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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:59 am 
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https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14910 ... h-decision

No matter what Seidl says I really can't see how it's ethical or appropriate for a team owned by the Bahrani royal family to be claiming state aid. I'm surprised they've been able to get away with minimal press. The Football teams got hammered and forced to reverse their decisions.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:10 am 
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Well said. It just shows what's important to so man billionaire owners in the world. Richard Branson is another such person.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:41 am 
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Leaves a bad taste when there are so many people in genuine need falling through the net due to bureaucracy e.g. where a particular staff member is not eligible to be furloughed because they changed jobs after an arbitrary cut-off date, even though their current employer is furloughing all other staff.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:56 am 
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this is an unbelievable mess worldwide.
wait until a year from now, when every tax known to man in the states, along with every "fee" goes through the roof to pay for this


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:06 pm 
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pc27b wrote:
this is an unbelievable mess worldwide.
wait until a year from now, when every tax known to man in the states, along with every "fee" goes through the roof to pay for this


Yeah it kind of feels like we've had the 9.5 scale earthquake in the form of the virus & while we're cleaning up the waste of that we we've got one eye watching the coastline for the economic Tsunami we all fear is approaching

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:38 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/149100/seidl-explains-difficult-mclaren-furlough-decision

No matter what Seidl says I really can't see how it's ethical or appropriate for a team owned by the Bahrani royal family to be claiming state aid. I'm surprised they've been able to get away with minimal press. The Football teams got hammered and forced to reverse their decisions.


Apart from Ozil!

It seems wrong indeed, but the rich don't stay rich by spending their own money...

From the article though, it seems they generally follow the path I've seen elsewhere, for example my company tried to take every measure like only furloughing some non-essential or high health risk staff, announcing pay cuts (this hurt), stopped the dividend payments to the fat cats, stopped non-essential investments, saved from bills (including milk, tea and biscuits I guess!) when everyone works from home etc. But we are in a sector that is indeed still generating some income, while McLaren has seemingly none.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:11 pm 
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Renault have furloughed staff and they are part owned by the French state

As Zac Brown said at the time, they have a duty to their shareholders. Some of the football teams are going to spend £50million+ on a player at the first opportunity whilst claiming government assistance for the cleaner and kitman

The entire scheme is a mess. You have people working 40-50 hours a week doing an 'essential job' earning less than people who are being paid to stay at home.

As for the self employed. If you averaged profits of £49,500pa over the past 3 years you are going to get the full £2500 per month. If you averaged £50,500 over the same period you get nothing.

You can also claim it from multiple employers and/or do another job whilst being furloughed as long as its not for the same company. Absolute madness


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:15 pm 
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I guess the lack of backlash against McLaren is because much of the general public is unaware of who owns them. They are seen as a purely British company.

A lot of the decisions being made here by various large companies show a real lack of awareness of how much damage they are doing to their reputation by taking taxpayers' money rather than digging into their own pockets. Many executives can think only of the balance sheet for the next quarter and are completely out of touch with the concerns of the public. Richard Branson in particular has completely soiled his public image, trying to convince us that he lives in the British Virgin Islands for the nice scenery rather than for tax purposes is beyond laughable.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:23 pm 
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Plus they are making PPE equipment which is excellent.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:01 pm 
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j man wrote:
I guess the lack of backlash against McLaren is because much of the general public is unaware of who owns them. They are seen as a purely British company.

A lot of the decisions being made here by various large companies show a real lack of awareness of how much damage they are doing to their reputation by taking taxpayers' money rather than digging into their own pockets. Many executives can think only of the balance sheet for the next quarter and are completely out of touch with the concerns of the public. Richard Branson in particular has completely soiled his public image, trying to convince us that he lives in the British Virgin Islands for the nice scenery rather than for tax purposes is beyond laughable.


Well, it is a tad nicer than Slough or Hull in all fairness!


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:19 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/149100/seidl-explains-difficult-mclaren-furlough-decision

No matter what Seidl says I really can't see how it's ethical or appropriate for a team owned by the Bahrani royal family to be claiming state aid. I'm surprised they've been able to get away with minimal press. The Football teams got hammered and forced to reverse their decisions.


Do you realise outside of F1 Mclaren have other staff as well, also because the Bahraini royal family own Mclaren don't mean they are going to throw money away.

No matter how much you have you can't cover staff costs when the company is not earning.

Football teams get hammered for continuing to pay footballers and the furlough lower paid workers.

