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 Post subject: Mercedes team dynamics
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:27 pm 
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While the off-season is (still) on, I've been reading a lot of new (and rehashed) interviews with (admittedly mostly British and Mercedes folks) people talking about Lewis Hamilton, and today I read a quote from Wolff which made me do a double-take: “I want to do my part to ensure that Lewis Hamilton wins the seventh title.”

Does that mean that Bottas should just stop trying? This is frankly a Flavio/Fernando or Horner/Verstappen (or even Dennis/Hamilton) type of comment, where the other driver isn't even a concern for the Team Principal.

Now a lot of people beat Schumacher and Alonso and other past champions (and even Verstappen/Vettel sometimes) with the favoured-over-team-mate stick - how does Hamilton escape that? I mean there have been multiple instances where he has benefited directly from team-orders, and yet he's considered "unblemished" (admittedly by one of the Merc execs, so make of it what you will) while the others are somehow not. Not that I disagree with TOs - am curious to know what other people think.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:54 pm 
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I think it's fair to say that certain teams at certain times have done next to nothing to hide the fact that they favour one of their drivers, but I am convinced that despite the PR some teams produce, they all end up knowing that one driver has more chance of doing better than the other. As a sport, putting your efforts behind your best chances is pretty sensible.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:59 pm 
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Big can of worms I think. But it may be not as bad as it sounds, more like to ensure that Lewis has a good car to challenge for a WDC, or to ensure he sticks in the best team/car (Merc) to win it (amidst talks of Lewis moving to Ferrari). Maybe it is his English that failed him, who knows? Without the context I can't really tell. Can you share the link please?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:51 pm 
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I think this is somewhat making a mountain out of a molehill. It doesn't mean that he'll actively give Hamilton preferential treatment over Bottas, it means that he wants to make sure that Mercedes is giving Hamilton the equipment to fight for the championship. I'm sure that Wolf would be elated if Bottas won a championship for Mercedes, but in the grand scheme of things (unless Bottas goes on to win 3 or 4 more) the history books are going to be full of pages about the time Hamilton equalled Schumacher rather than when yet another driver became a first time WDC.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:44 am 
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Well we don't have the full quote/context here, but I often feel statements like that are a bit of a Freudian slip. I'm sure if Bottas was beating Hamilton on merit near the end of the season, Wolff would be more than happy to see him win the WDC ahead of Hamilton, but the comment reflects what he's thinking - i.e the likelihood is that if the car is good enough, it will be Lewis that ends up being the winner. And it's fair enough. I don't see how a Bottas 3.0 can emerge and beat Hamilton, but in all fairness I would never have seen Rosberg taking a WDC ahead of Hamilton in the same car.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:32 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Well we don't have the full quote/context here, but I often feel statements like that are a bit of a Freudian slip. I'm sure if Bottas was beating Hamilton on merit near the end of the season, Wolff would be more than happy to see him win the WDC ahead of Hamilton, but the comment reflects what he's thinking - i.e the likelihood is that if the car is good enough, it will be Lewis that ends up being the winner. And it's fair enough. I don't see how a Bottas 3.0 can emerge and beat Hamilton, but in all fairness I would never have seen Rosberg taking a WDC ahead of Hamilton in the same car.


For what it’s worth, 2020 is likely to be the best chance Bottas will ever get to beat Hamilton with a shorter season playing into his hands. Still unlikely over the course of 14-18 races but you never know.


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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 10:22 am 
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A.J. wrote:
While the off-season is (still) on, I've been reading a lot of new (and rehashed) interviews with (admittedly mostly British and Mercedes folks) people talking about Lewis Hamilton, and today I read a quote from Wolff which made me do a double-take: “I want to do my part to ensure that Lewis Hamilton wins the seventh title.”

Does that mean that Bottas should just stop trying? This is frankly a Flavio/Fernando or Horner/Verstappen (or even Dennis/Hamilton) type of comment, where the other driver isn't even a concern for the Team Principal.

Now a lot of people beat Schumacher and Alonso and other past champions (and even Verstappen/Vettel sometimes) with the favoured-over-team-mate stick - how does Hamilton escape that? I mean there have been multiple instances where he has benefited directly from team-orders, and yet he's considered "unblemished" (admittedly by one of the Merc execs, so make of it what you will) while the others are somehow not. Not that I disagree with TOs - am curious to know what other people think.

Where is the article?


