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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:00 am 
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Prema wrote:
Harpo wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
It's very very very important to remember that the "infected" number is not "how many people are infected in the country" but "how many people have tested positive for the virus"

In most countries it's believed the actual infected number is around 10 to 100 times what the confirmed cases is. Most countries are only testing people who are symptomatic due to a lack of tests. The UK the symptoms have to be sustained, which is why it's death rate is much higher than Germany, who has a very low death rate. Despite having 4 times the number of cases, Germany has a quarter the deaths of the UK. This is because Germany is conducting many many more cases. Germany is probably about 1 week behind the UK, as their numbers for the past few days line with the UK's numbers for a week ago.


Further to this, the death-rate in developed countries is expected to be between 1 and 3%, so the number of cases per country should be between 30 and 100 times the number of deaths. What's reported is often 10 times it..

I think they should publish the number of hospitalised cases and intensive care unit cases - data which must be available. This would give a good measure of the strain health services are under. I heard that the death rate of those in intensive care is 50%, which begs the (somewhat insensitive) question, is some of the icu resource going on hopeless cases?

Even the death rate is unsure... In France (and I suppose it's the same in some other countries), are counted as dead from the coronavirus only the people who were showing absolutely certain symptoms of contamination and were tested positive before their death. So mainly, if not only, people dying in dedicated services in hospitals. We don't test the dead who were not confirmed as infected by the coronavirus before dying (we don't even test all the living ones that should be tested). Which means that a good number of dead people are not (not yet ?) counted among the coronavirus victims... Old people dying in retirement homes, dying alone at home and so on.


The US, that at this point got the largest numbers of covid-19 cases, the death rate would be 1.7%. Which is 17 times higher than the official figure 0.1% seasonal flu. But the actual death rate for covid-19 may be far less than 1,7% since, proportionally speaking, there are perhaps far more people with untested/undocumented covid-19 than unconfirmed deaths. However, such is the case with the seasonal flue too. But this comparative ratio of 17 x may be much higher since all these covid-19 deaths that we have the numbers for, are all clinically tested and affirmatively attributed to covid-19 virus while such is not the case with the deaths attributed to the flu.

According to data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 7,428 deaths from the flu were confirmed by a lab test for that virus in 2019. If you add in the 3,771 test-confirmed deaths already tallied in 2020, the total number of deaths that can be definitively tied to the flu is 11,199.
The much higher number Trump used comes from the possible range of deaths attributable to flu this season — 23,00 to 59,000 — a number that the CDC estimates in part by including people who die from pneumonia even if they weren’t tested for the flu virus.

https://theintercept.com/2020/03/25/cor ... son-trump/



The death rate is probably not 1.7%.

You get 1.7 by taking deaths (2,513) as a proportion of confirmed cases (143,055). That's inaccurate because even if the next update shows no new cases, some of those existing cases will die.

You need to be comparing deaths to all final outcomes (basically die or recover). According to the John Hopkins stats for the US, that is currently 2,513 deaths, and 4,835 recovered. I'm not even going to write that out as a percentage because the 'recovered' figure must be very, very under reported.

I guess I'm trying to say there is currently no way for the general public to know what the real death rate is.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:50 am 
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No racing yet in 2020 and yet it seems like Mercedes are already winning.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... 9-patients

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:38 am 
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Herb wrote:
Prema wrote:
Harpo wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
It's very very very important to remember that the "infected" number is not "how many people are infected in the country" but "how many people have tested positive for the virus"

In most countries it's believed the actual infected number is around 10 to 100 times what the confirmed cases is. Most countries are only testing people who are symptomatic due to a lack of tests. The UK the symptoms have to be sustained, which is why it's death rate is much higher than Germany, who has a very low death rate. Despite having 4 times the number of cases, Germany has a quarter the deaths of the UK. This is because Germany is conducting many many more cases. Germany is probably about 1 week behind the UK, as their numbers for the past few days line with the UK's numbers for a week ago.


Further to this, the death-rate in developed countries is expected to be between 1 and 3%, so the number of cases per country should be between 30 and 100 times the number of deaths. What's reported is often 10 times it..

I think they should publish the number of hospitalised cases and intensive care unit cases - data which must be available. This would give a good measure of the strain health services are under. I heard that the death rate of those in intensive care is 50%, which begs the (somewhat insensitive) question, is some of the icu resource going on hopeless cases?

