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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 8:28 pm 
pokerman wrote:
Yeah I competed in karts for 20 years, to say we need to get out of our chairs and compete in something was perhaps a bit condenscending.

Heavens.... Condescension is not my game nor sport, no need for the defensiveness. I realize now how it may have been misinterpreted....... "A suggestion to those that can't differentiate: get out of your chairs and physically participate in something, anything; then play the same on a computer. e.g.: Go fishing, come home, and fish on your computer."
My sincerest apology for your misunderstanding. :blush:

The "we" you refer to does not exist for everyone (apparently...there's at least three of us here that it doesn't ;) )...I was referring to those that might not participate in any physical activity (not even a "competition") that they can also play with computer games/sims. I know of many these days right in my neighborhood. 'Scares me that I don't see youngsters out and about playing this or that as we did when I was a youngster....their eyes and hands glued to some sort of gaming device (or, just as busy texting...).
We'd either just "hang out" with each other, or, with nothing at all in hand, we'd be inventive and come up with things to do.

Again, 'sorry for my causing the misunderstanding. :uhoh:


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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 10:43 pm 
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jimclark wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah I competed in karts for 20 years, to say we need to get out of our chairs and compete in something was perhaps a bit condenscending.

Heavens.... Condescension is not my game nor sport, no need for the defensiveness. I realize now how it may have been misinterpreted....... "A suggestion to those that can't differentiate: get out of your chairs and physically participate in something, anything; then play the same on a computer. e.g.: Go fishing, come home, and fish on your computer."
My sincerest apology for your misunderstanding. :blush:

The "we" you refer to does not exist for everyone (apparently...there's at least three of us here that it doesn't ;) )...I was referring to those that might not participate in any physical activity (not even a "competition") that they can also play with computer games/sims. I know of many these days right in my neighborhood. 'Scares me that I don't see youngsters out and about playing this or that as we did when I was a youngster....their eyes and hands glued to some sort of gaming device (or, just as busy texting...).
We'd either just "hang out" with each other, or, with nothing at all in hand, we'd be inventive and come up with things to do.

Again, 'sorry for my causing the misunderstanding. :uhoh:

Fair enough, I was claryfying that I know what real competition is about and me personally I don't play computor games apart from poker which in itself is a game any way.

I think you might be missing the point about how seriously Indycar themselves were taking the sim races and how many people were watching and let down by the farcical ending, certain drivers showed a lack of respect for people who wanted to watch a serious race and a lack of respect for the organisers and the sim racing community sending a message that sim racing is a joke.

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 2:43 am 
I'll pm you.Not immediately, but soon.


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 7:23 am 
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Now-oldtimer Mika Salo has also been doing some e-racing in the Legends Trophy -series and is not impressed at all with the Indycar-drivers :lol:
https://www.twitch.tv/mikasalo66/clip/E ... iedogDoggo
https://www.twitch.tv/mikasalo66/clip/T ... onTebowing

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 9:19 am 
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Exediron wrote:
This incidentally raises a very serious issue about Pagenaud's conduct. How many people do you suppose bet on the outcome of the virtual 500? And out of those, how many do you suppose bet on Lando?

People say there wasn't any money involved, but there almost certainly was.
If I were a driver thinking of emulating Ferrucci or Pagenaud I'd be concerned about the "Elephant in the Zoom" (sorry :-P )

I'd guess the one absolute similarity between virtual and real sporting events with gambling is the ban/prison sentence for fraudulently affecting the result might be no different at all...

Or perhaps the bookies would have a more "personal" response ;)


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 11:57 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Now-oldtimer Mika Salo has also been doing some e-racing in the Legends Trophy -series and is not impressed at all with the Indycar-drivers :lol:
https://www.twitch.tv/mikasalo66/clip/E ... iedogDoggo
https://www.twitch.tv/mikasalo66/clip/T ... onTebowing

The only word I understood was Indycar. :)

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 12:09 pm 
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For people like myself that doesn't know that much about sim racing this was an interesting watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlYG1bvPhGE

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 12:34 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
On a similar sort of line is something like fly-by-wire (sorry, not sure how to punctuate that!) substantially different to braking on a sim rig? Or how about power steering? Flappy paddle gear changes? Almost all the driver inputs on an F1 car are electronically interpreted rather than mechanical anyway.


