2019 without the winning cars

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Tufty
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2019 without the winning cars

Post by Tufty »

Out of curiosity, I decided to throw together a spreadsheet of results if Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull had all been disqualified from the championship after Abu Dhabi (rather than not entering, since that may have changed the way other cars raced).

The big thing I expected to see was the battle between Renault and McLaren magnified. In reality, what was seen was a little more different than I'd expected.

The drivers' championship was a bit embarrassing for the bottom 4 drivers (out of 15) since they were beaten by a pair of part-time racers in Gasly and Albon. But the front is where it gets really surprising for those who don't rate Perez.

1: SAI (292) 6 WINS
2: PER (242) 4 WINS
3: NOR (226) 3 WINS
4: RIC (202) 4 WINS
5: KVY (177) 1 WIN
6: HUL (177) 0 WINS
7: RAI (173) 0 WINS
8: STR (137) 0 WINS
9: MAG (113) 2 WINS
10: GAS (98) 1 WIN
11: ALB (98) 0 WINS
12: GIO (87) 0 WINS
13: GRO (69) 0 WINS
14: RUS (21) 0 WINS
15: KUB (9) 0 WINS

What this says to me is that in his rookie year, Norris has achieved against Sainz about what Bottas did in 2017/18 against Hamilton. The occasional win but nothing that could rival his teammate. It also says that Perez put on a brilliant show in a car that often wasn't ideally suited to the tracks it raced on, and that Stroll (surprise, surprise) is taking up a seat he doesn't deserve. Haas probably shouldn't have retained Grosjean, likewise Alfa with Giovinazzi. Toro Rosso scored more with the combined Gasly/Albon car than with Kvyat, but both cars scored a win. Going into 2020 they probably have the most balanced driver pairing, although this does make me a little concerned about Albon. Williams is still impossible to assess, but we can more clearly see the resounding defeat Kubica suffered over the year, despite him outscoring Russell in Germany to take the only real point of the year for the team.

Moving to the constructors' championship, the surprise about Perez is repeated here. But for me what really stands out is that behind the champions, just 6 points split 2nd to 4th, and 2nd and 3rd are only split by their number of 2nd place finishes.

1: McLaren (518) 9 wins
2: Renault (379) 4 wins (4 2nd places)
3: Racing Point (379) 4 wins (3 2nd places)
4: Toro Rosso (373) 2 wins
5: Alfa Romeo (260) 0 wins
6: Haas (182) 2 wins
7: Williams (30) 0 wins

Again, this shows how much Haas lost out on with Grosjean as a driver. Magnussen took both wins for the team, 2 more than Alfa Romeo, but the latter's consistency - especially thanks to Raikkonen - kept Alfa ahead of Haas. McLaren actually dominated the midfield battle, with Renault facing far stiffer competition from Racing Point than I'd expected. Renault would only have been 3rd if Stroll had been just a tiny fraction closer to Perez's performance. Toro Rosso also deserve credit for staying so close to the top 3 given their mid-season driver change. Gasly may not have liked being demoted but it doesn't show in the points. It may be worth pointing out that the average score per race was slightly higher (18.6 compared to 17) after the summer break, despite Kvyat's average dropping from about 8.5 points per race to 5.9.

This was mostly just an exercise in curiosity but it does show some interesting results.
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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by mikeyg123 »

Very interesting. Not surprisingly Perez well over performing yet again hasn't surprised me. Neither has the fact he's received almost no credit for it.

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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by Covalent »

Very interesting, thanks.
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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by mikeyg123 »

I followed the Formula B championship through the year and from memory Sainz won it at the same race as Lewis Hamilton won the proper version :lol:

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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Tufty wrote:Out of curiosity, I decided to throw together a spreadsheet of results if Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull had all been disqualified from the championship after Abu Dhabi (rather than not entering, since that may have changed the way other cars raced).

The big thing I expected to see was the battle between Renault and McLaren magnified. In reality, what was seen was a little more different than I'd expected.

The drivers' championship was a bit embarrassing for the bottom 4 drivers (out of 15) since they were beaten by a pair of part-time racers in Gasly and Albon. But the front is where it gets really surprising for those who don't rate Perez.