Even the death rate is unsure... In France (and I suppose it's the same in some other countries), are counted as dead from the coronavirus only the people who were showing absolutely certain symptoms of contamination and were tested positive before their death. So mainly, if not only, people dying in dedicated services in hospitals. We don't test the dead who were not confirmed as infected by the coronavirus before dying (we don't even test all the living ones that should be tested). Which means that a good number of dead people are not (not yet ?) counted among the coronavirus victims... Old people dying in retirement homes, dying alone at home and so on.


The US, that at this point got the largest numbers of covid-19 cases, the death rate would be 1.7%. Which is 17 times higher than the official figure 0.1% seasonal flu. But the actual death rate for covid-19 may be far less than 1,7% since, proportionally speaking, there are perhaps far more people with untested/undocumented covid-19 than unconfirmed deaths. However, such is the case with the seasonal flue too. But this comparative ratio of 17 x may be much higher since all these covid-19 deaths that we have the numbers for, are all clinically tested and affirmatively attributed to covid-19 virus while such is not the case with the deaths attributed to the flu.

According to data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 7,428 deaths from the flu were confirmed by a lab test for that virus in 2019. If you add in the 3,771 test-confirmed deaths already tallied in 2020, the total number of deaths that can be definitively tied to the flu is 11,199.
The much higher number Trump used comes from the possible range of deaths attributable to flu this season — 23,00 to 59,000 — a number that the CDC estimates in part by including people who die from pneumonia even if they weren’t tested for the flu virus.

https://theintercept.com/2020/03/25/cor ... son-trump/



The death rate is probably not 1.7%.

You get 1.7 by taking deaths (2,513) as a proportion of confirmed cases (143,055). That's inaccurate because even if the next update shows no new cases, some of those existing cases will die.

You need to be comparing deaths to all final outcomes (basically die or recover). According to the John Hopkins stats for the US, that is currently 2,513 deaths, and 4,835 recovered. I'm not even going to write that out as a percentage because the 'recovered' figure must be very, very under reported.

I guess I'm trying to say there is currently no way for the general public to know what the real death rate is.


Well, I said that this rate of 1.7% in the US is such at this point of time. Never said that it was even the actual at this point, not to speak of being the final.
You will never have the empirical data as how many people actually have contracted the virus, to start with. We can safely assume that far more people contract it than what the official numbers of clinically confirmed cases show, many people have a mild symptoms and are even asymptomatic and do not approach medics nor get tested. Hence my belief that the actual current death rate in the US is lower than this 1.7%. But so similarly with the flu, far less than the official 0.1%.

It's just something to go with, to have some concept of how more deadly this virus is as compared to the flu. Otherwise, one doesn't have anything to talk, just "we don't know".

For Italy, the death rate, at this point, is over 10%! And Spain almost 9%. And Germany... 0.9%
Go figure.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:03 pm 
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Helmut Marko the boss of the F1 Red Bull motorsport team has suggested that his teams drivers should get infected now while F1 racing is suspended!

He assumes that because they are young and fit they will only get a mild version of the disease! I sincelely hope that these drivers don't follow his suggestion and sue him for all he is worth if they end up with lung damage.

Perhaps he might wan't to join them so they all get it together, (he is 76). Needless to say the idea was rejected by the other team members.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52091905


Last edited by Option or Prime on Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:44 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Helmut Marko the owner of the F1 Red Bull team has suggested that his teams drivers should get infected now while F1 racing is suspended!

He assumes that because they are young and fit they will only get a mild version of the disease! I sincelely hope that these drivers don't follow his suggestion and sue him for all he is worth if they end up with lung damage.

Perhaps he might wan't to join them so they all get it together, (he is 76). Needless to say the idea was rejected by the other team members.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52091905

Reading that Marko is the owner of RB is more shocking than what he is suggesting!

Apart from joking, he this is absurd


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:17 pm 
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I cant stand Helmut Marko, absolute horrible individual. His treatment of drivers is usually bad enough before wanting to infect them with a virus.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:22 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Helmut Marko the owner of the F1 Red Bull team has suggested that his teams drivers should get infected now while F1 racing is suspended!

He assumes that because they are young and fit they will only get a mild version of the disease! I sincelely hope that these drivers don't follow his suggestion and sue him for all he is worth if they end up with lung damage.

