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As there is nothing better to do. Who were the best performing drivers in each season of the 2010s decade?

As it stands, this is my top 3 for each year:

2010:
1. Hamilton
2. Kubica
3. Rosberg

2011:
1. Vettel
2. Alonso
3. Button

2012:
1. Alonso
2. Hamilton
3. Vettel

2013:
1. Vettel
2. Alonso
3. Raikkonen

2014:
1. Ricciardo
2. Alonso
3. Hamilton

2015:
1. Vettel
2. Hamilton
3. Perez

2016:
1. Alonso
2. Hamilton
3. Ricciardo

2017:
1. Hamilton
2. Verstappen
3. Alonso

2018:
1. Hamilton
2. Alonso
3. Verstappen

2019:
1. Hamilton
2. Verstappen
3. Sainz

In 2010 I'd go so far as to put Kubica top. He was an absolute machine, whereas Hamilton made mistakes which cost him the Championship in Monza and Singapore.

Rosberg will always been an enigma in that period as we don't really know how much speed MSC had lost. Much like Vettel always looking comfortable against an aging Webber or Kimi, then being upset by a quicker Ric or Charles coming along.

Trying to draw this up made me realise how much the Turbo era all meshes into 1 in my mind. I had to look up individual seasons to jog my memory. Something I wouldn't have to do for anything pre 2014. Anyway -

2010
Kubica
Hamilton
Alonso

2011
Vettel
Alonso
Button

2012
Alonso
Hamilton
Perez

2013
Vettel
Alonso
Hulkenberg

2014
Ricciardo
Alonso
Hulkenberg

2015
Vettel
Perez
Ricciardo

2016
Alonso
Ricciardo
Perez

2017
Hamilton
Verstappen
Ricciardo

2018
Hamilton
Alonso
Verstappen

2019
Hamilton
Verstappen
Bottas

Mine is more of an overall view of how I rate the drivers with each season refining that opinion so the tendency is to have the same drivers more or less.

2010
Hamilton
Alonso
Vettel

2011
Alonso
Vettel
Button

2012
Alonso
Vettel
Hamilton

2013
Vettel
Alonso
Hamilton

2014
Alonso
Hamilton
Ricciardo

2015
Hamilton
Alonso
Vettel

2016
Hamilton
Alonso
Ricciardo

2017
Hamilton
Alonso
Vettel

2018
Hamilton
Alonso
Verstappen

2019
Hamilton
Verstappen
Ricciardo

It is hard actually remembering what I thought at the time and not letting hindsight interfere at times.

I'm a bit surprised that Alonso is so high in his later years from the lists so far. I think that he wasn't that amazing at McLaren and certainly wasn't without mistakes. The last race in 2015 and first in 2016 were both pretty clumsy. One big enough to force him to miss the next race. The car was indeed poor, but I'm not sure what he did to prove he was the best out there in any of the years since 2015.

Looking at the driver rankings on racefans.net, Alonso was rated 4th from 2016 to 2018 each year in a row which I think is about right. However, in 2015, he was 14th which seemed pretty low. But I don't think I could vote him even close to the top 5 that year myself.



Agree that Vettel was best in 2015. Many on racefans.net were surprised when I mentioned I thought Vettel was the best that year more recently but it seems people here so far also think that. He was rated first there that year too.





https://www.racefans.net/2015/12/17/201 ... gio-perez/

I think I didn't realise quite how well Perez did in 2015. I first thought he was being a bit over rated here but I looked back at some articles and he did better than I remember him doing.




I didn't watch every race in 2014 and that was the first year I started following it more. Was only after that i watched every race. From 2015 onwards, I would say the best driver of each season is in this order:

Vettel

Hamilton

Hamilton

Hamilton

Hamilton

I'm not sure yet who I would vote 3rd and 2nd for each of these seasons, but as I said, I personally think Alonso is being somewhat over rated.

2010:
1. Kubica & Hamilton
3. Rosberg

2011:
1. Alonso & Vettel
3. Button

2012:
1. Alonso & Hamilton
3. Vettel

2013:
1. Alonso
2. Vettel
3. Raikkonen

2014:
1. Alonso & Hamilton
3. Ricciardo

2015:
1. Hamilton & Vettel
3. Perez

2016:
1. Alonso
2. Ricciardo
3. Hamilton

2017:
1. Hamilton
2. Alonso
3. Vettel

2018:
1. Hamilton
2. Alonso & Verstappen


2019:
1. Hamilton & Verstappen
3. Bottas

(Edited after further thought...)

Wow! I started to really follow F1 in 2012, thus am still somewhat “new” to the sport. Given his performance against Russell last year, never in a million years would I have thought that Kubica would have ranked at the top of anyone’s list for a given year. Was he really that good? Hamilton spoke very highly of him a few months back, I thought he was just being kind.

I don’t want to detail the thread, but this is quite surprising. I feel a bit sorry for him now.

Maybe Kubica had a really good car and a weak teammate in 2010? Same goes for Hulkenberg in 2013 for example. But of course, if you are a fan, you are not going to entertain that line of thought.

motorfinger wrote:Maybe Kubica had a really good car and a weak teammate in 2010? Same goes for Hulkenberg in 2013 for example. But of course, if you are a fan, you are not going to entertain that line of thought.

