Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Ferrari - Would you sign Hamilton

Yes, the potential to maximise points every weekend would outweigh the potential conflict and WDC is priority
24
42%
Yes, better to have him in our car than someone else's
19
33%
No, wouldn't need him.
5
9%
No, just not worth the management
9
16%
 
Total votes: 57

User avatar
Alienturnedhuman
Posts: 3854
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

If Hamilton were to go to Ferrari, he would be taking people with him. The negotiations won't be over his salary, but rather how far Ferrari is prepare to incentivise the technical and managerial staff from Hamilton's Mercedes camp to jump ships.

Siao7
Posts: 8385
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by Siao7 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:If Hamilton were to go to Ferrari, he would be taking people with him. The negotiations won't be over his salary, but rather how far Ferrari is prepare to incentivise the technical and managerial staff from Hamilton's Mercedes camp to jump ships.
That's a good point, I wonder who he would be taking though? Toto would be one guy that surely Ferrari could use

mikeyg123
Posts: 17244
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by mikeyg123 »

Siao7 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:If Hamilton were to go to Ferrari, he would be taking people with him. The negotiations won't be over his salary, but rather how far Ferrari is prepare to incentivise the technical and managerial staff from Hamilton's Mercedes camp to jump ships.
That's a good point, I wonder who he would be taking though? Toto would be one guy that surely Ferrari could use
I think Toto is financially invested in the Merc F1 team. I don't think he'd go anywhere where he couldn't have that kind of arrangement.

Siao7
Posts: 8385
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:If Hamilton were to go to Ferrari, he would be taking people with him. The negotiations won't be over his salary, but rather how far Ferrari is prepare to incentivise the technical and managerial staff from Hamilton's Mercedes camp to jump ships.
That's a good point, I wonder who he would be taking though? Toto would be one guy that surely Ferrari could use
I think Toto is financially invested in the Merc F1 team. I don't think he'd go anywhere where he couldn't have that kind of arrangement.
I know, I was just thinking of how close he is to Lewis and how Ferrari are in desperate need of proper leadership like Toto's.

I guess Bono would be another guy Lewis would be taking if he moved there

mikeyg123
Posts: 17244
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by mikeyg123 »

Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:If Hamilton were to go to Ferrari, he would be taking people with him. The negotiations won't be over his salary, but rather how far Ferrari is prepare to incentivise the technical and managerial staff from Hamilton's Mercedes camp to jump ships.
That's a good point, I wonder who he would be taking though? Toto would be one guy that surely Ferrari could use
I think Toto is financially invested in the Merc F1 team. I don't think he'd go anywhere where he couldn't have that kind of arrangement.
I know, I was just thinking of how close he is to Lewis and how Ferrari are in desperate need of proper leadership like Toto's.

I guess Bono would be another guy Lewis would be taking if he moved there
Bono would be a good one.

shoot999
Posts: 3087
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:23 am

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by shoot999 »

Think there are a number he would want to take, or want to go with him. Obviously Marc Hynes and Angela Cullen from his personal staff. I would have thought James Vowles as they are close friends and Vowles is his partner in crime (along with an unnamed engineer) in all the high adrenaline sports they get up to. Although I could see that being an issue for Ferrari.

Not sure of the others, but their is an inner group within the team that along with Hamilton share the same 'loyalty' tattoo.

User avatar
F1 MERCENARY
Posts: 2359
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:38 pm
Location: Miami, Florida

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:Hamilton is arguably the quickest driver of his generation. That being said, we should not ignore his history, of questioning the team and becoming toxic when faced with a worthy teammate. The top teams are learning that the best driver combination is one star and one sedate and quiet teammate who is capable of picking up the pieces and supporting the number one driver. Mercedes, Ferrari, and Red Bull all have the same problem, in keeping their thoroughbred star in fine form and happy.

All teams and all drivers (in the form of their managers) are in constant touch, making offers and attempting to decide on the best combination. It is not news that Hamilton has been talking to Ferrari, it would be news if he was not.

Leclerc is Ferrari's future, and Hamilton would just mess everything up.

Age is relevant, although Hamilton has many good years ahead. But there will be huge changes coming in 2021, and one must ask the hard question, will Hamilton be able to adapt to what may be a completely new environment?

