Rank the number twos

Rank the supporting drivers

Poll ended at Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:20 am

Rank the number twos
32
6%
Coulthard
20
4%
Coulthard_1
18
4%
Coulthard_2
12
2%
Coulthard_3
1
0%
Coulthard_4
0
No votes
Irvine
13
3%
Irvine_1
13
3%
Irvine_2
15
3%
Irvine_3
14
3%
Irvine_4
0
No votes
Barrichello
21
4%
Barrichello_1
11
2%
Barrichello_2
11
2%
Barrichello_3
0
No votes
Barrichello_4
0
No votes
Trulli
14
3%
Trulli_1
11
2%
Trulli_2
17
3%
Trulli_3
12
2%
Trulli_4
0
No votes
Fisichella
21
4%
Fisichella_1
20
4%
Fisichella_2
20
4%
Fisichella_3
7
1%
Fisichella_4
0
No votes
Massa
15
3%
Massa_1
18
4%
Massa_2
16
3%
Massa_3
2
0%
Massa_4
0
No votes
Kovalainen
25
5%
Kovalainen_1
6
1%
Kovalainen_2
5
1%
Kovalainen_3
26
5%
Kovalainen_4
0
No votes
Webber
16
3%
Webber_1
16
3%
Webber_2
17
3%
Webber_3
1
0%
Webber_4
0
No votes
Bottas
15
3%
Bottas_1
15
3%
Bottas_2
15
3%
Bottas_3
1
0%
Bottas_4
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 512

Siao7
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Siao7 »

Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:Jarno had already made arrangements with Toyota as early as June or something as I mentioned before, everyone knew he was leaving and he had said it himself publicly.
I can't find that in the Autosport news archive. In fact, the initial impression in June is the contrary. Not that I doubt Jarno had been speaking with Toyota; he would have been unwise not to.
Can you indicate where you found news to explain what you remember?
I found these:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/23835 ... nault.html

https://www.grandprix.com/news/trulli-t ... nault.html

He was sacked in September, this is from July (not June that I remembered), although the paddock was buzzing since before that. But it is semantics at this point I guess

mikeyg123
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by mikeyg123 »

Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:Jarno had already made arrangements with Toyota as early as June or something as I mentioned before, everyone knew he was leaving and he had said it himself publicly.
I can't find that in the Autosport news archive. In fact, the initial impression in June is the contrary. Not that I doubt Jarno had been speaking with Toyota; he would have been unwise not to.
Can you indicate where you found news to explain what you remember?
I found these:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/23835 ... nault.html

https://www.grandprix.com/news/trulli-t ... nault.html

He was sacked in September, this is from July (not June that I remembered), although the paddock was buzzing since before that. But it is semantics at this point I guess
Yes, that article suggests Fisichella is about to be announced but I remember before that it was known for sometime Trulli would be leaving and the choice was between Fisichella and Webber for the Renault drive. Webber famously turned it down in favour of Williams. So by the time of that article talk had been ongoing for some time.

Siao7
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:Jarno had already made arrangements with Toyota as early as June or something as I mentioned before, everyone knew he was leaving and he had said it himself publicly.
I can't find that in the Autosport news archive. In fact, the initial impression in June is the contrary. Not that I doubt Jarno had been speaking with Toyota; he would have been unwise not to.
Can you indicate where you found news to explain what you remember?
I found these:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/23835 ... nault.html

https://www.grandprix.com/news/trulli-t ... nault.html

He was sacked in September, this is from July (not June that I remembered), although the paddock was buzzing since before that. But it is semantics at this point I guess
Yes, that article suggests Fisichella is about to be announced but I remember before that it was known for sometime Trulli would be leaving and the choice was between Fisichella and Webber for the Renault drive. Webber famously turned it down in favour of Williams. So by the time of that article talk had been ongoing for some time.
Correct, that's why I mentioned that the paddock was buzzing with this. It was well knows, just waiting to be confirmed. Trulli turned down Williams for the Toyota money, it was quite the move back then

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Randine
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Randine »

Webber is sitting 5th in the poll.
Personally I think he is the best on this list.

He was 33 when he finally got into a championship contender. And partnered with a team mate that was from the Red Bull driver program that at the time was totally unproven. Marko needed Vettel to win to show the investment in the program was worthwhile to the boss.

