planetf1.com

Fiki wrote:Who would have thought that near-empty grandstands would one day be the answer to many a fan's prayers? But I think that with some detailed planning, a lot of selfdiscipline, and even more goodwill, that might indeed be the answer to a race in better conditions than simply behind closed doors?

I've never been to the British Grand Prix, but I understand car parks are now much better than they used to be, which is necessary, as inviting fans to the track by public transport might just be an invitation to begin a new wave of infection.

But I do think strictly controlled, much reduced numbers of fans can be an achievable goal.

The biggest problem is who gets in, who gets priority? Is it going to be the highest bidders?

Siao7 wrote:

Fiki wrote:Who would have thought that near-empty grandstands would one day be the answer to many a fan's prayers? But I think that with some detailed planning, a lot of selfdiscipline, and even more goodwill, that might indeed be the answer to a race in better conditions than simply behind closed doors?

I've never been to the British Grand Prix, but I understand car parks are now much better than they used to be, which is necessary, as inviting fans to the track by public transport might just be an invitation to begin a new wave of infection.

But I do think strictly controlled, much reduced numbers of fans can be an achievable goal.

The biggest problem is who gets in, who gets priority? Is it going to be the highest bidders?

I think the biggest problem is that it is unrealistic to see any sport in front of any number of fans in the next six months.

Fiki wrote:Who would have thought that near-empty grandstands would one day be the answer to many a fan's prayers? But I think that with some detailed planning, a lot of selfdiscipline, and even more goodwill, that might indeed be the answer to a race in better conditions than simply behind closed doors?

I've never been to the British Grand Prix, but I understand car parks are now much better than they used to be, which is necessary, as inviting fans to the track by public transport might just be an invitation to begin a new wave of infection.

But I do think strictly controlled, much reduced numbers of fans can be an achievable goal.

You overestimate the British public!

Siao7 wrote:

Fiki wrote:Who would have thought that near-empty grandstands would one day be the answer to many a fan's prayers? But I think that with some detailed planning, a lot of selfdiscipline, and even more goodwill, that might indeed be the answer to a race in better conditions than simply behind closed doors?

I've never been to the British Grand Prix, but I understand car parks are now much better than they used to be, which is necessary, as inviting fans to the track by public transport might just be an invitation to begin a new wave of infection.

But I do think strictly controlled, much reduced numbers of fans can be an achievable goal.

The biggest problem is who gets in, who gets priority? Is it going to be the highest bidders?

I don't know, I'm not the organiser of the British Grand Prix. But I'm sure a system can be put in place to get pre-formed groups into a random selection system. Lots of people would be sad at not being selected, but most would prefer an actual Grand Prix over a virtual one, with socially distanced groups of fans in the grandstands.

j man wrote:You overestimate the British public!

You may be right. But I know the British public is capable of the very best, just as well as of the very worst. Just ask Captain Tom.

Every soundbite from F1 doesn't match up with what's going on in the world.

The publics opposition to Premier League football returning behind closed doors has amazed me. Cant see Silverstone running during July at all.

Hungary and Belgium currently have bans on major events which would mean F1 would have to pull a rabbit out of the hat to race

Then Singapore has extremely strict lockdown laws and problems within migrant housing. They need to start building the track in August which seems highly unlikely

Season looking doomed to me

Zazu wrote:Every soundbite from F1 doesn't match up with what's going on in the world.

The publics opposition to Premier League football returning behind closed doors has amazed me. Cant see Silverstone running during July at all.

Hungary and Belgium currently have bans on major events which would mean F1 would have to pull a rabbit out of the hat to race

Then Singapore has extremely strict lockdown laws and problems within migrant housing. They need to start building the track in August which seems highly unlikely

Season looking doomed to me

To be honest, even if all the science said that it would be perfectly safe to have football matches take place with zero risk, I suspect the public opinion would be against a restart because it's basically going to be a coronation for Liverpool, it would be if the F1 season had been stopped before the Japanese GP last year, and the choice was between trying to complete the season or not awarding a Champion. Everyone except Lewis Hamilton fans would not want it to be finished, even if it was safe.

There is also a lot of negativity towards football players in the media, with them being the "millionaires with loads of money during a pandemic" soft targets used to deflect the systematic failings of the government leading up to the pandemic and in the initial phase.

I think that sports starting up would be a good thing, but I do think that the organisers would have to set up some kind of online social interaction so people can engage with other fans in a similar way to how they would down the pub / sports bar / venue.

Alienturnedhuman wrote:

Zazu wrote:Every soundbite from F1 doesn't match up with what's going on in the world.

The publics opposition to Premier League football returning behind closed doors has amazed me. Cant see Silverstone running during July at all.

Hungary and Belgium currently have bans on major events which would mean F1 would have to pull a rabbit out of the hat to race

Then Singapore has extremely strict lockdown laws and problems within migrant housing. They need to start building the track in August which seems highly unlikely

Season looking doomed to me

To be honest, even if all the science said that it would be perfectly safe to have football matches take place with zero risk, I suspect the public opinion would be against a restart because it's basically going to be a coronation for Liverpool, it would be if the F1 season had been stopped before the Japanese GP last year, and the choice was between trying to complete the season or not awarding a Champion. Everyone except Lewis Hamilton fans would not want it to be finished, even if it was safe.

There is also a lot of negativity towards football players in the media, with them being the "millionaires with loads of money during a pandemic" soft targets used to deflect the systematic failings of the government leading up to the pandemic and in the initial phase.