Perhaps he might wan't to join them so they all get it together, (he is 76). Needless to say the idea was rejected by the other team members.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52091905

Reading that Marko is the owner of RB is more shocking than what he is suggesting!

Apart from joking, he this is absurd


He owns RB as in "I totally own you, man"...
I don't even understand that any of the team members felt the need to answer. This man never showed one ounce of empathy...

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:26 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Helmut Marko the owner of the F1 Red Bull team has suggested that his teams drivers should get infected now while F1 racing is suspended!

He assumes that because they are young and fit they will only get a mild version of the disease! I sincelely hope that these drivers don't follow his suggestion and sue him for all he is worth if they end up with lung damage.

Perhaps he might wan't to join them so they all get it together, (he is 76). Needless to say the idea was rejected by the other team members.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52091905

Reading that Marko is the owner of RB is more shocking than what he is suggesting!

Apart from joking, he this is absurd


Of course you are right and I've edited the post, I was somewhat incensed at what I had just read. It just seems to highlight the contempt that he has for the members of his team. I just hope that none of the other drivers in F1 make crass comments!

Imagine if a driver on 30 million a years were to sue for loss of career earnings due to lung damage, that would wipe the smile off his face.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:48 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Helmut Marko the owner of the F1 Red Bull team has suggested that his teams drivers should get infected now while F1 racing is suspended!

He assumes that because they are young and fit they will only get a mild version of the disease! I sincelely hope that these drivers don't follow his suggestion and sue him for all he is worth if they end up with lung damage.

Perhaps he might wan't to join them so they all get it together, (he is 76). Needless to say the idea was rejected by the other team members.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52091905

Reading that Marko is the owner of RB is more shocking than what he is suggesting!

Apart from joking, he this is absurd


Of course you are right and I've edited the post, I was somewhat incensed at what I had just read. It just seems to highlight the contempt that he has for the members of his team. I just hope that none of the other drivers in F1 make crass comments!

Imagine if a driver on 30 million a years were to sue for loss of career earnings due to lung damage, that would wipe the smile off his face.


Anyway, if F1 wants to survive 2020, they can't, and won't be able to, go on playing with the obscene amounts of money they used to wallow in...

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:58 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Helmut Marko the owner of the F1 Red Bull team has suggested that his teams drivers should get infected now while F1 racing is suspended!

He assumes that because they are young and fit they will only get a mild version of the disease! I sincelely hope that these drivers don't follow his suggestion and sue him for all he is worth if they end up with lung damage.

Perhaps he might wan't to join them so they all get it together, (he is 76). Needless to say the idea was rejected by the other team members.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52091905

Reading that Marko is the owner of RB is more shocking than what he is suggesting!

Apart from joking, he this is absurd


Of course you are right and I've edited the post, I was somewhat incensed at what I had just read. It just seems to highlight the contempt that he has for the members of his team. I just hope that none of the other drivers in F1 make crass comments!

Imagine if a driver on 30 million a years were to sue for loss of career earnings due to lung damage, that would wipe the smile off his face.


So you edited to "Helmut Marko the boss of the F1 Red Bull motorsport team".
Maybe you could edit it again? ;)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:40 pm 
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https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mark ... p/4774807/

I find this utterly contemptible. It suggests he is both ignorant and completely lacking perspective. I'd be happy to see him gone from the paddock before racing restarts as he clearly lacks care for drivers beyond what they can achieve for him.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:42 pm 
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Ok so Dietrich Mateschitz owns it but the BBC Headline is: "Red Bull motorsport boss Helmut Marko said he advised his drivers to become infected with coronavirus while the season is in hiatus."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52091905


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:04 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Ok so Dietrich Mateschitz owns it but the BBC Headline is: "Red Bull motorsport boss Helmut Marko said he advised his drivers to become infected with coronavirus while the season is in hiatus."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52091905

Well, Christian Horner might have a word or two to say on that one...


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:20 pm 
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imagine getting that call from your employer. lmao i can't print the responses he would get, before i hung up


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:21 pm 
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I see what Marko is getting at. This virus is here to stay, so if getting it is an inevitability at some point then get it over and done with early on while everything is in lockdown and hopefully develop some immunity.