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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 11:10 am 
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Clarky wrote:
A.J. wrote:
While the off-season is (still) on, I've been reading a lot of new (and rehashed) interviews with (admittedly mostly British and Mercedes folks) people talking about Lewis Hamilton, and today I read a quote from Wolff which made me do a double-take: “I want to do my part to ensure that Lewis Hamilton wins the seventh title.”

Does that mean that Bottas should just stop trying? This is frankly a Flavio/Fernando or Horner/Verstappen (or even Dennis/Hamilton) type of comment, where the other driver isn't even a concern for the Team Principal.

Now a lot of people beat Schumacher and Alonso and other past champions (and even Verstappen/Vettel sometimes) with the favoured-over-team-mate stick - how does Hamilton escape that? I mean there have been multiple instances where he has benefited directly from team-orders, and yet he's considered "unblemished" (admittedly by one of the Merc execs, so make of it what you will) while the others are somehow not. Not that I disagree with TOs - am curious to know what other people think.

Where is the article?


I think all the articles lately re. Wolff or Hamilton have been culled from the Sky Wolff/Hamilton interview. IIRC this was against a backdrop of Wolff buying into Aston Martin and his contract with Merc being up at the end of the year. So basically Wolff responding to the charge that he may take his eye off the Mercedes ball this season.

The thrust of the interview was the relationship and dynamic between the two of them, so each question and answer was premised on how their individual actions affected the other.


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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 10:58 pm 
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I read the title and thought there was some horrible BTCC Mercedes mashup going on.. phew.


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 5:49 pm 
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I think it's pretty clear that Hamilton is the #1 driver at Mercedes. Not undeserved because he's obviously better than Bottas, but he is the #1 driver.


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 7:22 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
I think it's pretty clear that Hamilton is the #1 driver at Mercedes. Not undeserved because he's obviously better than Bottas, but he is the #1 driver.

:thumbup:

Hamilton is obviously the #1 driver. However, a sizable portion of his fan base have spent more than a decade decrying other drivers who have had #1 status and are reluctant to admit that:

a) Hamilton has it.
b) It doesn't tarnish the achievements of the other drivers that they had it .

One of the big talking points in Hamilton vs. Alonso has always been that Alonso had #1 status wherever he went. If you admit that Lewis has enjoyed #1 status for the past 3 years (2017, 2018, 2019) that distinction becomes fuzzier.

Personally, I've always found it an annoying line of argument. There's nothing wrong with a superior driver being afforded #1 status; it's been proven time and again to be the best way to deliver a championship for the team.

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 9:12 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I think it's pretty clear that Hamilton is the #1 driver at Mercedes. Not undeserved because he's obviously better than Bottas, but he is the #1 driver.

:thumbup:

Hamilton is obviously the #1 driver. However, a sizable portion of his fan base have spent more than a decade decrying other drivers who have had #1 status and are reluctant to admit that:

a) Hamilton has it.
b) It doesn't tarnish the achievements of the other drivers that they had it .

One of the big talking points in Hamilton vs. Alonso has always been that Alonso had #1 status wherever he went. If you admit that Lewis has enjoyed #1 status for the past 3 years (2017, 2018, 2019) that distinction becomes fuzzier.

Personally, I've always found it an annoying line of argument. There's nothing wrong with a superior driver being afforded #1 status; it's been proven time and again to be the best way to deliver a championship for the team.

You're comparing Hamilton with the likes of Schumacher and Alonso, as far as I can see Bottas is allowed to beat Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 10:37 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I think it's pretty clear that Hamilton is the #1 driver at Mercedes. Not undeserved because he's obviously better than Bottas, but he is the #1 driver.

:thumbup:

Hamilton is obviously the #1 driver. However, a sizable portion of his fan base have spent more than a decade decrying other drivers who have had #1 status and are reluctant to admit that:

a) Hamilton has it.
b) It doesn't tarnish the achievements of the other drivers that they had it .

One of the big talking points in Hamilton vs. Alonso has always been that Alonso had #1 status wherever he went. If you admit that Lewis has enjoyed #1 status for the past 3 years (2017, 2018, 2019) that distinction becomes fuzzier.

Personally, I've always found it an annoying line of argument. There's nothing wrong with a superior driver being afforded #1 status; it's been proven time and again to be the best way to deliver a championship for the team.

You're comparing Hamilton with the likes of Schumacher and Alonso, as far as I can see Bottas is allowed to beat Hamilton.

He hasn't always been. Russia is the most obvious example, but not the only one.

Just like with Massa or Barrichello, Bottas is usually incapable of beating his teammate, and on some occasions when he finds himself able to do so he is allowed to. But if the team feels allowing him to beat Hamilton is detrimental to their chances, they take that away from him.