1: SAI (292) 6 WINS
2: PER (242) 4 WINS
3: NOR (226) 3 WINS
4: RIC (202) 4 WINS
5: KVY (177) 1 WIN
6: HUL (177) 0 WINS
7: RAI (173) 0 WINS
8: STR (137) 0 WINS
9: MAG (113) 2 WINS
10: GAS (98) 1 WIN
11: ALB (98) 0 WINS
12: GIO (87) 0 WINS
13: GRO (69) 0 WINS
14: RUS (21) 0 WINS
15: KUB (9) 0 WINS

What this says to me is that in his rookie year, Norris has achieved against Sainz about what Bottas did in 2017/18 against Hamilton. The occasional win but nothing that could rival his teammate. It also says that Perez put on a brilliant show in a car that often wasn't ideally suited to the tracks it raced on, and that Stroll (surprise, surprise) is taking up a seat he doesn't deserve. Haas probably shouldn't have retained Grosjean, likewise Alfa with Giovinazzi. Toro Rosso scored more with the combined Gasly/Albon car than with Kvyat, but both cars scored a win. Going into 2020 they probably have the most balanced driver pairing, although this does make me a little concerned about Albon. Williams is still impossible to assess, but we can more clearly see the resounding defeat Kubica suffered over the year, despite him outscoring Russell in Germany to take the only real point of the year for the team.

Moving to the constructors' championship, the surprise about Perez is repeated here. But for me what really stands out is that behind the champions, just 6 points split 2nd to 4th, and 2nd and 3rd are only split by their number of 2nd place finishes.

1: McLaren (518) 9 wins
2: Renault (379) 4 wins (4 2nd places)
3: Racing Point (379) 4 wins (3 2nd places)
4: Toro Rosso (373) 2 wins
5: Alfa Romeo (260) 0 wins
6: Haas (182) 2 wins
7: Williams (30) 0 wins

Again, this shows how much Haas lost out on with Grosjean as a driver. Magnussen took both wins for the team
, 2 more than Alfa Romeo, but the latter's consistency - especially thanks to Raikkonen - kept Alfa ahead of Haas. McLaren actually dominated the midfield battle, with Renault facing far stiffer competition from Racing Point than I'd expected. Renault would only have been 3rd if Stroll had been just a tiny fraction closer to Perez's performance. Toro Rosso also deserve credit for staying so close to the top 3 given their mid-season driver change. Gasly may not have liked being demoted but it doesn't show in the points. It may be worth pointing out that the average score per race was slightly higher (18.6 compared to 17) after the summer break, despite Kvyat's average dropping from about 8.5 points per race to 5.9.

This was mostly just an exercise in curiosity but it does show some interesting results.

I think you are being too harsh on Grosjean as many seem to be. Magnussen really hasn't looked better if you look at the races carefully and factor in bad luck of both drivers. Just add Brazil for Grosjean without his issue and he likely will have finished 4th, which would tie him with magnussen in the real championship points. And that is still with Grosjean having 7 retirements compared to 3 for Magnussen. Grosjean has had by far the worst luck of any driver this season. If Hass look at the performance of both and had already retained magnussen, given Grosjean wasn't looking that bad in comparison and he'd been with the team ever since they came in to F1, it made sense for them to keep him.

If Grosjean had had the same number of retirements as Magnussen, he would easily have come out on top points wise this year. His pit crew ruined his race in Australia - the same way as they did the year before. The pit stop timing messed his race up a bit anyway. If they had got it right and not made a mistake with his wheel, he will have been P7 or possibly P6. So even with this result, he still would have likely beaten Magnussen in the championship despite still having double the number of retirements. Doing your calculations then would pretty much undo Grosjean's results from looking this embarrassing. Bad luck is the main reason for it, not bad performance. Though I myself think neither driver been a good this year.

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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by jimmyj »

Very interesting. Thanks for doing this.

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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by pokerman »

F1 is broken McLaren were far too dominant, even the rookie finished 3rd. :)
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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by Tufty »

pokerman wrote:F1 is broken McLaren were far too dominant, even the rookie finished 3rd. :)
That surprised me too, never thought they would turn out THAT far ahead. I expected the 2-3-4 sort of gaps between McLaren and Renault.
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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by Tufty »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:I think you are being too harsh on Grosjean as many seem to be. Magnussen really hasn't looked better if you look at the races carefully and factor in bad luck of both drivers. Just add Brazil for Grosjean without his issue and he likely will have finished 4th, which would tie him with magnussen in the real championship points. And that is still with Grosjean having 7 retirements compared to 3 for Magnussen. Grosjean has had by far the worst luck of any driver this season. If Hass look at the performance of both and had already retained magnussen, given Grosjean wasn't looking that bad in comparison and he'd been with the team ever since they came in to F1, it made sense for them to keep him.