When Ferrrari signed Schumacher they were very aware that the entire team was a mess. Schumacher brought his excellent leadership skills, and some of the best in the business with him from Benetton. Hamilton definitely has not assembled any talent around him, in fact it appears he makes more enemies than friends.
I don't know where you got any of this from Blinky. First off Hamilton arrived in F1 an adolescent man and immediately took the fight to his much more experienced teammate who just happened to be the reigning 2x World Champion, and he did it superbly and at no point was toxic. Afterwards he was teamed up with Kovalainen, then Button, then he moved to Mercedes to partner Rosberg and if you think back, the issues began when Rosberg was tiddled off that his new teammate was beating him even though he'd been with the team from day one. The one who was perturbed to the point he publicly stated such was Rosberg. And then he made it personal and as I recall he called out his team in saying that they gave Hamilton full support and the team's answer to that was to give him Hamilton's personnel. At Spa Rosberg pulled off the most cold blooded move just to prove a point, which is exactly what he said and when he found himself behind Hamilton yet again, he made the conscious decision to not lift and if it resulted in a collision, oh well, I don't care. Hamilton's response on the radio to his team was simply Nico's hit me. From then on it was an all out war and Hamilton did what he's always done, DRIVE WELL, and came out the victor. Nico was being a sore loser and couldn't handle losing to Hamilton and that led to Rosberg becoming the toxic one in the team, and if you remember Rosberg did some pretty toxic things.

NONE of that can be put on Hamilton. The one thing I agree he did wrong was releasing telemetry images while at McLaren, and even then they were braking, ride height and downforce numbers and nothing that others didn't already know because every team tracks what everyone else is doing and how.

Hamilton has indeed questioned his teams' decisions and he was more often than not 100% correct in doing so, AND unless I missed something… Just about every driver has done so, so to say such a thing as if it's something only he's done is unfair and quite skewed. Alonso famously has digs at his teams when things don't go his way, he blew the whistle on his own team resulting in his own termination, Webber… Not bad for a #2 driver aye?… Vettel… Tough Luck, Multi-21 (and many more), Grosjean, Magnussen, Perez, Ocon, Ricciardo, Verstappen, Raikkonen, Leclerc, Montoya, Massa, Kubica, Prost, Senna, Barrichello… you get the picture.

And since his time with Mercedes, Hamilton has indeed questioned his team on many occasions, and has rarely been wrong and even when he's been right he always says we win as a team and we lose as a team and he puts things behind him and moves forward WITH his team, and he always takes the time to thank the entire team whenever he gets the chance.

The biggest issues he had were when he was younger and most were done or said outside the cockpit.

I'm sure you were a vastly more mature individual at 35 than you were at 20, and today vastly wiser, more intelligent and much more mature than you were when you were 35. I think you're holding onto something that once was without appreciating the individual he's become, and using that as a basis for your argument.

If I'm not mistaken, Leclerc has whined, complained and moaned far more than Hamilton ever did in a season and he publicly questioned his team's integrity. Perhaps Ferrari should have parted ways with him instead of signing him to a 5-year contract.

Personally, I view these professional drivers as human beings who will never be devoid of experiencing emotions and/or reacting to situations in the heat of the moment. And to say these are highly paid professionals who should know better is a weak argument because even the most professional, most mature adults can have moments where they're overcome by emotion and do things they normally wouldn't, and that's ok.

Even though these guys are supremely gifted at their craft, in the end… they're only human and not programmed machines with the ability to do everything in a robotic fashion.


I'd bet you $100 that if Hamilton is signs with Ferrari for 2021 Leclerc will become Rosberg 2.0 and we'd see his long face consistently as Hamilton wins more often and more consistently as he helps Ferrari improve. But even if that does happen many will still call Hamilton toxic or whatever their negative opinion of him is.
Last edited by F1 MERCENARY on Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: LECLERC :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA

User avatar
F1 MERCENARY
Posts: 2359
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:38 pm
Location: Miami, Florida

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

F1 Racer wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote: With previous generations we saw the top guys drive and remain quite competitive well into their 50's and those guys for the most part didn't take fitness seriously. Today however, the drivers keep themselves in peek condition year round and they constantly work on maintaining and even improving reflexes and in the off season and downtime truckloads of cash, but he realizes it all stemmed from racing and he's well aware that the longer he stays on top, the more lucrative opportunities present themselves.
Maybe all the drivers not caring about fitness back in the day is what helped the drivers in their 50's remain competitive.

