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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 10:43 pm 
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Well, the iRacing IndyCar virtual series -- and Lando Norris' participation in it -- has ended in a giant cluster-you-know-what. The actual finish to the 500 was arguably even worse than this incident, but here's the part involving Lando and Simon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfDV_PsRWnQ

In this video you can see:

1) The incident that sparked the later crash. Lando goes down the inside of two cars, and a netcode glitch causes contact with Graham Rahal, sending his car into Pagenaud.
2) Pagenaud pits and jokes (maybe?) to his engineer about taking Norris out. He then drives out of the pits, slowly circles the track until Norris catches him, and blocks him on the apex of a corner. Both crash.
3) Afterward, both sides of the conversation where he calls Norris and apologizes.

Speaking as a fan of both IndyCar and F1, this was a massively disappointing finish to what I had considered the best virtual replacement series. Norris came over to race in the Indy series and took it very seriously, and he was rewarded with a petty, childish wreck. What happened fits completely with the stereotype of Indy drivers as insecure and inferior to F1 drivers, and that's another shame since I don't usually consider that to be true.

...

And for a bonus, here's Santino Ferrucci intentionally wrecking Oliver Askew from the lead on the final straight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1WrUGJ3bX4

What a little ****.

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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 11:24 pm 
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It was a total disgrace, they showed no respect for those watching the race who wanted to believe they were actually watching a race, to me it looked like a bruised ego that didn't want this young F1 outsider winning what in real life is a highly prestiguos race.

The Indycar sim races have actually been my favourite races, this is I believe is the last race so I can't stomp my feet and say I'm not watching any more races. Norris was full of priase for the series after COTA venturing that some time in the future he'd like to take part in the series, now he must be feeling how childish the egos of some.

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Last edited by pokerman on Sun May 03, 2020 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 11:27 pm 
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"That's why F1 drivers take some time on ovals" kind of summed it up really. An attitude of stereotyping F1 drivers as a whole over one innocent event. Even though Alonso was able to walk into Indy500 and nearly win...

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 12:05 am 
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Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
"That's why F1 drivers take some time on ovals" kind of summed it up really. An attitude of stereotyping F1 drivers as a whole over one innocent event. Even though Alonso was able to walk into Indy500 and nearly win...

Particularly since, on replay, Norris didn't do anything wrong. He left Rahal plenty of space and it was just an iRacing glitch that caused the contact. Their cars never actually touched.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 10:04 am 
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Well, it is kids playing a video game - and it looks like kids playing a video game.

;)


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 11:43 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
"That's why F1 drivers take some time on ovals" kind of summed it up really. An attitude of stereotyping F1 drivers as a whole over one innocent event. Even though Alonso was able to walk into Indy500 and nearly win...

Particularly since, on replay, Norris didn't do anything wrong. He left Rahal plenty of space and it was just an iRacing glitch that caused the contact. Their cars never actually touched.


Lando Norris made a laugh of it on Instagram this morning anyways

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 12:02 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, it is kids playing a video game - and it looks like kids playing a video game.

;)

That being said then there's no point in to staging anymore races and trying to make them seem authentic.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 12:43 pm 
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The thing is there is no consequence whatsoever for doing anything like that. In the real world that behaviour would mean he loses his licence minimum and potentially kills a driver.


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 1:19 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
The thing is there is no consequence whatsoever for doing anything like that. In the real world that behaviour would mean he loses his licence minimum and potentially kills a driver.

Tell that to the 2 NASCAR drivers that lost their seats because of their behaviour in sim races, in the case of Pagenaud it looks like things have been quickly brushed under the carpet, in the case of Ferucci I guess at least he was battling for the win but in any case he's not competing in Indycar because of his talent.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 6:29 pm 
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Such a disappointing scene to what was a great race. A pure disaster finish. Norris drove brilliantly and was in the best position after the safety car. For professional drivers to use the excuse “it’s just a game” and purposely crash into others is a rubbish to go about losing.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 7:06 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, it is kids playing a video game - and it looks like kids playing a video game.

;)

That being said then there's no point in to staging anymore races and trying to make them seem authentic.


