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 Post subject: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:12 pm 
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Watching some old F1 races from 1991, I came to France and the first race at Magny Cours. Before the race Mansell reckonned the track would be a nightmare as it was impossible to overtake. In the race he had to catch and pass Prost's Ferrari twice to win, which he did with 2 superb overtakes. So it set me thinking. Who's the best overtaker in F1 history? I'd vote for Mansell plus Hamilton and Ricciardo of the current crop. I remember Hamilton's first season when he produced a string of stunning overtakes early in races..


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:28 pm 
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Danny Ric in the modern era stands out for me. Mansell was always good value too.

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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:08 pm 
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tim3003 wrote:
Watching some old F1 races from 1991, I came to France and the first race at Magny Cours. Before the race Mansell reckonned the track would be a nightmare as it was impossible to overtake. In the race he had to catch and pass Prost's Ferrari twice to win, which he did with 2 superb overtakes. So it set me thinking. Who's the best overtaker in F1 history? I'd vote for Mansell plus Hamilton and Ricciardo of the current crop. I remember Hamilton's first season when he produced a string of stunning overtakes early in races..


100% agree with you. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:25 am 
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A lot of champions have built careers on flag to flag wins and getting pole after pole position. It's the up and coming drivers who are the ones recording the overtakes. Occasionally you will see the front runners have a bad quali session and have to make a run from mid-pack or the back of the grid.

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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:44 am 
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Would our views be different if running people off the track were punished?

I think for now it's Daniel Ricciardo; though the car always has to allow you to get into a position to overtake. But, with my above thought in mind, I think Verstappen is getting there.

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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:49 am 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Danny Ric in the modern era stands out for me. Mansell was always good value too.


I think I would agree with Ricciardo. Though I still think he relies on other people being more observant than they actually need to be and jumping out the way. Ricciardo will have had a lot more crashes if those drivers had continued taking their line. I think I will be able to find nearly 10 examples of where this type of move went wrong, or would have without other drivers being very aware of him diving up the inside. Just one of many examples was in Bahrain this year. He made light contact with Hulkenberg despite hulkenberg giving him loads of space and even making that clear on the radio. He ran wider than he should have done really, but he had a lucky escape. That easily could have been a puncture for one or both of them.

I think he's the best at pulling these off successfully more than anyone else, but he's often very lucky that they work out.


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:08 am 
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Fiki wrote:
Would our views be different if running people off the track were punished?

I think for now it's Daniel Ricciardo; though the car always has to allow you to get into a position to overtake. But, with my above thought in mind, I think Verstappen is getting there.


I think Verstappen is probably as good as Ricciardo at overtaking at times, but not overall. The problem with Verstappen is the way he makes up for a bad start or qualifying position on the first lap. It went wrong in Belgium for him and I think he just carried too much speed and attempted a somewhat oppertunistic move on Kimi right on the inside.

Then in Italy, I don't know why he was so desperate to get past the cars ahead. The speed difference was so great that he could have waited until after the first few corners and got a good deal of them then. But he attempted get by Noris by out breaking him at the last moment. That is not a sensible thing to do when there are this many cars close together before the corner. This is what resulted in him crashing into Perez and getting a puncture.

If he gets over these poor judgements (which still occur quite often), then I think he could well be the best overtaker on the grid.


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:04 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
A lot of champions have built careers on flag to flag wins and getting pole after pole position. It's the up and coming drivers who are the ones recording the overtakes. Occasionally you will see the front runners have a bad quali session and have to make a run from mid-pack or the back of the grid.


It's less true now than in the past, but getting past back-markers quickly used to be as important as passing those you're racing with. In the days when they didn't jump aside at the mere sight of a blue flag lead drivers had to muscle their way past. Senna was the master at this. His technique was as much intimidation as speed. Back-markers knew he wouldn't hesitate and usually got out of the way. On the other hand Prost was more tentative and risk-averse, meaning he was at a disadvantage - partly why Mansell was able to get by him at Magny Cours 91. Still, despite being a worse qualifier than his rivals Prost won more races. So he must have been adept at making up for all those poor grid positions..

But for sheer guts I'd pick Mansell. The Magny Cours 91 move on Prost was around the outside into a corner, then there's Silverstone 87 on Piquet, and his move on Berger at Mexico 90 around the outside at the Peraltada had to be seen to be believed!