I will speak from limited experience.

I do clubman level motorsport - sprints and circuit racing. I own a consumer level set up, with VR in the house - and I've had a go at a professional level simulator through acquaintances in the real life stuff.

With my consumer level wheel and pedals, it is only really useful for learning tracks. Helps a little bit with race craft maybe, but... you lack the spacial awareness and belly feeling that you get in real life. You don't get the sensations of under/over steer and are able to make the micro-corrections. The sensation is coming through the wheel, not your balance, belly, hand and bum. The pedals don't give you much feedback, and again you are relying on sound from the TV - where as in real life, locking a wheel for example - you just know, it's immediately obvious - I don't find that on sim racing. In terms of paddle shift, my road car is paddle shift and the consumer level wheel changes gears much the same. I find it difficult to change gear when using a car (in game) that isn't paddle shift - as there is a delay.

Putting VR certainly helps with the spacial awareness aspects, but unfortunately I get VR sick with racing games. When using VR most cars are left hand drive, but I set my manual box up right hand drive - so can be sickly to look at in game with computer changing gears the opposite what you do.

The pro-rig cost (circa £25k) quite a bit more than what my 2 seasons in motorsport have cost me so far, (and that includes buying a car, trailer, tools, etc) so out of reach for most people - including myself. However it was a different level. Felt far less like a game and far more real. Improved graphics with good PC, and far better pedals - so much more accurate. Definitely think anyone who was a pro driver could jump on it and quickly match their times. You still don't have the belly and balance feel, but its 80% of the way there.

Depends on the game as well. On iRacing, I wasn't that far off the top guys - still a decent gap but one you could see how you could close by simply getting better. Playing something like Gran Turismo Sport, and going onto racing the top guys and baffled as to why you are 6-7 seconds off their pace, and can't physically see where 6-7 seconds can be gained.


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 5:48 pm 
"you lack the spacial awareness and belly feeling that you get in real life. You don't get the sensations of under/over steer and are able to make the micro-corrections. The sensation is coming through the wheel, not your balance, belly, hand and bum. The pedals don't give you much feedback, and again you are relying on sound from the TV - where as in real life, locking a wheel for example - you just know, it's immediately obvious - I don't find that on sim racing."

Now we're talking...... :nod: :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 7:16 pm 
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Badgeronimous wrote:
Depends on the game as well. On iRacing, I wasn't that far off the top guys - still a decent gap but one you could see how you could close by simply getting better. Playing something like Gran Turismo Sport, and going onto racing the top guys and baffled as to why you are 6-7 seconds off their pace, and can't physically see where 6-7 seconds can be gained.

That's because iRacing is a sim, and GT Sport is a game. A sim is designed to replicate the act of driving a real car as accurately as possible, whereas the game is just designed to be fun.

The way you drive quickly in GT Sport has very little to do with the way you drive an actual car quickly (you have to slide everywhere), whereas in iRacing the way to drive quickly is about 95% the same. It's that missing 5% that frustrates the pro drivers; Newgarden for example gave a good explanation on his stream about how the slip angles are all wrong, and in a real IndyCar you can exceed the slip without losing the car whereas in iRacing exceeding the slip is instant death. For someone who's used to living right on the edge of that slip angle it's a huge problem, but for a less talented driver who would naturally drive a few percent off anyway it's not a huge issue.

Of course, there's a third category, which is talented racing drivers who are able to separate the sim model from real life and master both. Verstappen and Norris would fit into this category.

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 7:30 pm 
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I tell you what, driving sim racers have never in their life had the kind of professional feedback they are getting at the moment. Give these companies a year or so to update the software and they'll be better than ever.