I think that sports starting up would be a good thing, but I do think that the organisers would have to set up some kind of online social interaction so people can engage with other fans in a similar way to how they would down the pub / sports bar / venue.

A good post, summed it up better than I could int he first paragraph I am a Manchester United fan and do not want to see Liverpool win the league, but if it is safe enough to do so sport returning isn't a bad thing. I think there's still some thinking needed about how it would work in football in practice, e.g. do players want to return?

Regarding Zazu's initial post - I believe the Hungary ban is on mass gatherings/events, so a behind closed doors event might be ok? The BBC article the other day which talked about how the season might look acknowledged there were challenges relating to Hungary, Italy, Belgium and Singapore.

With Football, even the mayor of Liverpool is against it knowing crowds will just gather outside stadiums/at other locations

Hungary have banned events with more than 500 people

Organisers saying they are going to get it reclassified as a broadcasting event rather than a sport to get passed it....

Whenever I see the calendar discussed they highlight the problems of the upcoming events and they say 'then do the flyaways' or similar. As if countries outside Europe are just going to open up with open arms to the F1 circus

Media reports in the UK about the introduction of a 14 day quarantine period for people travelling to the UK, which could throw a spanner in the works of the plan to start in July.

I think it is possible F1 could have some sort of exemption from that as it would count as ‘work’ travel. Same with football.

JN23 wrote:Media reports in the UK about the introduction of a 14 day quarantine period for people travelling to the UK, which could throw a spanner in the works of the plan to start in July.

I think it is possible F1 could have some sort of exemption from that as it would count as ‘work’ travel. Same with football.

Yeah It's not like they're going to be mixing with the general public and there will be testing.

JN23 wrote:Media reports in the UK about the introduction of a 14 day quarantine period for people travelling to the UK, which could throw a spanner in the works of the plan to start in July.

I think it is possible F1 could have some sort of exemption from that as it would count as ‘work’ travel. Same with football.

I wouldn't worry too much about the UK quarantine as they are bound to f##k that up too. We seem to be taking the phrase 'slow to respond' to new levels.

Biffa wrote:

JN23 wrote:Media reports in the UK about the introduction of a 14 day quarantine period for people travelling to the UK, which could throw a spanner in the works of the plan to start in July.

I think it is possible F1 could have some sort of exemption from that as it would count as ‘work’ travel. Same with football.

I wouldn't worry too much about the UK quarantine as they are bound to f##k that up too. We seem to be taking the phrase 'slow to respond' to new levels.

Yepp, they didn't bother introduce a quarantine when Italy exploded with cases. I don't see why they would bother with that now, when they are being hardest hit by the virus in Europe at the moment.

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:

Biffa wrote:

JN23 wrote:Media reports in the UK about the introduction of a 14 day quarantine period for people travelling to the UK, which could throw a spanner in the works of the plan to start in July.

I think it is possible F1 could have some sort of exemption from that as it would count as ‘work’ travel. Same with football.

I wouldn't worry too much about the UK quarantine as they are bound to f##k that up too. We seem to be taking the phrase 'slow to respond' to new levels.

Yepp, they didn't bother introduce a quarantine when Italy exploded with cases. I don't see why they would bother with that now, when they are being hardest hit by the virus in Europe at the moment.

It's quite baffling the mass mistakes that have been made and some are still being made now, things that needed doing weeks ago simply were not done, how could it be so obvious for a lightweight intellect like mine but not for these people?

Even many of the British people don't take it that seriously, people should be wearing masks but 90% don't feel the need, I was shopping yesterday with a mask on and this young guy stared at me like I was some kind of freak.

Biffa wrote:

JN23 wrote:Media reports in the UK about the introduction of a 14 day quarantine period for people travelling to the UK, which could throw a spanner in the works of the plan to start in July.

I think it is possible F1 could have some sort of exemption from that as it would count as ‘work’ travel. Same with football.

I wouldn't worry too much about the UK quarantine as they are bound to f##k that up too. We seem to be taking the phrase 'slow to respond' to new levels.

European countries have only introduced an incoming quarantine since the beginning of May, France are in fact waiving theirs for the UK.

pokerman wrote:

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:

Biffa wrote:

JN23 wrote:Media reports in the UK about the introduction of a 14 day quarantine period for people travelling to the UK, which could throw a spanner in the works of the plan to start in July.

I think it is possible F1 could have some sort of exemption from that as it would count as ‘work’ travel. Same with football.

I wouldn't worry too much about the UK quarantine as they are bound to f##k that up too. We seem to be taking the phrase 'slow to respond' to new levels.

Yepp, they didn't bother introduce a quarantine when Italy exploded with cases. I don't see why they would bother with that now, when they are being hardest hit by the virus in Europe at the moment.

It's quite baffling the mass mistakes that have been made and some are still being made now, things that needed doing weeks ago simply were not done, how could it be so obvious for a lightweight intellect like mine but not for these people?

Even many of the British people don't take it that seriously, people should be wearing masks but 90% don't feel the need, I was shopping yesterday with a mask on and this young guy stared at me like I was some kind of freak.

Wearing a mask isn't really necessary, the scientific guidance I have seen on the matter is that they aren't particularly effective unless you have a medical grade one, and those are best left for hospitals so they don't have a shortage.

Distancing is important though, and like you say most people just haven't bothered with it. A number of my neighbours are hosting barbecues, having friends round for drinks or letting their children play with their friends in the park. And while things certainly quietened down in the first couple of weeks after the "stay at home" instruction, for the past couple of weeks things have been ostensibly back to normal in terms of the number of cars driving past my house and general number of people out and about.