In 2010 Webber was leading the championship after the summer break and asked the team to get VEttel to support him. They refused.

Webber was mighty at high speed corners and showed Vettel where he could gain time.
Unfortunately for Webber, Vettel was better at slow speed corners where more time is lost than with high speed ones.

A lot of people say, well Webber was in the best car but never got 2nd in the championship.
To that you need to look at how Red Bull was set up for most of 2009-2013. They sacrificed top speed for cornering performance giving them overall better lap times. So if you got pole and got out in front, you were pulling away from the pack.
If you had McLaren or Ferrari in front, you were compromised because you were down on top speed to pass.
How many of Vettel’s wins came from pole? And I believe he has never won from below 4th on the grid.

Webber will be remembered as pretty average, but with team backing and the confidence of a WDC in 2010, it might have ended up 2 - 2 Vettel v Webber.
Sadly it was 4 - 0.
At least he spent over 10 years in F1 on merit, was never a pay driver in a highly competitive business!
Dan the man!


pokerman
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by pokerman »

Randine wrote:Webber is sitting 5th in the poll.
Personally I think he is the best on this list.

He was 33 when he finally got into a championship contender. And partnered with a team mate that was from the Red Bull driver program that at the time was totally unproven. Marko needed Vettel to win to show the investment in the program was worthwhile to the boss.

In 2010 Webber was leading the championship after the summer break and asked the team to get VEttel to support him. They refused.

Webber was mighty at high speed corners and showed Vettel where he could gain time.
Unfortunately for Webber, Vettel was better at slow speed corners where more time is lost than with high speed ones.

A lot of people say, well Webber was in the best car but never got 2nd in the championship.
To that you need to look at how Red Bull was set up for most of 2009-2013. They sacrificed top speed for cornering performance giving them overall better lap times. So if you got pole and got out in front, you were pulling away from the pack.
If you had McLaren or Ferrari in front, you were compromised because you were down on top speed to pass.
How many of Vettel’s wins came from pole? And I believe he has never won from below 4th on the grid.

Webber will be remembered as pretty average, but with team backing and the confidence of a WDC in 2010, it might have ended up 2 - 2 Vettel v Webber.
Sadly it was 4 - 0.
At least he spent over 10 years in F1 on merit, was never a pay driver in a highly competitive business!
Webber only got close to Vettel in 2010 due to better mechanical reliability, Webber only really looked competitive against Vettel in 2009 but unfortunately that year it was him that suffered with mechanical unreliability.
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F1Oz
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by F1Oz »

You mean Vettel collided with Webber in Austria - as it was CLEARLY Vettel's fault?

F1Oz
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by F1Oz »

2010 if the team had not played favourites - would have been Webber's year - the 'not bad for a number 2' was after Vettel damaged the better wing and then got given Webber's upgrade - so Webber won with the downgrade version - just stuffed up at Korea spinning off the painted line in the wet - if not, he'd have won the WDC

mikeyg123
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by mikeyg123 »

What's odd here is that we saw Irvine and Barrichello together as team mates. They were very, very even. Yet Barrichello is rated 1st and Irvine last but 1.

mikeyg123
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1Oz wrote:2010 if the team had not played favourites - would have been Webber's year - the 'not bad for a number 2' was after Vettel damaged the better wing and then got given Webber's upgrade - so Webber won with the downgrade version - just stuffed up at Korea spinning off the painted line in the wet - if not, he'd have won the WDC
Where did Red Bull favouring Vettel take points off Webber? Looking at it objectively the team cost Vettel more points in 2010 than Webber.

pokerman
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by pokerman »

F1Oz wrote:2010 if the team had not played favourites - would have been Webber's year - the 'not bad for a number 2' was after Vettel damaged the better wing and then got given Webber's upgrade - so Webber won with the downgrade version - just stuffed up at Korea spinning off the painted line in the wet - if not, he'd have won the WDC
Webber never wanted the front wing in the first place, he just liked to play the martyr.
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Siao7
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Siao7 »

pokerman wrote:
F1Oz wrote:2010 if the team had not played favourites - would have been Webber's year - the 'not bad for a number 2' was after Vettel damaged the better wing and then got given Webber's upgrade - so Webber won with the downgrade version - just stuffed up at Korea spinning off the painted line in the wet - if not, he'd have won the WDC
Webber never wanted the front wing in the first place, he just liked to play the martyr.
From memory he never liked the new wing and found the old spec better and faster (I think his engineer mentioned that). But when they gave it to Vettel, he kicked up a fuss.