It's still very foolish though, for multiple reasons.
- The reason for the wide variation of symptoms across different people is not understood.
- The long term effects in those who do recover are unknown. I'm hearing reports of permanent scarring of the lungs in some people.
- The degree of long term immunity is unknown.
- The virus spreads easily enough already, so further encouraging its spread is moronic (and endangers millions).


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:02 pm 
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j man wrote:
I see what Marko is getting at. This virus is here to stay, so if getting it is an inevitability at some point then get it over and done with early on while everything is in lockdown and hopefully develop some immunity.

It's still very foolish though, for multiple reasons.
- The reason for the wide variation of symptoms across different people is not understood.
- The long term effects in those who do recover are unknown. I'm hearing reports of permanent scarring of the lungs in some people.
- The degree of long term immunity is unknown.
- The virus spreads easily enough already, so further encouraging its spread is moronic (and endangers millions).


Exactly! I have not seen evidence that one is immune if they have already had it once. There was an article about that earlier today, but I can't remember where I saw it.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:40 pm 
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Blake wrote:
j man wrote:
I see what Marko is getting at. This virus is here to stay, so if getting it is an inevitability at some point then get it over and done with early on while everything is in lockdown and hopefully develop some immunity.

It's still very foolish though, for multiple reasons.
- The reason for the wide variation of symptoms across different people is not understood.
- The long term effects in those who do recover are unknown. I'm hearing reports of permanent scarring of the lungs in some people.
- The degree of long term immunity is unknown.
- The virus spreads easily enough already, so further encouraging its spread is moronic (and endangers millions).


Exactly! I have not seen evidence that one is immune if they have already had it once. There was an article about that earlier today, but I can't remember where I saw it.

I believe it's an assumption based on how other strains of coronavirus behave. The seasonal flu for instance; once you get it and recover you're immune until it turns up again the next year by which time it's mutated enough to be infectious again. However as the body's immune system still recognises that overall strain of virus it does retain some level of immunity to the new version, hence why the seasonal flu remains less harmful to most people than what is going round at the moment. At least that's my understanding.

But yes, the evidence that this virus will behave in the same way long term does not yet exist and I don't think we can safely assume it will mirror the seasonal flu just because they are from the same family of virus. After all, a lion can't be considered domesticable just because it is a form of cat.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:41 am 
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Blake wrote:
j man wrote:
I see what Marko is getting at. This virus is here to stay, so if getting it is an inevitability at some point then get it over and done with early on while everything is in lockdown and hopefully develop some immunity.

It's still very foolish though, for multiple reasons.
- The reason for the wide variation of symptoms across different people is not understood.
- The long term effects in those who do recover are unknown. I'm hearing reports of permanent scarring of the lungs in some people.
- The degree of long term immunity is unknown.
- The virus spreads easily enough already, so further encouraging its spread is moronic (and endangers millions).


Exactly! I have not seen evidence that one is immune if they have already had it once. There was an article about that earlier today, but I can't remember where I saw it.

I heard it being said that if you contract the virus and survive, the antibodies produced in your body to fight it off will still circulate in your body for the next 12 months making you immune for that period of time.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:00 pm 
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https://abcnews.go.com/Business/project ... d=69871860

looks like several f1 teams have taken cpap (sleep aid) machines and modified them to be used as ventilators. going to build thousands of them.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:12 pm 
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Should we really be trading with a country like China?

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coronavi ... d=SK216DHP

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:52 am 
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Mclaren furlough staff but haven't said how many

Quite unbelievable an F1 team whose majority shareholder is the Bahrain government's wealth fund are eligible.

Surely Williams next


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:43 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Should we really be trading with a country like China?

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coronavi ... d=SK216DHP

We love our iPhones too much to stop doing that.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:00 am 
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Zazu wrote:
Mclaren furlough staff but haven't said how many

Quite unbelievable an F1 team whose majority shareholder is the Bahrain government's wealth fund are eligible.

Surely Williams next


Except may be Ferrari, Mercedes, and Red Bull, no racing team (and it's even more obvious in other series) can survive a long stop without a complete reshuffle of the "business" model.
And this concerns other sports (ie football...) whose economic model is a headlong rush giving the illusion it's sound, as long as there is no stopping in the process.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:21 am 
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BBC F1 website now also suggesting 2021 rules, already delayed to 2022, are likely to be pushed back 2023.