Some people are blaming the government for the UK's high death rate, and while there have certainly been mistakes made, I would be much more inclined to point fingers at the general public who for the most part just haven't taken this seriously. I think back to all the people piling onto the Tube in London or all going for a walk in Snowdon on the very same weekend everyone was told to stay at home.

j man wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:

Biffa wrote:

JN23 wrote:Media reports in the UK about the introduction of a 14 day quarantine period for people travelling to the UK, which could throw a spanner in the works of the plan to start in July.

I think it is possible F1 could have some sort of exemption from that as it would count as ‘work’ travel. Same with football.

I wouldn't worry too much about the UK quarantine as they are bound to f##k that up too. We seem to be taking the phrase 'slow to respond' to new levels.

Yepp, they didn't bother introduce a quarantine when Italy exploded with cases. I don't see why they would bother with that now, when they are being hardest hit by the virus in Europe at the moment.

It's quite baffling the mass mistakes that have been made and some are still being made now, things that needed doing weeks ago simply were not done, how could it be so obvious for a lightweight intellect like mine but not for these people?

Even many of the British people don't take it that seriously, people should be wearing masks but 90% don't feel the need, I was shopping yesterday with a mask on and this young guy stared at me like I was some kind of freak.

Wearing a mask isn't really necessary, the scientific guidance I have seen on the matter is that they aren't particularly effective unless you have a medical grade one, and those are best left for hospitals so they don't have a shortage.

Distancing is important though, and like you say most people just haven't bothered with it. A number of my neighbours are hosting barbecues, having friends round for drinks or letting their children play with their friends in the park. And while things certainly quietened down in the first couple of weeks after the "stay at home" instruction, for the past couple of weeks things have been ostensibly back to normal in terms of the number of cars driving past my house and general number of people out and about.

Some people are blaming the government for the UK's high death rate, and while there have certainly been mistakes made, I would be much more inclined to point fingers at the general public who for the most part just haven't taken this seriously. I think back to all the people piling onto the Tube in London or all going for a walk in Snowdon on the very same weekend everyone was told to stay at home.

There is a very high correlation between countries who have enforced mask wearing with countries with a low impact from the coronavirus. I did my own study back around February into whether masks were effective, and statistically, I recall it reducing your exposure by 80%.

That's crazy about your neighbours hosting barbecues. It's insightful getting anecdotal evidence on this, and explains why a two month lockdown hasn't been enough to eradicate the disease.

I would still hold the government responsible for the death rate however. Those in power must understand and predict the behaviours of the general public, and it is up to them to enforce strict lockdown measures. Behavioural economics is a significant subject for anyone who wants to go into economic policy for this reason. The UK government has been incredibly lenient compared to France for example.

Option or Prime wrote:

Biffa wrote:

JN23 wrote:Media reports in the UK about the introduction of a 14 day quarantine period for people travelling to the UK, which could throw a spanner in the works of the plan to start in July.

I think it is possible F1 could have some sort of exemption from that as it would count as ‘work’ travel. Same with football.

I wouldn't worry too much about the UK quarantine as they are bound to f##k that up too. We seem to be taking the phrase 'slow to respond' to new levels.

European countries have only introduced an incoming quarantine since the beginning of May, France are in fact waiving theirs for the UK.

I've read tonight that the UK will be waiving it for France too.

j man wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:

Biffa wrote:

JN23 wrote:Media reports in the UK about the introduction of a 14 day quarantine period for people travelling to the UK, which could throw a spanner in the works of the plan to start in July.

I think it is possible F1 could have some sort of exemption from that as it would count as ‘work’ travel. Same with football.

I wouldn't worry too much about the UK quarantine as they are bound to f##k that up too. We seem to be taking the phrase 'slow to respond' to new levels.

Yepp, they didn't bother introduce a quarantine when Italy exploded with cases. I don't see why they would bother with that now, when they are being hardest hit by the virus in Europe at the moment.

It's quite baffling the mass mistakes that have been made and some are still being made now, things that needed doing weeks ago simply were not done, how could it be so obvious for a lightweight intellect like mine but not for these people?

Even many of the British people don't take it that seriously, people should be wearing masks but 90% don't feel the need, I was shopping yesterday with a mask on and this young guy stared at me like I was some kind of freak.

Wearing a mask isn't really necessary, the scientific guidance I have seen on the matter is that they aren't particularly effective unless you have a medical grade one, and those are best left for hospitals so they don't have a shortage.
.

Honestly this whole line is really really stay to irk me watching the chaos that is unfolding back home in Britain from afar.

To be clear, before continuing with this rant - I'm not saying you hold the opinion you've referenced because I've seen it repeated ad nauseam in the UK press (and not just the gutter press) because like all lies, it is built on a thread of truth.

That thread of truth is that is a) won't protect the wearer unless it's a medical grade mask and b) medical grade masks are in short supply therefore if you did wear one you are depriving someone who urgently needs having protection from getting it.

Point b then reinforces this notion that wearing a mask is not just unnecessary but it's also unethical therefore it's morally better to be maskless.