Assetto Corsa, my go to sim, has a great race going on tomorrow with lots of F1 drivers. That sim is by far the best as far as I'm concerned, and it will get better as I can't imagine they won't speak with a lot of these drivers and gain from their opinions and issues with the games.

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 9:06 pm 
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jimclark wrote:
"you lack the spacial awareness and belly feeling that you get in real life. You don't get the sensations of under/over steer and are able to make the micro-corrections. The sensation is coming through the wheel, not your balance, belly, hand and bum. The pedals don't give you much feedback, and again you are relying on sound from the TV - where as in real life, locking a wheel for example - you just know, it's immediately obvious - I don't find that on sim racing."

Now we're talking...... :nod: :thumbup:

That was the cheap system.

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 9:56 pm 
I've raced slot cars, in video games (back in the '70's/'80s), radio control cars (1/12 ni-cads and 1/8 gas), and back to games/sims. In none have I ever felt the forces acting against my body as those felt whilst actually racing on foot, bicycles, karts, or cars as Badgeronimous stated above.
I guess that's the key to my consideration, the personal physical involvement.
That's must be why I can't consider remotely "driving" something on a screen "sport" [I'll even give the slot cars (inter-store) and r/c cars (intra-state) a bit more credit....we raced actual vehicles....'literally had to build, develop, and set them up physically, then "drive" them, to keep them physically on the circuit's surface (or not 8O )....however.....I still just considered them "hobbies", not sport, as we were not physically involved (in them)].
I understand one's having to be able to control quite accurately what your "driving", and that's a skill, for sure. But not being involved physically, it's still just playing a "game".
Now, don't even :!: ....when Pong first came out, we were "physically" involved too, (in saloons, playing for beers and shots, we'd work up quite some sweats...) but you know (I hope) what I mean. It was still just a game, not a sport....... ;)

Methinks there's some indoctrination/initiation going on which is causing change (happens in all sorts of aspects of life) of some's definition of words..... :)

EDIT: pokerman, I thought I was in the pm window, that's what it was s'posed to be...... Now it'll be on it's way.... :blush:


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 10:39 pm 
pokerman wrote:
That was the cheap system.


What system, pray tell, applies the sensation of Gs to every nerve in your body? Like I said, having been in aircraft simulators, not one has produced that effect. The only way I could see, let's say one G of lateral force would be to turn you, instantaneously, mind you, 90 degrees from vertical. Or accelerate you, in whatever direction, for whatever length of time/distance required (would need an awful large area and would produce mega speeds for a long sweeper.... ;)) etc. etc......

With all of that expense, 'may as well go do the real thing instead of just playing a game.... 8O :-P

:twisted:


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 4:47 am 
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Honestly, I don't know what can be said here, because whatever is said to you you just come back with "it's just a computer game"

It's a "technically correct" argument. But then any televised sporting event can be dismissed as just a "sports game"

You are focusing on the argument as to whether simulation racing is analogous to real racing, but that isn't the point here. The issue, in terms of this thread, is one of sporting conduct.

A simulation game - IE one that is based entirely based on the user skill and not down to random luck (like powerups in Mariokart) is a game that be played competively as a sport. Even Pong could be played fairly as a sport - it doesn't matter whether they are equivalent to physical sports, they are games that reward the hard work, effort and skill of the player.

iRacing absolutely falls into this category and it is taken extremely seriously by those who take part, hence why participants sinks thousands of dollars into their equipment. People have been made millionaires by being successful at eSports - see Starcraft for example where in parts of Asia competitions are watched live by audiences that most real world sports can only dream of.

Virtual racing is not at that level yet - although it fully deserves to be as in many ways it is one of the most skill dependent computer games - however the lockdown is a moment for it to grow and enlarge its audience as well as entertain motor racing fans who are missing real races by having the drivers from their sports compete.