If Grosjean had had the same number of retirements as Magnussen, he would easily have come out on top points wise this year. His pit crew ruined his race in Australia - the same way as they did the year before. The pit stop timing messed his race up a bit anyway. If they had got it right and not made a mistake with his wheel, he will have been P7 or possibly P6. So even with this result, he still would have likely beaten Magnussen in the championship despite still having double the number of retirements. Doing your calculations then would pretty much undo Grosjean's results from looking this embarrassing. Bad luck is the main reason for it, not bad performance. Though I myself think neither driver been a good this year.
Your last sentence I agree with totally. I wouldn't have blamed Haas if they'd swapped both drivers for Hulkenberg and Kubica next year. Although I do believe Kubica would be a worse option. But the problem is both current drivers have contributed to their retirements more than is acceptable, regardless of performance. The car simply wasn't up to scratch this year.

After Australia, where they could have taken a 6/7 finish, they didn't score again until their 7/10 in Spain. Grosjean's point in Monaco - gifted by Leclerc having his worst race of the year - was the last time they scored points in a race, barring the chaos of Germany, before summer - Silverstone being a particularly low point. Then another couple of points came in Russia, and that's it. Only 5 races where a Haas scored, 4-3 to Magnussen in terms of top 10 finishes. This thread may exaggerate the gap due to the extra DNFs when Magnussen failed to score, but it also shows which driver tended to bring the car home.

Eliminate Grosjean's retirements and while it's 9-5 in finishes to Grosjean, Magnussen outscored him 10-8. That's without Australia or Russia - and without removing Magnussen's retirements, though those wouldn't change the points. Honestly, what this tells me is ditching Grosjean for Hulkenberg, then seeing out Magnussen's contract to replace him in 2021, is probably the best option. But Magnussen definitely performed better when it counted.
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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

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mikeyg123 wrote:Very interesting. Not surprisingly Perez well over performing yet again hasn't surprised me. Neither has the fact he's received almost no credit for it.
Checo is so underrated that at some comment sections on other F1 websites, Checo is regarded as pay driver with a few lucky podiums & some even call him average. He always outperforms the car.
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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by pokerman »

UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Very interesting. Not surprisingly Perez well over performing yet again hasn't surprised me. Neither has the fact he's received almost no credit for it.
Checo is so underrated that at some comment sections on other F1 websites, Checo is regarded as pay driver with a few lucky podiums & some even call him average. He always outperforms the car.
I guess you're going to see him as being underrated if people aren't believing that he always out performs his car?
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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by UnlikeUday »

pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Very interesting. Not surprisingly Perez well over performing yet again hasn't surprised me. Neither has the fact he's received almost no credit for it.
Checo is so underrated that at some comment sections on other F1 websites, Checo is regarded as pay driver with a few lucky podiums & some even call him average. He always outperforms the car.
I guess you're going to see him as being underrated if people aren't believing that he always out performs his car?
You could say that. The RP car for most of the year was 7th fastest (team). He used his experience & skill to still finish in the top 10 WDC standings. And the stand out fact is this year wasn't 1 of Checo's best as this year' RP was 1 of their weakest cars in the last few years.
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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Very interesting. Not surprisingly Perez well over performing yet again hasn't surprised me. Neither has the fact he's received almost no credit for it.
Checo is so underrated that at some comment sections on other F1 websites, Checo is regarded as pay driver with a few lucky podiums & some even call him average. He always outperforms the car.
That is a bit of a stretch. The first half of this season, Stroll finished in the points more often than Perez. He got more in the first 11 races mainly because of Germany, but who binned it there? .... Perez. Basically, in the first half of this season, Perez was only slightly better than Stroll performance wise, which really isn't good. It was in the remaining 9 races that he was excellent in vertually every race. Finished in the points 8 times and retired in the other. But this is not a consistent season for him at all. The first half was underwhelming and with Storll as his comparison, poor.

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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Very interesting. Not surprisingly Perez well over performing yet again hasn't surprised me. Neither has the fact he's received almost no credit for it.
Checo is so underrated that at some comment sections on other F1 websites, Checo is regarded as pay driver with a few lucky podiums & some even call him average. He always outperforms the car.
That is a bit of a stretch. The first half of this season, Stroll finished in the points more often than Perez. He got more in the first 11 races mainly because of Germany, but who binned it there? .... Perez. Basically, in the first half of this season, Perez was only slightly better than Stroll performance wise, which really isn't good. It was in the remaining 9 races that he was excellent in vertually every race. Finished in the points 8 times and retired in the other. But this is not a consistent season for him at all. The first half was underwhelming and with Storll as his comparison, poor.
Factually inaccurate. They both scored 3 times in the first half of the season. Perez scoring more points than Stroll and beat Stroll in races 6/3. And that was his bad half of the season. He out qualified Stroll every single race in the first half of the season. How can you say he was only slightly better?

He definitely finished higher in the championship than the car should allow so how can you argue he didn't outperform the car?