Kubica was certainly a very good driver 2008-2010. Don't forget he stood toe to toe with top drivers in 2008 and IMO would have won the WDC had BMW not given up on development. If he was tier 1 or perhaps just short we will never know but for those 3 years he was definitely among the best drivers on the grid.

mikeyg123 wrote:

motorfinger wrote:Maybe Kubica had a really good car and a weak teammate in 2010? Same goes for Hulkenberg in 2013 for example. But of course, if you are a fan, you are not going to entertain that line of thought.

Kubica was certainly a very good driver 2008-2010. Don't forget he stood toe to toe with top drivers in 2008 and IMO would have won the WDC had BMW not given up on development. If he was tier 1 or perhaps just short we will never know but for those 3 years he was definitely among the best drivers on the grid.

Kubica would go top of my list for 2010, he was excellent that year. Some of his qualifying performances (Monaco and Suzuka come to mind) defied belief, and it's no surprise he had a Ferrari contract in his back pocket before his rallying accident ruined everything.

I'm always slightly baffled by people rating Alonso's 2010 season so highly. He made multiple errors in the first half of that year, it was the poorest spell of his career that I can recall.

j man wrote:I'm always slightly baffled by people rating Alonso's 2010 season so highly. He made multiple errors in the first half of that year, it was the poorest spell of his career that I can recall.

I thought this too but I can understand an argument saying that Alonso took the title to the last race despite being in a car that wasn't a match for the Red Bull over the season. Hamilton and Kubica should definitely be ahead though, which most people seem to think anyway.

mikeyg123 wrote:

motorfinger wrote:Maybe Kubica had a really good car and a weak teammate in 2010? Same goes for Hulkenberg in 2013 for example. But of course, if you are a fan, you are not going to entertain that line of thought.

Kubica was certainly a very good driver 2008-2010. Don't forget he stood toe to toe with top drivers in 2008 and IMO would have won the WDC had BMW not given up on development. If he was tier 1 or perhaps just short we will never know but for those 3 years he was definitely among the best drivers on the grid.

I don't think he justified the hype surrounding him. Maybe he was top 5-6 driver in his best years, but top 3? I have my doubts. He was beaten by Heidfeld couple of seasons, had journeyman Petrov as a teammate in his supposedly best year.

motorfinger wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

motorfinger wrote:Maybe Kubica had a really good car and a weak teammate in 2010? Same goes for Hulkenberg in 2013 for example. But of course, if you are a fan, you are not going to entertain that line of thought.

Kubica was certainly a very good driver 2008-2010. Don't forget he stood toe to toe with top drivers in 2008 and IMO would have won the WDC had BMW not given up on development. If he was tier 1 or perhaps just short we will never know but for those 3 years he was definitely among the best drivers on the grid.

I don't think he justified the hype surrounding him. Maybe he was top 5-6 driver in his best years, but top 3? I have my doubts. He was beaten by Heidfeld couple of seasons, had journeyman Petrov as a teammate in his supposedly best year.

I know these things aren't perfect but you could do a Kubica-Petrov-Kovalainen-Hamilton comparison to see how Kubica stacks up to Hamilton.

motorfinger wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

motorfinger wrote:Maybe Kubica had a really good car and a weak teammate in 2010? Same goes for Hulkenberg in 2013 for example. But of course, if you are a fan, you are not going to entertain that line of thought.

Kubica was certainly a very good driver 2008-2010. Don't forget he stood toe to toe with top drivers in 2008 and IMO would have won the WDC had BMW not given up on development. If he was tier 1 or perhaps just short we will never know but for those 3 years he was definitely among the best drivers on the grid.

I don't think he justified the hype surrounding him. Maybe he was top 5-6 driver in his best years, but top 3? I have my doubts. He was beaten by Heidfeld couple of seasons, had journeyman Petrov as a teammate in his supposedly best year.

2008 he was unquestionably one of the best 3 drivers. Had a known quantity as a team mate that he blew away and competed for the WDC in the 3rd best car.

mikeyg123 wrote:

motorfinger wrote:Maybe Kubica had a really good car and a weak teammate in 2010? Same goes for Hulkenberg in 2013 for example. But of course, if you are a fan, you are not going to entertain that line of thought.

Kubica was certainly a very good driver 2008-2010. Don't forget he stood toe to toe with top drivers in 2008 and IMO would have won the WDC had BMW not given up on development. If he was tier 1 or perhaps just short we will never know but for those 3 years he was definitely among the best drivers on the grid.

In 2009 Kubica got edged out by Heidfeld, BMW pulled out at the end of the year and that basically was the end of Heidfeld's career, for me Kubica was top 5 standard, he could have been WDC in the right car like a Button or a Rosberg.

JN23 wrote:

motorfinger wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

motorfinger wrote:Maybe Kubica had a really good car and a weak teammate in 2010? Same goes for Hulkenberg in 2013 for example. But of course, if you are a fan, you are not going to entertain that line of thought.

Kubica was certainly a very good driver 2008-2010. Don't forget he stood toe to toe with top drivers in 2008 and IMO would have won the WDC had BMW not given up on development. If he was tier 1 or perhaps just short we will never know but for those 3 years he was definitely among the best drivers on the grid.