For example if the difference in fitness between an unfit 30 year old and an unfit 50 year old is smaller than the difference between a fit 30 year old and a fit 50 year old, this would explain now why drivers can't continue to compete at such older ages.
That's most certainly NOT the case. Al Unser Sr was still a great driver in his 50's while beating younger, more fit drivers. Mario Andretti as well, Rick Mears was competitive into his 40's, Michael Schumacher was competitive in his comeback at 42 years old, Fernando Alonso is still one of the top drivers in the world.

And if you take what you said into account, you'd realize that because these guys are all supremely fit, they have an even easier time remaining competitive and
elite for many more years than previous generations.
HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: LECLERC :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA

Asphalt_World
Posts: 4636
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 6:08 pm

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by Asphalt_World »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:If Hamilton were to go to Ferrari, he would be taking people with him. The negotiations won't be over his salary, but rather how far Ferrari is prepare to incentivise the technical and managerial staff from Hamilton's Mercedes camp to jump ships.
That's a good point, I wonder who he would be taking though? Toto would be one guy that surely Ferrari could use
I think Toto is financially invested in the Merc F1 team. I don't think he'd go anywhere where he couldn't have that kind of arrangement.
It has been written about a lot that he would go with Lewis if Lewis chooses Ferrari. Those working in the F1 media don't seem to think he is that tied to Mercedes.
Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. [Lord Acton]
My own Google Earth Motor Sport file. http://www.mediafire.com/?jzm1ieatytv
Instagram @simply_italian_car_pics

User avatar
Blinky McSquinty
Posts: 1441
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:I don't know where you got any of this from Blinky. First off Hamilton arrived in F1 an adolescent man and immediately took the fight to his much more experienced teammate who just happened to be the reigning 2x World Champion, and he did it superbly and at no point was toxic.
I am of the opinion that in 2007 McLaren had the best car, and should have won the titles. The in-fighting between Hamilton and Alonso ruined what should have been one of McLaren's best years, and this signaled the decline of the team.
Only dogs, mothers, and quality undergarments give unconditional support.

User avatar
Blinky McSquinty
Posts: 1441
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

mikeyg123 wrote:I think Toto is financially invested in the Merc F1 team. I don't think he'd go anywhere where he couldn't have that kind of arrangement.
He holds a 30% share in Mercedes AMG Petronas Motorsport Formula One Team.

Before that, he was a shareholder in Williams F1.

Toto Wolff is an ex-racer, but a big player in the investment business. That is where he makes his money, that is where he gets his power in racing from. He knows business and how to make money. Would it be wise to leave a quality team he controls just for a perceived personal loyalty?
Only dogs, mothers, and quality undergarments give unconditional support.

pokerman
Posts: 34512
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by pokerman »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:I don't know where you got any of this from Blinky. First off Hamilton arrived in F1 an adolescent man and immediately took the fight to his much more experienced teammate who just happened to be the reigning 2x World Champion, and he did it superbly and at no point was toxic.
I am of the opinion that in 2007 McLaren had the best car, and should have won the titles. The in-fighting between Hamilton and Alonso ruined what should have been one of McLaren's best years, and this signaled the decline of the team.
The drivers signaled the decline of the McLaren team in 2007 despite winning the title in 2008, and the performance deficit in 2009 had nothing to do with the new regulations which were brought in inpart to stop McLaren winning in the aftermath of spygate?

I'm wondering what signaled the decline of Ferrari as they also seemed ill equipped to beat the dominant Red Bull cars?

Which car was the best in 2007 seems to be as much about who someone either supports or doesn't support but in the argument you put forward we have to believe than in 2007 and even 2008 both Kimi and Massa were at the same level as Alonso and Hamilton.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Siao7
Posts: 8385
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by Siao7 »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:I think Toto is financially invested in the Merc F1 team. I don't think he'd go anywhere where he couldn't have that kind of arrangement.
He holds a 30% share in Mercedes AMG Petronas Motorsport Formula One Team.

Before that, he was a shareholder in Williams F1.

Toto Wolff is an ex-racer, but a big player in the investment business. That is where he makes his money, that is where he gets his power in racing from. He knows business and how to make money. Would it be wise to leave a quality team he controls just for a perceived personal loyalty?
Not sure about loyalty or not, but he was rumoured to be leaving Mercedes at some point, wasn't he? Toto that is.

pokerman
Posts: 34512
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:I think Toto is financially invested in the Merc F1 team. I don't think he'd go anywhere where he couldn't have that kind of arrangement.
He holds a 30% share in Mercedes AMG Petronas Motorsport Formula One Team.