What Pagenaud and Ferruci did ruined that for everyone. Up until their antics it had been treated seriously by everyone - and arguably they were treating it even more seriously than anyone else because they were so angered by the prospect of Norris winning they did what they did. They could have fallen back on all the arguments you presented where it fell short of being an accurate simulation but they didn't. They interfered with a race result.

And let's be clear, this is not a weakness of computer games - they could pull the same move in real life, even in a non dangerous way. But they would be banned from the sport. They used the shield of "it's just a computer game" to allow them to do something unsportsmanlike and get away with it.


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 5:21 am 
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Just to play devil's advocate here - and I'm not condoning what Pagenaud did - but what if his intentions were genuinely to simply act as a temporary buffer to Norris and that the reason was simply because he was, in his own opinion, taken out directly as a result of Norris' earlier 'dive?'
I know that this is a sim - and not a real - event but Indy drivers do seem to have that agreement that, if they are three-wide on a corner the last one in backs out, ingrained. So, from Pagenaud's view, he was taken out because Norris did not respect that agreement.
His reaction to this was to 'take Lando out.' Maybe this interpretation is rather generous to Pagenaud but what if he simply meant take Norris out of the lead / contention and not literally take him out of the race itself and that the move itself was rather poorly executed?
I'm not saying that this is the case, just offering up the argument as a possibility.

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 9:30 am 
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Currently watching the Australian Supercars E Race at Spa and it appears some of the drivers rigs have vibration systems in their seats that feedback bumps, sliding etc.

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 12:34 pm 
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jimclark wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That was the cheap system.


What system, pray tell, applies the sensation of Gs to every nerve in your body? Like I said, having been in aircraft simulators, not one has produced that effect. The only way I could see, let's say one G of lateral force would be to turn you, instantaneously, mind you, 90 degrees from vertical. Or accelerate you, in whatever direction, for whatever length of time/distance required (would need an awful large area and would produce mega speeds for a long sweeper.... ;)) etc. etc......

With all of that expense, 'may as well go do the real thing instead of just playing a game.... 8O :-P

:twisted:

Me personally I've no idea but I did provide a link to the view of a pofessional racing driver, someone who races for a living not a hobbyist and he said it's very close to real, also I think that's were there is a bit of a disconnect, the top sim racers are not just hobbyists I believe they get prize money and have sponsors?

As a pure hobby sure do the real thing rather than spend £25K on the very best rig, but what about people who want more than that, we have seen sim racers get sponsored into real racing, that's not bad for a £25K layout, try making your way up the ladder in the real world and you will find that you need millions of pounds.

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 12:38 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
Just to play devil's advocate here - and I'm not condoning what Pagenaud did - but what if his intentions were genuinely to simply act as a temporary buffer to Norris and that the reason was simply because he was, in his own opinion, taken out directly as a result of Norris' earlier 'dive?'
I know that this is a sim - and not a real - event but Indy drivers do seem to have that agreement that, if they are three-wide on a corner the last one in backs out, ingrained. So, from Pagenaud's view, he was taken out because Norris did not respect that agreement.
His reaction to this was to 'take Lando out.' Maybe this interpretation is rather generous to Pagenaud but what if he simply meant take Norris out of the lead / contention and not literally take him out of the race itself and that the move itself was rather poorly executed?
I'm not saying that this is the case, just offering up the argument as a possibility.

Taking someone out only has one meaning and brake testing someome on an oval will lead to only one conclusion.

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 12:40 pm 
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A good overview of the incident

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIyhoRL5sQ8

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 1:27 pm 
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Lando's stream with race engineer and spotter for those thinking this was not a serious race.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q71Z9BFg6E0

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 2:18 pm 
pokerman wrote:
jimclark wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That was the cheap system.


What system, pray tell, applies the sensation of Gs to every nerve in your body? Like I said, having been in aircraft simulators, not one has produced that effect. The only way I could see, let's say one G of lateral force would be to turn you, instantaneously, mind you, 90 degrees from vertical. Or accelerate you, in whatever direction, for whatever length of time/distance required (would need an awful large area and would produce mega speeds for a long sweeper.... ;)) etc. etc......