All of this is true - in relation to the medical masks - but it misses one important detail, there is a huge benefit in wearing a non medical mask, even just a home made cloth one.
The reason is that while non medical mask doesn't protect the wearer from an airborne virus, what it does is severely restrict their own water vapour from spreading far - like a silencer on a gun. If everyone was wearing a non medical mask, it would have a much bigger effect than standing 2 metres apart without a mask. The best option would be 2 metres apart and wearing a mask,but with COVID19 having such a high asymptomatic infection rate, and the 2 metre distancing being impractical in many scenarios (and in some cases not effective at all, for example if you are walking behind someone, 2 metres basically puts you in the firing line of their expelled breath)

I don't understand why, but the UK seems to have the highest determination not to wear masks at any costs (even the USA has a much wider adoption, despite some states having armed groups pulling guns on shop staff who wouldn't let them inside without one after a law made it mandatory) - however despite some sketchy scientific claims at the start that they might not be effective or even make it worse, the evidence between mask wearing and non mask wearing is clear. On pretty much every metric the UK is the worst performing country in the world, and given number of extra deaths this year versus 2019 is substantially higher than those attributed to COVID19. This is almost certainly due to the criminal lack of testing at the start and we'll likely never know the true figure.

It also doesn't help that whenever any news from the UK passes my radar it is full of idiots seemingly either looking for loopholes in the social distancing laws or treating them as something to get around. There were at least two "VE Day Conga line" videos circulating, one with a rope with 2 metre intervals marked on it so people were "socially distant". Ignoring the fact that having a congaline isn't permitted within the laws (not even as exercise as that is limited to two people, not a streetful of people from different households) the 2 metre intervals isn't helping, they've basically just designed the most effective round of "pass the Corona" should one of them being contagious with it.

On the flip side, countries that have been doing some recipe of: having populations that follow their guidelines, wear masks,and doing testing / tracing - have all managed the fallout much better.

Remember at the start of this? When South Korea was the hotspot everyone wanted to avoid going to? Look at it now, look at what it did and how quickly it got it under control. This was all long before the UK even started to consider it might come to its shores. There is no excuse for the situation in Britain, and there is no excuse for not wearing a non medical mask.

So long as you wear a clean one every time you go out (or at least every day) then you are not going to do yourself any harm. If you have a couple of home made cloth ones, you can sterilise them in boiling water and alternate day to day.

There is no excuse, but then again, when I raised the issue of masks with people back in the UK at the start all I got was "we're British, we don't do masks". I literally don't know what to say to that sort of attitude.

Alienturnedhuman wrote:

j man wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:

Biffa wrote:
I wouldn't worry too much about the UK quarantine as they are bound to f##k that up too. We seem to be taking the phrase 'slow to respond' to new levels.

Yepp, they didn't bother introduce a quarantine when Italy exploded with cases. I don't see why they would bother with that now, when they are being hardest hit by the virus in Europe at the moment.

It's quite baffling the mass mistakes that have been made and some are still being made now, things that needed doing weeks ago simply were not done, how could it be so obvious for a lightweight intellect like mine but not for these people?

Even many of the British people don't take it that seriously, people should be wearing masks but 90% don't feel the need, I was shopping yesterday with a mask on and this young guy stared at me like I was some kind of freak.

Wearing a mask isn't really necessary, the scientific guidance I have seen on the matter is that they aren't particularly effective unless you have a medical grade one, and those are best left for hospitals so they don't have a shortage.
.

Honestly this whole line is really really stay to irk me watching the chaos that is unfolding back home in Britain from afar.

To be clear, before continuing with this rant - I'm not saying you hold the opinion you've referenced because I've seen it repeated ad nauseam in the UK press (and not just the gutter press) because like all lies, it is built on a thread of truth.

That thread of truth is that is a) won't protect the wearer unless it's a medical grade mask and b) medical grade masks are in short supply therefore if you did wear one you are depriving someone who urgently needs having protection from getting it.

Point b then reinforces this notion that wearing a mask is not just unnecessary but it's also unethical therefore it's morally better to be maskless.

All of this is true - in relation to the medical masks - but it misses one important detail, there is a huge benefit in wearing a non medical mask, even just a home made cloth one.
The reason is that while non medical mask doesn't protect the wearer from an airborne virus, what it does is severely restrict their own water vapour from spreading far - like a silencer on a gun. If everyone was wearing a non medical mask, it would have a much bigger effect than standing 2 metres apart without a mask. The best option would be 2 metres apart and wearing a mask,but with COVID19 having such a high asymptomatic infection rate, and the 2 metre distancing being impractical in many scenarios (and in some cases not effective at all, for example if you are walking behind someone, 2 metres basically puts you in the firing line of their expelled breath)

I don't understand why, but the UK seems to have the highest determination not to wear masks at any costs (even the USA has a much wider adoption, despite some states having armed groups pulling guns on shop staff who wouldn't let them inside without one after a law made it mandatory) - however despite some sketchy scientific claims at the start that they might not be effective or even make it worse, the evidence between mask wearing and non mask wearing is clear. On pretty much every metric the UK is the worst performing country in the world, and given number of extra deaths this year versus 2019 is substantially higher than those attributed to COVID19. This is almost certainly due to the criminal lack of testing at the start and we'll likely never know the true figure.

It also doesn't help that whenever any news from the UK passes my radar it is full of idiots seemingly either looking for loopholes in the social distancing laws or treating them as something to get around. There were at least two "VE Day Conga line" videos circulating, one with a rope with 2 metre intervals marked on it so people were "socially distant". Ignoring the fact that having a congaline isn't permitted within the laws (not even as exercise as that is limited to two people, not a streetful of people from different households) the 2 metre intervals isn't helping, they've basically just designed the most effective round of "pass the Corona" should one of them being contagious with it.

On the flip side, countries that have been doing some recipe of: having populations that follow their guidelines, wear masks,and doing testing / tracing - have all managed the fallout much better.