Also most of the outrage is from manipulating the public as far as I know no government minister in the UK has taken a pay cut.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:44 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/149100/seidl-explains-difficult-mclaren-furlough-decision

No matter what Seidl says I really can't see how it's ethical or appropriate for a team owned by the Bahrani royal family to be claiming state aid. I'm surprised they've been able to get away with minimal press. The Football teams got hammered and forced to reverse their decisions.


Do you realise outside of F1 Mclaren have other staff as well, also because the Bahraini royal family own Mclaren don't mean they are going to throw money away.

No matter how much you have you can't cover staff costs when the company is not earning.

Football teams get hammered for continuing to pay footballers and the furlough lower paid workers.

Also most of the outrage is from manipulating the public as far as I know no government minister in the UK has taken a pay cut.


And why should they? What would that help?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:37 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/149100/seidl-explains-difficult-mclaren-furlough-decision

No matter what Seidl says I really can't see how it's ethical or appropriate for a team owned by the Bahrani royal family to be claiming state aid. I'm surprised they've been able to get away with minimal press. The Football teams got hammered and forced to reverse their decisions.


Do you realise outside of F1 Mclaren have other staff as well, also because the Bahraini royal family own Mclaren don't mean they are going to throw money away.

No matter how much you have you can't cover staff costs when the company is not earning.

Football teams get hammered for continuing to pay footballers and the furlough lower paid workers.

Also most of the outrage is from manipulating the public as far as I know no government minister in the UK has taken a pay cut.


And why should they? What would that help?


I think I read in the news that they not only not take a paycut, but they got an extra allowance of something like £10k each to work from home! They are rubbing it in a little bit, for me the leaders should lead by example. But this is not the main point of this thread.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:22 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/149100/seidl-explains-difficult-mclaren-furlough-decision

No matter what Seidl says I really can't see how it's ethical or appropriate for a team owned by the Bahrani royal family to be claiming state aid. I'm surprised they've been able to get away with minimal press. The Football teams got hammered and forced to reverse their decisions.


Do you realise outside of F1 Mclaren have other staff as well, also because the Bahraini royal family own Mclaren don't mean they are going to throw money away.

No matter how much you have you can't cover staff costs when the company is not earning.

Football teams get hammered for continuing to pay footballers and the furlough lower paid workers.

Also most of the outrage is from manipulating the public as far as I know no government minister in the UK has taken a pay cut.


And why should they? What would that help?


I think I read in the news that they not only not take a paycut, but they got an extra allowance of something like £10k each to work from home! They are rubbing it in a little bit, for me the leaders should lead by example. But this is not the main point of this thread.


They don't get given an extra 10k. There is a fund of up to 10k they can use to help get their staff members setup to work from home. I work for a university and it's a pretty similar situation. Our department was given access to money to buy desks, laptops etc for those that would need it to work from home. No MP has just had an extra 10k just put on their salary.

As for setting an example. I don't really understand? People still working are still getting paid. Government ministers are still working.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:34 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/149100/seidl-explains-difficult-mclaren-furlough-decision

No matter what Seidl says I really can't see how it's ethical or appropriate for a team owned by the Bahrani royal family to be claiming state aid. I'm surprised they've been able to get away with minimal press. The Football teams got hammered and forced to reverse their decisions.


Do you realise outside of F1 Mclaren have other staff as well, also because the Bahraini royal family own Mclaren don't mean they are going to throw money away.

No matter how much you have you can't cover staff costs when the company is not earning.

Football teams get hammered for continuing to pay footballers and the furlough lower paid workers.

Also most of the outrage is from manipulating the public as far as I know no government minister in the UK has taken a pay cut.


And why should they? What would that help?


I think I read in the news that they not only not take a paycut, but they got an extra allowance of something like £10k each to work from home! They are rubbing it in a little bit, for me the leaders should lead by example. But this is not the main point of this thread.


They don't get given an extra 10k. There is a fund of up to 10k they can use to help get their staff members setup to work from home. I work for a university and it's a pretty similar situation. Our department was given access to money to buy desks, laptops etc for those that would need it to work from home. No MP has just had an extra 10k just put on their salary.

As for setting an example. I don't really understand? People still working are still getting paid. Government ministers are still working.


That's not what I wrote, they don't just put £10k in their salary, it is an allowance, they can claim it. And they will.

My post is clear, the leaders should lead by example. In this hard times that people lose their jobs, to allow themselves so much money to buy a laptop, it feels like rubbing it in. You don't really have to agree


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:27 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Do you realise outside of F1 Mclaren have other staff as well, also because the Bahraini royal family own Mclaren don't mean they are going to throw money away.

