F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

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pokerman
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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by pokerman »

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You'd be better off putting it on the lottery. :)
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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Invade wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:I think Ferrari are going all in on 2021 and that this is basically a 2019B car. That's not based on today's pace, it's been my suspicion since the end of last year.

Could you tell us more about why you think so? It sounds very intriguing. Naturally, I can imagine why might choose to do that, but would like to hear more of your reasoning.
One team has long been rumoured to only been running 2021 stuff in their wind tunnel. At first I assumed it was AlphaTauri to get data for both teams, but the more I think about it Ferrari makes sense. They've gone through three regulation changes since last winning anything, they can't afford to be on the back foot after another. Not winning in 2020 will be insignificant versus having a head start going into the biggest regulation change since 2014. Also, their unveiling made several comments about the challenges 2020 brought as they had to also develop for 2021 - almost preparing the excuses for apoor 2020 at the start.

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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by jono794 »

mds wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote: I expect there will be a lot of grumbling early doors, especially if the RP is scoring big points, but I can't see them developing the car properly at all if its just the W10 with a pink paint job.
Well of course it isn't a pink W10 and there shouldn't be any complaints. It is indeed probable they buy listed parts, but aero and chassis are not listed, meaning they have to do that themselves.

So what you see is them having studied the outside of the W10 very well to take the same design direction. Logically that would to well with the listed parts they bought - given that it works for Mercedes as well.

But true performance doesn't just lie in the listed parts and trying to copy the aero. They have to get it right, and then they also have to get everything underneath the bodywork right as well. And you can't simply copy that...
Image
It's a copy.

(Image via Reddit)
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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

jono794 wrote:
mds wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote: I expect there will be a lot of grumbling early doors, especially if the RP is scoring big points, but I can't see them developing the car properly at all if its just the W10 with a pink paint job.
Well of course it isn't a pink W10 and there shouldn't be any complaints. It is indeed probable they buy listed parts, but aero and chassis are not listed, meaning they have to do that themselves.

So what you see is them having studied the outside of the W10 very well to take the same design direction. Logically that would to well with the listed parts they bought - given that it works for Mercedes as well.

But true performance doesn't just lie in the listed parts and trying to copy the aero. They have to get it right, and then they also have to get everything underneath the bodywork right as well. And you can't simply copy that...
Image
It's a copy.

(Image via Reddit)
If Reddit can get hold of that detailed photograph of the W10 brake assembly then it is clearly impossible for Racing Point to do so.

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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by jono794 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote: If Reddit can get hold of that detailed photograph of the W10 brake assembly then it is clearly impossible for Racing Point to do so.
What are you getting at? I just wanted to point out there seems to be much more than a passing similarity between the RP20 and W10. It's not just the ducting, have a look at the upright and suspension pickups - I surmise the entire front suspension shares the same geometry.
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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

jono794 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote: If Reddit can get hold of that detailed photograph of the W10 brake assembly then it is clearly impossible for Racing Point to do so.
What are you getting at? I just wanted to point out there seems to be much more than a passing similarity between the RP20 and W10. It's not just the ducting, have a look at the upright and suspension pickups - I surmise the entire front suspension shares the same geometry.
Apologies, I inferred that you meant it was illegally copied (ie shared blueprints of parts that aren't allowed to be shared) - Racing Point have openly said that they have bought as much as they are legally allowed to from Mercedes, in the same way Haas have from Ferrari.

At the end of the day, if we can get a photograph that shows the two cars look identical, the most that proves is that Racing Point saw the same photograph of the W10 that we are comparing it to.

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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by mds »

jono794 wrote: Image
It's a copy.

(Image via Reddit)
I'm not sure what your post would add or detract from my post... They have simply tried to copy all they could see, that is basically what I said.

The point I was making is that that doesn't make it "a W10 with a pink paint job".
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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by UnlikeUday »

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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by mikeyg123 »

I think after day 1 it's safe to say the 2020 season will be a hard thought battle between Mercedes and Racing Point.