Yes.
It is a video game and it is not authentic.


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 8:21 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, it is kids playing a video game - and it looks like kids playing a video game.;)

That being said then there's no point in to staging anymore races and trying to make them seem authentic.

What "races'?
They are not; there has been no racing.
The silly crap that's been displayed is just that; silly games/sims that entertain "children" (obviously, young AND older) that are made to look "authentic".

'Works for me. Gives me more time to actually participate in other activities. Like a good nap. Or, better yet, giving the springs a good squeaking and the headboard a good wall banging..... ;)

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 8:50 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, it is kids playing a video game - and it looks like kids playing a video game.
jimclark wrote:
The silly crap that's been displayed is just that; silly games/sims that entertain "children" (obviously, young AND older) that are made to look "authentic".

There is one difference -- and only one difference -- between a game and a sport. That difference is people taking it seriously. Football is a game, but I don't think it would fly for a striker to pick up the ball and place it in the net and then laugh about how it's just a game.

Up until the antics displayed by certain drivers, the IndyCar iRacing series was being treated like a sport. They brought it back down to the level of a game with their conduct. Obviously this was applauded by certain people such as the two of you, since it fits with your view that eSports aren't legitimate sporting events. But for the thousands (or even millions) of people who actually did take it as a serious sporting event, it was hugely insulting.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:41 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, it is kids playing a video game - and it looks like kids playing a video game.
jimclark wrote:
The silly crap that's been displayed is just that; silly games/sims that entertain "children" (obviously, young AND older) that are made to look "authentic".

There is one difference -- and only one difference -- between a game and a sport. That difference is people taking it seriously. Football is a game, but I don't think it would fly for a striker to pick up the ball and place it in the net and then laugh about how it's just a game.

Up until the antics displayed by certain drivers, the IndyCar iRacing series was being treated like a sport. They brought it back down to the level of a game with their conduct. Obviously this was applauded by certain people such as the two of you, since it fits with your view that eSports aren't legitimate sporting events. But for the thousands (or even millions) of people who actually did take it as a serious sporting event, it was hugely insulting.


I fully understand what you mean and I respect that view. My comment related to the nature of a racing video game being different in that it is not real. There is no consequence of crashing, no danger, and hence morals are determined "in-game" by technical possibilities. Thus, it makes no sense to simulate real-world "games" in virtual ways. It is video gaming, not car racing.

Not surprisingly, successful e-sports disciplines do not mirror real-world sports. Instead, it is ego shooters (Dota, CS:GO, League of Legends, ...) or strategy games like Fortnite - games who cannot be/are not competetively played in the real world.

To believe that video game racing can follow the same rules and standards as motor racind is - I apolgize - naive.


Last edited by Paolo_Lasardi on Sun May 03, 2020 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:44 pm 
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Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
"That's why F1 drivers take some time on ovals" kind of summed it up really. An attitude of stereotyping F1 drivers as a whole over one innocent event. Even though Alonso was able to walk into Indy500 and nearly win...

Are you forgetting '63? Jim the rookie won that one........USAC the dinosaur just didn't let him have it. (Then he did again in '65, and T-Rex did....)
Three months ('63) later came back to make amends at Milwaukee, and did. '64 pole at Indy, but suspension broke.
And '66? Two F1 Indy rookies, Jackie would have, until lap 210 (oil pressure); Graham did, with Jim second.
Nige' (again, a rookie) in '93? Hafta' admit, he let himself get re-start snookered out of his when he shoulda' had it.

If you can drive a race car well, including using your head as opposed to not, you can drive a race car well. ;)

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:46 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, it is kids playing a video game - and it looks like kids playing a video game.

;)

That being said then there's no point in to staging anymore races and trying to make them seem authentic.


Yes.
It is a video game and it is not authentic.

But they try to make it appear authentic with the prayers and gentlemen start your engines leading up to the start of the race plus the normal commentary team then some of the drivers just crap on it.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:47 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, it is kids playing a video game - and it looks like kids playing a video game.