pokerman
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1Oz wrote:2010 if the team had not played favourites - would have been Webber's year - the 'not bad for a number 2' was after Vettel damaged the better wing and then got given Webber's upgrade - so Webber won with the downgrade version - just stuffed up at Korea spinning off the painted line in the wet - if not, he'd have won the WDC
Webber never wanted the front wing in the first place, he just liked to play the martyr.
From memory he never liked the new wing and found the old spec better and faster (I think his engineer mentioned that). But when they gave it to Vettel, he kicked up a fuss.
Yep he very much liked playing the victim.
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j man
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by j man »

mikeyg123 wrote:What's odd here is that we saw Irvine and Barrichello together as team mates. They were very, very even. Yet Barrichello is rated 1st and Irvine last but 1.
A fair point, and to be honest I had forgotten about that. Taking their entire careers into consideration though I think the ranking is fair, it shows how some drivers deliver on their early potential and some do not. Irvine was a bit like Jean Alesi for me, he showed plenty of raw speed when he first came into the sport but then never seemed to develop from there. It's like he was the same driver in his 100th race as he was in his first.

In a similar manner any driver ranking poll containing Fisichella and Button would have Button comfortably ahead, even though Fisi utterly trounced him when they were team mates for a year.

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Banana Man
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Banana Man »

F1Oz wrote:2010 if the team had not played favourites - would have been Webber's year - the 'not bad for a number 2' was after Vettel damaged the better wing and then got given Webber's upgrade - so Webber won with the downgrade version - just stuffed up at Korea spinning off the painted line in the wet - if not, he'd have won the WDC
He also plowed Kovalainen in Valencia. Vettel's car failed whilst leading in Bahrain, Australia and Korea. 63 points lost, through no fault of his own whilst Webber's car was pretty much bulletproof.

Vettel was better all season, Webber was only in the fight through luck.
I remember when this website was all fields.

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Banana Man
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Banana Man »

j man wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:What's odd here is that we saw Irvine and Barrichello together as team mates. They were very, very even. Yet Barrichello is rated 1st and Irvine last but 1.
A fair point, and to be honest I had forgotten about that. Taking their entire careers into consideration though I think the ranking is fair, it shows how some drivers deliver on their early potential and some do not. Irvine was a bit like Jean Alesi for me, he showed plenty of raw speed when he first came into the sport but then never seemed to develop from there. It's like he was the same driver in his 100th race as he was in his first.

In a similar manner any driver ranking poll containing Fisichella and Button would have Button comfortably ahead, even though Fisi utterly trounced him when they were team mates for a year.
Aside from their period as team mates, I think Rubens was overall far more impressive. He matched Michael for performance a couple of races a year and was good value for the odd win, something which could never really be said about Irvine. He also put in some cracking drives for Stewart, Jordan and Honda/Brawn which we never really saw from Irvine at Jaguar.

2001 was probably Button's weakest season. Fisi wouldn't have got near him in his Brawn or McLaren days.
I remember when this website was all fields.

F1 Racer
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by F1 Racer »

Why isn't Button down as one of the options?

He was a solid number two to Ralf Schumacher in 2000, then a bad number two to Fisichella in 2001. Then he was a very good number two to Hamilton from 2010 to 2012, (despite crashing into him in Canada 2011, he made up for it by winning the grand prix). Then he finished his career as a solid number two to Alonso for a couple of years.

If Button doesn't count because he was never officially designated a 'number two' and instead just drove like one during a few seasons, then I would say the same applies to Coulthard, (he was equal number one with Hakkinen and Raikkonen but was slower than them most seasons), yet DC appears in this list.

If it was because Button won a WDC in 2009, then does this mean that Barrichello would not appear in this list had he himself won the WDC in 2009? If so, then that would rule him out despite being the most 'famous' number two for his exploits pre-winning that WDC, (2000 to 2005), so really he should still count on that basis. If hypothetically Barrichello should count even if he were WDC, then so should Button. The same thing with Massa, would he not be in this list if Timo Glock were a couple of seconds further up the road in Brazil 2008?