I don't think he justified the hype surrounding him. Maybe he was top 5-6 driver in his best years, but top 3? I have my doubts. He was beaten by Heidfeld couple of seasons, had journeyman Petrov as a teammate in his supposedly best year.

I know these things aren't perfect but you could do a Kubica-Petrov-Kovalainen-Hamilton comparison to see how Kubica stacks up to Hamilton.

Petrov was a rookie, he clearly improved in his second season.

mikeyg123 wrote:

motorfinger wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

motorfinger wrote:Maybe Kubica had a really good car and a weak teammate in 2010? Same goes for Hulkenberg in 2013 for example. But of course, if you are a fan, you are not going to entertain that line of thought.

Kubica was certainly a very good driver 2008-2010. Don't forget he stood toe to toe with top drivers in 2008 and IMO would have won the WDC had BMW not given up on development. If he was tier 1 or perhaps just short we will never know but for those 3 years he was definitely among the best drivers on the grid.

I don't think he justified the hype surrounding him. Maybe he was top 5-6 driver in his best years, but top 3? I have my doubts. He was beaten by Heidfeld couple of seasons, had journeyman Petrov as a teammate in his supposedly best year.

2008 he was unquestionably one of the best 3 drivers. Had a known quantity as a team mate that he blew away and competed for the WDC in the 3rd best car.

Tbh i didn't follow his career that closely, it's just that some of the epithets given to Robert seem quite overblown if you look at his career record. Ok maybe you're right about 2008, many drivers performed badly that year, so placing him in top 3 seems fair.

mikeyg123 wrote:

motorfinger wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

motorfinger wrote:Maybe Kubica had a really good car and a weak teammate in 2010? Same goes for Hulkenberg in 2013 for example. But of course, if you are a fan, you are not going to entertain that line of thought.

Kubica was certainly a very good driver 2008-2010. Don't forget he stood toe to toe with top drivers in 2008 and IMO would have won the WDC had BMW not given up on development. If he was tier 1 or perhaps just short we will never know but for those 3 years he was definitely among the best drivers on the grid.

I don't think he justified the hype surrounding him. Maybe he was top 5-6 driver in his best years, but top 3? I have my doubts. He was beaten by Heidfeld couple of seasons, had journeyman Petrov as a teammate in his supposedly best year.

2008 he was unquestionably one of the best 3 drivers. Had a known quantity as a team mate that he blew away and competed for the WDC in the 3rd best car.

Heidfeld managed to score 80% of Kubica's points, Heidfield beat Kubica more convincingly the year before and edged him the year after. 2007 was Kubica's first full season in F1 but he was racing in F1 the year before and took part in all of the FP1 sessions, he ended up with a 2-2 record against teammates losing 2-1 to Heidfeld and then beating a rookie.

I think Kubica is often remembered for his outstanding performances but the less than stellar performances are quickly forgotten, over 3 years he was nip and tuck with Heidfeld but seen as a driver with a higher ceiling but let's not forget that Heidfeld's standing in the sport would have been little more than a top 10 driver.

pokerman wrote:

JN23 wrote:

motorfinger wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

motorfinger wrote:Maybe Kubica had a really good car and a weak teammate in 2010? Same goes for Hulkenberg in 2013 for example. But of course, if you are a fan, you are not going to entertain that line of thought.

Kubica was certainly a very good driver 2008-2010. Don't forget he stood toe to toe with top drivers in 2008 and IMO would have won the WDC had BMW not given up on development. If he was tier 1 or perhaps just short we will never know but for those 3 years he was definitely among the best drivers on the grid.

I don't think he justified the hype surrounding him. Maybe he was top 5-6 driver in his best years, but top 3? I have my doubts. He was beaten by Heidfeld couple of seasons, had journeyman Petrov as a teammate in his supposedly best year.

I know these things aren't perfect but you could do a Kubica-Petrov-Kovalainen-Hamilton comparison to see how Kubica stacks up to Hamilton.

Petrov was a rookie, he clearly improved in his second season.

That’s a fair point.

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

motorfinger wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

motorfinger wrote:Maybe Kubica had a really good car and a weak teammate in 2010? Same goes for Hulkenberg in 2013 for example. But of course, if you are a fan, you are not going to entertain that line of thought.

Kubica was certainly a very good driver 2008-2010. Don't forget he stood toe to toe with top drivers in 2008 and IMO would have won the WDC had BMW not given up on development. If he was tier 1 or perhaps just short we will never know but for those 3 years he was definitely among the best drivers on the grid.

I don't think he justified the hype surrounding him. Maybe he was top 5-6 driver in his best years, but top 3? I have my doubts. He was beaten by Heidfeld couple of seasons, had journeyman Petrov as a teammate in his supposedly best year.

2008 he was unquestionably one of the best 3 drivers. Had a known quantity as a team mate that he blew away and competed for the WDC in the 3rd best car.

Heidfeld managed to score 80% of Kubica's points, Heidfield beat Kubica more convincingly the year before and edged him the year after. 2007 was Kubica's first full season in F1 but he was racing in F1 the year before and took part in all of the FP1 sessions, he ended up with a 2-2 record against teammates losing 2-1 to Heidfeld and then beating a rookie.