Before that, he was a shareholder in Williams F1.

Toto Wolff is an ex-racer, but a big player in the investment business. That is where he makes his money, that is where he gets his power in racing from. He knows business and how to make money. Would it be wise to leave a quality team he controls just for a perceived personal loyalty?
Not sure about loyalty or not, but he was rumoured to be leaving Mercedes at some point, wasn't he? Toto that is.
Yes to join Liberty Media and run F1 but that got blocked by Ferrari at an early stage.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

mikeyg123
Posts: 17244
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:I think Toto is financially invested in the Merc F1 team. I don't think he'd go anywhere where he couldn't have that kind of arrangement.
He holds a 30% share in Mercedes AMG Petronas Motorsport Formula One Team.

Before that, he was a shareholder in Williams F1.

Toto Wolff is an ex-racer, but a big player in the investment business. That is where he makes his money, that is where he gets his power in racing from. He knows business and how to make money. Would it be wise to leave a quality team he controls just for a perceived personal loyalty?
Not sure about loyalty or not, but he was rumoured to be leaving Mercedes at some point, wasn't he? Toto that is.
Yes to join Liberty Media and run F1 but that got blocked by Ferrari at an early stage.
Yes that old veto, the one they said was purely for philanthropic reasons.

No reasons to block old boys Todt or Brawn though.

User avatar
tootsie323
Posts: 3072
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:52 am

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by tootsie323 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:I think Toto is financially invested in the Merc F1 team. I don't think he'd go anywhere where he couldn't have that kind of arrangement.
He holds a 30% share in Mercedes AMG Petronas Motorsport Formula One Team.

Before that, he was a shareholder in Williams F1.

Toto Wolff is an ex-racer, but a big player in the investment business. That is where he makes his money, that is where he gets his power in racing from. He knows business and how to make money. Would it be wise to leave a quality team he controls just for a perceived personal loyalty?
Not sure about loyalty or not, but he was rumoured to be leaving Mercedes at some point, wasn't he? Toto that is.
Yes to join Liberty Media and run F1 but that got blocked by Ferrari at an early stage.
Yes that old veto, the one they said was purely for philanthropic reasons.

No reasons to block old boys Todt or Brawn though.
Ferrari's reason behind blocking Wolff was that it was an immediate transition from team principal to running the show. They did state that the same would have applied to Binotto had he been in consideration for that role.
Where I'm going, I don't need roads

pokerman
Posts: 34512
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by pokerman »

tootsie323 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote: He holds a 30% share in Mercedes AMG Petronas Motorsport Formula One Team.

Before that, he was a shareholder in Williams F1.

Toto Wolff is an ex-racer, but a big player in the investment business. That is where he makes his money, that is where he gets his power in racing from. He knows business and how to make money. Would it be wise to leave a quality team he controls just for a perceived personal loyalty?
Not sure about loyalty or not, but he was rumoured to be leaving Mercedes at some point, wasn't he? Toto that is.
Yes to join Liberty Media and run F1 but that got blocked by Ferrari at an early stage.
Yes that old veto, the one they said was purely for philanthropic reasons.

No reasons to block old boys Todt or Brawn though.
Ferrari's reason behind blocking Wolff was that it was an immediate transition from team principal to running the show. They did state that the same would have applied to Binotto had he been in consideration for that role.
It's interesting that Todt was still working for Ferrari as late as March 2009 before becoming President of the FIA later that year in October, to be fair to Todt he has never shown any bias in respect to Ferrari during his Presidency.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

mikeyg123
Posts: 17244
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by mikeyg123 »

tootsie323 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
He holds a 30% share in Mercedes AMG Petronas Motorsport Formula One Team.

Before that, he was a shareholder in Williams F1.

Toto Wolff is an ex-racer, but a big player in the investment business. That is where he makes his money, that is where he gets his power in racing from. He knows business and how to make money. Would it be wise to leave a quality team he controls just for a perceived personal loyalty?
Not sure about loyalty or not, but he was rumoured to be leaving Mercedes at some point, wasn't he? Toto that is.
Yes to join Liberty Media and run F1 but that got blocked by Ferrari at an early stage.
Yes that old veto, the one they said was purely for philanthropic reasons.

