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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:10 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
F1Oz wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
In 2010 I'd go so far as to put Kubica top. He was an absolute machine, whereas Hamilton made mistakes which cost him the Championship in Monza and Singapore.

Rosberg will always been an enigma in that period as we don't really know how much speed MSC had lost. Much like Vettel always looking comfortable against an aging Webber or Kimi, then being upset by a quicker Ric or Charles coming along.


Err, webber was clearly superior to Rosberg at Williams - and Vettel only won the WDC in 2010 due to team orders, getting the engines that had slightly better performance and a touch of luck - Vettel was a superb qualifier and this got him often the lead and ability to draw away while Webber lost out to one or more behind costing him time and position - Webber deserved 2010 - how much was the remaining period due to team orders? We all know the rookie Ricciardo blew Vettel away


That's a bit of a selective memory... Vettel lose wins in Australia, Bahrain and Korea. Vettel was clearly the better driver that year. His bad luck kept Webber in it. Without losing those wins he would have beaten everybody by over 50 points.


Plus Webber basically had perfect reliability that year. He threw it away with those accidents in Korea and Valencia.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:22 am 
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Banana Man wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1Oz wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
In 2010 I'd go so far as to put Kubica top. He was an absolute machine, whereas Hamilton made mistakes which cost him the Championship in Monza and Singapore.

Rosberg will always been an enigma in that period as we don't really know how much speed MSC had lost. Much like Vettel always looking comfortable against an aging Webber or Kimi, then being upset by a quicker Ric or Charles coming along.


Err, webber was clearly superior to Rosberg at Williams - and Vettel only won the WDC in 2010 due to team orders, getting the engines that had slightly better performance and a touch of luck - Vettel was a superb qualifier and this got him often the lead and ability to draw away while Webber lost out to one or more behind costing him time and position - Webber deserved 2010 - how much was the remaining period due to team orders? We all know the rookie Ricciardo blew Vettel away


That's a bit of a selective memory... Vettel lose wins in Australia, Bahrain and Korea. Vettel was clearly the better driver that year. His bad luck kept Webber in it. Without losing those wins he would have beaten everybody by over 50 points.


Plus Webber basically had perfect reliability that year. He threw it away with those accidents in Korea and Valencia.

Not to mention that apart from a brief period around Spain-Monaco, Webber was basically slower than Vettel all season.

Look at the other races where Webber beat Vettel:

Australia - Vettel’s brakes expire from the lead
Turkey - Vettel’s suspension fails in qualifying which costs him pole position (he was 4 tenths up after sector 2). Vettel is quicker throughout the race until they crash.
Britain - Vettel gets a puncture on lap one, that incident was not his fault.
Hungary - Vettel slows down too much under the SC and gets a drive through.
Belgium - Vettel crashes when ahead of Webber

Honestly, Webber was massively flattered by circumstances in 2010. He had a reliable RB6, he was slower than Vettel all season but benefited massively from Vettel’s mistakes and bad luck, and he still couldn’t bring the title home.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:26 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Hungary - Vettel slows down too much under the SC and gets a drive through.

Ugh I remember this one. It's up there with the most ridiculous penalties I can recall. I don't know of any other instance of that rule being enforced, before or since.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:55 pm 
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j man wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hungary - Vettel slows down too much under the SC and gets a drive through.

Ugh I remember this one. It's up there with the most ridiculous penalties I can recall. I don't know of any other instance of that rule being enforced, before or since.

It was done to help out Webber who needed to pit and was going too lose several places so it wasn't a lack of concentration on Vettel's part, it was a deliberate tactical ploy.

It's kind of strange that Vettel was requested to help Webber when we are told by some that the team was 100% behind Vettel, Vettel was penalised and it cost him the race win.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:11 pm 
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j man wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hungary - Vettel slows down too much under the SC and gets a drive through.

Ugh I remember this one. It's up there with the most ridiculous penalties I can recall. I don't know of any other instance of that rule being enforced, before or since.


Bottas at Monaco last season for example wasn't punished for doing the same thing.

Hamilton got a penalty at Bahrain in 2017 I think for being slow heading into the pitlane. Would that count as an example of the rule being enforced?