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 10:08 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I think it's pretty clear that Hamilton is the #1 driver at Mercedes. Not undeserved because he's obviously better than Bottas, but he is the #1 driver.

:thumbup:

Hamilton is obviously the #1 driver. However, a sizable portion of his fan base have spent more than a decade decrying other drivers who have had #1 status and are reluctant to admit that:

a) Hamilton has it.
b) It doesn't tarnish the achievements of the other drivers that they had it .

One of the big talking points in Hamilton vs. Alonso has always been that Alonso had #1 status wherever he went. If you admit that Lewis has enjoyed #1 status for the past 3 years (2017, 2018, 2019) that distinction becomes fuzzier.

Personally, I've always found it an annoying line of argument. There's nothing wrong with a superior driver being afforded #1 status; it's been proven time and again to be the best way to deliver a championship for the team.

You're comparing Hamilton with the likes of Schumacher and Alonso, as far as I can see Bottas is allowed to beat Hamilton.

He hasn't always been. Russia is the most obvious example, but not the only one.

Just like with Massa or Barrichello, Bottas is usually incapable of beating his teammate, and on some occasions when he finds himself able to do so he is allowed to. But if the team feels allowing him to beat Hamilton is detrimental to their chances, they take that away from him.


I think germany in 2018 was another example where Bottas clearly had more speed at the end then got told he couldn't pass hamilton and simply obeyed those orders. Right now, other than this and russia, I can't remember another time this happened for the win, but I'm sure Mercedes have very clearly tried to help Hamilton while clearly hindering Bottas. Even when it likely wouldn't have effected the total number of points for the team had Bottas finished ahead. I still question why they do it sometimes when it was clear that Hamilton had such a large lead in the championship that it really didn't matter.

It made a real change in Japan last year where Mercedes looked to do with Hamilton what they often do with Bottas.


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 11:55 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I think it's pretty clear that Hamilton is the #1 driver at Mercedes. Not undeserved because he's obviously better than Bottas, but he is the #1 driver.

:thumbup:

Hamilton is obviously the #1 driver. However, a sizable portion of his fan base have spent more than a decade decrying other drivers who have had #1 status and are reluctant to admit that:

a) Hamilton has it.
b) It doesn't tarnish the achievements of the other drivers that they had it .

One of the big talking points in Hamilton vs. Alonso has always been that Alonso had #1 status wherever he went. If you admit that Lewis has enjoyed #1 status for the past 3 years (2017, 2018, 2019) that distinction becomes fuzzier.

Personally, I've always found it an annoying line of argument. There's nothing wrong with a superior driver being afforded #1 status; it's been proven time and again to be the best way to deliver a championship for the team.

You're comparing Hamilton with the likes of Schumacher and Alonso, as far as I can see Bottas is allowed to beat Hamilton.

He hasn't always been. Russia is the most obvious example, but not the only one.

Just like with Massa or Barrichello, Bottas is usually incapable of beating his teammate, and on some occasions when he finds himself able to do so he is allowed to. But if the team feels allowing him to beat Hamilton is detrimental to their chances, they take that away from him.


I think germany in 2018 was another example where Bottas clearly had more speed at the end then got told he couldn't pass hamilton and simply obeyed those orders. Right now, other than this and russia, I can't remember another time this happened for the win, but I'm sure Mercedes have very clearly tried to help Hamilton while clearly hindering Bottas. Even when it likely wouldn't have effected the total number of points for the team had Bottas finished ahead. I still question why they do it sometimes when it was clear that Hamilton had such a large lead in the championship that it really didn't matter.

It made a real change in Japan last year where Mercedes looked to do with Hamilton what they often do with Bottas.



Re Germany, iirc, Bottas tried to attack Hamilton after the SC re-start, but Hamilton was able to pull away once his tyres were back up to temperature. In other words, Hamilton had already dropped Bottas BEFORE Merc team orders:

https://streamable.com/id8i3

I think it’s important to add context. Conditions were tricky, it was raining, Vettel had just crashed out, in part, due to the conditions. The team order came, not to help Hamilton over Bottas, but rather to minimise the risk of losing a Merc 1-2.