I am sure that you are understanding where I am going with this. What defines a 'number two' driver? ;)

mikeyg123
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1 Racer wrote:Why isn't Button down as one of the options?

He was a solid number two to Ralf Schumacher in 2000, then a bad number two to Fisichella in 2001. Then he was a very good number two to Hamilton from 2010 to 2012, (despite crashing into him in Canada 2011, he made up for it by winning the grand prix). Then he finished his career as a solid number two to Alonso for a couple of years.

If Button doesn't count because he was never officially designated a 'number two' and instead just drove like one during a few seasons, then I would say the same applies to Coulthard, (he was equal number one with Hakkinen and Raikkonen but was slower than them most seasons), yet DC appears in this list.

If it was because Button won a WDC in 2009, then does this mean that Barrichello would not appear in this list had he himself won the WDC in 2009? If so, then that would rule him out despite being the most 'famous' number two for his exploits pre-winning that WDC, (2000 to 2005), so really he should still count on that basis. If hypothetically Barrichello should count even if he were WDC, then so should Button. The same thing with Massa, would he not be in this list if Timo Glock were a couple of seconds further up the road in Brazil 2008?

I am sure that you are understanding where I am going with this. What defines a 'number two' driver? ;)
Button was never treated like a number 2. Unlike Coulthard or anyone else in the poll.

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:Why isn't Button down as one of the options?

He was a solid number two to Ralf Schumacher in 2000, then a bad number two to Fisichella in 2001. Then he was a very good number two to Hamilton from 2010 to 2012, (despite crashing into him in Canada 2011, he made up for it by winning the grand prix). Then he finished his career as a solid number two to Alonso for a couple of years.

If Button doesn't count because he was never officially designated a 'number two' and instead just drove like one during a few seasons, then I would say the same applies to Coulthard, (he was equal number one with Hakkinen and Raikkonen but was slower than them most seasons), yet DC appears in this list.

If it was because Button won a WDC in 2009, then does this mean that Barrichello would not appear in this list had he himself won the WDC in 2009? If so, then that would rule him out despite being the most 'famous' number two for his exploits pre-winning that WDC, (2000 to 2005), so really he should still count on that basis. If hypothetically Barrichello should count even if he were WDC, then so should Button. The same thing with Massa, would he not be in this list if Timo Glock were a couple of seconds further up the road in Brazil 2008?

I am sure that you are understanding where I am going with this. What defines a 'number two' driver? ;)
Button was never treated like a number 2. Unlike Coulthard or anyone else in the poll.
Button, Kimi and Rosberg have all partnered multi WDCs and were generally second best to them, but they all won WDCs unlike the options on this poll.

pokerman
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:Why isn't Button down as one of the options?

He was a solid number two to Ralf Schumacher in 2000, then a bad number two to Fisichella in 2001. Then he was a very good number two to Hamilton from 2010 to 2012, (despite crashing into him in Canada 2011, he made up for it by winning the grand prix). Then he finished his career as a solid number two to Alonso for a couple of years.

If Button doesn't count because he was never officially designated a 'number two' and instead just drove like one during a few seasons, then I would say the same applies to Coulthard, (he was equal number one with Hakkinen and Raikkonen but was slower than them most seasons), yet DC appears in this list.

If it was because Button won a WDC in 2009, then does this mean that Barrichello would not appear in this list had he himself won the WDC in 2009? If so, then that would rule him out despite being the most 'famous' number two for his exploits pre-winning that WDC, (2000 to 2005), so really he should still count on that basis. If hypothetically Barrichello should count even if he were WDC, then so should Button. The same thing with Massa, would he not be in this list if Timo Glock were a couple of seconds further up the road in Brazil 2008?

I am sure that you are understanding where I am going with this. What defines a 'number two' driver? ;)
Button was never treated like a number 2. Unlike Coulthard or anyone else in the poll.
Like I've said before when was either Webber or Trulli treated like a #2 driver?

The definitions seem quite murky to me, there are the definite ones like Irvine, Barrichello, Massa and Kimi but some others are less defined, even last season Hamilton on occasion I would say got disadvantaged in regard to Bottas, Japan being a case in point.
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mikeyg123
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:Why isn't Button down as one of the options?