Edited to change the bit about Hamilton's 2017 penalty not being under safety car, just rewatched highlights and it was. So I guess that is another instance of that rule being enforced.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:01 am 
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I believe that Hamilton at Bahrain 2017 was punished for braking excessively in the pit-lane entrance rather than for the gap he left to Bottas, a slightly different penalty.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:00 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
I believe that Hamilton at Bahrain 2017 was punished for braking excessively in the pit-lane entrance rather than for the gap he left to Bottas, a slightly different penalty.


Fair enough, I stand corrected :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:45 am 
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JN23 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I believe that Hamilton at Bahrain 2017 was punished for braking excessively in the pit-lane entrance rather than for the gap he left to Bottas, a slightly different penalty.


Fair enough, I stand corrected :thumbup:

Yea from the race that i have recorded in bahrain 2017, it did look like Hamilton braked suddenly just before the pit lane speed limit came in. He had already been slowing down quite a lot resulting in Ricciardo getting closer to him.

I'm guessing Bottas didn't get punished in Monaco as he slowed down under safety car conditions and didn't do an abrupt change of speed before and in the pit lane that was slower than the minimum like Hamilton did.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:13 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
JN23 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I believe that Hamilton at Bahrain 2017 was punished for braking excessively in the pit-lane entrance rather than for the gap he left to Bottas, a slightly different penalty.


Fair enough, I stand corrected :thumbup:

Yea from the race that i have recorded in bahrain 2017, it did look like Hamilton braked suddenly just before the pit lane speed limit came in. He had already been slowing down quite a lot resulting in Ricciardo getting closer to him.

I'm guessing Bottas didn't get punished in Monaco as he slowed down under safety car conditions and didn't do an abrupt change of speed before and in the pit lane that was slower than the minimum like Hamilton did.


You still aren't actually allowed to do that but the stewards always take a pretty whimsical attitude to applying the rules.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:22 am 
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Both are punishable under the current rules, Bottas should have been penalised at Monaco but got away with it (probably because Verstappen? was unsafely released into him and damaged his car and he needed to pit again right after)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:13 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
JN23 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I believe that Hamilton at Bahrain 2017 was punished for braking excessively in the pit-lane entrance rather than for the gap he left to Bottas, a slightly different penalty.


Fair enough, I stand corrected :thumbup:

Yea from the race that i have recorded in bahrain 2017, it did look like Hamilton braked suddenly just before the pit lane speed limit came in. He had already been slowing down quite a lot resulting in Ricciardo getting closer to him.

I'm guessing Bottas didn't get punished in Monaco as he slowed down under safety car conditions and didn't do an abrupt change of speed before and in the pit lane that was slower than the minimum like Hamilton did.


You still aren't actually allowed to do that but the stewards always take a pretty whimsical attitude to applying the rules.


You are not allowed to drive slowly under safety car? Fair enough sudden braking with cars directly behind is not sensible, but gradually slowing down a bit earlier for the pit lane slow surely isn't a problem. It was a safety car not a VSC as well, so you don't have to stick to a consistent speed. Bottas didn't even get investigated and I thought in the review of the race, Mercedes explained why Bottas wasn't punished and said that he judged it perfectly.

If something happens, it usually gets noted or investigated instantly, even if the penalty (if there is one) is delayed, but none of this happened. I don't see how an unrelated accident in the pit lane would stop them looking into it. There have been other occasions where 2 incidents even involving the same driver have been right next to each other and the first one doesn't just get forgotten about. Given that Red Bull I think complained about what Bottas did and he still didn't get a penalty, I think it must have been allowed in the past few years. Bottas did exactly the same in baku 2018 as well when he got his free pit stop and the crew were not quite ready.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:16 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
JN23 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I believe that Hamilton at Bahrain 2017 was punished for braking excessively in the pit-lane entrance rather than for the gap he left to Bottas, a slightly different penalty.


Fair enough, I stand corrected :thumbup:

Yea from the race that i have recorded in bahrain 2017, it did look like Hamilton braked suddenly just before the pit lane speed limit came in. He had already been slowing down quite a lot resulting in Ricciardo getting closer to him.

I'm guessing Bottas didn't get punished in Monaco as he slowed down under safety car conditions and didn't do an abrupt change of speed before and in the pit lane that was slower than the minimum like Hamilton did.


You still aren't actually allowed to do that but the stewards always take a pretty whimsical attitude to applying the rules.


You are not allowed to drive slowly under safety car? Fair enough sudden braking with cars directly behind is not sensible, but gradually slowing down a bit earlier for the pit lane slow surely isn't a problem. It was a safety car not a VSC as well, so you don't have to stick to a consistent speed. Bottas didn't even get investigated and I thought in the review of the race, Mercedes explained why Bottas wasn't punished and said that he judged it perfectly.