With McLaren changing engines in 2021 & DAS confirmed as banned, any regulations limiting development are only going to come under increasing stress


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:30 am 
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I wanted to check with the forum here something that I noticed with the numbers that are reported. China stands out in one thing, with approx. 3.5k deaths and 76k recoveries out of 82k cases (these are confirmed cases, just to be fair; the real numbers of people that got the virus but do not even know it/haven't reported it are not known of course).

The US has had 5k deaths, with 8k recoveries out of 216k cases (~2%)! Pretty much other countries reports are "similar" to this, the recoveries are quite low (less than half let's say) compared to the cases reported; but for some reason China's recovery rate is almost 92%!!!

We can of course think that China is ahead of everyone else in this pandemic, but on the flip side the rest of the world had much more notice and opportunity to get prepared compared to China.

Does anybody else find this strange?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:48 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
I wanted to check with the forum here something that I noticed with the numbers that are reported. China stands out in one thing, with approx. 3.5k deaths and 76k recoveries out of 82k cases (these are confirmed cases, just to be fair; the real numbers of people that got the virus but do not even know it/haven't reported it are not known of course).

The US has had 5k deaths, with 8k recoveries out of 216k cases (~2%)! Pretty much other countries reports are "similar" to this, the recoveries are quite low (less than half let's say) compared to the cases reported; but for some reason China's recovery rate is almost 92%!!!

We can of course think that China is ahead of everyone else in this pandemic, but on the flip side the rest of the world had much more notice and opportunity to get prepared compared to China.

Does anybody else find this strange?

Many other countries have their hands full with containing the peak of the epidemic and maybe they just can't put much resources into testing supposedly cured patients.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:01 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I wanted to check with the forum here something that I noticed with the numbers that are reported. China stands out in one thing, with approx. 3.5k deaths and 76k recoveries out of 82k cases (these are confirmed cases, just to be fair; the real numbers of people that got the virus but do not even know it/haven't reported it are not known of course).

The US has had 5k deaths, with 8k recoveries out of 216k cases (~2%)! Pretty much other countries reports are "similar" to this, the recoveries are quite low (less than half let's say) compared to the cases reported; but for some reason China's recovery rate is almost 92%!!!

We can of course think that China is ahead of everyone else in this pandemic, but on the flip side the rest of the world had much more notice and opportunity to get prepared compared to China.

Does anybody else find this strange?

Many other countries have their hands full with containing the peak of the epidemic and maybe they just can't put much resources into testing supposedly cured patients.


Yeah, that's a fair comment. We won't have the full picture for some time yet I feel, that's why I said these are the numbers we have at the moment. But it just stood out in my eyes and wanted to ask!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:16 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I wanted to check with the forum here something that I noticed with the numbers that are reported. China stands out in one thing, with approx. 3.5k deaths and 76k recoveries out of 82k cases (these are confirmed cases, just to be fair; the real numbers of people that got the virus but do not even know it/haven't reported it are not known of course).

The US has had 5k deaths, with 8k recoveries out of 216k cases (~2%)! Pretty much other countries reports are "similar" to this, the recoveries are quite low (less than half let's say) compared to the cases reported; but for some reason China's recovery rate is almost 92%!!!

We can of course think that China is ahead of everyone else in this pandemic, but on the flip side the rest of the world had much more notice and opportunity to get prepared compared to China.

Does anybody else find this strange?

Many other countries have their hands full with containing the peak of the epidemic and maybe they just can't put much resources into testing supposedly cured patients.


Yeah, that's a fair comment. We won't have the full picture for some time yet I feel, that's why I said these are the numbers we have at the moment. But it just stood out in my eyes and wanted to ask!

I have wondered the same thing myself. The above is just speculation but it's what I've assumed to be the explanation.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:31 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Should we really be trading with a country like China?

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coronavi ... d=SK216DHP

We love our iPhones too much to stop doing that.

More like big international companies like to use cheap labour?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:35 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
I wanted to check with the forum here something that I noticed with the numbers that are reported. China stands out in one thing, with approx. 3.5k deaths and 76k recoveries out of 82k cases (these are confirmed cases, just to be fair; the real numbers of people that got the virus but do not even know it/haven't reported it are not known of course).

The US has had 5k deaths, with 8k recoveries out of 216k cases (~2%)! Pretty much other countries reports are "similar" to this, the recoveries are quite low (less than half let's say) compared to the cases reported; but for some reason China's recovery rate is almost 92%!!!