“in terms of making the call later in the race when they started to be all over each other at the restart, fair enough it was raining at places and it was still humid but we had so much bad luck in the last couple of races that the scenario of losing a car or two was just something that I didn’t want to even.I would have done the same thing the other way around, I think this is the transparency we have in the team that it would make no difference. It was important to score the double podium, the one-two, to recover some of the points we lost through bad luck. It was about bringing him home, irrespective of who is in front.” (Wolff)

How I read the Merc team dynamic. Both drivers start the season with an equal shot. Merc allow their drivers to race until a clear leader is organically established, & then only use team orders in the most crucial of situations. And i don't believe Merc purposely set out to hinder Bottas. For example, look at what happened at Baku 2017. Merc refused to risk jeopardising Bottas's race (Hamilton had asked the team to use Bottas to slow the field). Or Bahrain 2018*( where it was Hamilton's race that was slightly compromised- kept out long, used as road block, to assist Bottas' attack on Vettel).


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 12:09 pm 
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In 3 years as team mates we have 4 clear incidences of team orders, 2 where Bottas was ordered to defer to Hamilton and one where Hamilton was given a strategy to defer to Bottas, and one where Bottas was ordered to let Hamilton pass and Hamilton ordered to concede if he couldn't progress further (which he then proceeded to do)

If we say that Japan 19 is equal to Germany 18, and that Hungary was also equal to both drivers, that leaves only Russia 2018. During that time, Hamilton was in contention with Vettel for the title - and at that point in the season was not guaranteed to win the title. The order to switch was given to protect Hamilton to being overtaken by Vettel (to put Bottas between them) and on the last lap Hamilton even questioned that they weren't being ordered to switch back. However, it was indisputably a team order in Hamilton's favour, something that cannot be denied.

But to try and claim this is similar to the status that Schumacher enjoyed at Ferrari is revisionism at its finest. Barrichello and Irvine were recruited as contractual number 2 drivers. Everything was stacked in favour of Schumacher. Mercedes favouring their title leading driver in a battle against a driver from another team is expected team behaviour.


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 1:44 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I think it's pretty clear that Hamilton is the #1 driver at Mercedes. Not undeserved because he's obviously better than Bottas, but he is the #1 driver.

:thumbup:

Hamilton is obviously the #1 driver. However, a sizable portion of his fan base have spent more than a decade decrying other drivers who have had #1 status and are reluctant to admit that:

a) Hamilton has it.
b) It doesn't tarnish the achievements of the other drivers that they had it .

One of the big talking points in Hamilton vs. Alonso has always been that Alonso had #1 status wherever he went. If you admit that Lewis has enjoyed #1 status for the past 3 years (2017, 2018, 2019) that distinction becomes fuzzier.

Personally, I've always found it an annoying line of argument. There's nothing wrong with a superior driver being afforded #1 status; it's been proven time and again to be the best way to deliver a championship for the team.

You're comparing Hamilton with the likes of Schumacher and Alonso, as far as I can see Bottas is allowed to beat Hamilton.

He hasn't always been. Russia is the most obvious example, but not the only one.

Just like with Massa or Barrichello, Bottas is usually incapable of beating his teammate, and on some occasions when he finds himself able to do so he is allowed to. But if the team feels allowing him to beat Hamilton is detrimental to their chances, they take that away from him.

Late in the season with Bottas out of contention compariing with #2's that are not allowed to win from day 1, last year no team orders for Bottas at Baku with Hamilton close behind, in Japan Hamilton wasn't allowed to win the race whilst leading taking the win from Bottas who had lead for the most part, I don't see either Schumacher or Alonso doing that especially so early in the season.

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 1:48 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
In 3 years as team mates we have 4 clear incidences of team orders, 2 where Bottas was ordered to defer to Hamilton and one where Hamilton was given a strategy to defer to Bottas, and one where Bottas was ordered to let Hamilton pass and Hamilton ordered to concede if he couldn't progress further (which he then proceeded to do)

If we say that Japan 19 is equal to Germany 18, and that Hungary was also equal to both drivers, that leaves only Russia 2018. During that time, Hamilton was in contention with Vettel for the title - and at that point in the season was not guaranteed to win the title. The order to switch was given to protect Hamilton to being overtaken by Vettel (to put Bottas between them) and on the last lap Hamilton even questioned that they weren't being ordered to switch back. However, it was indisputably a team order in Hamilton's favour, something that cannot be denied.

But to try and claim this is similar to the status that Schumacher enjoyed at Ferrari is revisionism at its finest. Barrichello and Irvine were recruited as contractual number 2 drivers. Everything was stacked in favour of Schumacher. Mercedes favouring their title leading driver in a battle against a driver from another team is expected team behaviour.