He was a solid number two to Ralf Schumacher in 2000, then a bad number two to Fisichella in 2001. Then he was a very good number two to Hamilton from 2010 to 2012, (despite crashing into him in Canada 2011, he made up for it by winning the grand prix). Then he finished his career as a solid number two to Alonso for a couple of years.

If Button doesn't count because he was never officially designated a 'number two' and instead just drove like one during a few seasons, then I would say the same applies to Coulthard, (he was equal number one with Hakkinen and Raikkonen but was slower than them most seasons), yet DC appears in this list.

If it was because Button won a WDC in 2009, then does this mean that Barrichello would not appear in this list had he himself won the WDC in 2009? If so, then that would rule him out despite being the most 'famous' number two for his exploits pre-winning that WDC, (2000 to 2005), so really he should still count on that basis. If hypothetically Barrichello should count even if he were WDC, then so should Button. The same thing with Massa, would he not be in this list if Timo Glock were a couple of seconds further up the road in Brazil 2008?

I am sure that you are understanding where I am going with this. What defines a 'number two' driver? ;)
Button was never treated like a number 2. Unlike Coulthard or anyone else in the poll.
Like I've said before when was either Webber or Trulli treated like a #2 driver?

The definitions seem quite murky to me, there are the definite ones like Irvine, Barrichello, Massa and Kimi but some others are less defined, even last season Hamilton on occasion I would say got disadvantaged in regard to Bottas, Japan being a case in point.
For the purposes of this thread does it actually matter if we have a strict definition if not. I assume the OP just picked the drivers he personally thought best fitted the description.

pokerman
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:Why isn't Button down as one of the options?

He was a solid number two to Ralf Schumacher in 2000, then a bad number two to Fisichella in 2001. Then he was a very good number two to Hamilton from 2010 to 2012, (despite crashing into him in Canada 2011, he made up for it by winning the grand prix). Then he finished his career as a solid number two to Alonso for a couple of years.

If Button doesn't count because he was never officially designated a 'number two' and instead just drove like one during a few seasons, then I would say the same applies to Coulthard, (he was equal number one with Hakkinen and Raikkonen but was slower than them most seasons), yet DC appears in this list.

If it was because Button won a WDC in 2009, then does this mean that Barrichello would not appear in this list had he himself won the WDC in 2009? If so, then that would rule him out despite being the most 'famous' number two for his exploits pre-winning that WDC, (2000 to 2005), so really he should still count on that basis. If hypothetically Barrichello should count even if he were WDC, then so should Button. The same thing with Massa, would he not be in this list if Timo Glock were a couple of seconds further up the road in Brazil 2008?

I am sure that you are understanding where I am going with this. What defines a 'number two' driver? ;)
Button was never treated like a number 2. Unlike Coulthard or anyone else in the poll.
Like I've said before when was either Webber or Trulli treated like a #2 driver?

The definitions seem quite murky to me, there are the definite ones like Irvine, Barrichello, Massa and Kimi but some others are less defined, even last season Hamilton on occasion I would say got disadvantaged in regard to Bottas, Japan being a case in point.
For the purposes of this thread does it actually matter if we have a strict definition if not. I assume the OP just picked the drivers he personally thought best fitted the description.
Maybe it's the wording that's just wrong then?

It's a list of none WDC drivers that raced alongside WDC's, some past some future ones, other drivers could also be included like say Vandoorne, Piquet Jnr etc, for me there's not really a clear definition.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

mikeyg123
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:Why isn't Button down as one of the options?

He was a solid number two to Ralf Schumacher in 2000, then a bad number two to Fisichella in 2001. Then he was a very good number two to Hamilton from 2010 to 2012, (despite crashing into him in Canada 2011, he made up for it by winning the grand prix). Then he finished his career as a solid number two to Alonso for a couple of years.

If Button doesn't count because he was never officially designated a 'number two' and instead just drove like one during a few seasons, then I would say the same applies to Coulthard, (he was equal number one with Hakkinen and Raikkonen but was slower than them most seasons), yet DC appears in this list.

If it was because Button won a WDC in 2009, then does this mean that Barrichello would not appear in this list had he himself won the WDC in 2009? If so, then that would rule him out despite being the most 'famous' number two for his exploits pre-winning that WDC, (2000 to 2005), so really he should still count on that basis. If hypothetically Barrichello should count even if he were WDC, then so should Button. The same thing with Massa, would he not be in this list if Timo Glock were a couple of seconds further up the road in Brazil 2008?