Remember at the start of this? When South Korea was the hotspot everyone wanted to avoid going to? Look at it now, look at what it did and how quickly it got it under control. This was all long before the UK even started to consider it might come to its shores. There is no excuse for the situation in Britain, and there is no excuse for not wearing a non medical mask.

So long as you wear a clean one every time you go out (or at least every day) then you are not going to do yourself any harm. If you have a couple of home made cloth ones, you can sterilise them in boiling water and alternate day to day.

There is no excuse, but then again, when I raised the issue of masks with people back in the UK at the start all I got was "we're British, we don't do masks". I literally don't know what to say to that sort of attitude.

Good thing I'm quarantined from others because I'd find it very hard to hold a conversation with someone on this topic and not just get impatiently angry with them.

I wear a mask at work and you get used to wearing them very quickly


However, I wouldn't wanted to see them become the norm in public places. Crime will go through the roof. Shoplifting, mobile phone robberies, bag snatching and worse

Zazu wrote:I wear a mask at work and you get used to wearing them very quickly


However, I wouldn't wanted to see them become the norm in public places. Crime will go through the roof. Shoplifting, mobile phone robberies, bag snatching and worse

In Japan mask wearing has been extremely commonplace every flu season for over 100 years and it has one of the lowest crime rates in the world.

Mask wearing would give a would be criminal an additional option for camouflage, but it wouldn't cause people to turn to crime. The main driver for that is usually poverty, funding a drug addition or both.

Alienturnedhuman wrote:

Zazu wrote:I wear a mask at work and you get used to wearing them very quickly


However, I wouldn't wanted to see them become the norm in public places. Crime will go through the roof. Shoplifting, mobile phone robberies, bag snatching and worse

In Japan mask wearing has been extremely commonplace every flu season for over 100 years and it has one of the lowest crime rates in the world.

Mask wearing would give a would be criminal an additional option for camouflage, but it wouldn't cause people to turn to crime. The main driver for that is usually poverty, funding a drug addition or both.

Masks aren't going to spontaneously cause crime.

There is understandably a lot of confusion in the UK about wearing masks when the government repeatedly say things like; ‘based on the science/data masks are not effective for the general public’, which of course is absolute *Definitely True*.

The UK government’s data/science seems to be so murky and questionable that we should all take it with a large pinch of salt and act accordingly.

Biffa wrote:There is understandably a lot of confusion in the UK about wearing masks when the government repeatedly say things like; ‘based on the science/data masks are not effective for the general public’, which of course is absolute *Definitely True*.

The UK government’s data/science seems to be so murky and questionable that we should all take it with a large pinch of salt and act accordingly.

Well that wrong for a start, "Speaking to MPs on 5 May, the UK government's chief scientific adviser, Sir Patrick Vallance, said wearing face masks had a "marginal but positive" impact on the spread of infection and there may be times when it could be "beneficial" for people to do so."

The problem is that there aren't any!

Option or Prime wrote:

Biffa wrote:There is understandably a lot of confusion in the UK about wearing masks when the government repeatedly say things like; ‘based on the science/data masks are not effective for the general public’, which of course is absolute *Definitely True*.

The UK government’s data/science seems to be so murky and questionable that we should all take it with a large pinch of salt and act accordingly.

Well that wrong for a start, "Speaking to MPs on 5 May, the UK government's chief scientific adviser, Sir Patrick Vallance, said wearing face masks had a "marginal but positive" impact on the spread of infection and there may be times when it could be "beneficial" for people to do so."

The problem is that there aren't any!

What part is wrong? Prof Jonathan Van-Tam, England’s deputy chief medical officer said at a Downing Street press conference in April:

“There is no evidence that general wearing of face masks by the public who are well affects the spread of the disease in our society. What matters is social distancing - In terms of the hard evidence and what the UK Government recommends, we do not recommend face masks for general wearing by the public."

And that was the line the government took (and repeated over and over) until very recently, and that is exactly why I say there is understandable confusion for many.

Option or Prime wrote:

Biffa wrote:There is understandably a lot of confusion in the UK about wearing masks when the government repeatedly say things like; ‘based on the science/data masks are not effective for the general public’, which of course is absolute *Definitely True*.

The UK government’s data/science seems to be so murky and questionable that we should all take it with a large pinch of salt and act accordingly.

Well that wrong for a start, "Speaking to MPs on 5 May, the UK government's chief scientific adviser, Sir Patrick Vallance, said wearing face masks had a "marginal but positive" impact on the spread of infection and there may be times when it could be "beneficial" for people to do so."

The problem is that there aren't any!

There is a shortage of N95 medical masks, which is a global issue - Japan has been sold out in the shops since the start of February, for example. There is not a shortage of reusable, washable cloth masks, which can be made at home, or even a scarf wrapped over the face would be better than nothing.

The issue is that messages coming out from government has been one of mask skepticism. I think mainly because there is a shortage of medical masks and they are worried the public will hoard those if they advise it and they are worried that the British public can't be trusted.

I mean, that's basically been the UK Government's way of dealing with the situation from the start - they don't think the public can be trusted with the information so they drip feed it, totally oblivious that in the age of the Internet people can learn what is happening in other countries. Granted, most people will only read the national media so it's controlled to a point, but anyone who reads what is going on elsewhere in the world from non British / Murdoch news sources knows that the UK and USA are the COVID19 problem children of the world.

Alienturnedhuman wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

Biffa wrote:There is understandably a lot of confusion in the UK about wearing masks when the government repeatedly say things like; ‘based on the science/data masks are not effective for the general public’, which of course is absolute *Definitely True*.