No reasons to block old boys Todt or Brawn though.
Ferrari's reason behind blocking Wolff was that it was an immediate transition from team principal to running the show. They did state that the same would have applied to Binotto had he been in consideration for that role.
But were fine with Todt taking over at the FIA in the same year he worked for Ferrari.

shoot999
Posts: 3087
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:23 am

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by shoot999 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:I think Toto is financially invested in the Merc F1 team. I don't think he'd go anywhere where he couldn't have that kind of arrangement.
He holds a 30% share in Mercedes AMG Petronas Motorsport Formula One Team.

Before that, he was a shareholder in Williams F1.

Toto Wolff is an ex-racer, but a big player in the investment business. That is where he makes his money, that is where he gets his power in racing from. He knows business and how to make money. Would it be wise to leave a quality team he controls just for a perceived personal loyalty?
Not sure about loyalty or not, but he was rumoured to be leaving Mercedes at some point, wasn't he? Toto that is.
Yes to join Liberty Media and run F1 but that got blocked by Ferrari at an early stage.
Yes that old veto, the one they said was purely for philanthropic reasons.

No reasons to block old boys Todt or Brawn though.
Wolff being responsible to a Board and shareholders is a problem. So we can't have that.
Ex Ferrari Todt being the head of the FIA whilst his son also manages the Ferrari No 1 driver? Nothing to see here.

Siao7
Posts: 8385
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:I think Toto is financially invested in the Merc F1 team. I don't think he'd go anywhere where he couldn't have that kind of arrangement.
He holds a 30% share in Mercedes AMG Petronas Motorsport Formula One Team.

Before that, he was a shareholder in Williams F1.

Toto Wolff is an ex-racer, but a big player in the investment business. That is where he makes his money, that is where he gets his power in racing from. He knows business and how to make money. Would it be wise to leave a quality team he controls just for a perceived personal loyalty?
Not sure about loyalty or not, but he was rumoured to be leaving Mercedes at some point, wasn't he? Toto that is.
Yes to join Liberty Media and run F1 but that got blocked by Ferrari at an early stage.
Yes that old veto, the one they said was purely for philanthropic reasons.

No reasons to block old boys Todt or Brawn though.
Well Brawn was out of F1 for 2 years I believe before he got to the FIA role and out of Ferrari since 2006 or 2007 if you count his sabbatical (since we are talking about the Ferrari link). Todt resigned Ferrari in April, got elected in the FIA in October, so technically not a Ferrari member I guess, while Toto would still be a Mercedes shareholder. Semantics frankly, but still. As others pointed out, Todt hasn't shown any blatant bias towards any team during his tenure (that we know of). This of course doesn't mean that Toto would have shown any bias either.

For the record, Hamilton has publicly expressed his opinion that Toto shouldn't be the next FIA president. He wants someone from outside F1. I'm not sure how realistic this is, but it is a nice thought.

mikeyg123
Posts: 17244
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by mikeyg123 »

Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
He holds a 30% share in Mercedes AMG Petronas Motorsport Formula One Team.

Before that, he was a shareholder in Williams F1.

Toto Wolff is an ex-racer, but a big player in the investment business. That is where he makes his money, that is where he gets his power in racing from. He knows business and how to make money. Would it be wise to leave a quality team he controls just for a perceived personal loyalty?
Not sure about loyalty or not, but he was rumoured to be leaving Mercedes at some point, wasn't he? Toto that is.
Yes to join Liberty Media and run F1 but that got blocked by Ferrari at an early stage.
Yes that old veto, the one they said was purely for philanthropic reasons.

No reasons to block old boys Todt or Brawn though.
Well Brawn was out of F1 for 2 years I believe before he got to the FIA role and out of Ferrari since 2006 or 2007 if you count his sabbatical (since we are talking about the Ferrari link). Todt resigned Ferrari in April, got elected in the FIA in October, so technically not a Ferrari member I guess, while Toto would still be a Mercedes shareholder. Semantics frankly, but still. As others pointed out, Todt hasn't shown any blatant bias towards any team during his tenure (that we know of). This of course doesn't mean that Toto would have shown any bias either.

For the record, Hamilton has publicly expressed his opinion that Toto shouldn't be the next FIA president. He wants someone from outside F1. I'm not sure how realistic this is, but it is a nice thought.
I don't think Toto should both hold a share in a team and be in a capacity of running the sport.