Maybe I'm biassed as a Brit, but how many great overtaking manoevres do we remember? And whose were they?


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:48 am 
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Gotta be Mansell, Lewis and Ricciardo.....

Would love to see a real live GP of Jimmy Clark back in the day.

I've also seen some great overtakes by Button during his Championship year 2009 WC title starting 15th? and the Canadian GP 2011 from last place.


Last edited by Noni on Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:52 am 
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Senna, Prost and Schumacher had the advantage being in the best team at the time of their full success. No need to overtake.


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:26 am 
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On the current grid I would probably give it to Ricciardo. Hamilton has always been good at getting past other drivers throughout his career - but that's more down to the artistry in his speed, and pressuring his rivals through his relentlessness of just being faster and constantly in their mirrors.

Ricciardo is the driver who I feel can just 'make it happen' - obviously he's always been in a position of having nothing to lose through not being in a championship fight so can afford to roll the dice more on his lunges, but his lunges are nearly always executed to perfection, he fits his car perfectly in the gap and makes the braking point.

Of course, we dial it further and we end up in Verstappen / Leclerc territory and the guidelines have been shifted lately. What used to just be carefully timed banging of wheels has now fudged into pushing the other driver a little. Whether people think that's ok or not is irrelevant, as the FIA is now allowing it - but it's not as elegant. It's a little Playstation and regardless of its acceptability that lack of finesse means I find it less skilled than the drivers who time their moves to perfection without contact, and without their rival having to take avoiding action.


So if I had to pick a driver arriving with 2 laps to go on the rear wing of the car ahead, I'd pick Ricciardo as most likely to get past. If I had to pick a driver with 10 laps to go, it would be Hamilton.


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:05 am 
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When sex was no more safe, and racing still dangerous (and videos average)... Piquet on Senna in 1986

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMKPJlV-srE

And once again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u8zzgw4d8c

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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:09 pm 
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it's an interesting concept - clearly those like Fangio/Senna/ Prost and more were fantatic - as they had to overtake on track - but the cars allowed that more easily

In the modern era - Ricciardo is clearly the standout in a non dominant car - but some like Mark Webber was underrated as he often had a low powered car and had to muscle his way past those slower but with more speed down the straight - not helped by team issues or just Vettel qualifying brilliance giving him a lead without being behind - so MW a sleeper (and his driving talent is relevant to Monaco wins and clear bias from the team and still nearly won 2010)

Alonso and J Villeneuve must also be worth a mention - as Vettel doesn't as he does best leading from the front.

Alan Jones and Keke Rosberg also sleepers


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:02 pm 
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Only focusing on the current grid.

Up until 2018 I would have said Ricciardo without a doubt but his 2019 season was marred with quite a few cumbersome and unsuccessful overtaking attempts. He really did not look nearly a good overtaker in that Renault.

I have to say that Max was pulling off incredible moves even when he was at TR. Yes he sometimes messes it up but I like his vision when it comes to overtaking a car. He might become the best out there one day.

Of course Lewis is among the best but he rarely gets to show it anymore because he’s so often on pole or near the front.

Leclerc is also very good. But as mentioned already he can be too forceful and lacks finesse. I could say the same for Vettel too.

I think Albon will be talked about as well as one of the best overtakers some time soon. Another guy that seems to pull off moves when you least expect them. He is fearless.


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:24 pm 
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Well since I've been watching(@'91) I'd single out Montoya, Raikkonen sometimes, Alonso, Ricciardo, Hamilton and Verstappen and Kobayashi.

Heidfeld used to have his moments but they were always under the radar - much like the man himself.

Also I'd say under-appreciated was Button. His style made it look easy but he pulled off some nice moves - just never any drama, like his driving.

Oddly it was never something I think Schu consistently demonstrated over his time. Not a weakness by any means, but as in a skill itself I don't think it was top of his weaponry.

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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:21 pm 
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I'm another one that would put Mansell right up there with the best of the overtakers.

I started watching F1 in 1985 and was stood in the crowd at Stowe when our Nige overtook Piquet in 1987. It's a moment I will never forget.

He's another driver that could usually adapt his driving style to suit the car, often dragging the thing round the track in much higher a position than it possibly should have been at times. His single WDC often leaves him forgotten by so many people.


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:21 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Well since I've been watching(@'91) I'd single out Montoya, Raikkonen sometimes, Alonso, Ricciardo, Hamilton and Verstappen and Kobayashi.