;)

That being said then there's no point in to staging anymore races and trying to make them seem authentic.


Yes.
It is a video game and it is not authentic.

But they try to make it appear authentic with the prayers and gentlemen start your engines leading up to the start of the race plus the normal commentary team then some of the drivers just crap on it.


See my answer to Exediron.


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:53 pm 
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jimclark wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
"That's why F1 drivers take some time on ovals" kind of summed it up really. An attitude of stereotyping F1 drivers as a whole over one innocent event. Even though Alonso was able to walk into Indy500 and nearly win...

Are you forgetting '63? Jim the rookie won that one........USAC the dinosaur just didn't let him have it. (Then he did again in '65, and T-Rex did....)
Three months ('63) later came back to make amends at Milwaukee, and did. '64 pole at Indy, but suspension broke.
And '66? Two F1 Indy rookies, Jackie would have, until lap 210 (oil pressure); Graham did, with Jim second.
Nige' (again, a rookie) in '93? Hafta' admit, he let himself get re-start snookered out of his when he shoulda' had it.

If you can drive a race car well, including using your head as opposed to not, you can drive a race car well. ;)

That was Simon Pagenaud that said that after being crashed out and blaming Norris who apparently was not to blame anyway.

Yes as you have highlighted it was a purely ignorant statement by Pagenaud perhaps showing a F1 chip on his shoulder after all he himself didn't make it, and then he didn't want this F1 driver just showing up and winning the race.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:57 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, it is kids playing a video game - and it looks like kids playing a video game.

;)

That being said then there's no point in to staging anymore races and trying to make them seem authentic.


Yes.
It is a video game and it is not authentic.

But they try to make it appear authentic with the prayers and gentlemen start your engines leading up to the start of the race plus the normal commentary team then some of the drivers just crap on it.


See my answer to Exediron.

Well also see my previous post about the two NASCAR drivers that lost their seats, they're still representing the series and bad press is still bad press.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 10:45 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
There is one difference -- and only one difference -- between a game and a sport. That difference is people taking it seriously. Football is a game, but I don't think it would fly for a striker to pick up the ball and place it in the net and then laugh about how it's just a game.

Up until the antics displayed by certain drivers, the IndyCar iRacing series was being treated like a sport. They brought it back down to the level of a game with their conduct. Obviously this was applauded by certain people such as the two of you, since it fits with your view that eSports aren't legitimate sporting events. But for the thousands (or even millions) of people who actually did take it as a serious sporting event, it was hugely insulting.

There is more than just "you're" one difference. Both can be taken seriously; I, myself, have.
I've played racing games, and raced (last in IMSA, 40 years ago); I've played video golf, and have actually golfed. (etc. etc,) When playing and participating, I'm serious during both.
'Enjoy/ed the heck out of both, game and sport. I can still distinguish the games from the sports, however.

Seriously (I ask sincerely), would you consider playing football from a chair, in front of a screen, a "sport"?.....as opposed to actually participating in the sport by playing on the field with REAL opponents? Take a minute. Be honest with yourself.
One is a game, and one is the sport.

A suggestion to those that can't differentiate: get out of your chairs and physically participate in something, anything; then play the same on a computer. e.g.: Go fishing, come home, and fish on your computer.
Then you also decide.
You might change your minds about what is what, and which is which. ;)

edit: BTW Ex, I'm not applauding anything. I don't watch other people play games. From what I've read though, it sounds like a rather childish act, even for a game. :)

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Last edited by jimclark on Sun May 03, 2020 11:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 11:02 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I fully understand what you mean and I respect that view. My comment related to the nature of a racing video game being different in that it is not real. There is no consequence of crashing, no danger, and hence morals are determined "in-game" by technical possibilities. Thus, it makes no sense to simulate real-world "games" in virtual ways. It is video gaming, not car racing.

Not surprisingly, successful e-sports disciplines do not mirror real-world sports. Instead, it is ego shooters (Dota, CS:GO, League of Legends, ...) or strategy games like Fortnite - games who cannot be/are not competetively played in the real world.

To believe that video game racing can follow the same rules and standards as motor racind is - I apolgize - naive.