With all of that expense, 'may as well go do the real thing instead of just playing a game.... 8O :-P

:twisted:

Me personally I've no idea but I did provide a link to the view of a pofessional racing driver, someone who races for a living not a hobbyist and he said it's very close to real, also I think that's were there is a bit of a disconnect, the top sim racers are not just hobbyists I believe they get prize money and have sponsors?

As a pure hobby sure do the real thing rather than spend £25K on the very best rig, but what about people who want more than that, we have seen sim racers get sponsored into real racing, that's not bad for a £25K layout, try making your way up the ladder in the real world and you will find that you need millions of pounds.

You've no idea because it doesn't exist. ;)

(Of course gamers could sit in good ol' rocket sleds....
Image
but that would only be good for accelerative Gs....

.....or a centrifuge for lateral....
Image
....but again 'would require instantaneous re-adjustment of your body to get the desired direction of the Gs....also the space required, and all the expenses for every body.... :D )

Sorry, I guess you misunderstood my question as you addressed something entirely different.

What has a professional race driver to do with a hobbyist in regard to this? I don't understand the connection? My reference was that even remotely racing slot cars and r/c cars as a hobby was more akin to the real thing (the Gs at least are working on the cars) than two dimensional games/sims on a screen (zero Gs), yet it was still just a hobby, like racing on a screen is still just a game.

One doesn't need to be "a professional race driver", or even have to race at all, to feel Gs....run around a corner, into a wall 8O :frown: , or just sit in a moving vehicle.....you'll feel them.
You don't sitting in front of a screen, watching a monitor......you're not moving!!!!! (same as an aircraft sim, as I mentioned)
You can go (as you said you did) karting....for simple dollars/pounds (even rentals), not "millions"....and that would be experiencing real racing.

I do believe indoctrination/initiation is at work here. Enough on this. 'Been a pleasure discussing. :)


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 2:30 pm 
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jimclark wrote:

I do believe indoctrination/initiation is at work here. Enough on this. 'Been a pleasure discussing. :)


Indoctrination? Into what?

Why are you trying to belittle something that many people enjoy?

There is no mention of G-Forces in the definition of a sport. It only requires physical activity and skill. Both of those are required to compete in eRacing. It may not be as physical as actual racing, but there is some level of activity (remember, Darts is a sport!).

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 6:44 pm 
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Herb wrote:
jimclark wrote:

I do believe indoctrination/initiation is at work here. Enough on this. 'Been a pleasure discussing. :)

Indoctrination? Into what?

Why are you trying to belittle something that many people enjoy?

There is no mention of G-Forces in the definition of a sport. It only requires physical activity and skill. Both of those are required to compete in eRacing. It may not be as physical as actual racing, but there is some level of activity (remember, Darts is a sport!).

This discussion has hit a metaphorical brick wall. The poster clearly has a well established belief that sport is linked to physical performance and nothing else, and we're not going to change that by arguing in circles. I think it's become clear that jimclark doesn't doubt the skill involved in sim racing, he simply doesn't consider it a sport if it's not being done physically in a real car.

I personally consider this viewpoint to be incorrect. To me, sport is about skill and competition. But to be honest I don't think it's a good use of my time to debate with someone who thinks I've been 'indoctrinated' just because I don't agree with his rather behind-the-times point of view.

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 7:25 pm 
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I'm getting pointless things about this pm'd to me now as well! :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 10:24 pm 
;) Naaahhh. Be honest. I replied to your "Currently watching the Australian Supercars E Race at Spa and it appears some of the drivers rigs have vibration systems in their seats that feedback bumps, sliding etc. "

'Just did it thru pm as this topic IS worn outand off topic. I was wondering how you get a "sliding" feeling when that requires G forces...... :)


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 10:41 pm 
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jimclark wrote:
;) Naaahhh. Be honest. I replied to your "Currently watching the Australian Supercars E Race at Spa and it appears some of the drivers rigs have vibration systems in their seats that feedback bumps, sliding etc. "

'Just did it thru pm as this topic IS worn outand off topic. I was wondering how you get a "sliding" feeling when that requires G forces...... :)



Plenty of motion going on there!