Heidfeld used to have his moments but they were always under the radar - much like the man himself.

Also I'd say under-appreciated was Button. His style made it look easy but he pulled off some nice moves - just never any drama, like his driving.

Oddly it was never something I think Schu consistently demonstrated over his time. Not a weakness by any means, but as in a skill itself I don't think it was top of his weaponry.
You've reminded me of that overtake by Montoya on Schumacher at Francorchamps (2004) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HbWMfES010.
And I agree with all the names you list, but would you mind telling me which Räikkönen overtakes you liked most? And Button?

Your remark about Schumacher makes me think that some drivers may have let him through rather than make him overtake them, possibly on information from their team as to who they were racing, and who was merely moving into their normal race position. (A good reason to ban "mission control", in my opinion.)

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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:11 am 
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Fernando Alonso at his peak (2011-2014) had the best racecraft I have ever seen from any driver.

Unbelievably relentless, could make an overtake happen almost anywhere, extremely aggressive, and yet he very rarely made misjudgements or mistakes. Alonso was both a super aggressive racer and also a very clean racer. He was somehow able to make this combination work.

Likewise, Alonso’s starts and his positioning of his car on the first laps were a tier above anyone else I have ever seen.

Hamilton, Ricciardo, Verstappen, Montoya, Heidfeld (underrated), Mansell and Keke Rosberg also deserve an honourable mention.

But Alonso’s racecraft stands out above anyone else in Formula 1 history.


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:01 pm 
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For me I'll will go with Raikkonen, the way he executes his overtakes when he needs to is a thing of beauty!

It's not about the quantity but the quality with Kimi.

Nowadays every dive bomb where the other driver avoids a collision is considered an overtake.


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:39 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Nowadays every dive bomb where the other driver avoids a collision is considered an overtake.

Every dive bomb that works is an overtake. You can debate whether they're good overtakes, but if the car behind becomes the car in front it was an overtake.

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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:49 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
For me I'll will go with Raikkonen, the way he executes his overtakes when he needs to is a thing of beauty!

It's not about the quantity but the quality with Kimi.

Nowadays every dive bomb where the other driver avoids a collision is considered an overtake.


You need both to be the best overtaker. No point in being overtake beautifully if you can manage in once every 5 years.

Nothing wrong with a late move on the breaks.


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:19 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Nowadays every dive bomb where the other driver avoids a collision is considered an overtake.

Every dive bomb that works is an overtake. You can debate whether they're good overtakes, but if the car behind becomes the car in front it was an overtake.


This happens when you read to reply and not to understand.

I see you conveniently missed out the part of the other driver avoiding a collision.


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:23 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
For me I'll will go with Raikkonen, the way he executes his overtakes when he needs to is a thing of beauty!

It's not about the quantity but the quality with Kimi.

Nowadays every dive bomb where the other driver avoids a collision is considered an overtake.


You need both to be the best overtaker. No point in being overtake beautifully if you can manage in once every 5 years.

Nothing wrong with a late move on the breaks.


The question remains best overtaker, and not drier with most overtakes so whether once in 5yrs or once a season opinion stands.


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:03 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
For me I'll will go with Raikkonen, the way he executes his overtakes when he needs to is a thing of beauty!

It's not about the quantity but the quality with Kimi.

Nowadays every dive bomb where the other driver avoids a collision is considered an overtake.


You need both to be the best overtaker. No point in being overtake beautifully if you can manage in once every 5 years.

Nothing wrong with a late move on the breaks.


The question remains best overtaker, and not drier with most overtakes so whether once in 5yrs or once a season opinion stands.


I disagree with your interpretation. It is about the best driver at overtaking. IMO a driver as reluctant to overtake Kimi is not that IMO. Part of being a good overtaker is about being to judge the risk/reward and go for a move when required.

I saw Roberto Carlos score a great free kick once. Doesn't mean he was a better goalscorer than Ronaldo.


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:57 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
For me I'll will go with Raikkonen, the way he executes his overtakes when he needs to is a thing of beauty!

It's not about the quantity but the quality with Kimi.

Nowadays every dive bomb where the other driver avoids a collision is considered an overtake.


You need both to be the best overtaker. No point in being overtake beautifully if you can manage in once every 5 years.

Nothing wrong with a late move on the breaks.


The question remains best overtaker, and not drier with most overtakes so whether once in 5yrs or once a season opinion stands.