If something happens, it usually gets noted or investigated instantly, even if the penalty (if there is one) is delayed, but none of this happened. I don't see how an unrelated accident in the pit lane would stop them looking into it. There have been other occasions where 2 incidents even involving the same driver have been right next to each other and the first one doesn't just get forgotten about. Given that Red Bull I think complained about what Bottas did and he still didn't get a penalty, I think it must have been allowed in the past few years. Bottas did exactly the same in baku 2018 as well when he got his free pit stop and the crew were not quite ready.


I thought it's not about the speed, but the number of car lengths that they can fall behind the SC. If they go too slow then they'll go over that allowance (was it like 10 car lengths or something? I can not remember from memory to be honest.)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:18 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
JN23 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I believe that Hamilton at Bahrain 2017 was punished for braking excessively in the pit-lane entrance rather than for the gap he left to Bottas, a slightly different penalty.


Fair enough, I stand corrected :thumbup:

Yea from the race that i have recorded in bahrain 2017, it did look like Hamilton braked suddenly just before the pit lane speed limit came in. He had already been slowing down quite a lot resulting in Ricciardo getting closer to him.

I'm guessing Bottas didn't get punished in Monaco as he slowed down under safety car conditions and didn't do an abrupt change of speed before and in the pit lane that was slower than the minimum like Hamilton did.


You still aren't actually allowed to do that but the stewards always take a pretty whimsical attitude to applying the rules.


You are not allowed to drive slowly under safety car? Fair enough sudden braking with cars directly behind is not sensible, but gradually slowing down a bit earlier for the pit lane slow surely isn't a problem. It was a safety car not a VSC as well, so you don't have to stick to a consistent speed. Bottas didn't even get investigated and I thought in the review of the race, Mercedes explained why Bottas wasn't punished and said that he judged it perfectly.

If something happens, it usually gets noted or investigated instantly, even if the penalty (if there is one) is delayed, but none of this happened. I don't see how an unrelated accident in the pit lane would stop them looking into it. There have been other occasions where 2 incidents even involving the same driver have been right next to each other and the first one doesn't just get forgotten about. Given that Red Bull I think complained about what Bottas did and he still didn't get a penalty, I think it must have been allowed in the past few years. Bottas did exactly the same in baku 2018 as well when he got his free pit stop and the crew were not quite ready.


You aren't allowed to drive deliberately slowly in order to create a a gap to your team mate in front to allow you both to pit on the same lap without double stacking. This is what Bottas did. I'm afraid the stewards are way, way to inconsistent for their actions to be used as evidence in anyway as to what is or isn't legal.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:28 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Fair enough, I stand corrected :thumbup:

Yea from the race that i have recorded in bahrain 2017, it did look like Hamilton braked suddenly just before the pit lane speed limit came in. He had already been slowing down quite a lot resulting in Ricciardo getting closer to him.

I'm guessing Bottas didn't get punished in Monaco as he slowed down under safety car conditions and didn't do an abrupt change of speed before and in the pit lane that was slower than the minimum like Hamilton did.


You still aren't actually allowed to do that but the stewards always take a pretty whimsical attitude to applying the rules.


You are not allowed to drive slowly under safety car? Fair enough sudden braking with cars directly behind is not sensible, but gradually slowing down a bit earlier for the pit lane slow surely isn't a problem. It was a safety car not a VSC as well, so you don't have to stick to a consistent speed. Bottas didn't even get investigated and I thought in the review of the race, Mercedes explained why Bottas wasn't punished and said that he judged it perfectly.

If something happens, it usually gets noted or investigated instantly, even if the penalty (if there is one) is delayed, but none of this happened. I don't see how an unrelated accident in the pit lane would stop them looking into it. There have been other occasions where 2 incidents even involving the same driver have been right next to each other and the first one doesn't just get forgotten about. Given that Red Bull I think complained about what Bottas did and he still didn't get a penalty, I think it must have been allowed in the past few years. Bottas did exactly the same in baku 2018 as well when he got his free pit stop and the crew were not quite ready.


I thought it's not about the speed, but the number of car lengths that they can fall behind the SC. If they go too slow then they'll go over that allowance (was it like 10 car lengths or something? I can not remember from memory to be honest.)