I give you mucho credit sir (ma'am?). You said it far more eloquently than I. :)

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 12:23 am 
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jimclark wrote:
Seriously (I ask sincerely), would you consider playing football from a chair, in front of a screen, a "sport"?.....as opposed to actually participating in the sport by playing on the field with REAL opponents? Take a minute. Be honest with yourself.
One is a game, and one is the sport.

I would not, but I think the skills being put to use are completely different.

When playing a football game you're controlling the whole team in what is very much an abstraction of football. When you're playing a racing game however, you're using almost exactly the same skillset as you are when driving the actual car. The inputs you feel from the car are different, and there's no element of personal danger -- but from a skill point of view, driving the car in a simulator is very much the same skill as driving the car in real life.

Pressing X to tell your player to kick the ball is not the same thing as balancing throttle and steering on the limit.

(for perspective, I have never raced professionally but do race karts at the sharp end of a local league)

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 12:26 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I fully understand what you mean and I respect that view. My comment related to the nature of a racing video game being different in that it is not real. There is no consequence of crashing, no danger, and hence morals are determined "in-game" by technical possibilities. Thus, it makes no sense to simulate real-world "games" in virtual ways. It is video gaming, not car racing.

Not surprisingly, successful e-sports disciplines do not mirror real-world sports. Instead, it is ego shooters (Dota, CS:GO, League of Legends, ...) or strategy games like Fortnite - games who cannot be/are not competetively played in the real world.

To believe that video game racing can follow the same rules and standards as motor racind is - I apolgize - naive.

I can see this point of view, and I agree that the leagues that aren't 'real world replacements' are the only ones that have achieved a level of legitimacy so far.

I can't agree with the last sentence, however. Out of a field of 33 drivers, 31 of them managed to adhere to real racing etiquette. What Pagenaud and Ferrucci did wouldn't even cut the mustard as acceptable etiquette for a beer league, let alone an event that's being broadcast live to the world.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 2:55 am 
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Exediron wrote:
jimclark wrote:
Seriously (I ask sincerely), would you consider playing football from a chair, in front of a screen, a "sport"?.....as opposed to actually participating in the sport by playing on the field with REAL opponents? Take a minute. Be honest with yourself.
One is a game, and one is the sport.

(A) I would not, but I think the skills being put to use are completely different.

(B) When playing a football game you're controlling the whole team in what is very much an abstraction of football. When you're playing a racing game however, you're using almost exactly the same skillset as you are when driving the actual car. The inputs you feel from the car are different, and there's no element of personal danger -- but from a skill point of view, driving the car in a simulator is very much the same skill as driving the car in real life.

(C) Pressing X to tell your player to kick the ball is not the same thing as balancing throttle and steering on the limit.

(D) (for perspective, I have never raced professionally but do race karts at the sharp end of a local league)

You're digging yourself a deeper hole.... :uhoh:

(A) Agreed. The skills are different. One set for a two dimensional, non-physical (whatever games/sims give are still artificial) game; the other for the real thing, the sport. (As you admit in (B) )

(B) How are you not controlling the whole team when "playing" racing?I disagree about driving a game/sim being the same as a car. You don't feel the Gs, the contact patches, the vibrations in the game/sim. Even the best sims....'still artificial.

(C) You're correct. No it's not. Neither is " balancing throttle and steering on the limit" when your senses are not involved as in (B).

(D) I'm 65+, still dabble with the karts myself on occasion, and I find it hard to believe you state the comparison of a kick in the game to driving in racing. Why not the kick in the game to the real kick; and the driving in the game as opposed to even a kart.
There's no way, feeling what one feels in real life driving is matched by the best games/sims. I have been in a mega buck aircraft simulator and as good as they are, it is not like piloting the aircraft. I'm not talking "seriousness" or emotion here, I'm talking about the actual comparison of the feeling.
Something here just doesn't sit well. :frown:

(BTW, I wasn't a pro, my forays were a few rent-a-seats with a tiny, uber underfunded family team, paid for by my sweat in their shop when I made the time, at night, after work, like them. This culminated in two years of the Rolex 24 (The Pepsi Challenge at the time); a GTU Porsche which broke both years in the weeee hours of the morning.....:()

I know that what people perceive as "auto racing" has changed from (let's say, early to mid '90s) what it's roots were, to the kit/spec car (IndyCar, NASCAR) and BoP'd (sports car; F1 getting there too...DRS???) "leveled playing field", advertising show (not real racing) that it has become.
I can see how (not myself and people I know) the indoctrinated and initiated since that time can see a parallel 'twixt the real thing and sim stuff they're putting before us.....expecting (and receiving) acceptance. It's working because I see many posting excitedly about how good it is on numerous boards. 'Soon won't need the expense of the real thing.....teams, development, tracks/circuits, all the broadcasting crews.......why bother??? The fan base is accepting CGI........
('Just an observation, I noticed it from the start. Remember these words and observe for yourself. :))

"Real", real auto racing, is on it's way out anyway. 'T'is a shame. :(

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 4:10 am 
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After coming back to this thread I realised this post was very long and probably putting many off reading it, so I have highlighted the key points, with the context and analysis in non-highlighted so people can quickly skim through the salient parts.

This thread seems to have divided into two fronts very quickly, those who following / started following e-racing and those who only enjoy the real world side of things.

I'll start off by saying that I don't follow e-racing, I've seen clips of it - and obviously saw this incident, but at the same time I don't watch motorsports other than Formula 1, so it's nothing specifically against e-racing.

First, there seems to be the division between "it's analogous to real racing" vs "it's just a computer game" argument.

This is an argument that can go on forever becauseneither side is wrong, but neither side is right.

Firstly, sporting computing games broadly fall into spectrum between two types, simulation and arcade.

Fully arcade are your Mariokart style games and are basically full of gimmicks to make it entertaining and keep the racing close between different skill levels.In arcade style games, the winner is only part dependent on skill, with random chance playing a big part.

Fully simulation games will be like iRacing, where the game's physics and rules will attempt to recreate the real world experience as realistically and accurately as possible. There will be no gimmicks, and the race result will be fully dependent on skill (and circumstance - but not random chance).

The winner of an iRacing race will be as deserved as the winner of a Formula 1 race. In fact, there is an argument to be made that from a driver perspective it's more deserved as non driver events like random breakdowns, botched pitstops, bad strategy calls won't have the same effect on the racing (depending on the settings).

However, this is only part of the equation - the argument about 'it's just a computer game' boils down to more than just about skill, it's about translatable skill. And this is where the argument is a lot more muddy. e-Racing is not a 100% fit for real racing as things like physical danger, G-forces, real world feel of the conditions are not present. At the same time, there are skills required for e-Racing that are not required in Formula 1 (for example, screens - even the multi monitor set ups of the pros - are not completely the same as in real life as there's no parallax)It's a Venn diagram of "skills needed for real racing", "skills needed for e-racing" and "skills needed for both"

The skills needed for both though, is the biggest - and this has been seen by the fact that top level e-racers have made the jump to the real world and been competitive and even beaten established racers in events like the Race of Champions. It's also evident in the fact that drivers like Max Verstappen and Lando Norris have successful e-racing careers.The key skills like racing lines and car control are very well simulated in games - and if they weren't then the simulators the F1 teams have at their factories wouldn't be such useful tools.

Ultimately, if e-racing doesn't float your boat, that's fair enough. But at the same time dismissing it as "just a computer game" is equally ridiculous.E-racing with simulation games is a sport in its own right and rewards skill to exactly the same degree that real racing does.

The second point being made here is that the drivers who deliberately sabotaged the other drivers races by taking them out didn't really do anything serious because there weren't any dangers, and these are very far of the mark.

Chess is a sport without any dangers, but if a competitor went and tipped over the board mid game because his opponent was winning, they'd be expelled from taking part in future events.

I'm not suggesting that these drivers should be expelled from Indy, but my point is that just because no one was hurt doesn't mean what they didn't wasn't a serious event. Let's step back and hypothetically pose the scenario that Indy develops Ironman style suits the drivers can wear that makes them impervious to any injuries. They also invent self healing cars that at the push of a button can fix themselves for zero cost after the race has ended.