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MistaVega23
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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by MistaVega23 »

mds wrote:
MistaVega23 wrote:Watching some of the day's footage, it's going to be difficult to identify some drivers from the head-on shots during race weekends. I thought their numbers were supposed to be clear for viewers on TV?

The Alfas, AlphaTauris and Red Bulls I can't see their numbers at all...
Both RBR and AT have it in front of the cockpit (horizontal section on top of the nose), see here for example: https://www.gptoday.net/en/photos/f/5e4 ... 818e7c.jpg

AR have it on the angled section of the nose: https://www.gptoday.net/en/photos/f/5e4 ... 81daa8.jpg
That's my issue - I thought they brought in the 'bigger' numbers in 2017 to primarily make it easier for viewers to identify each driver on-track. Apart from the Ferrari, Haas, RP and Renault cars (even the Mercs used to be more identifiable until they went for black numbers), I don't see the point in having their numbers in front of the cockpit before the nose starts to drop?

I'm being picky I know, but thought I'd raise it in case anyone feels the same way :lol:
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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by jono794 »

mds wrote:I'm not sure what your post would add or detract from my post... They have simply tried to copy all they could see, that is basically what I said.

The point I was making is that that doesn't make it "a W10 with a pink paint job".
I would expect passing similarities between the two cars, but those hub assemblies are the same design - even the fasteners are in the same places. You said yourself you can't just copy something and expect it to work unless you know the concept behind it, and since these parts are subject to hundreds of iterations I find it pretty unlikely RP just happened to end up with the same thing Mercedes had last year.

Edit: I suppose that last statement might be plausible, if the same wind tunnel and software is used... The fasteners are the giveaway, but RP can legally buy Mercedes uprights can't they? Maybe they are playing with a grey area in the rules about what actually constitutes a 'part' since they all work together so closely. Are we looking at aero parts or chassis parts?

Something we can both agree on is how striking the difference in build quality is...
Last edited by jono794 on Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by jono794 »

mikeyg123 wrote:I think after day 1 it's safe to say the 2020 season will be a hard thought battle between Mercedes and Racing Point.
But they'll be working together in the courtroom :lol:
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mds
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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by mds »

MistaVega23 wrote:
mds wrote:
MistaVega23 wrote:Watching some of the day's footage, it's going to be difficult to identify some drivers from the head-on shots during race weekends. I thought their numbers were supposed to be clear for viewers on TV?

The Alfas, AlphaTauris and Red Bulls I can't see their numbers at all...
Both RBR and AT have it in front of the cockpit (horizontal section on top of the nose), see here for example: https://www.gptoday.net/en/photos/f/5e4 ... 818e7c.jpg

AR have it on the angled section of the nose: https://www.gptoday.net/en/photos/f/5e4 ... 81daa8.jpg
That's my issue - I thought they brought in the 'bigger' numbers in 2017 to primarily make it easier for viewers to identify each driver on-track. Apart from the Ferrari, Haas, RP and Renault cars (even the Mercs used to be more identifiable until they went for black numbers), I don't see the point in having their numbers in front of the cockpit before the nose starts to drop?

I'm being picky I know, but thought I'd raise it in case anyone feels the same way :lol:
No I get your point - and honestly I haven't done an effort op until now to try and identify drivers by their car numbers. Probably because they are indeed not very noticeable or recognizable...
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mds
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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by mds »

jono794 wrote:
mds wrote:I'm not sure what your post would add or detract from my post... They have simply tried to copy all they could see, that is basically what I said.

The point I was making is that that doesn't make it "a W10 with a pink paint job".
I would expect passing similarities between the two cars, but those hub assemblies are the same design - even the fasteners are in the same places. You said yourself you can't just copy something and expect it to work unless you know the concept behind it, and since these parts are subject to hundreds of iterations I find it pretty unlikely RP just happened to end up with the same thing Mercedes had last year.