I disagree with your interpretation. It is about the best driver at overtaking. IMO a driver as reluctant to overtake Kimi is not that IMO. Part of being a good overtaker is about being to judge the risk/reward and go for a move when required.

I saw Roberto Carlos score a great free kick once. [color=#FF0000]Doesn't mean he was a better goalscorer than Ronaldo[/color].


Will you look at that, the free kick was so good you actually remember that one free kick, though he took many more that he scored as well.

It perfectly illustrates my point.

He remains a better free kick taker than Ronaldo!


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:40 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Nowadays every dive bomb where the other driver avoids a collision is considered an overtake.

Every dive bomb that works is an overtake. You can debate whether they're good overtakes, but if the car behind becomes the car in front it was an overtake.

This happens when you read to reply and not to understand.

I see you conveniently missed out the part of the other driver avoiding a collision.

No, I do understand: I just disagree. Your opinion is that a divebomb where the driver in front needs to take avoiding action is no longer an overtake. I think that is false.

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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:55 am 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
For me I'll will go with Raikkonen, the way he executes his overtakes when he needs to is a thing of beauty!

It's not about the quantity but the quality with Kimi.

Nowadays every dive bomb where the other driver avoids a collision is considered an overtake.


You need both to be the best overtaker. No point in being overtake beautifully if you can manage in once every 5 years.

Nothing wrong with a late move on the breaks.


The question remains best overtaker, and not drier with most overtakes so whether once in 5yrs or once a season opinion stands.


I disagree with your interpretation. It is about the best driver at overtaking. IMO a driver as reluctant to overtake Kimi is not that IMO. Part of being a good overtaker is about being to judge the risk/reward and go for a move when required.

I saw Roberto Carlos score a great free kick once. [color=#FF0000]Doesn't mean he was a better goalscorer than Ronaldo[/color].


Will you look at that, the free kick was so good you actually remember that one free kick, though he took many more that he scored as well.

It perfectly illustrates my point.

He remains a better free kick taker than Ronaldo!


Nobody would say he was a better goalscorer which is the point in question.

Taken to it's logical conclusion if quantity doesn't you must think the best overtaker is the guy who pulled off the best ever overtake. Which of Raikkonen's overtakes do you consider the best ever?


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:36 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:

You need both to be the best overtaker. No point in being overtake beautifully if you can manage in once every 5 years.


I agree. In my opinion the best overtaker is the driver who improved his career race results most by his overtaking prowess. So quantity is decisive rather than quality. And it's my thread! :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:55 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:

Nobody would say he was a better goalscorer which is the point in question.

Taken to it's logical conclusion if quantity doesn't you must think the best overtaker is the guy who pulled off the best ever overtake. Which of Raikkonen's overtakes do you consider the best ever?


His pass on Fisichella for the race lead at Suzuka springs to mind.

His side by side millimetres apart with Schumi in interlagos.

Nowadays DRS assisted passes makes people forget what overtaking really looks like!

Since '14 the top 3 cars barring any mishaps will get back to the front from the back of the grid thus the quantity of overtakes have increased.


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:38 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Nobody would say he was a better goalscorer which is the point in question.

Taken to it's logical conclusion if quantity doesn't you must think the best overtaker is the guy who pulled off the best ever overtake. Which of Raikkonen's overtakes do you consider the best ever?


His pass on Fisichella for the race lead at Suzuka springs to mind.

His side by side millimetres apart with Schumi in interlagos.

Nowadays DRS assisted passes makes people forget what overtaking really looks like!

Since '14 the top 3 cars barring any mishaps will get back to the front from the back of the grid thus the quantity of overtakes have increased.


Anything a little more recent? You'd think the best overtaker would have been able to pull off a memorable overtake in the last 15 years of his career.


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:45 pm 
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Whilst Hamilton is clearly in my mind one of the greatest drivers ever, his passing over recent years hasn't impressed me because he tends to use the technique of going down the inside and driving the driver on the outside off the circuit, leaving him no choice. It was never penalised so I am not blaming him. It just isn't something that for me makes a good pass. It's like, here I am, I'm running wide regardless so crash in to me or get off the circuit.

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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:59 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Nowadays every dive bomb where the other driver avoids a collision is considered an overtake.

Every dive bomb that works is an overtake. You can debate whether they're good overtakes, but if the car behind becomes the car in front it was an overtake.