We can of course think that China is ahead of everyone else in this pandemic, but on the flip side the rest of the world had much more notice and opportunity to get prepared compared to China.

Does anybody else find this strange?

Did you not read the article I posted that suggests that China are lying and have been covering things up all along from the start to now, the Chinese deaths are probably at least 10 times the reported figure..

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:47 am 
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I'm going to gross some people out here, a friend of my mother's was waiting behind a young man at a cash machine, he took his cash and then spit on the machine saying something like "there that will do".

I went for a walk yesterday and was approaching an old man who had a walking stick, he must have been in his 90s, I crossed the road to avoid him to which he said "you can't avoid the wind as well".

My sister had a run with an old lady who refused the cashier's request for her to keep a safe distance in the check out queue, to which she replied "you're not telling me what to do".

There is a certain element in society who just don't care.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:30 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Should we really be trading with a country like China?

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coronavi ... d=SK216DHP

We love our iPhones too much to stop doing that.

More like big international companies like to use cheap labour?

Chicken or egg? Consumers require a price point, that price point dictates the labour cost.

I'm not defending organisations, but it wouldn't be possible to sell the phones at the price they are sold at now if they were suddenly made in a country at Western minimum wage levels.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:33 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I'm going to gross some people out here, a friend of my mother's was waiting behind a young man at a cash machine, he took his cash and then spit on the machine saying something like "there that will do".

I went for a walk yesterday and was approaching an old man who had a walking stick, he must have been in his 90s, I crossed the road to avoid him to which he said "you can't avoid the wind as well".

My sister had a run with an old lady who refused the cashier's request for her to keep a safe distance in the check out queue, to which she replied "you're not telling me what to do".

There is a certain element in society who just don't care.

That cash machine incident is a criminal offense for which he would have been prosecuted for if it was reported to the police. There has been at least one similar incident of a guy who spat on his hand and rubbed it on the hand rail on the London underground who was prosecuted for it.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:37 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I wanted to check with the forum here something that I noticed with the numbers that are reported. China stands out in one thing, with approx. 3.5k deaths and 76k recoveries out of 82k cases (these are confirmed cases, just to be fair; the real numbers of people that got the virus but do not even know it/haven't reported it are not known of course).

The US has had 5k deaths, with 8k recoveries out of 216k cases (~2%)! Pretty much other countries reports are "similar" to this, the recoveries are quite low (less than half let's say) compared to the cases reported; but for some reason China's recovery rate is almost 92%!!!

We can of course think that China is ahead of everyone else in this pandemic, but on the flip side the rest of the world had much more notice and opportunity to get prepared compared to China.

Does anybody else find this strange?

Did you not read the article I posted that suggests that China are lying and have been covering things up all along from the start to now, the Chinese deaths are probably at least 10 times the reported figure..


I'm sorry Poker, I missed that article. I generally don't have much time left now that we have to work from home, it is so weird!

I would agree that many (not only China) countries may have got figures that are not aligned with the reality, but if it is a deliberate tactic, a result of being difficult to police/measure or a flat out lie, it is something that I can't really say


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:42 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm going to gross some people out here, a friend of my mother's was waiting behind a young man at a cash machine, he took his cash and then spit on the machine saying something like "there that will do".

I went for a walk yesterday and was approaching an old man who had a walking stick, he must have been in his 90s, I crossed the road to avoid him to which he said "you can't avoid the wind as well".

My sister had a run with an old lady who refused the cashier's request for her to keep a safe distance in the check out queue, to which she replied "you're not telling me what to do".

There is a certain element in society who just don't care.

That cash machine incident is a criminal offense for which he would have been prosecuted for if it was reported to the police. There has been at least one similar incident of a guy who spat on his hand and rubbed it on the hand rail on the London underground who was prosecuted for it.


There's been a few. There was a lady in a flight that "sneezed" deliberately on an air hostess and was detained I think. And I've heard of incidents from other countries too.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:49 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
I generally don't have much time left now that we have to work from home, it is so weird!


On a slightly different note, how many of you working from home during all of this are finding that actually, you're working far more hours than you normally would in the office?

I'm definitely doing that. And I'm salaried so it makes no difference to my wages, but I'm still finding myself doing it!