Someone outside of F1 for FIA president would certainly be good. I've never been a fan of Todt as head of the FIA (though I've never noticed any bias)

Siao7
Posts: 8385
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Not sure about loyalty or not, but he was rumoured to be leaving Mercedes at some point, wasn't he? Toto that is.
Yes to join Liberty Media and run F1 but that got blocked by Ferrari at an early stage.
Yes that old veto, the one they said was purely for philanthropic reasons.

No reasons to block old boys Todt or Brawn though.
Well Brawn was out of F1 for 2 years I believe before he got to the FIA role and out of Ferrari since 2006 or 2007 if you count his sabbatical (since we are talking about the Ferrari link). Todt resigned Ferrari in April, got elected in the FIA in October, so technically not a Ferrari member I guess, while Toto would still be a Mercedes shareholder. Semantics frankly, but still. As others pointed out, Todt hasn't shown any blatant bias towards any team during his tenure (that we know of). This of course doesn't mean that Toto would have shown any bias either.

For the record, Hamilton has publicly expressed his opinion that Toto shouldn't be the next FIA president. He wants someone from outside F1. I'm not sure how realistic this is, but it is a nice thought.
I don't think Toto should both hold a share in a team and be in a capacity of running the sport.

Someone outside of F1 for FIA president would certainly be good. I've never been a fan of Todt as head of the FIA (though I've never noticed any bias)
Yeah, I agree. I also thought Todt would do a bit more in his role for the sport in general, but the direction we have taken during his presidency is not the best really. Full of gimmicks and band aid solutions. I actually wanted Vatanen back then, even as a Ferrari fan, but it wasn't meant to be. It should also be noted that when Todt got into power, the FIA was in a turmoil following the Mosley scandal. I do not believe that today he would have such an easy victory as he did back then. Everyone wanted to start afresh back then, just to move away from Mosley.

User avatar
Blinky McSquinty
Posts: 1441
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

pokerman wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:I don't know where you got any of this from Blinky. First off Hamilton arrived in F1 an adolescent man and immediately took the fight to his much more experienced teammate who just happened to be the reigning 2x World Champion, and he did it superbly and at no point was toxic.
I am of the opinion that in 2007 McLaren had the best car, and should have won the titles. The in-fighting between Hamilton and Alonso ruined what should have been one of McLaren's best years, and this signaled the decline of the team.
The drivers signaled the decline of the McLaren team in 2007 despite winning the title in 2008, and the performance deficit in 2009 had nothing to do with the new regulations which were brought in inpart to stop McLaren winning in the aftermath of spygate?

I'm wondering what signaled the decline of Ferrari as they also seemed ill equipped to beat the dominant Red Bull cars?

Which car was the best in 2007 seems to be as much about who someone either supports or doesn't support but in the argument you put forward we have to believe than in 2007 and even 2008 both Kimi and Massa were at the same level as Alonso and Hamilton.
The story of Ferrari's decline is well documented, of poor upper level management and divisions not communicating with each other properly. Red Bull just exasperated the situation because they brought in a new management system. That also brought to light Williams' antiquated management, thus leading to the eventual resignation of both Patrick Head and Sir Frank. Toyota brought in better production methods, such as "Just In Time" and buried the leader General Motors. The parallel situation is what Red Bull did to the other major teams.

Any driver that manages to get a drive in Formula One is top caliber, and the differences between all the drivers is minuscule. Give any top driver a quality car suited to his style and a team that fully supports the driver's preferences, they will win. It is very simple in Formula One, the car and team decide the outcome, the driver may win a race or two based on their sheer abilities, but over a season, it is the car.

"Same level"? There is more to racing than sheer pace.
Only dogs, mothers, and quality undergarments give unconditional support.

pokerman
Posts: 34512
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by pokerman »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:I don't know where you got any of this from Blinky. First off Hamilton arrived in F1 an adolescent man and immediately took the fight to his much more experienced teammate who just happened to be the reigning 2x World Champion, and he did it superbly and at no point was toxic.
I am of the opinion that in 2007 McLaren had the best car, and should have won the titles. The in-fighting between Hamilton and Alonso ruined what should have been one of McLaren's best years, and this signaled the decline of the team.
The drivers signaled the decline of the McLaren team in 2007 despite winning the title in 2008, and the performance deficit in 2009 had nothing to do with the new regulations which were brought in inpart to stop McLaren winning in the aftermath of spygate?