I am sure that you are understanding where I am going with this. What defines a 'number two' driver? ;)
Button was never treated like a number 2. Unlike Coulthard or anyone else in the poll.
Like I've said before when was either Webber or Trulli treated like a #2 driver?

The definitions seem quite murky to me, there are the definite ones like Irvine, Barrichello, Massa and Kimi but some others are less defined, even last season Hamilton on occasion I would say got disadvantaged in regard to Bottas, Japan being a case in point.
For the purposes of this thread does it actually matter if we have a strict definition if not. I assume the OP just picked the drivers he personally thought best fitted the description.
Maybe it's the wording that's just wrong then?

It's a list of none WDC drivers that raced alongside WDC's, some past some future ones, other drivers could also be included like say Vandoorne, Piquet Jnr etc, for me there's not really a clear definition.
Exactly so why be so pedantic about something like this? It's a list of drivers who have largely shared similar circumstances but we all know what is meant by describing them as "number twos"

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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by F1 Racer »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote: Like I've said before when was either Webber or Trulli treated like a #2 driver?

The definitions seem quite murky to me, there are the definite ones like Irvine, Barrichello, Massa and Kimi but some others are less defined, even last season Hamilton on occasion I would say got disadvantaged in regard to Bottas, Japan being a case in point.
For the purposes of this thread does it actually matter if we have a strict definition if not. I assume the OP just picked the drivers he personally thought best fitted the description.
Maybe it's the wording that's just wrong then?

It's a list of none WDC drivers that raced alongside WDC's, some past some future ones, other drivers could also be included like say Vandoorne, Piquet Jnr etc, for me there's not really a clear definition.
Exactly so why be so pedantic about something like this? It's a list of drivers who have largely shared similar circumstances but we all know what is meant by describing them as "number twos"
Because we are hoping that there is a clear definition out there. Just because we aren't aware of something, that doesn't mean that we wouldn't hope that it exists somehow and someone informed could tell us about it, or if it doesn't exist, it can perhaps be better defined so that it does exist and we all know going forward?

Massa was within a whisker of the 2008 WDC and to many, drove like a champion that year, so he should be excluded from this list via the WDC criteria as he showed he had the ability in him to win one in his earlier days. He lost out more than Hamilton due to Crashgate in Singapore 2008 too, so he was very unlucky and 2008 was very much a 'Sterling Moss' type of season for him really.

Kimi needed Massa to help him to his crown in 2007 and showed some flashes of speed in his early days, but he drove like a number two driver for most of the second half of his career and he made Vettel look fantastic in comparison. Is Kimi not a number two driver?

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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by Exediron »

F1 Racer wrote:Kimi needed Massa to help him to his crown in 2007 and showed some flashes of speed in his early days, but he drove like a number two driver for most of the second half of his career and he made Vettel look fantastic in comparison. Is Kimi not a number two driver?
Both Massa and Kimi were number twos at the end of their Ferrari tenures -- Massa to Alonso, and Kimi to Vettel (2014 is debatable). They were given clear second status in terms of priority and strategy, making them number twos.

In contrast, Button or Rosberg were never given second grade status: both received the full attention of the team even if they were currently losing to their teammates. That's the difference between simply the second driver and a number two driver. With the number two, the team has already decided who will be first and who will be second before they even start racing.

Charles Leclerc would not count in my opinion, because although he started the season as a number two he finished it equal status. Ricciardo also never counted for me, since although I think Red Bull were more behind Max in 2018 I don't think there was any tangible expression of that preference.
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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by F1 Racer »

Exediron wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:Kimi needed Massa to help him to his crown in 2007 and showed some flashes of speed in his early days, but he drove like a number two driver for most of the second half of his career and he made Vettel look fantastic in comparison. Is Kimi not a number two driver?
Both Massa and Kimi were number twos at the end of their Ferrari tenures -- Massa to Alonso, and Kimi to Vettel (2014 is debatable). They were given clear second status in terms of priority and strategy, making them number twos.

In contrast, Button or Rosberg were never given second grade status: both received the full attention of the team even if they were currently losing to their teammates. That's the difference between simply the second driver and a number two driver. With the number two, the team has already decided who will be first and who will be second before they even start racing.