No matter how much you have you can't cover staff costs when the company is not earning.

Football teams get hammered for continuing to pay footballers and the furlough lower paid workers.

Also most of the outrage is from manipulating the public as far as I know no government minister in the UK has taken a pay cut.


And why should they? What would that help?


I think I read in the news that they not only not take a paycut, but they got an extra allowance of something like £10k each to work from home! They are rubbing it in a little bit, for me the leaders should lead by example. But this is not the main point of this thread.


They don't get given an extra 10k. There is a fund of up to 10k they can use to help get their staff members setup to work from home. I work for a university and it's a pretty similar situation. Our department was given access to money to buy desks, laptops etc for those that would need it to work from home. No MP has just had an extra 10k just put on their salary.

As for setting an example. I don't really understand? People still working are still getting paid. Government ministers are still working.


That's not what I wrote, they don't just put £10k in their salary, it is an allowance, they can claim it. And they will.

My post is clear, the leaders should lead by example. In this hard times that people lose their jobs, to allow themselves so much money to buy a laptop, it feels like rubbing it in. You don't really have to agree


But the 10k allowance to claim isn’t for their own personal use. It’s for them to ensure that staff who work for them have equipment to be able to work from home. Without the staff working from home, it’ll be hard for MPs to serve their constituents properly, which in some cases could lead to Some pretty nasty consequences.

As for ministers not taking a pay cut: I imagine someone like Matt Hancock is working more/harder than ever. Should he take a pay cut?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:39 am 
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JN23 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

And why should they? What would that help?


I think I read in the news that they not only not take a paycut, but they got an extra allowance of something like £10k each to work from home! They are rubbing it in a little bit, for me the leaders should lead by example. But this is not the main point of this thread.


They don't get given an extra 10k. There is a fund of up to 10k they can use to help get their staff members setup to work from home. I work for a university and it's a pretty similar situation. Our department was given access to money to buy desks, laptops etc for those that would need it to work from home. No MP has just had an extra 10k just put on their salary.

As for setting an example. I don't really understand? People still working are still getting paid. Government ministers are still working.


That's not what I wrote, they don't just put £10k in their salary, it is an allowance, they can claim it. And they will.

My post is clear, the leaders should lead by example. In this hard times that people lose their jobs, to allow themselves so much money to buy a laptop, it feels like rubbing it in. You don't really have to agree


But the 10k allowance to claim isn’t for their own personal use. It’s for them to ensure that staff who work for them have equipment to be able to work from home. Without the staff working from home, it’ll be hard for MPs to serve their constituents properly, which in some cases could lead to Some pretty nasty consequences.

As for ministers not taking a pay cut: I imagine someone like Matt Hancock is working more/harder than ever. Should he take a pay cut?


I thought the allowance for their staff was separate, something like £25k. The £10k was on top. Unless I got it completely wrong, in which case I apologise.

I wasn't the one asking for MP's taking cuts by the way, that post was not mine


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:06 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:

I think I read in the news that they not only not take a paycut, but they got an extra allowance of something like £10k each to work from home! They are rubbing it in a little bit, for me the leaders should lead by example. But this is not the main point of this thread.


They don't get given an extra 10k. There is a fund of up to 10k they can use to help get their staff members setup to work from home. I work for a university and it's a pretty similar situation. Our department was given access to money to buy desks, laptops etc for those that would need it to work from home. No MP has just had an extra 10k just put on their salary.

As for setting an example. I don't really understand? People still working are still getting paid. Government ministers are still working.


That's not what I wrote, they don't just put £10k in their salary, it is an allowance, they can claim it. And they will.

My post is clear, the leaders should lead by example. In this hard times that people lose their jobs, to allow themselves so much money to buy a laptop, it feels like rubbing it in. You don't really have to agree


But the 10k allowance to claim isn’t for their own personal use. It’s for them to ensure that staff who work for them have equipment to be able to work from home. Without the staff working from home, it’ll be hard for MPs to serve their constituents properly, which in some cases could lead to Some pretty nasty consequences.

As for ministers not taking a pay cut: I imagine someone like Matt Hancock is working more/harder than ever. Should he take a pay cut?


I thought the allowance for their staff was separate, something like £25k. The £10k was on top. Unless I got it completely wrong, in which case I apologise.

I wasn't the one asking for MP's taking cuts by the way, that post was not mine


No problem :thumbup: haven’t heard of the 25k thing myself.