No, I don't think it's debatable. If you divebomb in a state that is out of your own hands to avoid contact, you are therefore out of control and it is up to the driver being overtaken who is under full control to avoid the out of control driver in order to prevent a collision. THAT is not a proper overtake. A proper overtake is when both drivers have their cars on the limit and both have their cars under control and one out does the other fair and square on track while trying to outdo one another not one driver trying to avoid a kamikaze move. Sorry, but your statement holds as much water as an open straw can hold.

Ricciardo has made some brilliant overtakes while under full control , and then he's made a bunch that were pure divebombs where other drivers took evasive action to avoid the crash instead of racing him to either keep him at bay or continue the battle for a few more corners. When a driver is forced to take evasive action, more often then not, their ability to continue to fight is completely compromised and the divebomber gains an unfair advantage due to the other driver yielding real estate that affords the out of control driver the space gather it up enough to keep it on track at a higher rate of speed than the other driver who is now on the marbles and often off-track.

And let's not forget how banging wheels today and forcing one another off track has become the new accepted way of doing things. It's a shame it has been allowed to evolve in this manner and the FIA and Race Control should think better and write specific verbiage outlawing those practices.

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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:20 pm 
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The best overtaker has to be Shumacher hands down.
He overtook so many people without aides and farcical systems and lapped the field more than anyone I can ever recall.

Jim Clark was equally better than the competition in his time with us, but he also usually drove a car of superior design that afforded him an advantage as well. That said, he'd often take to the track with teammates and have them follow him at speeds lower than actual grand prix speeds, to teach them his lines and how to approach corners for several laps until they got it down, and then he'd turn it all the way up, and none of them could keep up with him which is similar to how Michael was simply superior to all his teammates.

Because of his sheer cleanliness and FAIR driving Kimi is by far #2 for me, followed by Hamilton.

Jaques Villeneuve was quite superb initially, until he signed his career away for the money and left Williams.

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KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:29 pm 
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Hugely biased as a Nigel Mansell fan, so I'll list the following:
- That dummy and pass on Piquet at Silverstone in 1987
- Opportunist pass on Senna whilst lapping a driver in Hungary 1989
- Going around the outside of Berger at the infamous Peredalta in Mexico, 1990
- Side-by-side with Senna down the pit straight at Catalunya, 1991

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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:17 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Nowadays every dive bomb where the other driver avoids a collision is considered an overtake.

Every dive bomb that works is an overtake. You can debate whether they're good overtakes, but if the car behind becomes the car in front it was an overtake.

No, I don't think it's debatable. If you divebomb in a state that is out of your own hands to avoid contact, you are therefore out of control and it is up to the driver being overtaken who is under full control to avoid the out of control driver in order to prevent a collision. THAT is not a proper overtake. A proper overtake is when both drivers have their cars on the limit and both have their cars under control and one out does the other fair and square on track while trying to outdo one another not one driver trying to avoid a kamikaze move. Sorry, but your statement holds as much water as an open straw can hold.

Ricciardo has made some brilliant overtakes while under full control , and then he's made a bunch that were pure divebombs where other drivers took evasive action to avoid the crash instead of racing him to either keep him at bay or continue the battle for a few more corners. When a driver is forced to take evasive action, more often then not, their ability to continue to fight is completely compromised and the divebomber gains an unfair advantage due to the other driver yielding real estate that affords the out of control driver the space gather it up enough to keep it on track at a higher rate of speed than the other driver who is now on the marbles and often off-track.

And let's not forget how banging wheels today and forcing one another off track has become the new accepted way of doing things. It's a shame it has been allowed to evolve in this manner and the FIA and Race Control should think better and write specific verbiage outlawing those practices.



I have just googled overtake to see what definition came up and got 'catch up with and pass while travelling in the same direction.'

I agree with Exediron. Ultimately it doesn't matter, if you get past and don't take the other person out then it's an overtake. It's that simple in my opinion.

Whether it's a good overtake or not, is a different debate.


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:24 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Whilst Hamilton is clearly in my mind one of the greatest drivers ever, his passing over recent years hasn't impressed me because he tends to use the technique of going down the inside and driving the driver on the outside off the circuit, leaving him no choice. It was never penalised so I am not blaming him. It just isn't something that for me makes a good pass. It's like, here I am, I'm running wide regardless so crash in to me or get off the circuit.