My wife on the other hand gets paid overtime and works for a Life Assurance company on Death Claims. Because they've closed down the offshore offices in India they are getting offered overtime and she's been doing on average about 20 hours extra a week, spread over the weekdays and five hours each on Saturday and Sunday. So we're bringing in a fair bit more money at the moment and not being able to spend it - which is good :)

I very much appreciate we are a couple of the lucky ones that haven't had financial implications to deal with on top of everything else going on right now!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:15 pm 
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SteveW wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I generally don't have much time left now that we have to work from home, it is so weird!


On a slightly different note, how many of you working from home during all of this are finding that actually, you're working far more hours than you normally would in the office?

I'm definitely doing that. And I'm salaried so it makes no difference to my wages, but I'm still finding myself doing it!

My wife on the other hand gets paid overtime and works for a Life Assurance company on Death Claims. Because they've closed down the offshore offices in India they are getting offered overtime and she's been doing on average about 20 hours extra a week, spread over the weekdays and five hours each on Saturday and Sunday. So we're bringing in a fair bit more money at the moment and not being able to spend it - which is good :)

I very much appreciate we are a couple of the lucky ones that haven't had financial implications to deal with on top of everything else going on right now!


For the last two days I had meetings running from 12:00 until 16:00, right through lunch time. People do not have enough time in the day, we spend all the time on the phone and not achieving much, it is very unproductive in terms of actual work. I work easily 20% more hours than before, unpaid like yourself.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:48 pm 
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SteveW wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I generally don't have much time left now that we have to work from home, it is so weird!


On a slightly different note, how many of you working from home during all of this are finding that actually, you're working far more hours than you normally would in the office?

I'm definitely doing that. And I'm salaried so it makes no difference to my wages, but I'm still finding myself doing it!

My wife on the other hand gets paid overtime and works for a Life Assurance company on Death Claims. Because they've closed down the offshore offices in India they are getting offered overtime and she's been doing on average about 20 hours extra a week, spread over the weekdays and five hours each on Saturday and Sunday. So we're bringing in a fair bit more money at the moment and not being able to spend it - which is good :)

I very much appreciate we are a couple of the lucky ones that haven't had financial implications to deal with on top of everything else going on right now!


I love working from home, been doing it for years. The trick for me is I need to be super disciplined else things can easily get away from me e.g. have a dedicated space and a proper work day schedule, I won't work outside normal working hours unless there are exceptional circumstances and absolutely no working in PJs and no glasses of wine during working hours ;-) It's easy for work and home life to get blurred if you're not careful and that is not good for your state of mind.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:54 pm 
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Biffa wrote:
SteveW wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I generally don't have much time left now that we have to work from home, it is so weird!


On a slightly different note, how many of you working from home during all of this are finding that actually, you're working far more hours than you normally would in the office?

I'm definitely doing that. And I'm salaried so it makes no difference to my wages, but I'm still finding myself doing it!

My wife on the other hand gets paid overtime and works for a Life Assurance company on Death Claims. Because they've closed down the offshore offices in India they are getting offered overtime and she's been doing on average about 20 hours extra a week, spread over the weekdays and five hours each on Saturday and Sunday. So we're bringing in a fair bit more money at the moment and not being able to spend it - which is good :)

I very much appreciate we are a couple of the lucky ones that haven't had financial implications to deal with on top of everything else going on right now!


I love working from home, been doing it for years. The trick for me is I need to be super disciplined else things can easily get away from me e.g. have a dedicated space and a proper work day schedule, I won't work outside normal working hours unless there are exceptional circumstances and absolutely no working in PJs and no glasses of wine during working hours ;-) It's easy for work and home life to get blurred if you're not careful and that is not good for your state of mind.

I guess it depends what you do and what you are used to. Seems like you have it figured out!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:57 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Should we really be trading with a country like China?

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coronavi ... d=SK216DHP

We love our iPhones too much to stop doing that.

More like big international companies like to use cheap labour?

Chicken or egg? Consumers require a price point, that price point dictates the labour cost.

I'm not defending organisations, but it wouldn't be possible to sell the phones at the price they are sold at now if they were suddenly made in a country at Western minimum wage levels.

Apple are reporting a quarterly profit of over 20 billion dollars. In 2019 they sold about 40 million iPhones. So by reducing their profits they could reduce their phone prices by up to $2000. I know I'm over-simplifying the situation here, but they don't have their production abroad solely for the good of the customers.

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