That would mean in the real Indy 500, the consequences of taking another driver out would be the same as in an e-racing event. But if it happened, I don't think people's attitude would be "no one could get hurt, there wasn't any damage"

The issue isn't about safety, it's about sportsmanship. You may not care about the e-racing event, but the people competing in it and the spectators do. Loads of people don't care about the real Indy 500, or Formula 1 and they don't care when controversial events that you care about happen in those series. It doesn't mean that your complaints aren't valid.

And it be pointed out that the drivers who took the action to take their competitors out were clearly invested a lot as they were incensed at a driver from another series being the one to win it - when they had the arguments of "it's just a video game simulation, not's not perfectly reflective of real Indy" to fall back on.



Last edited by Alienturnedhuman on Mon May 04, 2020 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 4:54 am 
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Is this the same race Scott McLaughlin won because of the Ferrucci and Askew crash? Doesn't really fit into the "Indycar drivers don't like non-Indy drivers winning" stereotype if it is?


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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 6:03 am 
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jimclark wrote:
You're digging yourself a deeper hole.... :uhoh:

(A) Agreed. The skills are different. One set for a two dimensional, non-physical (whatever games/sims give are still artificial) game; the other for the real thing, the sport. (As you admit in (B) )

(B) How are you not controlling the whole team when "playing" racing?I disagree about driving a game/sim being the same as a car. You don't feel the Gs, the contact patches, the vibrations in the game/sim. Even the best sims....'still artificial.

(C) You're correct. No it's not. Neither is " balancing throttle and steering on the limit" when your senses are not involved as in (B).

(D) I'm 65+, still dabble with the karts myself on occasion, and I find it hard to believe you state the comparison of a kick in the game to driving in racing. Why not the kick in the game to the real kick; and the driving in the game as opposed to even a kart.
There's no way, feeling what one feels in real life driving is matched by the best games/sims. I have been in a mega buck aircraft simulator and as good as they are, it is not like piloting the aircraft. I'm not talking "seriousness" or emotion here, I'm talking about the actual comparison of the feeling.
Something here just doesn't sit well. :frown:

(BTW, I wasn't a pro, my forays were a few rent-a-seats with a tiny, uber underfunded family team, paid for by my sweat in their shop when I made the time, at night, after work, like them. This culminated in two years of the Rolex 24 (The Pepsi Challenge at the time); a GTU Porsche which broke both years in the weeee hours of the morning.....:()

I know that what people perceive as "auto racing" has changed from (let's say, early to mid '90s) what it's roots were, to the kit/spec car (IndyCar, NASCAR) and BoP'd (sports car; F1 getting there too...DRS???) "leveled playing field", advertising show (not real racing) that it has become.
I can see how (not myself and people I know) the indoctrinated and initiated since that time can see a parallel 'twixt the real thing and sim stuff they're putting before us.....expecting (and receiving) acceptance. It's working because I see many posting excitedly about how good it is on numerous boards. 'Soon won't need the expense of the real thing.....teams, development, tracks/circuits, all the broadcasting crews.......why bother??? The fan base is accepting CGI........
('Just an observation, I noticed it from the start. Remember these words and observe for yourself. :))

"Real", real auto racing, is on it's way out anyway. 'T'is a shame. :(

I respect your right to have your own opinion. Unfortunately, it's clear that we see this issue from a fundamentally different viewpoint. If you don't see how there's a gulf of difference between:

a) Pressing a button and your virtual character does the work for you

and

b) Going through all the same physical actions as you would in the real car, absent the forces acting on your body

Then we really aren't going to reach a point in the middle where we find any agreement.

The bottom line is that virtual racing is not the real thing, and it will never be the real thing. But to me it is still a sport, and deserves to be treated as one.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 9:07 am 
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On a similar sort of line is something like fly-by-wire (sorry, not sure how to punctuate that!) substantially different to braking on a sim rig? Or how about power steering? Flappy paddle gear changes? Almost all the driver inputs on an F1 car are electronically interpreted rather than mechanical anyway.