Hamilton's passes on Vettel in Bahrain and Spa and Brazil were all around the outside. His pass on Bottas in Hungary didn't involve him pushing Bottas out. His pass on Verstappen in Hungary (also on the outside) was of no greater difficulty than Verstappen's on Leclerc in Austria, but he made sure to do it without contact or pushing his opponent out.


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:04 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Nowadays every dive bomb where the other driver avoids a collision is considered an overtake.

Every dive bomb that works is an overtake. You can debate whether they're good overtakes, but if the car behind becomes the car in front it was an overtake.

No, I don't think it's debatable. If you divebomb in a state that is out of your own hands to avoid contact, you are therefore out of control and it is up to the driver being overtaken who is under full control to avoid the out of control driver in order to prevent a collision. THAT is not a proper overtake. A proper overtake is when both drivers have their cars on the limit and both have their cars under control and one out does the other fair and square on track while trying to outdo one another not one driver trying to avoid a kamikaze move. Sorry, but your statement holds as much water as an open straw can hold.

Ricciardo has made some brilliant overtakes while under full control , and then he's made a bunch that were pure divebombs where other drivers took evasive action to avoid the crash instead of racing him to either keep him at bay or continue the battle for a few more corners. When a driver is forced to take evasive action, more often then not, their ability to continue to fight is completely compromised and the divebomber gains an unfair advantage due to the other driver yielding real estate that affords the out of control driver the space gather it up enough to keep it on track at a higher rate of speed than the other driver who is now on the marbles and often off-track.

And let's not forget how banging wheels today and forcing one another off track has become the new accepted way of doing things. It's a shame it has been allowed to evolve in this manner and the FIA and Race Control should think better and write specific verbiage outlawing those practices.


Just about any overtake that happens in a corner requires the driver being overtaken to take evasive action.

It is almost always incumbent on the overtaken driver leaving room and not taking his desired line.


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:23 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Nowadays every dive bomb where the other driver avoids a collision is considered an overtake.

Every dive bomb that works is an overtake. You can debate whether they're good overtakes, but if the car behind becomes the car in front it was an overtake.

No, I don't think it's debatable. If you divebomb in a state that is out of your own hands to avoid contact, you are therefore out of control and it is up to the driver being overtaken who is under full control to avoid the out of control driver in order to prevent a collision. THAT is not a proper overtake. A proper overtake is when both drivers have their cars on the limit and both have their cars under control and one out does the other fair and square on track while trying to outdo one another not one driver trying to avoid a kamikaze move. Sorry, but your statement holds as much water as an open straw can hold.

Ricciardo has made some brilliant overtakes while under full control , and then he's made a bunch that were pure divebombs where other drivers took evasive action to avoid the crash instead of racing him to either keep him at bay or continue the battle for a few more corners. When a driver is forced to take evasive action, more often then not, their ability to continue to fight is completely compromised and the divebomber gains an unfair advantage due to the other driver yielding real estate that affords the out of control driver the space gather it up enough to keep it on track at a higher rate of speed than the other driver who is now on the marbles and often off-track.

And let's not forget how banging wheels today and forcing one another off track has become the new accepted way of doing things. It's a shame it has been allowed to evolve in this manner and the FIA and Race Control should think better and write specific verbiage outlawing those practices.



I have just googled overtake to see what definition came up and got 'catch up with and pass while travelling in the same direction.'

I agree with Exediron. Ultimately it doesn't matter, if you get past and don't take the other person out then it's an overtake. It's that simple in my opinion.

Whether it's a good overtake or not, is a different debate.


Yea I certainly can't see why they don't count as an overtake if they work and no damage or contact happens, but I myself am certainly not a fan of them. These are the sort of moves that some drivers (such as bottas as an example) virtually never do. As doing them almost always require the other driver to be extremely generous when a lot of the time, they don't have to take the level of avoiding action. But if they didn't, it would end badly and be the overtaker to blame.

Ricciardo is the main one who does a lot of these, which often are successful, but I'd say he was lucky with a lot of them.

Just a couple of overtakes that quickly come to mind as an example of these was Verstappen on Ericsson in China 2015. Ericsson took avoiding action from Verstappen lunging down the inside. Everyone seemed to praise that overtake for some time that year from what I remember. When in fact, I think if Ericsson didn't give him that extra space (which I don't think he had to), then one or both likely will have taken damage or retired and i bet Verstappen will have got a penalty.