I'm wondering what signaled the decline of Ferrari as they also seemed ill equipped to beat the dominant Red Bull cars?

Which car was the best in 2007 seems to be as much about who someone either supports or doesn't support but in the argument you put forward we have to believe than in 2007 and even 2008 both Kimi and Massa were at the same level as Alonso and Hamilton.
The story of Ferrari's decline is well documented, of poor upper level management and divisions not communicating with each other properly. Red Bull just exasperated the situation because they brought in a new management system. That also brought to light Williams' antiquated management, thus leading to the eventual resignation of both Patrick Head and Sir Frank. Toyota brought in better production methods, such as "Just In Time" and buried the leader General Motors. The parallel situation is what Red Bull did to the other major teams.

Any driver that manages to get a drive in Formula One is top caliber, and the differences between all the drivers is minuscule. Give any top driver a quality car suited to his style and a team that fully supports the driver's preferences, they will win. It is very simple in Formula One, the car and team decide the outcome, the driver may win a race or two based on their sheer abilities, but over a season, it is the car.

"Same level"? There is more to racing than sheer pace.
Of course but with McLaren apparently it wasn't poor management but the drivers themselves that brought forward the demise of the team, I call you out on that one.

As for it being simply the car and the team that wins titles then I'm not sure you watched the 2017 and 2018 seasons, in particular the 2018 season, but then again you did say you've hardly watched much of F1 these past 3 seasons.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

shoot999
Posts: 3087
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:23 am

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by shoot999 »

Siao7 wrote:
Well Brawn was out of F1 for 2 years I believe before he got to the FIA role and out of Ferrari since 2006 or 2007 if you count his sabbatical (since we are talking about the Ferrari link). Todt resigned Ferrari in April, got elected in the FIA in October, so technically not a Ferrari member I guess, while Toto would still be a Mercedes shareholder. Semantics frankly, but still. As others pointed out, Todt hasn't shown any blatant bias towards any team during his tenure (that we know of). This of course doesn't mean that Toto would have shown any bias either.

For the record, Hamilton has publicly expressed his opinion that Toto shouldn't be the next FIA president. He wants someone from outside F1. I'm not sure how realistic this is, but it is a nice thought.

Agree with Hamilton on this one. I think Toto would be perfect running the show inwardly, but F1 is more than that. Its a billion dollar world-wide business, and you are going to be negotiating or dealing with head of countries, car manufacturers, the stock market, international media organisations and other NGOs. So you are looking at recruiting someone who has a track record at that level and already has relationships with the people and organisations who operate at that level.

Siao7
Posts: 8385
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by Siao7 »

shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Well Brawn was out of F1 for 2 years I believe before he got to the FIA role and out of Ferrari since 2006 or 2007 if you count his sabbatical (since we are talking about the Ferrari link). Todt resigned Ferrari in April, got elected in the FIA in October, so technically not a Ferrari member I guess, while Toto would still be a Mercedes shareholder. Semantics frankly, but still. As others pointed out, Todt hasn't shown any blatant bias towards any team during his tenure (that we know of). This of course doesn't mean that Toto would have shown any bias either.

For the record, Hamilton has publicly expressed his opinion that Toto shouldn't be the next FIA president. He wants someone from outside F1. I'm not sure how realistic this is, but it is a nice thought.

Agree with Hamilton on this one. I think Toto would be perfect running the show inwardly, but F1 is more than that. Its a billion dollar world-wide business, and you are going to be negotiating or dealing with head of countries, car manufacturers, the stock market, international media organisations and other NGOs. So you are looking at recruiting someone who has a track record at that level and already has relationships with the people and organisations who operate at that level.
It needs to be the best of both worlds really. All the things you mentioned above, but also having a grip of what this sport is about (and the other FIA sanctioned ones), so F1 background in some sort of capacity is desirable in my view.

User avatar
Tufty
Posts: 2033
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:33 pm
Location: Colwyn Bay, North Wales

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by Tufty »

Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Well Brawn was out of F1 for 2 years I believe before he got to the FIA role and out of Ferrari since 2006 or 2007 if you count his sabbatical (since we are talking about the Ferrari link). Todt resigned Ferrari in April, got elected in the FIA in October, so technically not a Ferrari member I guess, while Toto would still be a Mercedes shareholder. Semantics frankly, but still. As others pointed out, Todt hasn't shown any blatant bias towards any team during his tenure (that we know of). This of course doesn't mean that Toto would have shown any bias either.