I remember Irvine mentioning that he didn't have any Nr.2 clause, he was just slower. And the same with Rubens, we do not know as we have never seen their contracts. Not to say that Schumacher didn't enjoy privileges in his Ferrari days (like every star does), but I don't think it is 100% correct to say that we know that they were contractually Nr.2.

Anyway, I agree with you Alien, Hamilton is much "cleaner" (for lack of better word) in that respect than Alonso (which was the original point). But we have seen leaked contracts from Senna and Piquet and they have No.1 clauses, something that is never mentioned anywhere; I do not see how this is a major issue anyway. The powers that be back the best chance they got, it makes sense. And even if it is always the case (like 2010), it is way more often than not the best solution.


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 3:40 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
In 3 years as team mates we have 4 clear incidences of team orders, 2 where Bottas was ordered to defer to Hamilton and one where Hamilton was given a strategy to defer to Bottas, and one where Bottas was ordered to let Hamilton pass and Hamilton ordered to concede if he couldn't progress further (which he then proceeded to do)

If we say that Japan 19 is equal to Germany 18, and that Hungary was also equal to both drivers, that leaves only Russia 2018. During that time, Hamilton was in contention with Vettel for the title - and at that point in the season was not guaranteed to win the title. The order to switch was given to protect Hamilton to being overtaken by Vettel (to put Bottas between them) and on the last lap Hamilton even questioned that they weren't being ordered to switch back. However, it was indisputably a team order in Hamilton's favour, something that cannot be denied.

But to try and claim this is similar to the status that Schumacher enjoyed at Ferrari is revisionism at its finest. Barrichello and Irvine were recruited as contractual number 2 drivers. Everything was stacked in favour of Schumacher. Mercedes favouring their title leading driver in a battle against a driver from another team is expected team behaviour.


I remember Irvine mentioning that he didn't have any Nr.2 clause, he was just slower. And the same with Rubens, we do not know as we have never seen their contracts. Not to say that Schumacher didn't enjoy privileges in his Ferrari days (like every star does), but I don't think it is 100% correct to say that we know that they were contractually Nr.2.

Anyway, I agree with you Alien, Hamilton is much "cleaner" (for lack of better word) in that respect than Alonso (which was the original point). But we have seen leaked contracts from Senna and Piquet and they have No.1 clauses, something that is never mentioned anywhere; I do not see how this is a major issue anyway. The powers that be back the best chance they got, it makes sense. And even if it is always the case (like 2010), it is way more often than not the best solution.

I mean, I doubt they ever had "you are a number 2" written into their contracts - but in terms of Schumacher getting the best engineers, first pick on parts etc... I mean, that doesn't have to even be in their contracts, only in Schumachers. They can be a "not a number 2 driver" but Schumacher certainly had things in his contract, either directly or indirectly, that made him the team's number one.

Regarding Alonso and Massa in Hockenheim - it was controversial at the time because team orders were explicitly outlawed. However, in the cold light of day it was the sensible choice for Ferrari to make. It only hurt to see because Massa was coming back from his accident in 2009 and it pretty much sealed his fate as a future race winner. Alonso was faster than him, Massa just made a better start in the race, and Alonso was Ferrari's only shout for the WDC. Alonso mentally broke Massa more than contractually having elevated status. Much in the same way Hamilton has the mental (and skill) upper hand on Bottas.


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 5:29 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
In 3 years as team mates we have 4 clear incidences of team orders, 2 where Bottas was ordered to defer to Hamilton and one where Hamilton was given a strategy to defer to Bottas, and one where Bottas was ordered to let Hamilton pass and Hamilton ordered to concede if he couldn't progress further (which he then proceeded to do)

If we say that Japan 19 is equal to Germany 18, and that Hungary was also equal to both drivers, that leaves only Russia 2018. During that time, Hamilton was in contention with Vettel for the title - and at that point in the season was not guaranteed to win the title. The order to switch was given to protect Hamilton to being overtaken by Vettel (to put Bottas between them) and on the last lap Hamilton even questioned that they weren't being ordered to switch back. However, it was indisputably a team order in Hamilton's favour, something that cannot be denied.

But to try and claim this is similar to the status that Schumacher enjoyed at Ferrari is revisionism at its finest. Barrichello and Irvine were recruited as contractual number 2 drivers. Everything was stacked in favour of Schumacher. Mercedes favouring their title leading driver in a battle against a driver from another team is expected team behaviour.


I remember Irvine mentioning that he didn't have any Nr.2 clause, he was just slower. And the same with Rubens, we do not know as we have never seen their contracts. Not to say that Schumacher didn't enjoy privileges in his Ferrari days (like every star does), but I don't think it is 100% correct to say that we know that they were contractually Nr.2.