Yep you’re right you weren’t calling for MPs to take paycuts, sorry about that.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:10 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Do you realise outside of F1 Mclaren have other staff as well, also because the Bahraini royal family own Mclaren don't mean they are going to throw money away.

No matter how much you have you can't cover staff costs when the company is not earning.

Football teams get hammered for continuing to pay footballers and the furlough lower paid workers.

Also most of the outrage is from manipulating the public as far as I know no government minister in the UK has taken a pay cut.


And why should they? What would that help?


I think I read in the news that they not only not take a paycut, but they got an extra allowance of something like £10k each to work from home! They are rubbing it in a little bit, for me the leaders should lead by example. But this is not the main point of this thread.


They don't get given an extra 10k. There is a fund of up to 10k they can use to help get their staff members setup to work from home. I work for a university and it's a pretty similar situation. Our department was given access to money to buy desks, laptops etc for those that would need it to work from home. No MP has just had an extra 10k just put on their salary.

As for setting an example. I don't really understand? People still working are still getting paid. Government ministers are still working.


That's not what I wrote, they don't just put £10k in their salary, it is an allowance, they can claim it. And they will.

My post is clear, the leaders should lead by example. In this hard times that people lose their jobs, to allow themselves so much money to buy a laptop, it feels like rubbing it in. You don't really have to agree


It's not them allowing themselves these things. It's an independent body that decides MPs pay benefits etc and they decide. MPs run an office. It's reasonable to expect there to be some costs involved in getting staff members setup to work from home. Such an allowance being given has been pretty common place in the public sector. This isn't a case of MPs giving themselves special treatment.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:15 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/149100/seidl-explains-difficult-mclaren-furlough-decision

No matter what Seidl says I really can't see how it's ethical or appropriate for a team owned by the Bahrani royal family to be claiming state aid. I'm surprised they've been able to get away with minimal press. The Football teams got hammered and forced to reverse their decisions.


Do you realise outside of F1 Mclaren have other staff as well, also because the Bahraini royal family own Mclaren don't mean they are going to throw money away.

No matter how much you have you can't cover staff costs when the company is not earning.

Football teams get hammered for continuing to pay footballers and the furlough lower paid workers.

Also most of the outrage is from manipulating the public as far as I know no government minister in the UK has taken a pay cut.


And why should they? What would that help?


I think you don't realise all members of the cabinet are multi millionaires.

The Health Secretary alone made millions last year from his company outside of government what has been his contribution to the NHS?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:28 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/149100/seidl-explains-difficult-mclaren-furlough-decision

No matter what Seidl says I really can't see how it's ethical or appropriate for a team owned by the Bahrani royal family to be claiming state aid. I'm surprised they've been able to get away with minimal press. The Football teams got hammered and forced to reverse their decisions.


Do you realise outside of F1 Mclaren have other staff as well, also because the Bahraini royal family own Mclaren don't mean they are going to throw money away.

No matter how much you have you can't cover staff costs when the company is not earning.

Football teams get hammered for continuing to pay footballers and the furlough lower paid workers.

Also most of the outrage is from manipulating the public as far as I know no government minister in the UK has taken a pay cut.


And why should they? What would that help?


I think you don't realise all members of the cabinet are multi millionaires.

The Health Secretary alone made millions last year from his company outside of government what has been his contribution to the NHS?


Pretty sure I do realise that.

I assume that company paid tax? If there still working then they still have every right to claim their salary.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:58 pm 
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Take into account the Rees-Mogg, one of the wealthiest people in parliament and Brexit supporter, moved one of his major companies to the Republic of Ireland, just prior to Brexit. That keeps it in the EU.

We're all in it together!!!!!!!!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:30 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Take into account the Rees-Mogg, one of the wealthiest people in parliament and Brexit supporter, moved one of his major companies to the Republic of Ireland, just prior to Brexit. That keeps it in the EU.

We're all in it together!!!!!!!!


is that kind of like trump complaining about the chinese, while his clothing line is made there ?

for the record i'm sick and tired of both parties pointing fingers at each other in the states. its an understatement to say we have massive, massive problems at the moment, and more to come in the months ahead. work it out together, best they can.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:38 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Take into account the Rees-Mogg, one of the wealthiest people in parliament and Brexit supporter, moved one of his major companies to the Republic of Ireland, just prior to Brexit. That keeps it in the EU.

We're all in it together!!!!!!!!


I'm not generally a big supporter of this government so I've been making myself sick defending them on this thread but that's not really accurate either.