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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 9:25 am 
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It was a fantastic race, ruined by a complete idiot and spoilt brat. Yes it's iracing, not real racing, but the effort so many drivers have put in to this, not to mention the TV coverage, commentators and sponsors are putting money in to this too.

I don't think there's a single person who believes his story about simply heading for the pits.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 9:42 am 
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In other news the F1 offering this weekend was great. I'd recommend anyone who hasn't done so yet to take a look.


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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 10:08 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
In other news the F1 offering this weekend was great. I'd recommend anyone who hasn't done so yet to take a look.


Yes, it was an incredible battle.

Looking forward to the next Australian Supercar race this Wednesday. They've been some of the best over the past month or so. I believe Lando Norris has a wild card entry and they're heading to Spa!!!!!

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 12:13 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
jimclark wrote:
Seriously (I ask sincerely), would you consider playing football from a chair, in front of a screen, a "sport"?.....as opposed to actually participating in the sport by playing on the field with REAL opponents? Take a minute. Be honest with yourself.
One is a game, and one is the sport.

I would not, but I think the skills being put to use are completely different.

When playing a football game you're controlling the whole team in what is very much an abstraction of football. When you're playing a racing game however, you're using almost exactly the same skillset as you are when driving the actual car. The inputs you feel from the car are different, and there's no element of personal danger -- but from a skill point of view, driving the car in a simulator is very much the same skill as driving the car in real life.

Pressing X to tell your player to kick the ball is not the same thing as balancing throttle and steering on the limit.

(for perspective, I have never raced professionally but do race karts at the sharp end of a local league)

Yeah I competed in karts for 20 years, to say we need to get out of our chairs and compete in something was perhaps a bit condenscending.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 12:16 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I fully understand what you mean and I respect that view. My comment related to the nature of a racing video game being different in that it is not real. There is no consequence of crashing, no danger, and hence morals are determined "in-game" by technical possibilities. Thus, it makes no sense to simulate real-world "games" in virtual ways. It is video gaming, not car racing.

Not surprisingly, successful e-sports disciplines do not mirror real-world sports. Instead, it is ego shooters (Dota, CS:GO, League of Legends, ...) or strategy games like Fortnite - games who cannot be/are not competetively played in the real world.

To believe that video game racing can follow the same rules and standards as motor racind is - I apolgize - naive.

I can see this point of view, and I agree that the leagues that aren't 'real world replacements' are the only ones that have achieved a level of legitimacy so far.

I can't agree with the last sentence, however. Out of a field of 33 drivers, 31 of them managed to adhere to real racing etiquette. What Pagenaud and Ferrucci did wouldn't even cut the mustard as acceptable etiquette for a beer league, let alone an event that's being broadcast live to the world.

It seems that Autosport share the same view as us.

https://www.autosport.com/motorsport/fe ... pportunity

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 12:25 pm 
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Charles LeBrad wrote:
Is this the same race Scott McLaughlin won because of the Ferrucci and Askew crash? Doesn't really fit into the "Indycar drivers don't like non-Indy drivers winning" stereotype if it is?

He is due to take part in some races this year, also Pagenaud referenced Norris being a F1 driver before he waited for him on the track before taking him out and even told Norris he didn't want him to win the race.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 12:29 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
It was a fantastic race, ruined by a complete idiot and spoilt brat. Yes it's iracing, not real racing, but the effort so many drivers have put in to this, not to mention the TV coverage, commentators and sponsors are putting money in to this too.

I don't think there's a single person who believes his story about simply heading for the pits.

Especially when he went back onto the track saying he was going to sabotage Norris' race.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 1:17 pm 
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Here is the view of an actual professional racing driver to sim racing, Brad Phlipott gets introduced at 9:00 and gets asked the question at 12:20.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdjZrD6 ... bcastemail

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 1:25 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
In other news the F1 offering this weekend was great. I'd recommend anyone who hasn't done so yet to take a look.