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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Very interesting. Not surprisingly Perez well over performing yet again hasn't surprised me. Neither has the fact he's received almost no credit for it.
Checo is so underrated that at some comment sections on other F1 websites, Checo is regarded as pay driver with a few lucky podiums & some even call him average. He always outperforms the car.
That is a bit of a stretch. The first half of this season, Stroll finished in the points more often than Perez. He got more in the first 11 races mainly because of Germany, but who binned it there? .... Perez. Basically, in the first half of this season, Perez was only slightly better than Stroll performance wise, which really isn't good. It was in the remaining 9 races that he was excellent in vertually every race. Finished in the points 8 times and retired in the other. But this is not a consistent season for him at all. The first half was underwhelming and with Storll as his comparison, poor.
Factually inaccurate. They both scored 3 times in the first half of the season. Perez scoring more points than Stroll and beat Stroll in races 6/3. And that was his bad half of the season. He out qualified Stroll every single race in the first half of the season. How can you say he was only slightly better?

He definitely finished higher in the championship than the car should allow so how can you argue he didn't outperform the car?
You are not correct, so please don't try to correct me with this... A couple of things are highlighted in bold.

Stroll finished in the points 4 times in the first half.

Australia, he finished 9th and got 2.
Azerbaijan, he finished 9th and got 2.
Canada, he finished 9th and got 2.
Germany he finished 4th and got 12.

4 points finished and 18 points.

Perez:

Bahrain, he finished 10th and got 1.
China, he finished 8th and got 4
Azerbaijan, he finished 6th and got 8.

3 points finishes and 13 points.




My point is that he most certainly isn't always outperforming the car. The 2nd half of the season, I think he was excellent and dominated Stroll and was in the mix with the others. But I still think he wasn't a great deal better than Stroll in the first half. I never said or implied he wasn't "outperforming the car" later on in the season. Based on the 2nd half alone, I would not disagree with him being ranked as one of the best on the grid. In the first half, he was far better on Saturdays than Stroll yes, but Stroll was the one in the right place at the right time that got him more points.

I don't know what made you think Perez had more points in the first half or how you could miss that Stroll had scored in more races than him.

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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by UnlikeUday »

A bit of a graphic stat on Checo & Stroll:

Image
Source - imgur
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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Very interesting. Not surprisingly Perez well over performing yet again hasn't surprised me. Neither has the fact he's received almost no credit for it.
Checo is so underrated that at some comment sections on other F1 websites, Checo is regarded as pay driver with a few lucky podiums & some even call him average. He always outperforms the car.
That is a bit of a stretch. The first half of this season, Stroll finished in the points more often than Perez. He got more in the first 11 races mainly because of Germany, but who binned it there? .... Perez. Basically, in the first half of this season, Perez was only slightly better than Stroll performance wise, which really isn't good. It was in the remaining 9 races that he was excellent in vertually every race. Finished in the points 8 times and retired in the other. But this is not a consistent season for him at all. The first half was underwhelming and with Storll as his comparison, poor.
Factually inaccurate. They both scored 3 times in the first half of the season. Perez scoring more points than Stroll and beat Stroll in races 6/3. And that was his bad half of the season. He out qualified Stroll every single race in the first half of the season. How can you say he was only slightly better?

He definitely finished higher in the championship than the car should allow so how can you argue he didn't outperform the car?
You are not correct, so please don't try to correct me with this... A couple of things are highlighted in bold.

Stroll finished in the points 4 times in the first half.

Australia, he finished 9th and got 2.
Azerbaijan, he finished 9th and got 2.
Canada, he finished 9th and got 2.
Germany he finished 4th and got 12.

4 points finished and 18 points.

Perez:

Bahrain, he finished 10th and got 1.
China, he finished 8th and got 4
Azerbaijan, he finished 6th and got 8.

3 points finishes and 13 points.




My point is that he most certainly isn't always outperforming the car. The 2nd half of the season, I think he was excellent and dominated Stroll and was in the mix with the others. But I still think he wasn't a great deal better than Stroll in the first half. I never said or implied he wasn't "outperforming the car" later on in the season. Based on the 2nd half alone, I would not disagree with him being ranked as one of the best on the grid. In the first half, he was far better on Saturdays than Stroll yes, but Stroll was the one in the right place at the right time that got him more points.

I don't know what made you think Perez had more points in the first half or how you could miss that Stroll had scored in more races than him.
Why are you counting Germany in the first half of the season? It wasn't.

That is an indisputable fact.

I mean, if you really want to get pedantic then I suppose you could say the half way point of the season was the middle of the German GP. Obviously before any points were handed out.