I think Kubica is often remembered for his outstanding performances but the less than stellar performances are quickly forgotten, over 3 years he was nip and tuck with Heidfeld but seen as a driver with a higher ceiling but let's not forget that Heidfeld's standing in the sport would have been little more than a top 10 driver.

TBF take out his rookie season and he had 2 brilliant years and 1 average one. Pretty good.

pokerman wrote:

JN23 wrote:

motorfinger wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

motorfinger wrote:Maybe Kubica had a really good car and a weak teammate in 2010? Same goes for Hulkenberg in 2013 for example. But of course, if you are a fan, you are not going to entertain that line of thought.

Kubica was certainly a very good driver 2008-2010. Don't forget he stood toe to toe with top drivers in 2008 and IMO would have won the WDC had BMW not given up on development. If he was tier 1 or perhaps just short we will never know but for those 3 years he was definitely among the best drivers on the grid.

I don't think he justified the hype surrounding him. Maybe he was top 5-6 driver in his best years, but top 3? I have my doubts. He was beaten by Heidfeld couple of seasons, had journeyman Petrov as a teammate in his supposedly best year.

I know these things aren't perfect but you could do a Kubica-Petrov-Kovalainen-Hamilton comparison to see how Kubica stacks up to Hamilton.

Petrov was a rookie, he clearly improved in his second season.

We can also do a Kubica-Heidfeld-Webber-Vettel comparison to see how Kubica stacks up against Vettel.

From what I remember about 2005, Webber outqualified Heidfeld 9-5 but Heidfeld outscored him 28-24. They were very evenly matched. Webber was a bit quicker and Heidfeld was a bit more consistent. For the sake of the argument, we can simplify it as Webber = Heidfeld.

Let’s just ignore Webber’s decline on Pirelli tyres and only focus on his performances against Vettel in 2009-2010.

How does Kubica compare to Vettel?

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

motorfinger wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote: Kubica was certainly a very good driver 2008-2010. Don't forget he stood toe to toe with top drivers in 2008 and IMO would have won the WDC had BMW not given up on development. If he was tier 1 or perhaps just short we will never know but for those 3 years he was definitely among the best drivers on the grid.

I don't think he justified the hype surrounding him. Maybe he was top 5-6 driver in his best years, but top 3? I have my doubts. He was beaten by Heidfeld couple of seasons, had journeyman Petrov as a teammate in his supposedly best year.

2008 he was unquestionably one of the best 3 drivers. Had a known quantity as a team mate that he blew away and competed for the WDC in the 3rd best car.

Heidfeld managed to score 80% of Kubica's points, Heidfield beat Kubica more convincingly the year before and edged him the year after. 2007 was Kubica's first full season in F1 but he was racing in F1 the year before and took part in all of the FP1 sessions, he ended up with a 2-2 record against teammates losing 2-1 to Heidfeld and then beating a rookie.

I think Kubica is often remembered for his outstanding performances but the less than stellar performances are quickly forgotten, over 3 years he was nip and tuck with Heidfeld but seen as a driver with a higher ceiling but let's not forget that Heidfeld's standing in the sport would have been little more than a top 10 driver.

TBF take out his rookie season and he had 2 brilliant years and 1 average one. Pretty good.

Same team same circumstances, in 2010 with Petrov as a teammate just how good was the car, two years later with Kimi now in the team, how good was the car in 2012 and 2013, Grosjean has never come close to reaching those highs, Kimi went on to be dominated by Alonso and Vettel.

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:

JN23 wrote:

motorfinger wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote: Kubica was certainly a very good driver 2008-2010. Don't forget he stood toe to toe with top drivers in 2008 and IMO would have won the WDC had BMW not given up on development. If he was tier 1 or perhaps just short we will never know but for those 3 years he was definitely among the best drivers on the grid.

I don't think he justified the hype surrounding him. Maybe he was top 5-6 driver in his best years, but top 3? I have my doubts. He was beaten by Heidfeld couple of seasons, had journeyman Petrov as a teammate in his supposedly best year.

I know these things aren't perfect but you could do a Kubica-Petrov-Kovalainen-Hamilton comparison to see how Kubica stacks up to Hamilton.

Petrov was a rookie, he clearly improved in his second season.

We can also do a Kubica-Heidfeld-Webber-Vettel comparison to see how Kubica stacks up against Vettel.

From what I remember about 2005, Webber outqualified Heidfeld 9-5 but Heidfeld outscored him 28-24. They were very evenly matched. Webber was a bit quicker and Heidfeld was a bit more consistent. For the sake of the argument, we can simplify it as Webber = Heidfeld.

Let’s just ignore Webber’s decline on Pirelli tyres and only focus on his performances against Vettel in 2009-2010.

How does Kubica compare to Vettel?

I see 2005 as part of the dark ages were it was difficult to make driver comparisons because of the terrible qualifying systems so I didn't, I took a break, then on top of that in 2005 you wasn't allowed to change tyres in the race.

Generally speaking Webber seemed to be quicker in qualifying but then burn up his tyres in the race, so Webber was a bit like the hare and Heidfeld the tortoise and often they'd meet up towards the end of the race, poor tyre management was often a theme for Webber years later.