Edit: I suppose that last statement might be plausible, if the same wind tunnel and software is used... The fasteners are the giveaway, but RP can legally buy Mercedes uprights can't they? Maybe they are playing with a grey area in the rules about what actually constitutes a 'part' since they all work together so closely. Are we looking at aero parts or chassis parts?
Well, I don't know 100% sure which parts are listed and which are not. Would have to dive into the technical regulations again. What I do know is Mercedes will not risk trespassing regulations in this matter since the consequences would far outweigh the eventual gains to be made from it.

So then it's either Racing Point having stolen technical documents and creating an actual copy (which of course I cannot prove nor disprove) or them having done a good job in bringing over what they've seen from photos to their own car.

I'm an optimist so I would rather believe the latter :)
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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by Harpo »

jono794 wrote:
mds wrote:I'm not sure what your post would add or detract from my post... They have simply tried to copy all they could see, that is basically what I said.

The point I was making is that that doesn't make it "a W10 with a pink paint job".
I would expect passing similarities between the two cars, but those hub assemblies are the same design - even the fasteners are in the same places. You said yourself you can't just copy something and expect it to work unless you know the concept behind it, and since these parts are subject to hundreds of iterations I find it pretty unlikely RP just happened to end up with the same thing Mercedes had last year.

Edit: I suppose that last statement might be plausible, if the same wind tunnel and software is used... The fasteners are the giveaway, but RP can legally buy Mercedes uprights can't they? Maybe they are playing with a grey area in the rules about what actually constitutes a 'part' since they all work together so closely. Are we looking at aero parts or chassis parts?

Something we can both agree on is how striking the difference in build quality is...
I'm far from being a rocket scientist, or a high-tech engineer, but I know specialists can guess the way the hidden technique works from the visible parts and shapes. You don't always need to get the original drawings, or buy spare parts, to build a copy. Good photos and technical knowledge are enough most of the time (which explain why they used to cover wrecked cars showing too much of their underwear)
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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by Option or Prime »

Day 2 of testing and Renault with Daniel Ricciardo have just done a super quick lap! 1:17.749 beating Leclercs fastest of 1:18.335.

Seems its all way to early to predict this seasons fastest manufacturer.

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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by Asphalt_World »

So, any idea why it appears Hamilton's steering wheel is pulled towards him on the straights? 8O :? 8O

https://twitter.com/i/status/1230423655492071425

https://twitter.com/i/status/1230423525347020800
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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by Clarky »

Was just about to post this.

Apparently it is this is a trick to improve upon the issues caused by Pushrod on upright for the driver.

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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by Option or Prime »

Oohh err, thats weird, variable aero for speed on the straights? Is that even allowed...pure guesswork!

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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by A_Game_A_Day »

Harpo wrote:
jono794 wrote:
mds wrote:I'm not sure what your post would add or detract from my post... They have simply tried to copy all they could see, that is basically what I said.

The point I was making is that that doesn't make it "a W10 with a pink paint job".
I would expect passing similarities between the two cars, but those hub assemblies are the same design - even the fasteners are in the same places. You said yourself you can't just copy something and expect it to work unless you know the concept behind it, and since these parts are subject to hundreds of iterations I find it pretty unlikely RP just happened to end up with the same thing Mercedes had last year.

Edit: I suppose that last statement might be plausible, if the same wind tunnel and software is used... The fasteners are the giveaway, but RP can legally buy Mercedes uprights can't they? Maybe they are playing with a grey area in the rules about what actually constitutes a 'part' since they all work together so closely. Are we looking at aero parts or chassis parts?

Something we can both agree on is how striking the difference in build quality is...
I'm far from being a rocket scientist, or a high-tech engineer, but I know specialists can guess the way the hidden technique works from the visible parts and shapes. You don't always need to get the original drawings, or buy spare parts, to build a copy. Good photos and technical knowledge are enough most of the time (which explain why they used to cover wrecked cars showing too much of their underwear)
Also, whilst being highly similar, there are enough detailed differences in the design to give it credit as a Racing Point 'homage' to the original. Fixings are slightly different, and the ducts are different enough that we cannot call it a clone.