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 7:07 am 
:-P

Longitudinal, lateral, and vertical?! :-|
In a Chair??!! :uhoh:
For what duration/distance???!!! 8O I really don't see the room for for even a short trail brakin'...... ;)

:D


Last edited by jimclark on Thu May 07, 2020 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 7:24 am 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eoOtQcF7S0

Just jump to 1:50. It even has a G-force simulator on the helmet. For a measly £1m though...


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 7:41 am 
Siao7 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eoOtQcF7S0

Just jump to 1:50. It even has a G-force simulator on the helmet. For a measly £1m though...


That's just your haaaiiiid..., however. :thumbdown:

I'll stand there for a couple of hours pullin' on it for you for a fraction of the cost..... :-P

Edit: Also, for a nominal fee, I can simulate a 200 mph bird strike (with a hammer) if you wish..... :D

:)


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 9:53 pm 
Message subject: Re: Pagenaud crashes Norris from the lead of the Indy 500
From: Herb
Sent: May 7th, 2020, 4:41 am
To: jimclark

Herb wrote:
(A) Unfortunately, you don't get to decide what is and isn't a sport.

(B) Calling it "just a game" is where you are belittling things. Don't be so condescending. If it is a fact - prove it, back up your assertion with evidence.

(C) And where you are going wrong is thinking that games and sports are mutually exclusive. You play a game of football, football is definitely a sport.

(D) I raced slot cars for years too, I don't know why you keep bringing it up, has nothing to do with either. eRacing is certainly more akin to actual racing than they are. With the appropriate rig setup, you definitely have more feedback on the behaviour of the car in a racing sim.

(E) The fact you chose to PM this rather than respond in thread makes me think you are unconvinced by your own arguments.


I was done with this foolishness and had backed off to just having fun, however, having received this pm, 'one more time seems appropriate because.....


(E) Apparently, one must waste others' time by posting publicly to convince a certain "nother" of one's confidence in one's self. The fact they chose "to PM this rather than respond in thread" confuses me.
I'm dizzy......I thought that is what I shouldn't have done..... :?

Having established why I'm posting here again, as it is "supposed" :frown: to prove confidence, I'll continue....

(A) Sure I do. 'Same as anyone, no? :? Or is that only when you agree...?

(B) I did, all that you suggest. Re-read my posts.
In a nutshell, again - The sport is auto racing...there are auto racing games; and there is even the simulation of the sport of auto racing. What is watched lately is the simulation of the sport; a two dimensional CGI of the sport of auto racing on video screens/monitors. There are no physical contact patches, no drive trains, no aerodynamics, etc., etc. :)

(C) "Where you are going wrong thinking that is.........I don't think that at all. I'm not discussing what the multiple meanings of the words sports, games. and sims are; I am discussing what the activities, games/sims vs. sports, are. :)

(D) I thought I was quite clear in my explanation of bringing up slot car racing (and R/C).
Agreed. They have nothing to do with one another.....except.......
Again, we quite seriously designed, built, developed, set up, and raced three dimensional, literal, physical, racing automobiles (which were acted upon by the laws of physics) that one had to "drive" around three dimensional, literal, circuits. This was not a game, nor was it a simulation. It was real.
It, however, also was not a sport. It was just a hobby.
I'm not belittling myself, nor being condescending to myself, or you (if I thought little of it, I wouldn't have done it for four years ('66-'69), such was my passion for auto racing as a youngster), when I state that slot (and R/C) car racing was just a hobby. I am confident enough that calling it just a hobby does not offend me, it really was just that, and I was just proud of my accomplishments (my last year 'sponsored by a Mura Motors distributor; no $$$, 'just anything I needed to build my cars, all inclusive) :)