An overall impression was that Webber was a little bit better than Heidfeld similar to how Kubica was with Heidfeld, so I would say that Vettel was the better driver.

Invade wrote:2013:
1. Alonso
2. Vettel
3. Raikkonen

With all due respect, could you justify this one?

I mean, Alonso had at least four bad races that year (Malaysia, Monaco, Korea, India) and lost eight times to Massa in qualifying. Meanwhile Vettel beat Webber every weekend and did not have a single bad race all season. His worst weekend was China, and that was an average drive and by no means a poor one.

I thought that 2013 was by far the easiest choice of the bunch. Vettel’s 2013 is quite possibly the most flawless season I have ever seen.

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

motorfinger wrote: I don't think he justified the hype surrounding him. Maybe he was top 5-6 driver in his best years, but top 3? I have my doubts. He was beaten by Heidfeld couple of seasons, had journeyman Petrov as a teammate in his supposedly best year.

2008 he was unquestionably one of the best 3 drivers. Had a known quantity as a team mate that he blew away and competed for the WDC in the 3rd best car.

Heidfeld managed to score 80% of Kubica's points, Heidfield beat Kubica more convincingly the year before and edged him the year after. 2007 was Kubica's first full season in F1 but he was racing in F1 the year before and took part in all of the FP1 sessions, he ended up with a 2-2 record against teammates losing 2-1 to Heidfeld and then beating a rookie.

I think Kubica is often remembered for his outstanding performances but the less than stellar performances are quickly forgotten, over 3 years he was nip and tuck with Heidfeld but seen as a driver with a higher ceiling but let's not forget that Heidfeld's standing in the sport would have been little more than a top 10 driver.

TBF take out his rookie season and he had 2 brilliant years and 1 average one. Pretty good.

Same team same circumstances, in 2010 with Petrov as a teammate just how good was the car, two years later with Kimi now in the team, how good was the car in 2012 and 2013, Grosjean has never come close to reaching those highs, Kimi went on to be dominated by Alonso and Vettel.

I think that's a ridiculous argument. I mean, I could use the same logic to point out that Alonso drove the Renault in 2009 and Kubica did way better with the Renault in 2010.

What more could Kubica have done in 2010 that would have convinced you?

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote: Heidfeld managed to score 80% of Kubica's points, Heidfield beat Kubica more convincingly the year before and edged him the year after. 2007 was Kubica's first full season in F1 but he was racing in F1 the year before and took part in all of the FP1 sessions, he ended up with a 2-2 record against teammates losing 2-1 to Heidfeld and then beating a rookie.

I think Kubica is often remembered for his outstanding performances but the less than stellar performances are quickly forgotten, over 3 years he was nip and tuck with Heidfeld but seen as a driver with a higher ceiling but let's not forget that Heidfeld's standing in the sport would have been little more than a top 10 driver.

TBF take out his rookie season and he had 2 brilliant years and 1 average one. Pretty good.

Same team same circumstances, in 2010 with Petrov as a teammate just how good was the car, two years later with Kimi now in the team, how good was the car in 2012 and 2013, Grosjean has never come close to reaching those highs, Kimi went on to be dominated by Alonso and Vettel.

I think that's a ridiculous argument. I mean, I could use the same logic to point out that Alonso drove the Renault in 2009 and Kubica did way better with the Renault in 2010.

What more could Kubica have done in 2010 that would have convinced you?

Was Mercedes that much better than Renault in 2010?

And if not, why should Rosberg's season be rated any lower than Kubica's season?

KingVoid wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote: Heidfeld managed to score 80% of Kubica's points, Heidfield beat Kubica more convincingly the year before and edged him the year after. 2007 was Kubica's first full season in F1 but he was racing in F1 the year before and took part in all of the FP1 sessions, he ended up with a 2-2 record against teammates losing 2-1 to Heidfeld and then beating a rookie.

I think Kubica is often remembered for his outstanding performances but the less than stellar performances are quickly forgotten, over 3 years he was nip and tuck with Heidfeld but seen as a driver with a higher ceiling but let's not forget that Heidfeld's standing in the sport would have been little more than a top 10 driver.

TBF take out his rookie season and he had 2 brilliant years and 1 average one. Pretty good.

Same team same circumstances, in 2010 with Petrov as a teammate just how good was the car, two years later with Kimi now in the team, how good was the car in 2012 and 2013, Grosjean has never come close to reaching those highs, Kimi went on to be dominated by Alonso and Vettel.

I think that's a ridiculous argument. I mean, I could use the same logic to point out that Alonso drove the Renault in 2009 and Kubica did way better with the Renault in 2010.

What more could Kubica have done in 2010 that would have convinced you?

Was Mercedes that much better than Renault in 2010?

And if not, why should Rosberg's season be rated any lower than Kubica's season?

Not much better and correspondingly I rate Rosberg's season slightly lower. I borderline gave Alonso the third spot in 2010 but I could have easily gone for Rosberg instead. Putting Kubica ahead of Hamilton was also another very tight choice for me. Definitely small margins between those 4.

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote: 2008 he was unquestionably one of the best 3 drivers. Had a known quantity as a team mate that he blew away and competed for the WDC in the 3rd best car.