Why are you trying to distort the figures?

At the half way point of the season Perez had 13 points. Stroll had less than half with 6. Both had scored 3 times.

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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by Invade »

Ye before the summer break Perez wasn't particularly noteworthy. I'm also just generally still slightly put off by his overall attitude - he remains tarnished.

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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by tootsie323 »

That depends on whether you split the season equally by races or by the summer break.
Looking much more broadly, Perez has generally performed well, if he can be a little aggressive. I wouldn't be disappointed if he were to be considered for one of the top teams - though I suspect that the time has passed in that sense.
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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote: Checo is so underrated that at some comment sections on other F1 websites, Checo is regarded as pay driver with a few lucky podiums & some even call him average. He always outperforms the car.
That is a bit of a stretch. The first half of this season, Stroll finished in the points more often than Perez. He got more in the first 11 races mainly because of Germany, but who binned it there? .... Perez. Basically, in the first half of this season, Perez was only slightly better than Stroll performance wise, which really isn't good. It was in the remaining 9 races that he was excellent in vertually every race. Finished in the points 8 times and retired in the other. But this is not a consistent season for him at all. The first half was underwhelming and with Storll as his comparison, poor.
Factually inaccurate. They both scored 3 times in the first half of the season. Perez scoring more points than Stroll and beat Stroll in races 6/3. And that was his bad half of the season. He out qualified Stroll every single race in the first half of the season. How can you say he was only slightly better?

He definitely finished higher in the championship than the car should allow so how can you argue he didn't outperform the car?
You are not correct, so please don't try to correct me with this... A couple of things are highlighted in bold.

Stroll finished in the points 4 times in the first half.

Australia, he finished 9th and got 2.
Azerbaijan, he finished 9th and got 2.
Canada, he finished 9th and got 2.
Germany he finished 4th and got 12.

4 points finished and 18 points.

Perez:

Bahrain, he finished 10th and got 1.
China, he finished 8th and got 4
Azerbaijan, he finished 6th and got 8.

3 points finishes and 13 points.




My point is that he most certainly isn't always outperforming the car. The 2nd half of the season, I think he was excellent and dominated Stroll and was in the mix with the others. But I still think he wasn't a great deal better than Stroll in the first half. I never said or implied he wasn't "outperforming the car" later on in the season. Based on the 2nd half alone, I would not disagree with him being ranked as one of the best on the grid. In the first half, he was far better on Saturdays than Stroll yes, but Stroll was the one in the right place at the right time that got him more points.

I don't know what made you think Perez had more points in the first half or how you could miss that Stroll had scored in more races than him.
Why are you counting Germany in the first half of the season? It wasn't.

That is an indisputable fact.

I mean, if you really want to get pedantic then I suppose you could say the half way point of the season was the middle of the German GP. Obviously before any points were handed out.

Why are you trying to distort the figures?

At the half way point of the season Perez had 13 points. Stroll had less than half with 6. Both had scored 3 times.

I suppose very literally it is a fact, but I'm pretty sure we refer the summer break as the mid season break. Recefans.net does it's mid season driver rankings at this stage. Although Perez here is rated 11th and Stroll 19th, I still don't think the performance gap counting the results is that massive averaged out. And given that is in fact further into the season, in some aspects, that makes it even worse for Perez. 12 races into the season and Stroll had more points than him.

Qualifying and a lot of the races he didn't score in were still pretty poor from Stroll in these 12 races, but he maximized it in one race when Perez binned it which plays a pretty big swing in my comparison admittedly. Guess I think differently to others, but I give Stroll a lot of credit for doing a great job when given an opportunity. Perez usually does this but failed badly this time.
The fact that if we are being literal about it, over half the season has gone and Stroll has done what I mentioned, that is why I feel Perez just hasn't been dramatically better than Stroll like he was in the last 9 races. He certainly was better in the opening 12 races, but not by a massive margin at this stage IMO. That is my point about being against the comment implying he is always out performing the car.


I am not going to deny that the general performance gap has been pretty huge. Although average time gap wise, qualifying is nowhere near as bad as many may think. 0.13 seconds according to racefans.net and the team mate comparisons. This gap was 0.33 at the summer break, meaning that Stroll was actually getting a little closer in the 2nd half.
I think possibly actually reflects maybe both could be doing better in qualifying? Especially as I certainly don't think Stroll is good at qualifying. If the time gaps are this close, I feel Perez maybe could have managed yet more.


What it comes down to is that I think Perez was excellent where he had the run of races where he finished in the points in 8/9 races, one of which he retired in through no fault of his own. The rest before that, he looked pretty underwhelming given his reputation and given Stroll was his team mate the whole season, I think that possibly gives a bit of an unrepresentative view on his season anyway.