One thing comes to mind is that it'll be fun to watch whether this car is wasted on Stroll - could RP (or any team) achieve 4th without two 'performing' drivers - or whether a good car really does enable drivers to shine.

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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by mikeyg123 »

A_Game_A_Day wrote:
Harpo wrote:
jono794 wrote:
mds wrote:I'm not sure what your post would add or detract from my post... They have simply tried to copy all they could see, that is basically what I said.

The point I was making is that that doesn't make it "a W10 with a pink paint job".
I would expect passing similarities between the two cars, but those hub assemblies are the same design - even the fasteners are in the same places. You said yourself you can't just copy something and expect it to work unless you know the concept behind it, and since these parts are subject to hundreds of iterations I find it pretty unlikely RP just happened to end up with the same thing Mercedes had last year.

Edit: I suppose that last statement might be plausible, if the same wind tunnel and software is used... The fasteners are the giveaway, but RP can legally buy Mercedes uprights can't they? Maybe they are playing with a grey area in the rules about what actually constitutes a 'part' since they all work together so closely. Are we looking at aero parts or chassis parts?

Something we can both agree on is how striking the difference in build quality is...
I'm far from being a rocket scientist, or a high-tech engineer, but I know specialists can guess the way the hidden technique works from the visible parts and shapes. You don't always need to get the original drawings, or buy spare parts, to build a copy. Good photos and technical knowledge are enough most of the time (which explain why they used to cover wrecked cars showing too much of their underwear)
Also, whilst being highly similar, there are enough detailed differences in the design to give it credit as a Racing Point 'homage' to the original. Fixings are slightly different, and the ducts are different enough that we cannot call it a clone.

One thing comes to mind is that it'll be fun to watch whether this car is wasted on Stroll - could RP (or any team) achieve 4th without two 'performing' drivers - or whether a good car really does enable drivers to shine.
It depends how good the car is. Last season Mclaren would still have finished 4th if Norris had been totally pointless.

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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by mds »

Asphalt_World wrote:So, any idea why it appears Hamilton's steering wheel is pulled towards him on the straights? 8O :? 8O

https://twitter.com/i/status/1230423655492071425

https://twitter.com/i/status/1230423525347020800
More on this:

Some interesting discussions going on right now regarding the Mercedes car. Replays show what appears to be the camber changing along the straight following fore and aft movements on the steering wheel.
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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by Clarky »

mds wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:So, any idea why it appears Hamilton's steering wheel is pulled towards him on the straights? 8O :? 8O

https://twitter.com/i/status/1230423655492071425

https://twitter.com/i/status/1230423525347020800
More on this:

Some interesting discussions going on right now regarding the Mercedes car. Replays show what appears to be the camber changing along the straight following fore and aft movements on the steering wheel.
There must be some kind of button to allow this.

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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by A_Game_A_Day »

mikeyg123 wrote:
A_Game_A_Day wrote:
Harpo wrote:
jono794 wrote:
mds wrote:I'm not sure what your post would add or detract from my post... They have simply tried to copy all they could see, that is basically what I said.

The point I was making is that that doesn't make it "a W10 with a pink paint job".
I would expect passing similarities between the two cars, but those hub assemblies are the same design - even the fasteners are in the same places. You said yourself you can't just copy something and expect it to work unless you know the concept behind it, and since these parts are subject to hundreds of iterations I find it pretty unlikely RP just happened to end up with the same thing Mercedes had last year.

Edit: I suppose that last statement might be plausible, if the same wind tunnel and software is used... The fasteners are the giveaway, but RP can legally buy Mercedes uprights can't they? Maybe they are playing with a grey area in the rules about what actually constitutes a 'part' since they all work together so closely. Are we looking at aero parts or chassis parts?