Heidfeld managed to score 80% of Kubica's points, Heidfield beat Kubica more convincingly the year before and edged him the year after. 2007 was Kubica's first full season in F1 but he was racing in F1 the year before and took part in all of the FP1 sessions, he ended up with a 2-2 record against teammates losing 2-1 to Heidfeld and then beating a rookie.

I think Kubica is often remembered for his outstanding performances but the less than stellar performances are quickly forgotten, over 3 years he was nip and tuck with Heidfeld but seen as a driver with a higher ceiling but let's not forget that Heidfeld's standing in the sport would have been little more than a top 10 driver.

TBF take out his rookie season and he had 2 brilliant years and 1 average one. Pretty good.

Same team same circumstances, in 2010 with Petrov as a teammate just how good was the car, two years later with Kimi now in the team, how good was the car in 2012 and 2013, Grosjean has never come close to reaching those highs, Kimi went on to be dominated by Alonso and Vettel.

I think that's a ridiculous argument. I mean, I could use the same logic to point out that Alonso drove the Renault in 2009 and Kubica did way better with the Renault in 2010.

What more could Kubica have done in 2010 that would have convinced you?

Ultimately it's hard to judge how good the car was, Kubica had an unrated rookie teammate, I don't remember at the time him being considered the driver of the season unlike in 2008.

I do remember him getting an outstanding podium at Monaco, apart from that I'm having to google his results to remember more, the other 2 podiums were SC, crash strewn affairs, a driver finishing 8th in the WDC was driver of the season based purely on that season, I don't think so.

In respect to Alonso I don't recall him being called the driver of the season in 2009 despite his past reputation.

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote: Heidfeld managed to score 80% of Kubica's points, Heidfield beat Kubica more convincingly the year before and edged him the year after. 2007 was Kubica's first full season in F1 but he was racing in F1 the year before and took part in all of the FP1 sessions, he ended up with a 2-2 record against teammates losing 2-1 to Heidfeld and then beating a rookie.

I think Kubica is often remembered for his outstanding performances but the less than stellar performances are quickly forgotten, over 3 years he was nip and tuck with Heidfeld but seen as a driver with a higher ceiling but let's not forget that Heidfeld's standing in the sport would have been little more than a top 10 driver.

TBF take out his rookie season and he had 2 brilliant years and 1 average one. Pretty good.

Same team same circumstances, in 2010 with Petrov as a teammate just how good was the car, two years later with Kimi now in the team, how good was the car in 2012 and 2013, Grosjean has never come close to reaching those highs, Kimi went on to be dominated by Alonso and Vettel.

I think that's a ridiculous argument. I mean, I could use the same logic to point out that Alonso drove the Renault in 2009 and Kubica did way better with the Renault in 2010.

What more could Kubica have done in 2010 that would have convinced you?

Ultimately it's hard to judge how good the car was, Kubica had an unrated rookie teammate, I don't remember at the time him being considered the driver of the season unlike in 2008.

I do remember him getting an outstanding podium at Monaco, apart from that I'm having to google his results to remember more, the other 2 podiums were SC, crash strewn affairs, a driver finishing 8th in the WDC was driver of the season based purely on that season, I don't think so.

In respect to Alonso I don't recall him being called the driver of the season in 2009 despite his past reputation.

I think it's another totally ridiculous argument to suggest that someone who finishes 8th in the WDC can't be driver of the year. Especially a season like 2010 when all the usual suspects made mistakes.

Pick who you want but don't go round telling other people they can't pick a driver because of XYZ nonsensical reasons. Their is no set criteria.

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote: TBF take out his rookie season and he had 2 brilliant years and 1 average one. Pretty good.

Same team same circumstances, in 2010 with Petrov as a teammate just how good was the car, two years later with Kimi now in the team, how good was the car in 2012 and 2013, Grosjean has never come close to reaching those highs, Kimi went on to be dominated by Alonso and Vettel.

I think that's a ridiculous argument. I mean, I could use the same logic to point out that Alonso drove the Renault in 2009 and Kubica did way better with the Renault in 2010.

What more could Kubica have done in 2010 that would have convinced you?

Ultimately it's hard to judge how good the car was, Kubica had an unrated rookie teammate, I don't remember at the time him being considered the driver of the season unlike in 2008.

I do remember him getting an outstanding podium at Monaco, apart from that I'm having to google his results to remember more, the other 2 podiums were SC, crash strewn affairs, a driver finishing 8th in the WDC was driver of the season based purely on that season, I don't think so.

In respect to Alonso I don't recall him being called the driver of the season in 2009 despite his past reputation.

I think it's another totally ridiculous argument to suggest that someone who finishes 8th in the WDC can't be driver of the year. Especially a season like 2010 when all the usual suspects made mistakes.

Pick who you want but don't go round telling other people they can't pick a driver because of XYZ nonsensical reasons. Their is no set criteria.

I didn't start the Kubica debate, I didn't realise it was a closed shop?

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote: Same team same circumstances, in 2010 with Petrov as a teammate just how good was the car, two years later with Kimi now in the team, how good was the car in 2012 and 2013, Grosjean has never come close to reaching those highs, Kimi went on to be dominated by Alonso and Vettel.