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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
That is a bit of a stretch. The first half of this season, Stroll finished in the points more often than Perez. He got more in the first 11 races mainly because of Germany, but who binned it there? .... Perez. Basically, in the first half of this season, Perez was only slightly better than Stroll performance wise, which really isn't good. It was in the remaining 9 races that he was excellent in vertually every race. Finished in the points 8 times and retired in the other. But this is not a consistent season for him at all. The first half was underwhelming and with Storll as his comparison, poor.
Factually inaccurate. They both scored 3 times in the first half of the season. Perez scoring more points than Stroll and beat Stroll in races 6/3. And that was his bad half of the season. He out qualified Stroll every single race in the first half of the season. How can you say he was only slightly better?

He definitely finished higher in the championship than the car should allow so how can you argue he didn't outperform the car?
You are not correct, so please don't try to correct me with this... A couple of things are highlighted in bold.

Stroll finished in the points 4 times in the first half.

Australia, he finished 9th and got 2.
Azerbaijan, he finished 9th and got 2.
Canada, he finished 9th and got 2.
Germany he finished 4th and got 12.

4 points finished and 18 points.

Perez:

Bahrain, he finished 10th and got 1.
China, he finished 8th and got 4
Azerbaijan, he finished 6th and got 8.

3 points finishes and 13 points.




My point is that he most certainly isn't always outperforming the car. The 2nd half of the season, I think he was excellent and dominated Stroll and was in the mix with the others. But I still think he wasn't a great deal better than Stroll in the first half. I never said or implied he wasn't "outperforming the car" later on in the season. Based on the 2nd half alone, I would not disagree with him being ranked as one of the best on the grid. In the first half, he was far better on Saturdays than Stroll yes, but Stroll was the one in the right place at the right time that got him more points.

I don't know what made you think Perez had more points in the first half or how you could miss that Stroll had scored in more races than him.
Why are you counting Germany in the first half of the season? It wasn't.

That is an indisputable fact.

I mean, if you really want to get pedantic then I suppose you could say the half way point of the season was the middle of the German GP. Obviously before any points were handed out.

Why are you trying to distort the figures?

At the half way point of the season Perez had 13 points. Stroll had less than half with 6. Both had scored 3 times.

I suppose very literally it is a fact, but I'm pretty sure we refer the summer break as the mid season break. Recefans.net does it's mid season driver rankings at this stage. Although Perez here is rated 11th and Stroll 19th, I still don't think the performance gap counting the results is that massive averaged out. And given that is in fact further into the season, in some aspects, that makes it even worse for Perez. 12 races into the season and Stroll had more points than him.

Qualifying and a lot of the races he didn't score in were still pretty poor from Stroll in these 12 races, but he maximized it in one race when Perez binned it which plays a pretty big swing in my comparison admittedly. Guess I think differently to others, but I give Stroll a lot of credit for doing a great job when given an opportunity. Perez usually does this but failed badly this time.
The fact that if we are being literal about it, over half the season has gone and Stroll has done what I mentioned, that is why I feel Perez just hasn't been dramatically better than Stroll like he was in the last 9 races. He certainly was better in the opening 12 races, but not by a massive margin at this stage IMO. That is my point about being against the comment implying he is always out performing the car.


I am not going to deny that the general performance gap has been pretty huge. Although average time gap wise, qualifying is nowhere near as bad as many may think. 0.13 seconds according to racefans.net and the team mate comparisons. This gap was 0.33 at the summer break, meaning that Stroll was actually getting a little closer in the 2nd half.
I think possibly actually reflects maybe both could be doing better in qualifying? Especially as I certainly don't think Stroll is good at qualifying. If the time gaps are this close, I feel Perez maybe could have managed yet more.


What it comes down to is that I think Perez was excellent where he had the run of races where he finished in the points in 8/9 races, one of which he retired in through no fault of his own. The rest before that, he looked pretty underwhelming given his reputation and given Stroll was his team mate the whole season, I think that possibly gives a bit of an unrepresentative view on his season anyway.
3 tenths in modern F1 is pretty big. There are people who won't believe Verstappen being 5 tenths ahead of Albon can't be genuine.

I think it's much more that in the first half of the season the Racing Point was further back so points were much harder to come by. With neither able to score many points Stroll's freak result in Germany caused a big distortion. It's not like it was even a good race for Stroll either. He trundled round at the back for the whole race before taking the gamble on tyres. He had a good last 10 laps but the fact Kvyat did the exact same thing shows that the good result wasn't just down to inspirational driving. It was repeatable by another below average driver.