Something we can both agree on is how striking the difference in build quality is...
I'm far from being a rocket scientist, or a high-tech engineer, but I know specialists can guess the way the hidden technique works from the visible parts and shapes. You don't always need to get the original drawings, or buy spare parts, to build a copy. Good photos and technical knowledge are enough most of the time (which explain why they used to cover wrecked cars showing too much of their underwear)
Also, whilst being highly similar, there are enough detailed differences in the design to give it credit as a Racing Point 'homage' to the original. Fixings are slightly different, and the ducts are different enough that we cannot call it a clone.

One thing comes to mind is that it'll be fun to watch whether this car is wasted on Stroll - could RP (or any team) achieve 4th without two 'performing' drivers - or whether a good car really does enable drivers to shine.
It depends how good the car is. Last season Mclaren would still have finished 4th if Norris had been totally pointless.
Fair enough. I was too lazy to test the hypothesis before posting it! As a sweeping generalisation, I would suspect that two drivers maximising the potential of the car will produce a better team result than having imbalanced drivers even where one driver excels or even outperforms the car.

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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by Clarky »


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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by Greenman »

Asphalt_World wrote:So, any idea why it appears Hamilton's steering wheel is pulled towards him on the straights? 8O :? 8O

https://twitter.com/i/status/1230423655492071425

https://twitter.com/i/status/1230423525347020800
.

What I find more interesting is the cleaned up display screen - just concentrating on key info.

The steering wheel SEEMS to have three positions (????) furthest in, furthest out and a mid-point. so it seems to be a form of switch. I would GUESS for energy harvesting and use - but what do I know.

All good fun.

.

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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by Herb »

Looks like it changes the toe in/out:
That is genius. I have no idea if it will make it to Melbourne, but I love it.

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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by Asphalt_World »

I imagine it will be banned, as exciting and things like this are. If it's not some kind of movable aero, having a steering wheel that more (aside from turning the wheels) will probably be regarded as a safety issue.
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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by Herb »

Updated my completely pointless testing comparisons:

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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by f1madman »

mikeyg123 wrote:I think after day 1 it's safe to say the 2020 season will be a hard thought battle between Mercedes and Racing Point.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by shoot999 »

 

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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by Option or Prime »

Asphalt_World wrote:I imagine it will be banned, as exciting and things like this are. If it's not some kind of movable aero, having a steering wheel that more (aside from turning the wheels) will probably be regarded as a safety issue.
Mercedes are pretty confident that it is going to be allowed!

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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

mds wrote:
jono794 wrote: Image
It's a copy.

(Image via Reddit)
I'm not sure what your post would add or detract from my post... They have simply tried to copy all they could see, that is basically what I said.

The point I was making is that that doesn't make it "a W10 with a pink paint job".
I have got to agree here. We can see this much, so they clearly will have access to at least this much. There is not yet any evidence anywhere that everything inside will be the same and I doubt it will be. I am 100% certain Mercedes would have complained and been aware if they somehow knew about the whole car last year. No matter how many pics look the same, I couldn't say it is a copy unless we get far more evidence and it actually gets reported and they can't use it.

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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by Asphalt_World »

Interesting to see the Racing Point drivers pulling and pushing at the steering wheel, wondering why it isn't the same as the Mercedes.
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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by Mort Canard »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Mclaren have clearly joined the top 3 teams.
And Merc is not bothering with sandbagging, Bottas tops it at the moment!
Now Perez. Stroll 2020 WDC!
Heard it here first. Racing Pint set for a dominant 2020.
Apparently it's being called the pink Mercedes given it's resemblance.
Evidently there is a lot of griping in the paddock, that RP has just copied the W10 Merc car from last year. Reports are the differences between the two cars are few and far between.
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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by UnlikeUday »

End of day 2:

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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

Not a great day for Renault, they did not make 3 figures. They are the team that need to make use of this testing. Other teams are doing good mileage. Especially Mercedes with 180 odd laps.
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Re: F1 2020 Pre-season Barcelona Test 1

Post by Asphalt_World »

mikeyg123 wrote:I think after day 1 it's safe to say the 2020 season will be a hard thought battle between Mercedes and Racing Point.
I think after day 2 it's safe to say the 2020 season will be dominated by Alfa Romeo.
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