The company is as based in the UK as it ever was. An additional office was opened in ROI but even before that there were offices elsewhere in Europe and in Singapore I think.

So it wasn't moved. More expanded.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:04 pm 
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Does anyone know whether any of the teams are more active than others during this period. Has anyone heard whether are any of the richer teams keeping people working and taking the opportunity to gain an advantage over the competition?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:06 pm 
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WHoff78 wrote:
Does anyone know whether any of the teams are more active than others during this period. Has anyone heard whether are any of the richer teams keeping people working and taking the opportunity to gain an advantage over the competition?


I could be wrong but I think they are on a factory lockdown like in the summer break.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:14 pm 
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WHoff78 wrote:
Does anyone know whether any of the teams are more active than others during this period. Has anyone heard whether are any of the richer teams keeping people working and taking the opportunity to gain an advantage over the competition?

Complete lock-down.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:23 pm 
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Clarky wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
Does anyone know whether any of the teams are more active than others during this period. Has anyone heard whether are any of the richer teams keeping people working and taking the opportunity to gain an advantage over the competition?

Complete lock-down.


I also could be wrong but I thought they had to nominate a period to shut down and could operate as normal outside of that?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:39 pm 
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I think there's a reasonable chance that a lot of designers are keeping busy at home. CAD type software and computational fluid dynamics will surely be going along at a fair rate.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:59 am 
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The furloughing system isn't a bonus or complimentary Corona present, it's a system of ensuring money continues to flow through the economy as it would do under normal circumstances. If you look at the USA where over 20 million people have been made unemployed, that's the chaos it is designed to prevent. Because this isn't a normal economic downturn (the job security is threatened due to people having to remain in their homes) once the pandemic has passed things will be able to return to normal (and then natural free market forces can decide which companies survive)

Without the furloughing scheme, many companies would simply lay off their staff (probably not McLaren, but the number of companies who wouldn't would be miniscule to those that would, and it's impossible to set up a means tested system for this sort of thing, especially at short notice) - if the UK suddenly saw comparable layoffs (5 million would be comparable to the US figure) it would not only be harmful to those laid off, but it would have a domino effect across the economy as rents would be missed, mortgages would collapse and the shops and services would lose a huge chunk of income.

The UK has the most right wing government in power post war, and for them to effectively implement a state based income system - the most economically left wing idea in modern politics - should demonstrate how necessary it is.

These companies - foreign owned or not - don't sit on a huge stack of money that they pay their workforce from, it's all just in time, not just with supplies but also with their income and outgoings. If the money in dries up, then so does the source for the wages. Very few companies are like Apple, sitting on billions of dollars of cash reserves.

And while the Bahraini royal family certainly is sitting of stacks of money, they bought McLaren as an investment - and if it suddenly became unprofitable they would cut it loose. They wouldn't just pay people's wages out of charity... (I'm not defending that from a moral point of view, I'm just saying what billionaires do when they suddenly have a financial black hole on their books)


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 2:44 pm 
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USA isn't a very good example. They currently have 30million+ new claimants since March and people on low incomes are now actually earning more money than when they worked full time. Plenty of economists are going nuts about it

Between furlough and government employees, in the UK the government is currently responsible for the wages of more than half of the workforce. All for a disease that is rarely serious for anyone under 50

Back to the thread... In terms of ownership, £150million is peanuts to the owners (Bahrain wealth fund Latifi, ojjeh et al) . Mclaren would have taken a far great hit in 2007 with the cheating penalties added to the loss in sponsorship value. Not to mention the disastrous Honda years

If a football team behaved in the same manner Mclaren currently are there'd be uproar


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 3:14 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16949
Zazu wrote:
USA isn't a very good example. They currently have 30million+ new claimants since March and people on low incomes are now actually earning more money than when they worked full time. Plenty of economists are going nuts about it

Between furlough and government employees, in the UK the government is currently responsible for the wages of more than half of the workforce. All for a disease that is rarely serious for anyone under 50

Back to the thread... In terms of ownership, £150million is peanuts to the owners (Bahrain wealth fund Latifi, ojjeh et al) . Mclaren would have taken a far great hit in 2007 with the cheating penalties added to the loss in sponsorship value. Not to mention the disastrous Honda years

If a football team behaved in the same manner Mclaren currently are there'd be uproar


Well we know because football teams did, there was outrage and they had to reverse it. No outrage for Mclaren so the Bahraini royal family gets away with being subsidised by the British tax payer. It is morally wrong and as fans we do the sport a disservice by excusing such reprehensible behaviour.


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