You can break down Stroll's other points finishes as well. Australia he was behind Perez got ahead on strategy and nobody could overtake. Baku he finished 9th Perez 6th 27 seconds up the road. Canada was good for Stroll as far as I recall.

Basically Perez spent the whole season smashing Stroll. Up to the summer break the Racing Point just wasn't quite good enough to get into the points regularly.

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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by pokerman »

UnlikeUday wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Very interesting. Not surprisingly Perez well over performing yet again hasn't surprised me. Neither has the fact he's received almost no credit for it.
Checo is so underrated that at some comment sections on other F1 websites, Checo is regarded as pay driver with a few lucky podiums & some even call him average. He always outperforms the car.
I guess you're going to see him as being underrated if people aren't believing that he always out performs his car?
You could say that. The RP car for most of the year was 7th fastest (team). He used his experience & skill to still finish in the top 10 WDC standings. And the stand out fact is this year wasn't 1 of Checo's best as this year' RP was 1 of their weakest cars in the last few years.
I really wouldn't want to dispute that just the statement that he always out performs the car unless you mean over the season but then again in the main you are just comparing him against other midfield drivers.
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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Is Hulkenberg still podium less with this system? (I assume, surely not...)

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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by Tufty »

Alienturnedhuman wrote: Is Hulkenberg still podium less with this system? (I assume, surely not...)
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I may go back through previous years and do the same calculations, see what I can find.
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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Very interesting. Not surprisingly Perez well over performing yet again hasn't surprised me. Neither has the fact he's received almost no credit for it.
Checo is so underrated that at some comment sections on other F1 websites, Checo is regarded as pay driver with a few lucky podiums & some even call him average. He always outperforms the car.
I guess you're going to see him as being underrated if people aren't believing that he always out performs his car?
You could say that. The RP car for most of the year was 7th fastest (team). He used his experience & skill to still finish in the top 10 WDC standings. And the stand out fact is this year wasn't 1 of Checo's best as this year' RP was 1 of their weakest cars in the last few years.
I really wouldn't want to dispute that just the statement that he always out performs the car unless you mean over the season but then again in the main you are just comparing him against other midfield drivers.
To a point but is Ricciardo a midfield driver?

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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by KingVoid »

For some reason, Perez has always been underrated and Hulkenberg has always been overrated. This has been the case since at least 2012, when people claimed that Hulkenberg deserved the McLaren seat more than Perez did, despite Perez’s three podiums that season.

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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

Midfield battle was great. RP really improved their car where as AR slipped down. Renault I do not think had a bad car but for some reason they did not get good results. STR also had a great year.
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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote: Checo is so underrated that at some comment sections on other F1 websites, Checo is regarded as pay driver with a few lucky podiums & some even call him average. He always outperforms the car.
I guess you're going to see him as being underrated if people aren't believing that he always out performs his car?
You could say that. The RP car for most of the year was 7th fastest (team). He used his experience & skill to still finish in the top 10 WDC standings. And the stand out fact is this year wasn't 1 of Checo's best as this year' RP was 1 of their weakest cars in the last few years.
I really wouldn't want to dispute that just the statement that he always out performs the car unless you mean over the season but then again in the main you are just comparing him against other midfield drivers.
To a point but is Ricciardo a midfield driver?
Ricciardo's stats against the Hulk were better than Perez's stats against the Hulk and Ricciardo was new to the team so Ricciardo must also have been out performing his car seeing how also he actually finished above Perez in the WDC.

So like I say he maybe out performing other midfield drivers but not exactly Ricciardo and this out performing the car might not stand up to scrutiny against stronger drivers?
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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
pokerman wrote: I guess you're going to see him as being underrated if people aren't believing that he always out performs his car?
You could say that. The RP car for most of the year was 7th fastest (team). He used his experience & skill to still finish in the top 10 WDC standings. And the stand out fact is this year wasn't 1 of Checo's best as this year' RP was 1 of their weakest cars in the last few years.
I really wouldn't want to dispute that just the statement that he always out performs the car unless you mean over the season but then again in the main you are just comparing him against other midfield drivers.
To a point but is Ricciardo a midfield driver?
Ricciardo's stats against the Hulk were better than Perez's stats against the Hulk and Ricciardo was new to the team so Ricciardo must also have been out performing his car seeing how also he actually finished above Perez in the WDC.

So like I say he maybe out performing other midfield drivers but not exactly Ricciardo and this out performing the car might not stand up to scrutiny against stronger drivers?
Well yeah against better drivers he obviously wouldn't stand out. I don't think anyone is arguing Perez is better than Verstappen or Hamilton though.