The UK government’s data/science seems to be so murky and questionable that we should all take it with a large pinch of salt and act accordingly.

Well that wrong for a start, "Speaking to MPs on 5 May, the UK government's chief scientific adviser, Sir Patrick Vallance, said wearing face masks had a "marginal but positive" impact on the spread of infection and there may be times when it could be "beneficial" for people to do so."

The problem is that there aren't any!

I mean, that's basically been the UK Government's way of dealing with the situation from the start - they don't think the public can be trusted with the information so they drip feed it, totally oblivious that in the age of the Internet people can learn what is happening in other countries. Granted, most people will only read the national media so it's controlled to a point, but anyone who reads what is going on elsewhere in the world from non British / Murdoch news sources knows that the UK and USA are the COVID19 problem children of the world.

If you think wearing a mask is the solution when you are out try asking yourself a different question.

Why are you out in the first place?

Physical distance is the only answer. Masks give you a false sense of safety, they might protect others but don't protect you.

P.S. Every country will have a different solution, if you think South Korea's solution will work in the UK then you need to find out more about the world. The UK simply wouldn't accept the track nd trace app.

Biffa wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

Biffa wrote:There is understandably a lot of confusion in the UK about wearing masks when the government repeatedly say things like; ‘based on the science/data masks are not effective for the general public’, which of course is absolute *Definitely True*.

The UK government’s data/science seems to be so murky and questionable that we should all take it with a large pinch of salt and act accordingly.

Well that wrong for a start, "Speaking to MPs on 5 May, the UK government's chief scientific adviser, Sir Patrick Vallance, said wearing face masks had a "marginal but positive" impact on the spread of infection and there may be times when it could be "beneficial" for people to do so."

The problem is that there aren't any!

What part is wrong? Prof Jonathan Van-Tam, England’s deputy chief medical officer said at a Downing Street press conference in April:

“There is no evidence that general wearing of face masks by the public who are well affects the spread of the disease in our society. What matters is social distancing - In terms of the hard evidence and what the UK Government recommends, we do not recommend face masks for general wearing by the public."

And that was the line the government took (and repeated over and over) until very recently, and that is exactly why I say there is understandable confusion for many.

How do you know you are well? Plenty of asymptomatic cases about, you could have this thing and not know it.

And anyway, now the government advice has changed:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52620556

Option or Prime wrote:

Alienturnedhuman wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

Biffa wrote:There is understandably a lot of confusion in the UK about wearing masks when the government repeatedly say things like; ‘based on the science/data masks are not effective for the general public’, which of course is absolute *Definitely True*.

The UK government’s data/science seems to be so murky and questionable that we should all take it with a large pinch of salt and act accordingly.

Well that wrong for a start, "Speaking to MPs on 5 May, the UK government's chief scientific adviser, Sir Patrick Vallance, said wearing face masks had a "marginal but positive" impact on the spread of infection and there may be times when it could be "beneficial" for people to do so."

The problem is that there aren't any!

I mean, that's basically been the UK Government's way of dealing with the situation from the start - they don't think the public can be trusted with the information so they drip feed it, totally oblivious that in the age of the Internet people can learn what is happening in other countries. Granted, most people will only read the national media so it's controlled to a point, but anyone who reads what is going on elsewhere in the world from non British / Murdoch news sources knows that the UK and USA are the COVID19 problem children of the world.

If you think wearing a mask is the solution when you are out try asking yourself a different question.

Why are you out in the first place?

Physical distance is the only answer. Masks give you a false sense of safety, they might protect others but don't protect you.

P.S. Every country will have a different solution, if you think South Korea's solution will work in the UK then you need to find out more about the world. The UK simply wouldn't accept the track nd trace app.

What? Where did I say wear a mask and go out unnecessarily? Obviously staying inside is the best option. I never said strap on a mask and forget the staying inside - but some people still have to work, and people still need to buy food from the shops. Yet every photo I have seen of queues for the supermarket has at most one in 50 people with a mask on. All the allegedly-socially-distancing-but-not-actually VE Day celebrations were 100% maskless. When I asked my friends in the UK if the photos were depicting things accurately they said it's actually a lot worse, 1 in 50 would be a generous estimation of mask wearing in the supermarkets. Not even the cashiers are wearing them. Yes they've put up the plastic screens but guess what, they've put those up here in Japan too and also mandating the staff wear masks. And do you know why? Because in a pandemic situation cashiers are super spreaders, the vectors that spread airborne viruses the most because they are the people they have the highest number of exchanges, nodes that connect to sometimes hundreds or even thousands of people in a shift.

And this isn't some new knowledge, or knowledge exclusively known to the Asian countries with experience of handling pandemics in high population density environments - the BBC even did a documentary modelling a Coronavirus outbreak in the UK two years ago in 2018 where they demonstrated how shop staff were the main spreaders.

You can watch it here, it's well worth watching especially considering how the Covid19 outbreak has followed what they predicted:

https://youtu.be/RmGiDUczhqQ

Today people in the UK were cramming back on public transport after the government relaxed the stay at home advice - although barely. And the photos, hardly anyone wearing masks.

You are right that they're would be push back against certain elements of how South Korea has implemented it's track and trace, but smart phone apps are not the only track and trace methods, track and trace has been a thing long before smart phones, and besides the government is implementing a track and trace app. Probably built on the anonymous system Apple and Google have designed. As for people not accepting it outright, on some principle, that will ultimately be the UK fall under the shadow of Darwinism, rejecting some live saving app that enables them to return to normality much, much faster when at the same hand they are almost certainly clicking "I agree" on every Google analytics and Facebook pixel consent form on every website they visit just to look at the latest repost of a barely funny TikTok video.