Yeah It's something like that, Bottas was judged to have not broke that rule.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Yea from the race that i have recorded in bahrain 2017, it did look like Hamilton braked suddenly just before the pit lane speed limit came in. He had already been slowing down quite a lot resulting in Ricciardo getting closer to him.

I'm guessing Bottas didn't get punished in Monaco as he slowed down under safety car conditions and didn't do an abrupt change of speed before and in the pit lane that was slower than the minimum like Hamilton did.


You still aren't actually allowed to do that but the stewards always take a pretty whimsical attitude to applying the rules.


You are not allowed to drive slowly under safety car? Fair enough sudden braking with cars directly behind is not sensible, but gradually slowing down a bit earlier for the pit lane slow surely isn't a problem. It was a safety car not a VSC as well, so you don't have to stick to a consistent speed. Bottas didn't even get investigated and I thought in the review of the race, Mercedes explained why Bottas wasn't punished and said that he judged it perfectly.

If something happens, it usually gets noted or investigated instantly, even if the penalty (if there is one) is delayed, but none of this happened. I don't see how an unrelated accident in the pit lane would stop them looking into it. There have been other occasions where 2 incidents even involving the same driver have been right next to each other and the first one doesn't just get forgotten about. Given that Red Bull I think complained about what Bottas did and he still didn't get a penalty, I think it must have been allowed in the past few years. Bottas did exactly the same in baku 2018 as well when he got his free pit stop and the crew were not quite ready.


I thought it's not about the speed, but the number of car lengths that they can fall behind the SC. If they go too slow then they'll go over that allowance (was it like 10 car lengths or something? I can not remember from memory to be honest.)

Yeah It's something like that, Bottas was judged to have not broke that rule.


It makes sense really. They can't go too fast or they'll overtake the SC and they can't go too slow or they'll fall behind the 10 (or so!) car lengths. So in a sense no, you can't drive too slow, not for a long time as this will make you exceed the lengths-behind-the-SC limit.

Also, yeay, we agree on something Poker! (Just joking, we need to keep the spirits up these days!)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:54 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
You still aren't actually allowed to do that but the stewards always take a pretty whimsical attitude to applying the rules.


You are not allowed to drive slowly under safety car? Fair enough sudden braking with cars directly behind is not sensible, but gradually slowing down a bit earlier for the pit lane slow surely isn't a problem. It was a safety car not a VSC as well, so you don't have to stick to a consistent speed. Bottas didn't even get investigated and I thought in the review of the race, Mercedes explained why Bottas wasn't punished and said that he judged it perfectly.

If something happens, it usually gets noted or investigated instantly, even if the penalty (if there is one) is delayed, but none of this happened. I don't see how an unrelated accident in the pit lane would stop them looking into it. There have been other occasions where 2 incidents even involving the same driver have been right next to each other and the first one doesn't just get forgotten about. Given that Red Bull I think complained about what Bottas did and he still didn't get a penalty, I think it must have been allowed in the past few years. Bottas did exactly the same in baku 2018 as well when he got his free pit stop and the crew were not quite ready.


I thought it's not about the speed, but the number of car lengths that they can fall behind the SC. If they go too slow then they'll go over that allowance (was it like 10 car lengths or something? I can not remember from memory to be honest.)

Yeah It's something like that, Bottas was judged to have not broke that rule.


It makes sense really. They can't go too fast or they'll overtake the SC and they can't go too slow or they'll fall behind the 10 (or so!) car lengths. So in a sense no, you can't drive too slow, not for a long time as this will make you exceed the lengths-behind-the-SC limit.

Also, yeay, we agree on something Poker! (Just joking, we need to keep the spirits up these days!)

It's weird every time I venture out it's like I'm on the set of an apocalyptic movie, this only happens in films.

We just need to stay healthy for the next few months and the next time we all will be better prepared, this didn't need to be this bad if not for the politics and apathy of those in charge.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:38 pm 
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2010
Kubica
Alonso
Hamilton

2011
Vettel
Button
Alonso

2012
Alonso
Raikkonen
Hamilton

2013
Vettel
Alonso
Raikkonen

2014
Ricciardo
Hamilton
Bottas

2015
Hamilton
Vettel
Ricciardo

2016
Alonso
Ricciardo
Hamilton

2017
Hamilton
Ricciardo
Verstappen

2018
Hamilton
Alonso
Hulkenburg

2019
Hamilton
Verstappen
Sainz

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