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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote: You could say that. The RP car for most of the year was 7th fastest (team). He used his experience & skill to still finish in the top 10 WDC standings. And the stand out fact is this year wasn't 1 of Checo's best as this year' RP was 1 of their weakest cars in the last few years.
I really wouldn't want to dispute that just the statement that he always out performs the car unless you mean over the season but then again in the main you are just comparing him against other midfield drivers.
To a point but is Ricciardo a midfield driver?
Ricciardo's stats against the Hulk were better than Perez's stats against the Hulk and Ricciardo was new to the team so Ricciardo must also have been out performing his car seeing how also he actually finished above Perez in the WDC.

So like I say he maybe out performing other midfield drivers but not exactly Ricciardo and this out performing the car might not stand up to scrutiny against stronger drivers?
Well yeah against better drivers he obviously wouldn't stand out. I don't think anyone is arguing Perez is better than Verstappen or Hamilton though.
Fair enough it's just trying to get a balance when someone states that Perez out performs his car every time he sits in it.
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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by UnlikeUday »

From the article below, Checo has gained the most positions during races when compared to any driver in 2019. His average of 3.47 was the best across the field. Stroll, on the other hand, gained 40 positions on Lap one across 2019, the most by any driver. Just shows RP always has been a good race car but not a great qualy car.
https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/19/tel ... 19-season/
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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by pokerman »

UnlikeUday wrote:From the article below, Checo has gained the most positions during races when compared to any driver in 2019. His average of 3.47 was the best across the field. Stroll, on the other hand, gained 40 positions on Lap one across 2019, the most by any driver. Just shows RP always has been a good race car but not a great qualy car.
https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/19/tel ... 19-season/
Well of Stroll it's often said that he gains so many places in the races because of how he under qualifies the car, Perez himself wouldn't be the best of qualifiers coming worse off in 4 of the last 5 years against a combination of the Hulk and Ocon, he beat Ocon the year he was basically still a rookie.
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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:From the article below, Checo has gained the most positions during races when compared to any driver in 2019. His average of 3.47 was the best across the field. Stroll, on the other hand, gained 40 positions on Lap one across 2019, the most by any driver. Just shows RP always has been a good race car but not a great qualy car.
https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/19/tel ... 19-season/
Well of Stroll it's often said that he gains so many places in the races because of how he under qualifies the car, Perez himself wouldn't be the best of qualifiers coming worse off in 4 of the last 5 years against a combination of the Hulk and Ocon, he beat Ocon the year he was basically still a rookie.
Yes I think it's more that Perez and Stroll are much better in races than in qualifying rather than the car.

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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by tootsie323 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:From the article below, Checo has gained the most positions during races when compared to any driver in 2019. His average of 3.47 was the best across the field. Stroll, on the other hand, gained 40 positions on Lap one across 2019, the most by any driver. Just shows RP always has been a good race car but not a great qualy car.
https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/19/tel ... 19-season/
Well of Stroll it's often said that he gains so many places in the races because of how he under qualifies the car, Perez himself wouldn't be the best of qualifiers coming worse off in 4 of the last 5 years against a combination of the Hulk and Ocon, he beat Ocon the year he was basically still a rookie.
Yes I think it's more that Perez and Stroll are much better in races than in qualifying rather than the car.
More specifically to Stroll, he is not a bad racer. Certainly not the best but not the worst in my view. It's his qualifying that really lets him down (he has mentioned this himself). By virtue of qualifying 'out of position' he tends to gain places during the race.
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Re: 2019 without the winning cars

Post by Exediron »

tootsie323 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:From the article below, Checo has gained the most positions during races when compared to any driver in 2019. His average of 3.47 was the best across the field. Stroll, on the other hand, gained 40 positions on Lap one across 2019, the most by any driver. Just shows RP always has been a good race car but not a great qualy car.
https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/19/tel ... 19-season/
Well of Stroll it's often said that he gains so many places in the races because of how he under qualifies the car, Perez himself wouldn't be the best of qualifiers coming worse off in 4 of the last 5 years against a combination of the Hulk and Ocon, he beat Ocon the year he was basically still a rookie.
Yes I think it's more that Perez and Stroll are much better in races than in qualifying rather than the car.
More specifically to Stroll, he is not a bad racer. Certainly not the best but not the worst in my view. It's his qualifying that really lets him down (he has mentioned this himself). By virtue of qualifying 'out of position' he tends to gain places during the race.
I'm honestly not sure that makes any difference on the first lap. First lap is all about racecraft and instinctive positioning of the car. Picking up places throughout the race, sure, that's because your car is faster. But consistently making up places during the chaos at the start is racecraft.
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