But this is ultimately missing the point. Let's say that track and trace (a concept that the UK science was one of the leaders in creating) is something that is completely incompatible with British people and they'll never accept it. Fine. But that doesn't excuse not implementing the other things such as wearing masks and mass testing.

It's no good falling back on the excuse "what works for South Korea won't work for Britain" when all the countries who have managed to get things under control are from all corners of the world and a great deal of them are European countries. It's no good Britain saying what others are doing won't work here and then doing nothing. At least try it and not have it work.

So, the British PM has told us, no less than 12 times in a fairly short press conference, to use common sense. The perfect way to pass the buck to us because they have no bloody clue. Of course we'll hopefully use common senes, although VE Day celebrations certainly show how many idiots we have in our country, but come on Boris.

As someone who works in a primary school, I am expected to go back soon and mix with lots of children in classrooms, but I can't sit 10m away from my parents in their back garden. That said, whilst I can't sit with them in their back garden, they can come one at a time to a public park and sit just 2m from me.

I guess people voted for a clown to govern our country so we're rightly getting joke politics. Well done us.

Oh, and we were initially told to keep children 2m away form each other in class which means about 9 children out of 30 will fit in my classroom, but another document from the government today simply tells us to sit them as far from each other as possible. I'm guessing putting one at a table in the toilets and another at the far end of the school field isn't what the mean. But who knows what they mean! I'm hoping parents see sense and refuse to send their children in.

I wouldn't mind if we were getting on top of the virus, but we're no better than a month ago.

Asphalt_World wrote:I guess people voted for a clown to govern our country so we're rightly getting joke politics. Well done us.

Believe me, I know that feeling.

j man wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:

Biffa wrote:

JN23 wrote:Media reports in the UK about the introduction of a 14 day quarantine period for people travelling to the UK, which could throw a spanner in the works of the plan to start in July.

I think it is possible F1 could have some sort of exemption from that as it would count as ‘work’ travel. Same with football.

I wouldn't worry too much about the UK quarantine as they are bound to f##k that up too. We seem to be taking the phrase 'slow to respond' to new levels.

Yepp, they didn't bother introduce a quarantine when Italy exploded with cases. I don't see why they would bother with that now, when they are being hardest hit by the virus in Europe at the moment.

It's quite baffling the mass mistakes that have been made and some are still being made now, things that needed doing weeks ago simply were not done, how could it be so obvious for a lightweight intellect like mine but not for these people?

Even many of the British people don't take it that seriously, people should be wearing masks but 90% don't feel the need, I was shopping yesterday with a mask on and this young guy stared at me like I was some kind of freak.

Wearing a mask isn't really necessary, the scientific guidance I have seen on the matter is that they aren't particularly effective unless you have a medical grade one, and those are best left for hospitals so they don't have a shortage.

Distancing is important though, and like you say most people just haven't bothered with it. A number of my neighbours are hosting barbecues, having friends round for drinks or letting their children play with their friends in the park. And while things certainly quietened down in the first couple of weeks after the "stay at home" instruction, for the past couple of weeks things have been ostensibly back to normal in terms of the number of cars driving past my house and general number of people out and about.

Some people are blaming the government for the UK's high death rate, and while there have certainly been mistakes made, I would be much more inclined to point fingers at the general public who for the most part just haven't taken this seriously. I think back to all the people piling onto the Tube in London or all going for a walk in Snowdon on the very same weekend everyone was told to stay at home.

Giving the latest I would say weak government leadership and many in the public who don't seem to care, should I hypothesise younger people who may think Ill be alright Jack?

Regarding the masks they help to stop spreading your own mucus if you happen to cough or sneeze especially in closed areas like a supermarket, many countries in front of the game seem to wear masks, regarding the UK I just got the impression given the lack of PPE they were just trying to make sure that such items all went to the NHS.

Asphalt_World wrote:So, the British PM has told us, no less than 12 times in a fairly short press conference, to use common sense. The perfect way to pass the buck to us because they have no bloody clue. Of course we'll hopefully use common senes, although VE Day celebrations certainly show how many idiots we have in our country, but come on Boris.

As someone who works in a primary school, I am expected to go back soon and mix with lots of children in classrooms, but I can't sit 10m away from my parents in their back garden. That said, whilst I can't sit with them in their back garden, they can come one at a time to a public park and sit just 2m from me.

I guess people voted for a clown to govern our country so we're rightly getting joke politics. Well done us.

Oh, and we were initially told to keep children 2m away form each other in class which means about 9 children out of 30 will fit in my classroom, but another document from the government today simply tells us to sit them as far from each other as possible. I'm guessing putting one at a table in the toilets and another at the far end of the school field isn't what the mean. But who knows what they mean! I'm hoping parents see sense and refuse to send their children in.

I wouldn't mind if we were getting on top of the virus, but we're no better than a month ago.

The leaderships is both clueless and rudderless, as for voting for Boris rather than the Harpist Corbyn no way I'm voting for a commie, Corbyn himself was scared to make any stance on the most important things not wanting to upset any voters, sit on the fence and cruise into power, his only policies seemed to be handing out money to the poorest in order to buy votes.

Asphalt_World wrote: I guess people voted for a clown to govern our country so we're rightly getting joke politics. Well done us.

Its nothing to do with politics, though some will make it political. Its a virus, a pandemic that is new, whatever decision you make will not be in any way perfect. Time to be objective not partisan.