Charles Leclerc would not count in my opinion, because although he started the season as a number two he finished it equal status. Ricciardo also never counted for me, since although I think Red Bull were more behind Max in 2018 I don't think there was any tangible expression of that preference.
Yeah, but Kimi won a WDC so apparently he isn't a 'number two' driver? I mean he isn't in the opening post as an option to rank.

Coulthard was never designated as a number two driver, (save for when he was a rookie in 1994 and first coming into the sport). Coulthard had the opportunities and equipment available to him to be WDC in 1995, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001 and 2003 but for one reason or another he couldn't make it happen due to not being quick enough, having bad luck and making mistakes at crucial moments. None of these failed WDC attempts were because he was an official number two driver in a supporting role though, he was allowed to go and win those WDCs, (whereas Barrichello wasn't for 2000 to 2005 for example).

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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote: Like I've said before when was either Webber or Trulli treated like a #2 driver?

The definitions seem quite murky to me, there are the definite ones like Irvine, Barrichello, Massa and Kimi but some others are less defined, even last season Hamilton on occasion I would say got disadvantaged in regard to Bottas, Japan being a case in point.
For the purposes of this thread does it actually matter if we have a strict definition if not. I assume the OP just picked the drivers he personally thought best fitted the description.
Maybe it's the wording that's just wrong then?

It's a list of none WDC drivers that raced alongside WDC's, some past some future ones, other drivers could also be included like say Vandoorne, Piquet Jnr etc, for me there's not really a clear definition.
Exactly so why be so pedantic about something like this? It's a list of drivers who have largely shared similar circumstances but we all know what is meant by describing them as "number twos"
Because we are hoping that there is a clear definition out there. Just because we aren't aware of something, that doesn't mean that we wouldn't hope that it exists somehow and someone informed could tell us about it, or if it doesn't exist, it can perhaps be better defined so that it does exist and we all know going forward?

Massa was within a whisker of the 2008 WDC and to many, drove like a champion that year, so he should be excluded from this list via the WDC criteria as he showed he had the ability in him to win one in his earlier days. He lost out more than Hamilton due to Crashgate in Singapore 2008 too, so he was very unlucky and 2008 was very much a 'Sterling Moss' type of season for him really.

Kimi needed Massa to help him to his crown in 2007 and showed some flashes of speed in his early days, but he drove like a number two driver for most of the second half of his career and he made Vettel look fantastic in comparison. Is Kimi not a number two driver?
But Massa absolutely was a number 2 for many years. I don't see how that can be denied. And what WDC criteria? He didn't win one. Most of the drivers on that list were good enough to win a WDC in the right circumstances. Irvine is second from bottom and he got almost as close as Massa and even spent the first 1/3 of that season as a number 2.

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Re: Rank the number twos

Post by F1 Racer »

mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote: Maybe it's the wording that's just wrong then?

It's a list of none WDC drivers that raced alongside WDC's, some past some future ones, other drivers could also be included like say Vandoorne, Piquet Jnr etc, for me there's not really a clear definition.
Exactly so why be so pedantic about something like this? It's a list of drivers who have largely shared similar circumstances but we all know what is meant by describing them as "number twos"
Because we are hoping that there is a clear definition out there. Just because we aren't aware of something, that doesn't mean that we wouldn't hope that it exists somehow and someone informed could tell us about it, or if it doesn't exist, it can perhaps be better defined so that it does exist and we all know going forward?

Massa was within a whisker of the 2008 WDC and to many, drove like a champion that year, so he should be excluded from this list via the WDC criteria as he showed he had the ability in him to win one in his earlier days. He lost out more than Hamilton due to Crashgate in Singapore 2008 too, so he was very unlucky and 2008 was very much a 'Sterling Moss' type of season for him really.

Kimi needed Massa to help him to his crown in 2007 and showed some flashes of speed in his early days, but he drove like a number two driver for most of the second half of his career and he made Vettel look fantastic in comparison. Is Kimi not a number two driver?
But Massa absolutely was a number 2 for many years. I don't see how that can be denied. And what WDC criteria? He didn't win one. Most of the drivers on that list were good enough to win a WDC in the right circumstances. Irvine is second from bottom and he got almost as close as Massa and even spent the first 1/3 of that season as a number 2.
Exactly.

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