It was the first esports race I’d watched properly and I really enjoyed it, will be watching again. A great fight for the lead between Albon and Leclerc.

(I also had a bet on Albon to win so that was also good news)


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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 3:08 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
jimclark wrote:
You're digging yourself a deeper hole.... :uhoh:

(A) Agreed. The skills are different. One set for a two dimensional, non-physical (whatever games/sims give are still artificial) game; the other for the real thing, the sport. (As you admit in (B) )

(B) How are you not controlling the whole team when "playing" racing?I disagree about driving a game/sim being the same as a car. You don't feel the Gs, the contact patches, the vibrations in the game/sim. Even the best sims....'still artificial.

(C) You're correct. No it's not. Neither is " balancing throttle and steering on the limit" when your senses are not involved as in (B).

(D) I'm 65+, still dabble with the karts myself on occasion, and I find it hard to believe you state the comparison of a kick in the game to driving in racing. Why not the kick in the game to the real kick; and the driving in the game as opposed to even a kart.
There's no way, feeling what one feels in real life driving is matched by the best games/sims. I have been in a mega buck aircraft simulator and as good as they are, it is not like piloting the aircraft. I'm not talking "seriousness" or emotion here, I'm talking about the actual comparison of the feeling.
Something here just doesn't sit well. :frown:

(BTW, I wasn't a pro, my forays were a few rent-a-seats with a tiny, uber underfunded family team, paid for by my sweat in their shop when I made the time, at night, after work, like them. This culminated in two years of the Rolex 24 (The Pepsi Challenge at the time); a GTU Porsche which broke both years in the weeee hours of the morning.....:()

I know that what people perceive as "auto racing" has changed from (let's say, early to mid '90s) what it's roots were, to the kit/spec car (IndyCar, NASCAR) and BoP'd (sports car; F1 getting there too...DRS???) "leveled playing field", advertising show (not real racing) that it has become.
I can see how (not myself and people I know) the indoctrinated and initiated since that time can see a parallel 'twixt the real thing and sim stuff they're putting before us.....expecting (and receiving) acceptance. It's working because I see many posting excitedly about how good it is on numerous boards. 'Soon won't need the expense of the real thing.....teams, development, tracks/circuits, all the broadcasting crews.......why bother??? The fan base is accepting CGI........
('Just an observation, I noticed it from the start. Remember these words and observe for yourself. :))

"Real", real auto racing, is on it's way out anyway. 'T'is a shame. :(

I respect your right to have your own opinion. Unfortunately, it's clear that we see this issue from a fundamentally different viewpoint. If you don't see how there's a gulf of difference between:

a) Pressing a button and your virtual character does the work for you

and

b) Going through all the same physical actions as you would in the real car, absent the forces acting on your body

Then we really aren't going to reach a point in the middle where we find any agreement.

The bottom line is that virtual racing is not the real thing, and it will never be the real thing. But to me it is still a sport, and deserves to be treated as one.


Agreed, it is a sport and is taken quite serious by many. Which is why so many teams sponsor an esports team themselves. It will never replace the real thing but at the moment it’s the best option for racing. Let’s not forget F1 teams use simulator to further their efforts while not on track so the correlation between sim & reality aren’t that far apart.

Many F1 drivers are live streaming on twitch.tv and you can ask them yourself what are their thoughts on sim racing. Charles leclerc himself stated live on stream that the skills are the same minus the physical strain on the body. He also stated that the mental focus required is much higher as you can’t rely on the feel of the car..... look at the most recent race between him and albon both drivers were dripping sweat and shaking after the race.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 4:18 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Here is the view of an actual professional racing driver to sim racing, Brad Phlipott gets introduced at 9:00 and gets asked the question at 12:20.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdjZrD6 ... bcastemail

Go to 42:00 for talk on the Norris incident.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 6:32 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
(I also had a bet on Albon to win so that was also good news)

This incidentally raises a very serious issue about Pagenaud's conduct. How many people do you suppose bet on the outcome of the virtual 500? And out of those, how many do you suppose bet on Lando?

People say there wasn't any money involved, but there almost certainly was.

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