Anyway, I agree with you Alien, Hamilton is much "cleaner" (for lack of better word) in that respect than Alonso (which was the original point). But we have seen leaked contracts from Senna and Piquet and they have No.1 clauses, something that is never mentioned anywhere; I do not see how this is a major issue anyway. The powers that be back the best chance they got, it makes sense. And even if it is always the case (like 2010), it is way more often than not the best solution.

I mean, I doubt they ever had "you are a number 2" written into their contracts - but in terms of Schumacher getting the best engineers, first pick on parts etc... I mean, that doesn't have to even be in their contracts, only in Schumachers. They can be a "not a number 2 driver" but Schumacher certainly had things in his contract, either directly or indirectly, that made him the team's number one.

Regarding Alonso and Massa in Hockenheim - it was controversial at the time because team orders were explicitly outlawed. However, in the cold light of day it was the sensible choice for Ferrari to make. It only hurt to see because Massa was coming back from his accident in 2009 and it pretty much sealed his fate as a future race winner. Alonso was faster than him, Massa just made a better start in the race, and Alonso was Ferrari's only shout for the WDC. Alonso mentally broke Massa more than contractually having elevated status. Much in the same way Hamilton has the mental (and skill) upper hand on Bottas.


Yeah, I agree. I was not trying to prove you wrong, merely being very pedantic as you said they were recruited contractually to be Nr.2, but we just don't know that. But it is true, it doesn't even have to be written down, just give the other driver dibs on strategy, equipment, etc., Senna style.

For me Alonso and Massa was not controversial because of the team orders ban; it was the way that it was done, a mockery of the team orders in essence. Ferrari should have been fined in my eyes, if nothing else for bringing the sport into disrepute or something (and I say that as a Ferrari fan).


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 6:22 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I think it's pretty clear that Hamilton is the #1 driver at Mercedes. Not undeserved because he's obviously better than Bottas, but he is the #1 driver.

:thumbup:

Hamilton is obviously the #1 driver. However, a sizable portion of his fan base have spent more than a decade decrying other drivers who have had #1 status and are reluctant to admit that:

a) Hamilton has it.
b) It doesn't tarnish the achievements of the other drivers that they had it .

One of the big talking points in Hamilton vs. Alonso has always been that Alonso had #1 status wherever he went. If you admit that Lewis has enjoyed #1 status for the past 3 years (2017, 2018, 2019) that distinction becomes fuzzier.

Personally, I've always found it an annoying line of argument. There's nothing wrong with a superior driver being afforded #1 status; it's been proven time and again to be the best way to deliver a championship for the team.

You're comparing Hamilton with the likes of Schumacher and Alonso, as far as I can see Bottas is allowed to beat Hamilton.


My opinion, and yours probably count for very little in this discussion as we are Hamilton fans, but I do feel like Bottas is allowed to beat Hamilton whenever he can beat him as long as it does not jeopardize a Mercedes WDC title.

After all I do remember a radio message with Mercedes forcibly instructing Bottas to attack Lewis at COTA last year, and there have been many occasions where Bottas has been pushed or managed in a way to beat Lewis. I don't ever recall Ferrari instructing Massa to beat Alonso on those few times he was maybe faster, I do however recall Ferrari inventing a penalty to put Alonso in front of Massa. That one i'll never forget...


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 6:34 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I think it's pretty clear that Hamilton is the #1 driver at Mercedes. Not undeserved because he's obviously better than Bottas, but he is the #1 driver.

:thumbup:

Hamilton is obviously the #1 driver. However, a sizable portion of his fan base have spent more than a decade decrying other drivers who have had #1 status and are reluctant to admit that:

a) Hamilton has it.
b) It doesn't tarnish the achievements of the other drivers that they had it .

One of the big talking points in Hamilton vs. Alonso has always been that Alonso had #1 status wherever he went. If you admit that Lewis has enjoyed #1 status for the past 3 years (2017, 2018, 2019) that distinction becomes fuzzier.

Personally, I've always found it an annoying line of argument. There's nothing wrong with a superior driver being afforded #1 status; it's been proven time and again to be the best way to deliver a championship for the team.

You're comparing Hamilton with the likes of Schumacher and Alonso, as far as I can see Bottas is allowed to beat Hamilton.

My opinion, and yours probably count for very little in this discussion as we are Hamilton fans, but I do feel like Bottas is allowed to beat Hamilton whenever he can beat him as long as it does not jeopardize a Mercedes WDC title.