Ricciardo on Bottas in Italy 2016 was right on the limit. Another dive down the inside at the first two corners. Basically Bottas had no choice but to cut the kerb which could have bounced him into Ricciardo, but he managed to control it. Coulthard described it as a "pass of absolute confidence" as Ricciardo would not have made that stick had Bottas not given him the space he did, which again, I don't think he should have had to.

There are countless other occasions where Verstappen and Ricciardo especially has done this sort of move and it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't but really depends on the driver you are overtaking. In Monaco with Leclerc rushing up the pack, he did a bianchi 2014 style lunge on the inside of Grosjean, which only worked because of the same reason it worked for Bianchi, the driver being overtaken gave space. Grosjean left just enough and rightly implied it seemed a bit much. Then I think what Grosjean said was proven moments later when Hulkenberg didn't give the same amount of space Grosjean did when Leclerc tried to pas him. And he didn't have to, but it had it's consequences and Leclerc ruined his race.

Although Hamilton usually doesn't have to do much overtaking as he's at the top, when he does, I personally think his more relaxed style is better than Ricciardo's. Strange that I am saying this when i said that I thought Ricciardo was the best overtaker. But I think the red bull not being as fast, meaning that it is likely that they are more involved with getting more overtakes done as well as that it seems to have more grip in the corners has allowed ricciardo to show us more than Hamilton. Now I think about it, I'm not sure I would consider him better than Hamilton in this area.

I myself do think the style of overtakes Ricciardo does are exciting, but I am certainly not a fan of them as the drivers he passes often have to play a part to allow them to work out.


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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 2:22 pm 
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THIS is a proper Overtake and it required patience and calculation and in the end it was CLEAN and at no time was there risk of contact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-ZMQpdX9HQ


THIS is a POOR overtake, but by definition of the rule, it's good overtake according to some in here.

https://youtu.be/cV0G1zN8kJU?t=97



Sorry, but there is a CLEAR distinction between the two and one is unequivocally right and the other unequivocally wrong, with no gray area to play with.
A proper overtake requires perfect timing and actions taken by the attacking driver to set himself up to better take the corner or series of corners to be able to either enter or exit more quickly than the guy ahead to get past. That said, there can be close ones where the attacking driver occupies a piece of real estate that forces the defending driver to move over a bit and give room and those are fine, but when a driver is either dive bombing and requires evasive action by the defending driver to avoid what would otherwise result in inevitable contact, OR as Verstappen did to Leclerc and boldly decides to shove the other driver off the track, with no regard or care whether contact occurs or not, so long as they get the position… I'm sorry, but that IS NOT a proper overtake.

If both cars end up washing out and losing it and both have to take steps to gather up the car, and keep from going around or crashing and it results in contact, then those situations need to be assessed individually, and blame can sometimes be apportioned to one driver or neither driver, or both.

But to suggest that a driver getting past by any means necessary, so long as they end up ahead deems it a proper overtake, is just about the most incorrect statement I have ever read on any online forum.

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 Post subject: Re: Best overtaker
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 7:08 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
THIS is a proper Overtake and it required patience and calculation and in the end it was CLEAN and at no time was there risk of contact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-ZMQpdX9HQ

THIS is a POOR overtake, but by definition of the rule, it's good overtake according to some in here.

https://youtu.be/cV0G1zN8kJU?t=97

Sorry, but there is a CLEAR distinction between the two and one is unequivocally right and the other unequivocally wrong, with no gray area to play with.

I hope it felt good to score some solid points against the straw man you're arguing against.

No one said that a move like Verstappen's is a good overtake. It's sloppy and I hated it. But it is an overtake.

Rockie wrote:
Nowadays every dive bomb where the other driver avoids a collision is considered an overtake.
Exediron wrote:
Every dive bomb that works is an overtake. You can debate whether they're good overtakes, but if the car behind becomes the car in front it was an overtake.
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
No, I don't think it's debatable. If you divebomb in a state that is out of your own hands to avoid contact, you are therefore out of control and it is up to the driver being overtaken who is under full control to avoid the out of control driver in order to prevent a collision. THAT is not a proper overtake.

We can see clearly with this string of quotes how you're the one who moved the goal posts from 'an overtake' to 'a proper overtake'. The initial debate was over Rockie's assertion that a dive bomb is not an overtake at all, which was challenged. No one has actually challenged the notion that dive bombs are not good overtakes.

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