I think that's a ridiculous argument. I mean, I could use the same logic to point out that Alonso drove the Renault in 2009 and Kubica did way better with the Renault in 2010.

What more could Kubica have done in 2010 that would have convinced you?

Ultimately it's hard to judge how good the car was, Kubica had an unrated rookie teammate, I don't remember at the time him being considered the driver of the season unlike in 2008.

I do remember him getting an outstanding podium at Monaco, apart from that I'm having to google his results to remember more, the other 2 podiums were SC, crash strewn affairs, a driver finishing 8th in the WDC was driver of the season based purely on that season, I don't think so.

In respect to Alonso I don't recall him being called the driver of the season in 2009 despite his past reputation.

I think it's another totally ridiculous argument to suggest that someone who finishes 8th in the WDC can't be driver of the year. Especially a season like 2010 when all the usual suspects made mistakes.

Pick who you want but don't go round telling other people they can't pick a driver because of XYZ nonsensical reasons. Their is no set criteria.

I didn't start the Kubica debate, I didn't realise it was a closed shop?

I literally said in my post you're welcome to your own pick. Just don't tell people they can't pick certain drivers due to some made up criteria that you seem to think disqualifies them.

mikeyg123 wrote:Trying to draw this up made me realise how much the Turbo era all meshes into 1 in my mind. I had to look up individual seasons to jog my memory. Something I wouldn't have to do for anything pre 2014. Anyway -

2010
Kubica
Hamilton
Alonso

2011
Vettel
Alonso
Button

2012
Alonso
Hamilton
Perez

2013
Vettel
Alonso
Hulkenberg

2014
Ricciardo
Alonso
Hulkenberg

2015
Vettel
Perez
Ricciardo

2016
Alonso
Ricciardo
Perez

2017
Hamilton
Verstappen
Ricciardo

2018
Hamilton
Alonso
Verstappen

2019
Hamilton
Verstappen
Bottas

First of all, a great thread Kingvoid. It provides much pondering while I sit on my donkey in self-isolation.

To mikeyg123: I think your selection of Ricciardo for both of the years 2015 and 2016 is in need of review; specifically if we look at Ricciardo vis-a-vis Kvyat in 2015 and Hamilton vis-a-vis Rosberg in 2016. In the latter case, at least as much disproportionate hardship was experienced by the loser, his season had better highs (the Monaco win, somehow salvaging the win on the last lap in Austria [I think everyone else on the grid besides Max wouldn't have bothered to try to catch up], and Brazil) and the lows weren't lower, and the opponent was more formidable.

In 2012 Vettel had a better overall season than Perez. Perez couldn't do anything with his Sauber at any of the races where it had less than front-leading pace. It was either the podium or a bunch of 11th places for the guy, with barely any in-between.

Vettel probably also deserves the 3rd spot in 2017. His Brazil drive was a nice denouement to the season after the reliability woes, etc. of the Asian leg. He was the leader of his team throughout the season while Ricciardo was totally eclipsed in his by the end of it.

breathemyexhaust wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:Trying to draw this up made me realise how much the Turbo era all meshes into 1 in my mind. I had to look up individual seasons to jog my memory. Something I wouldn't have to do for anything pre 2014. Anyway -

2010
Kubica
Hamilton
Alonso

2011
Vettel
Alonso
Button

2012
Alonso
Hamilton
Perez

2013
Vettel
Alonso
Hulkenberg

2014
Ricciardo
Alonso
Hulkenberg

2015
Vettel
Perez
Ricciardo

2016
Alonso
Ricciardo
Perez

2017
Hamilton
Verstappen
Ricciardo

2018
Hamilton
Alonso
Verstappen

2019
Hamilton
Verstappen
Bottas

First of all, a great thread Kingvoid. It provides much pondering while I sit on my donkey in self-isolation.

To mikeyg123: I think your selection of Ricciardo for both of the years 2015 and 2016 is in need of review; specifically if we look at Ricciardo vis-a-vis Kvyat in 2015 and Hamilton vis-a-vis Rosberg in 2016. In the latter case, at least as much disproportionate hardship was experienced by the loser, his season had better highs (the Monaco win, somehow salvaging the win on the last lap in Austria [I think everyone else on the grid besides Max wouldn't have bothered to try to catch up], and Brazil) and the lows weren't lower, and the opponent was more formidable.

In 2012 Vettel had a better overall season than Perez. Perez couldn't do anything with his Sauber at any of the races where it had less than front-leading pace. It was either the podium or a bunch of 11th places for the guy, with barely any in-between.

Vettel probably also deserves the 3rd spot in 2017. His Brazil drive was a nice denouement to the season after the reliability woes, etc. of the Asian leg. He was the leader of his team throughout the season while Ricciardo was totally eclipsed in his by the end of it.

I didn't consider any Mercedes driver for 2014-16 as it's simply impossible to even take a guess at how good they were. Same reason I didn't consider any Williams driver for this season or Manor/Caterham/HRT drivers 2010-2016.

breathemyexhaust wrote: In 2012 Vettel had a better overall season than Perez. Perez couldn't do anything with his Sauber at any of the races where it had less than front-leading pace. It was either the podium or a bunch of 11th places for the guy, with barely any in-between.