How does that opinion jive with Bottas being ordered to give up his win at a point in the season when Hamilton has already built a sizable points lead?

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TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 7:05 pm 
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SR1 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Hamilton is obviously the #1 driver. However, a sizable portion of his fan base have spent more than a decade decrying other drivers who have had #1 status and are reluctant to admit that:

a) Hamilton has it.
b) It doesn't tarnish the achievements of the other drivers that they had it .

One of the big talking points in Hamilton vs. Alonso has always been that Alonso had #1 status wherever he went. If you admit that Lewis has enjoyed #1 status for the past 3 years (2017, 2018, 2019) that distinction becomes fuzzier.

Personally, I've always found it an annoying line of argument. There's nothing wrong with a superior driver being afforded #1 status; it's been proven time and again to be the best way to deliver a championship for the team.

You're comparing Hamilton with the likes of Schumacher and Alonso, as far as I can see Bottas is allowed to beat Hamilton.

He hasn't always been. Russia is the most obvious example, but not the only one.

Just like with Massa or Barrichello, Bottas is usually incapable of beating his teammate, and on some occasions when he finds himself able to do so he is allowed to. But if the team feels allowing him to beat Hamilton is detrimental to their chances, they take that away from him.


I think germany in 2018 was another example where Bottas clearly had more speed at the end then got told he couldn't pass hamilton and simply obeyed those orders. Right now, other than this and russia, I can't remember another time this happened for the win, but I'm sure Mercedes have very clearly tried to help Hamilton while clearly hindering Bottas. Even when it likely wouldn't have effected the total number of points for the team had Bottas finished ahead. I still question why they do it sometimes when it was clear that Hamilton had such a large lead in the championship that it really didn't matter.

It made a real change in Japan last year where Mercedes looked to do with Hamilton what they often do with Bottas.



Re Germany, iirc, Bottas tried to attack Hamilton after the SC re-start, but Hamilton was able to pull away once his tyres were back up to temperature. In other words, Hamilton had already dropped Bottas BEFORE Merc team orders:

https://streamable.com/id8i3

I think it’s important to add context. Conditions were tricky, it was raining, Vettel had just crashed out, in part, due to the conditions. The team order came, not to help Hamilton over Bottas, but rather to minimise the risk of losing a Merc 1-2.

“in terms of making the call later in the race when they started to be all over each other at the restart, fair enough it was raining at places and it was still humid but we had so much bad luck in the last couple of races that the scenario of losing a car or two was just something that I didn’t want to even.I would have done the same thing the other way around, I think this is the transparency we have in the team that it would make no difference. It was important to score the double podium, the one-two, to recover some of the points we lost through bad luck. It was about bringing him home, irrespective of who is in front.” (Wolff)

How I read the Merc team dynamic. Both drivers start the season with an equal shot. Merc allow their drivers to race until a clear leader is organically established, & then only use team orders in the most crucial of situations. And i don't believe Merc purposely set out to hinder Bottas. For example, look at what happened at Baku 2017. Merc refused to risk jeopardising Bottas's race (Hamilton had asked the team to use Bottas to slow the field). Or Bahrain 2018*( where it was Hamilton's race that was slightly compromised- kept out long, used as road block, to assist Bottas' attack on Vettel).


I agree with all your other points, especially the one in baku. I remember that now and Bottas doing that would have obviously cost the team a better result and it was clear they wanted Bottas to get that point more than helping Hamilton pass Vettel. But I'm really not sure about the timing of the radio with this link you have provided.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp-i8vtgzJE&t=372s

This has it around where I thought it was, as it looks like it is exactly where Bottas stops keeping right on Hamilton's tail. It isn't just this that makes me think that. On Channel 4's highlights which I recorded and the replay there shows the massage being said at the same point which was right at the point Bottas appeared to back off. In the link you posted, it is said after the gap had increased somewhat - and many many corners after Bottas put on the fight. I don't believe that the radio broadcast would ever be brought that far back in time. I know it is often delayed, but they wouldn't have left the order to Bottas this late would they? As by that stage Bottas had clearly dropped back. I understand Mercedes point about wanting to keep things safe, but I don't think there is much proof that Bottas couldn't have won that had he been allowed to keep trying. His tires were fresher after all.

Anyhow, this does go beyond your good point of what wolf said that they didn't want to take risks. So yea, in that case, then made the right decision.


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 10:50 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I think it's pretty clear that Hamilton is the #1 driver at Mercedes. Not undeserved because he's obviously better than Bottas, but he is the #1 driver.