I hope that helps. I'm quite secure with my rationale. As always, to each his own, even when it differs with the proverbial "yours". Let us try no más again, it has gotten boring. :nod:

(BTW, when did you race slots? Did you scratch build? In what era/years? Chassis'?...inline?, sidewinder?...piano wire?, tube?, rods?, pans?, plumbers? Or, later wing cars? What facilities? Good times they were. 'Thinkin' of gettin' back into it if I move back up north. There's still a slot raceway near where I'd be. :] )


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 10:43 pm 
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Posts: 2355
Exediron wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I fully understand what you mean and I respect that view. My comment related to the nature of a racing video game being different in that it is not real. There is no consequence of crashing, no danger, and hence morals are determined "in-game" by technical possibilities. Thus, it makes no sense to simulate real-world "games" in virtual ways. It is video gaming, not car racing.

Not surprisingly, successful e-sports disciplines do not mirror real-world sports. Instead, it is ego shooters (Dota, CS:GO, League of Legends, ...) or strategy games like Fortnite - games who cannot be/are not competetively played in the real world.

To believe that video game racing can follow the same rules and standards as motor racind is - I apolgize - naive.

I can see this point of view, and I agree that the leagues that aren't 'real world replacements' are the only ones that have achieved a level of legitimacy so far.

I can't agree with the last sentence, however. Out of a field of 33 drivers, 31 of them managed to adhere to real racing etiquette. What Pagenaud and Ferrucci did wouldn't even cut the mustard as acceptable etiquette for a beer league, let alone an event that's being broadcast live to the world.


So, what is the etiquette of a video game race? Most commercial e-sports are about virtually killing people - something that would be ethically unacceptable in real sports. Thus, e-sports runs on different ethical standards than real sports and transferring the etiquette of real racing to video game racing seems to be not so straightforward to me (unless one confuses the two ...).

So, who is the organizing body of this video game race and what were the in-game rules under which the race sim ran? What rulebook applies?


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 11:46 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I fully understand what you mean and I respect that view. My comment related to the nature of a racing video game being different in that it is not real. There is no consequence of crashing, no danger, and hence morals are determined "in-game" by technical possibilities. Thus, it makes no sense to simulate real-world "games" in virtual ways. It is video gaming, not car racing.

Not surprisingly, successful e-sports disciplines do not mirror real-world sports. Instead, it is ego shooters (Dota, CS:GO, League of Legends, ...) or strategy games like Fortnite - games who cannot be/are not competetively played in the real world.

To believe that video game racing can follow the same rules and standards as motor racind is - I apolgize - naive.

I can see this point of view, and I agree that the leagues that aren't 'real world replacements' are the only ones that have achieved a level of legitimacy so far.

I can't agree with the last sentence, however. Out of a field of 33 drivers, 31 of them managed to adhere to real racing etiquette. What Pagenaud and Ferrucci did wouldn't even cut the mustard as acceptable etiquette for a beer league, let alone an event that's being broadcast live to the world.

So, what is the etiquette of a video game race? Most commercial e-sports are about virtually killing people - something that would be ethically unacceptable in real sports. Thus, e-sports runs on different ethical standards than real sports and transferring the etiquette of real racing to video game racing seems to be not so straightforward to me (unless one confuses the two ...).

So, who is the organizing body of this video game race and what were the in-game rules under which the race sim ran? What rulebook applies?

The race was held on iRacing, which has a code of conduct that is publicly available and strictly enforced for ordinary racers:

iRacing Official Sporting Code

Unfortunately, the IndyCar Challenge was not stewarded by iRacing officials (or at all), and so the rules were simply a 'gentleman's agreement' with no enforcement.

The rules of online racing are easy to understand, because they're almost identical to the rules of physical racing. The goal of this type of simulated racing is to have an experience as close as possible to reality, and that extends to the rules. If this has been an ordinary iRacing event with stewarding, both drivers would almost certainly have faced suspensions from the platform for what they did.

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 11:57 am 
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Lando watches the crash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcadRA3NMTo

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