I honestly, to this day, maintain that Kobayashi was as least as good if not better that year. There was only 6 points (a single 7th place finish) between them in the points. KK had the pace to finish second on merit in Spa but got Grosjean'd at the first corner. He could potentially have been on for another podium at Valencia, were it not for the collision with Senna.

Banana Man wrote:

breathemyexhaust wrote: In 2012 Vettel had a better overall season than Perez. Perez couldn't do anything with his Sauber at any of the races where it had less than front-leading pace. It was either the podium or a bunch of 11th places for the guy, with barely any in-between.

I honestly, to this day, maintain that Kobayashi was as least as good if not better that year. There was only 6 points (a single 7th place finish) between them in the points. KK had the pace to finish second on merit in Spa but got Grosjean'd at the first corner. He could potentially have been on for another podium at Valencia, were it not for the collision with Senna.

Kobayashi certainly did very well. I was always a big fan. He's someone who was ridiculously unlucky to find himself out of a drive.

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote: I think that's a ridiculous argument. I mean, I could use the same logic to point out that Alonso drove the Renault in 2009 and Kubica did way better with the Renault in 2010.

What more could Kubica have done in 2010 that would have convinced you?

Ultimately it's hard to judge how good the car was, Kubica had an unrated rookie teammate, I don't remember at the time him being considered the driver of the season unlike in 2008.

I do remember him getting an outstanding podium at Monaco, apart from that I'm having to google his results to remember more, the other 2 podiums were SC, crash strewn affairs, a driver finishing 8th in the WDC was driver of the season based purely on that season, I don't think so.

In respect to Alonso I don't recall him being called the driver of the season in 2009 despite his past reputation.

I think it's another totally ridiculous argument to suggest that someone who finishes 8th in the WDC can't be driver of the year. Especially a season like 2010 when all the usual suspects made mistakes.

Pick who you want but don't go round telling other people they can't pick a driver because of XYZ nonsensical reasons. Their is no set criteria.

I didn't start the Kubica debate, I didn't realise it was a closed shop?

I literally said in my post you're welcome to your own pick. Just don't tell people they can't pick certain drivers due to some made up criteria that you seem to think disqualifies them.

There was several posts made about Kubica before I entered the fray which doesn't link me directly to your list, if I had actually critiqued your list Kubica wouldn't have been my top priority.

Banana Man wrote:In 2010 I'd go so far as to put Kubica top. He was an absolute machine, whereas Hamilton made mistakes which cost him the Championship in Monza and Singapore.

Rosberg will always been an enigma in that period as we don't really know how much speed MSC had lost. Much like Vettel always looking comfortable against an aging Webber or Kimi, then being upset by a quicker Ric or Charles coming along.

Err, webber was clearly superior to Rosberg at Williams - and Vettel only won the WDC in 2010 due to team orders, getting the engines that had slightly better performance and a touch of luck - Vettel was a superb qualifier and this got him often the lead and ability to draw away while Webber lost out to one or more behind costing him time and position - Webber deserved 2010 - how much was the remaining period due to team orders? We all know the rookie Ricciardo blew Vettel away

F1Oz wrote:

Banana Man wrote:In 2010 I'd go so far as to put Kubica top. He was an absolute machine, whereas Hamilton made mistakes which cost him the Championship in Monza and Singapore.

Rosberg will always been an enigma in that period as we don't really know how much speed MSC had lost. Much like Vettel always looking comfortable against an aging Webber or Kimi, then being upset by a quicker Ric or Charles coming along.

Err, webber was clearly superior to Rosberg at Williams - and Vettel only won the WDC in 2010 due to team orders, getting the engines that had slightly better performance and a touch of luck - Vettel was a superb qualifier and this got him often the lead and ability to draw away while Webber lost out to one or more behind costing him time and position - Webber deserved 2010 - how much was the remaining period due to team orders? We all know the rookie Ricciardo blew Vettel away

That's a bit of a selective memory... Vettel lose wins in Australia, Bahrain and Korea. Vettel was clearly the better driver that year. His bad luck kept Webber in it. Without losing those wins he would have beaten everybody by over 50 points.

F1Oz wrote:

Banana Man wrote:In 2010 I'd go so far as to put Kubica top. He was an absolute machine, whereas Hamilton made mistakes which cost him the Championship in Monza and Singapore.

Rosberg will always been an enigma in that period as we don't really know how much speed MSC had lost. Much like Vettel always looking comfortable against an aging Webber or Kimi, then being upset by a quicker Ric or Charles coming along.

Err, webber was clearly superior to Rosberg at Williams - and Vettel only won the WDC in 2010 due to team orders, getting the engines that had slightly better performance and a touch of luck - Vettel was a superb qualifier and this got him often the lead and ability to draw away while Webber lost out to one or more behind costing him time and position - Webber deserved 2010 - how much was the remaining period due to team orders? We all know the rookie Ricciardo blew Vettel away

First of all Rosberg was a rookie when he teamed up with Webber at Williams, Webber blew the title himself in 2010 when he crashed out in the penultimate race In Korea, crashing out in the wet, plus he had a more reliable car than Vettel over the season to offset all these advantages you seem to be bestowing on Vettel.

Regarding Ricciardo he was hardly a rookie against Vettel in 2014, his F1 debut was in 2011.