Asphalt_World wrote:
I wouldn't mind if we were getting on top of the virus, but we're no better than a month ago.

Everyone is getting on top of it, for the time being, even Trump and the US. Donald Trump's problem is his vendetta with the press with this will guarantee Biden, (if nominated), will win. After this though its a poisoned chalice.
In the UK like the rest of Europe we will limp out, nothing to choose between France, Spain, Italy, UK even Germany, its not about competence just how many eldery each country has.

Option or Prime wrote:

Asphalt_World wrote: I guess people voted for a clown to govern our country so we're rightly getting joke politics. Well done us.

Its nothing to do with politics, though some will make it political. Its a virus, a pandemic that is new, whatever decision you make will not be in any way perfect. Time to be objective not partisan.

Asphalt_World wrote:
I wouldn't mind if we were getting on top of the virus, but we're no better than a month ago.

Everyone is getting on top of it, for the time being, even Trump and the US. Donald Trump's problem is his vendetta with the press with this will guarantee Biden, (if nominated), will win. After this though its a poisoned chalice.
In the UK like the rest of Europe we will limp out, nothing to choose between France, Spain, Italy, UK even Germany, its not about competence just how many eldery each country has.

If the UK is still looking at 600 deaths a day and we think we've seen the back of it and can relax, then don't be surprised if we get hit with a second wave.

Poker, we really can not trust the numbers, only the trends. I believe there is much under and miss recording.

I agree the threshold is too high but I think the numbers dying in the community are much lower than in care. I strongly agree though that a second wave will come. The question is will these countries have learnt their lessons from the first time.
The second wave needs to be stopped early with a strong clear lockdown, test and trace unless a therapeutic treatment or vaccine is available.

Option or Prime wrote:nothing to choose between France, Spain, Italy, UK even Germany, its not about competence just how many eldery each country has.

Let's see if this argument holds up when we look at the data:

ELDERLY POPULATIONS

Italy: 22.8% population 65+
Germany: 21.4% population 65+
France: 20.3% population 65+
Spain: 19.1% population 65+
United Kingdom: 18.3% population 65+

COVID-19 FATALITIES

Italy: 30,739 deaths (51 / 1000)
Germany: 7,661 deaths (9 / 1000)
France: 26,643 deaths (39 / 1000)
Spain: 26,744 deaths (56 / 1000)
United Kingdom: 32,065 deaths (47 / 1000)

Not only do those numbers not closely match the elderly population, they're not even in the same order. Germany has a higher elderly population than France, Spain or the UK, but a far lower number of fatalities both outright and as a percentage. There clearly is something very substantial to choose between Germany's handling of the crisis and that of any of the other four countries listed.

And if those numbers don't make a clear difference...



These are not countries in the same situation at all.

Option or Prime wrote:

Asphalt_World wrote: I guess people voted for a clown to govern our country so we're rightly getting joke politics. Well done us.

Its nothing to do with politics, though some will make it political. Its a virus, a pandemic that is new, whatever decision you make will not be in any way perfect. Time to be objective not partisan.

Asphalt_World wrote:
I wouldn't mind if we were getting on top of the virus, but we're no better than a month ago.

Everyone is getting on top of it, for the time being, even Trump and the US. Donald Trump's problem is his vendetta with the press with this will guarantee Biden, (if nominated), will win. After this though its a poisoned chalice.
In the UK like the rest of Europe we will limp out, nothing to choose between France, Spain, Italy, UK even Germany, its not about competence just how many eldery each country has.

Never been interested in politics, but this upcoming US election is a must watch for me. Hopefully the pandemic won't affect it too much. Joe Biden is not a strong candidate imo, he has almost zero charisma, doesn't excite anyone and Trump will likely eat him alive in the debates, but I want to see how smart the American voters are. How and how can we let Trump win after what we have seen from him the last four years and especially through this pandemic? The madness must end, but will it?

I have seen a video flying around of the Italian parliament minister that was ranting that the deaths are not the true count and are used as scare tactics. That they are counting others deaths from people that had underlying problems and would die anyway, but the virus kind of sped it up, so attributed it to Covid. The true numbers, he claims, are way below the 30k that Italy has, in fact he quotes that in 96% of the cases, the cause of death was other than the virus itself.

Then he goes to say that 60% died from other diseases, so I am not sure how these numbers match up, but hey. Also doesn't help that he has a proper rant that would make Adolph himself proud. Ok, this was harsh, but he does seem so passionate about this, in a typical fiery Mediterranean temperament.

Ah, I found the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9wuFazgpc4

Any thoughts? How true do you think this is? Conspiracy theories again?

Siao7 wrote:I have seen a video flying around of the Italian parliament minister that was ranting that the deaths are not the true count and are used as scare tactics. That they are counting others deaths from people that had underlying problems and would die anyway, but the virus kind of sped it up, so attributed it to Covid. The true numbers, he claims, are way below the 30k that Italy has, in fact he quotes that in 96% of the cases, the cause of death was other than the virus itself.

Then he goes to say that 60% died from other diseases, so I am not sure how these numbers match up, but hey. Also doesn't help that he has a proper rant that would make Adolph himself proud. Ok, this was harsh, but he does seem so passionate about this, in a typical fiery Mediterranean temperament.

Ah, I found the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9wuFazgpc4

Any thoughts? How true do you think this is? Conspiracy theories again?

I don't know the situation in Italy but in the UK that would be correct. Everyone dying where Covid is found present is getting recorded as covid death. I could get run over by a track and if I had a postmortem where Covid was found it would be recorded.