:thumbup:

Hamilton is obviously the #1 driver. However, a sizable portion of his fan base have spent more than a decade decrying other drivers who have had #1 status and are reluctant to admit that:

a) Hamilton has it.
b) It doesn't tarnish the achievements of the other drivers that they had it .

One of the big talking points in Hamilton vs. Alonso has always been that Alonso had #1 status wherever he went. If you admit that Lewis has enjoyed #1 status for the past 3 years (2017, 2018, 2019) that distinction becomes fuzzier.

Personally, I've always found it an annoying line of argument. There's nothing wrong with a superior driver being afforded #1 status; it's been proven time and again to be the best way to deliver a championship for the team.

You're comparing Hamilton with the likes of Schumacher and Alonso, as far as I can see Bottas is allowed to beat Hamilton.

My opinion, and yours probably count for very little in this discussion as we are Hamilton fans, but I do feel like Bottas is allowed to beat Hamilton whenever he can beat him as long as it does not jeopardize a Mercedes WDC title.

How does that opinion jive with Bottas being ordered to give up his win at a point in the season when Hamilton has already built a sizable points lead?

A 40 point lead with 6 races to go, in hindsight easy to say it's in the bag, it's not like drivers never have DNF's.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 11:41 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
How does that opinion jive with Bottas being ordered to give up his win at a point in the season when Hamilton has already built a sizable points lead?

A 40 point lead with 6 races to go, in hindsight easy to say it's in the bag, it's not like drivers never have DNF's.

It's not just hindsight. Many people -- including me -- said it at the time. In fact, virtually everyone said it at the time.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 7:15 am 
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Posts: 8286
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I think it's pretty clear that Hamilton is the #1 driver at Mercedes. Not undeserved because he's obviously better than Bottas, but he is the #1 driver.

:thumbup:

Hamilton is obviously the #1 driver. However, a sizable portion of his fan base have spent more than a decade decrying other drivers who have had #1 status and are reluctant to admit that:

a) Hamilton has it.
b) It doesn't tarnish the achievements of the other drivers that they had it .

One of the big talking points in Hamilton vs. Alonso has always been that Alonso had #1 status wherever he went. If you admit that Lewis has enjoyed #1 status for the past 3 years (2017, 2018, 2019) that distinction becomes fuzzier.

Personally, I've always found it an annoying line of argument. There's nothing wrong with a superior driver being afforded #1 status; it's been proven time and again to be the best way to deliver a championship for the team.

You're comparing Hamilton with the likes of Schumacher and Alonso, as far as I can see Bottas is allowed to beat Hamilton.


My opinion, and yours probably count for very little in this discussion as we are Hamilton fans, but I do feel like Bottas is allowed to beat Hamilton whenever he can beat him as long as it does not jeopardize a Mercedes WDC title.

After all I do remember a radio message with Mercedes forcibly instructing Bottas to attack Lewis at COTA last year, and there have been many occasions where Bottas has been pushed or managed in a way to beat Lewis. I don't ever recall Ferrari instructing Massa to beat Alonso on those few times he was maybe faster, I do however recall Ferrari inventing a penalty to put Alonso in front of Massa. That one i'll never forget...


It was at the penultimate race, with a chance for the WDC for them. As bad as it was for - let's face it - an already broken Massa, it was not too different than ordering a driver to give his position frankly. Or even give up his car in the older days. I understand why they did it even if I am not 100% happy of the treatment of one of their most loyal drivers.


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 5:39 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
How does that opinion jive with Bottas being ordered to give up his win at a point in the season when Hamilton has already built a sizable points lead?

A 40 point lead with 6 races to go, in hindsight easy to say it's in the bag, it's not like drivers never have DNF's.

It's not just hindsight. Many people -- including me -- said it at the time. In fact, virtually everyone said it at the time.

You can't predict with certainty either reliability issues or collisions, it's much easier not being as careful from your settee.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 5:46 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
How does that opinion jive with Bottas being ordered to give up his win at a point in the season when Hamilton has already built a sizable points lead?

A 40 point lead with 6 races to go, in hindsight easy to say it's in the bag, it's not like drivers never have DNF's.

It's not just hindsight. Many people -- including me -- said it at the time. In fact, virtually everyone said it at the time.


I mean, it was probable but absolutely not in the bag. That's only 16 points under the old point system. We've seen leads like that eaten up very quickly. It's easy to say you'd chance it when it's not your neck on the line but the reality is you would really be chancing it.


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