For the record, Hamilton has publicly expressed his opinion that Toto shouldn't be the next FIA president. He wants someone from outside F1. I'm not sure how realistic this is, but it is a nice thought.

Agree with Hamilton on this one. I think Toto would be perfect running the show inwardly, but F1 is more than that. Its a billion dollar world-wide business, and you are going to be negotiating or dealing with head of countries, car manufacturers, the stock market, international media organisations and other NGOs. So you are looking at recruiting someone who has a track record at that level and already has relationships with the people and organisations who operate at that level.
It needs to be the best of both worlds really. All the things you mentioned above, but also having a grip of what this sport is about (and the other FIA sanctioned ones), so F1 background in some sort of capacity is desirable in my view.
By that reasoning (which I agree with wholeheartedly) I'd suggest the ideal guy to run F1 might be someone like Lawrence Stroll.
Organiser of the single most low-tech Robot Wars tournament in history, PM for details!

User avatar
F1 MERCENARY
Posts: 2359
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:38 pm
Location: Miami, Florida

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:I don't know where you got any of this from Blinky. First off Hamilton arrived in F1 an adolescent man and immediately took the fight to his much more experienced teammate who just happened to be the reigning 2x World Champion, and he did it superbly and at no point was toxic.
I am of the opinion that in 2007 McLaren had the best car, and should have won the titles. The in-fighting between Hamilton and Alonso ruined what should have been one of McLaren's best years, and this signaled the decline of the team.
In both 2007 and 2008 the McLaren had an inherent flaw in chassis construction & suspension geometry that would cause the inside front tire to lift considerably under load and it would be dragged along, flat spotting them throughout the races. And with Hamilton being one of the latest brakers of all time, he was lighting up his inside fronts consistently. Maybe you don't you remember it, but I sure do because I was always thinking he's going to flat spot them so severely he'll have to stop for fresh rubber.

Honestly, I think the Ferrari was the better, more balanced and easier to drive car, but McLaren's Drivers made it appear as though their car was superior. The biggest problem for them was that the young Rookie would have NONE of the lap doggedness from ANYONE and set out to prove that very point to his teammate and they cost one another time in doing so rather than the one behind biding his time either waiting for or pressuring the guy in front into an error, or setting him up for an overtake.
HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: LECLERC :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 7883
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by Exediron »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:Honestly, I think the Ferrari was the better, more balanced and easier to drive car, but McLaren's Drivers made it appear as though their car was superior.
I think you're absolutely right, but I doubt you're going to change anyone's opinion after this long...
PICK 10 COMPETITION (5 wins, 17 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

User avatar
Alienturnedhuman
Posts: 3854
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm

Re: Ferrari '21 - Would you sign Hamilton

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Tufty wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Well Brawn was out of F1 for 2 years I believe before he got to the FIA role and out of Ferrari since 2006 or 2007 if you count his sabbatical (since we are talking about the Ferrari link). Todt resigned Ferrari in April, got elected in the FIA in October, so technically not a Ferrari member I guess, while Toto would still be a Mercedes shareholder. Semantics frankly, but still. As others pointed out, Todt hasn't shown any blatant bias towards any team during his tenure (that we know of). This of course doesn't mean that Toto would have shown any bias either.

For the record, Hamilton has publicly expressed his opinion that Toto shouldn't be the next FIA president. He wants someone from outside F1. I'm not sure how realistic this is, but it is a nice thought.

Agree with Hamilton on this one. I think Toto would be perfect running the show inwardly, but F1 is more than that. Its a billion dollar world-wide business, and you are going to be negotiating or dealing with head of countries, car manufacturers, the stock market, international media organisations and other NGOs. So you are looking at recruiting someone who has a track record at that level and already has relationships with the people and organisations who operate at that level.
It needs to be the best of both worlds really. All the things you mentioned above, but also having a grip of what this sport is about (and the other FIA sanctioned ones), so F1 background in some sort of capacity is desirable in my view.
By that reasoning (which I agree with wholeheartedly) I'd suggest the ideal guy to run F1 might be someone like Lawrence Stroll.
And then we can look forwards to the drivers complaining on the radio that Lance needs to look into the other driver not giving them room... Or maybe fans complaining about how bland all the new Lancedrome circuits are.

Post Reply