton should rightly walk away.

Bottas gets paid about $8 million. That offer is also asking him to take a 53% pay cut if he performs as well as last year. Such a contract is almost as bad as the offer Ron Dennis made to Damon Hill in 1997 of no basic salary but $1 million per race win.

It's utterly terrible business and shows an alarming faith in Russell who has, despite a strong performance in Sakhir, never scored a podium or won a race. Verstappen is clearly superior to Bottas and with similar reliability would have easily beat him for 2nd place in the championship.

Frankly, taking such an enormous risk by dumping Hamilton (not to mention, he'd never do any ambassadorial work for Mercedes and probably slag them off in the media for the rest of his life) is not the kind of shrewd work Toto Wolff has done throughout his successful career.

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by Exediron »

overgeared wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:56 pm
If I'm Toto I would flip the offer to Hamilton to an incentive based contract.
No, you wouldn't. And I'll explain why.

First off, I'll address this bit:
overgeared wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:56 pm
Also not only is Toto the boss but the part owner. So every dollar he pay's Hamilton more than he is worth is .33 cents out of his pocket.
That's not the way ownership works. Toto is 33% owner of a successful outfit that has reported a profit every season; he doesn't need to inject his own money into the team, and I'm sure he won't.

He only loses cents on the dollar if the value of the team goes down because of paying Hamilton's salary -- something that, I assure you, won't happen.
overgeared wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:56 pm
Pay him 7 million salary.

500k per race win
250 for 2nd
100 for 3rd

5 million Championship bonus.
Ultimately, there just isn't any reason for this kind of aggressive miserliness from Toto. You have to understand that he isn't trying to get fair market value for Hamilton's on track driving advantage. That's obviously not worth 40 million dollars.

What Hamilton offers Mercedes goes far beyond his advantage on track. It's about the marketing leverage that having Hamilton -- a very popular figure and the most successful driver of all time -- gives them by being associated with their brand. He opens partner opportunities to them that Russell wouldn't get a sniff at (Tommy Hilfiger, for example, is a Hamilton sponsor who also sponsors the team), and he allows them to connect their own brand to his. That's where the value comes in, not in being two tenths quicker than Valtteri Bottas.

Put another way: what's the marketing value of creating a new one-time champion in George Russell, versus the marketing value of being able to link your brand to the first and only eight-time WDC in history?

If you were Toto Wolff, you'd understand that your job is much more than trying to squeeze bottom dollar out of one of the most marketable drivers in the world. But you're not Toto Wolff.
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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by tootsie323 »

^ This. Hamilton is most likely worth more to Mercedes on marketing value than he is to WCC prize money.
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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by overgeared »

It's not that Hamilton doesn't have value. It's just half what he is asking (IMO).

If not then why hasn't he signed him? If he's so valuable he would open up the cash register.

Quote from Toto

"So it has delayed us a little bit, but we are not worried in eventually getting it done. We are putting no special date to it, because we don't want to be put under pressure from you guys [the media] while it's not signed yet. So sooner or later, it needs to be done. At the latest before we go testing".


Hamilton is on ice. I feel like he will sign whatever was offered or it' will be Bottas/Russell.

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by mikeyg123 »

This has been one of the busiest, silliest silly seasons in living memory but just think about how different it would be if Ferrari had decided to continue to with Vettel?

No changes at Ferrari, McLaren, Renault or Racing Point. No Alonso coming back.

Red Bull could have stuck with Albon or go with Hulk or maybe even go with Alonso.

But we could well have ended up with an extremely dull silly season with the only changes being at Haas and AT.

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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by DOLOMITE »

I'm looking at it as Hamilton has the seat, they just havent agreed terms. I don't know how much Russell's run will affect discussions, Toto has said its irrelevant. It's inconceivable that Hamilton would go somewhere else or take a sabbatical so just a question of terms. My guess is its more about Hamilton wanting more freedom do things outside of race weekends , but I wonder if he is also asking for commitments from AMG on things like diversity programs and the ability to use F1 to tackle issues he feels strongly about. He has definitely suggested this is what he wants as his legacy more than titles. Be fascinating to know.
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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by pokerman »

overgeared wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:45 am
It's not that Hamilton doesn't have value. It's just half what he is asking (IMO).

If not then why hasn't he signed him? If he's so valuable he would open up the cash register.

Quote from Toto

"So it has delayed us a little bit, but we are not worried in eventually getting it done. We are putting no special date to it, because we don't want to be put under pressure from you guys [the media] while it's not signed yet. So sooner or later, it needs to be done. At the latest before we go testing".


Hamilton is on ice. I feel like he will sign whatever was offered or it' will be Bottas/Russell.
I don't understand your level of expertise to know exactly how much money Hamilton should be paid.
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Re: Silly Season 2021

Post by overgeared »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:30 pm
overgeared wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:45 am
It's not that Hamilton doesn't have value. It's just half what he is asking (IMO).

If not then why hasn't he signed him? If he's so valuable he would open up the cash register.

Quote from Toto

"So it has delayed us a little bit, but we are not worried in eventually getting it done. We are putting no special date to it, because we don't want to be put under pressure from you guys [the media] while it's not signed yet. So sooner or later, it needs to be done. At the latest before we go testing".


Hamilton is on ice. I feel like he will sign whatever was offered or it' will be Bottas/Russell.
I don't understand your level of expertise to know exactly how much money Hamilton should be paid.
It's called capitalism.
The market sets the price.
I saw a guy qualify .026 secs off Bottas after being in the car for 1 day.
Bottas has outqualified Hamilton let us not forget.
I saw him get a great start, leap into the lead and pull away in a car he has never driven.
I saw him slice through the field unlike Bottas who in traffic just parks it.
And he did that after his team screwed him (not on purpose but nontheless)

Same thing Hamilton does.

So if it were your money, do you pay a guy 40 mil or 3-5 to do that job?

That is called capitalism. When one guy will come in and do the same job for 1/10 the price. New guy wins hands down everywhere but Cuba and North Korea.

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