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So with one weekend left in the 2019 season and not a great deal left to play for, it seems doubtful that the final race in the season is going to have a huge impact on people's perceptions of how each driver has performed across the year.

So with that in mind, I was wondering how people's perceptions of each driver have been altered by the 2019 season compared to how you may have thought about them at the start of the year? I've attached a poll because, well, I love a good poll. Although having previewed the post it looks absolutely ridiculous compared to the thread itself so I'm half-tempted to remove it! But as it makes it easier for people who might not want to type out a response to at least indicate how they feel I've left it in. For each driver I've included the option to say you rate them higher, lower, or roughly the same as you did at the beginning of the season.

No real reason for this thread besides my own curiosity, and to give us a talking point as we enter December/January, which are usually pretty boring months by F1's standards!

My first reaction to seeing the giant list of options was 'Yikes!'

Here's how it falls out for me:


Higher
_____________________
Verstappen
Albon
Norris
Giovinazzi
Stroll
Russell

The Same
_____________________
Hamilton
Bottas
Vettel
Leclerc
Sainz
Ricciardo
Hulkenberg
Gasly
Raikkonen
Perez
Grosjean
Magnussen

Lower
_____________________
Kvyat
Kubica


Interestingly, this highlights the fact that my rating of a driver is unlikely to go down once it's established.

Exediron wrote:My first reaction to seeing the giant list of options was 'Yikes!'

Here's how it falls out for me:


Higher
_____________________
Verstappen
Albon
Norris
Giovinazzi
Stroll
Russell

The Same
_____________________
Hamilton
Bottas
Vettel
Leclerc
Sainz
Ricciardo
Hulkenberg
Gasly
Raikkonen
Perez
Grosjean
Magnussen

Lower
_____________________
Kvyat
Kubica


Interestingly, this highlights the fact that my rating of a driver is unlikely to go down once it's established.

I think I'm in agreement with your view, with the exception of Norris, Giovinazzi and Bottas.

Bottas - I rate a little higher now as he's been pretty consistent most of the season with the exception of a little slump in the middle.

Giovanazzi - he's looked good since the summer break but I can't help but feel it's at least partly to do with Kimi being a little disinterested.

Norris - I rate him about what I expected. A few really impressive bits but I think he's struggling a bit in races for me to rate him any higher than I expected. I think (hope) that this is down to inexperience and we'll see better from him next season.

I'd rate Verstappen, Albon, Giovinazzi, Stroll, and Russell higher than expected, and I'd rate Gasly and Kvyat lower than expected. Everyone else, about the same.

Remmirath wrote:I'd rate Verstappen, Albon, Giovinazzi, Stroll, and Russell higher than expected, and I'd rate Gasly and Kvyat lower than expected. Everyone else, about the same.

Does that include Vettel who always crashes a lot and blame others!

When people are rating the likes of Stroll and Giovinazzi as being higher than expected I'm just wondering about which drivers might be considered as being worse apart from Kubica?

pokerman wrote:When people are rating the likes of Stroll and Giovinazzi as being higher than expected I'm just wondering about which drivers might be considered as being worse apart from Kubica?

Rather depends on what individuals' expectations of the drivers were at the start of the season.

pokerman wrote:When people are rating the likes of Stroll and Giovinazzi as being higher than expected I'm just wondering about which drivers might be considered as being worse apart from Kubica?

Surely irrelevant? You could rate the worst driver on the grid higher now than you did at the start of the season.

tootsie323 wrote:

pokerman wrote:When people are rating the likes of Stroll and Giovinazzi as being higher than expected I'm just wondering about which drivers might be considered as being worse apart from Kubica?

Rather depends on what individuals' expectations of the drivers were at the start of the season.

I know but it can be a bit misleading, I thought he was rubbish and shouldn't be in F1 but now I still don't rate him but I can put up with him being in F1.

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:When people are rating the likes of Stroll and Giovinazzi as being higher than expected I'm just wondering about which drivers might be considered as being worse apart from Kubica?

Surely irrelevant? You could rate the worst driver on the grid higher now than you did at the start of the season.

Yeah I've just answered that, rating someone higher can be somewhat of a false endorsement.

pokerman wrote:Yeah I've just answered that, rating someone higher can be somewhat of a false endorsement.

I don't see it as an endorsement at all. If I rate someone who is still performing badly as higher than expected, that means I expected them to be quite poor.

I expected Perez to beat Stroll just about as badly as Russell is beating Kubica, and that hasn't happened. Giovinazzi I considered to be worse than Gasly, a driver I rate pretty poorly; he's been beating Kimi in qualifying lately, which is a surprise to me. Both of them are still in the bottom five for me.

For me Gasly is the big surprise. I thought he was god awful and he was when it was at Redbull, but in a toro rosso car he looks quite handy and has shown to be at least an average f1 driver.
Stroll has also improved in my eyes. He improves a little bit every year it seems.
Sainz has driven like a god most of this year. I used to think he was very average, he is probably a top 10 driver now.
Leclerc so handily outpacing Vettel in his rookie season at Ferrari in qualifying I also didn't see coming. Next year I think it will be a total domination, as I expect his race pace to catch up to his qualifying.

kleefton wrote:For me Gasly is the big surprise. I thought he was god awful and he was when it was at Redbull, but in a toro rosso car he looks quite handy and has shown to be at least an average f1 driver.
Stroll has also improved in my eyes. He improves a little bit every year it seems.
Sainz has driven like a god most of this year. I used to think he was very average, he is probably a top 10 driver now.
Leclerc so handily outpacing Vettel in his rookie season at Ferrari in qualifying I also didn't see coming. Next year I think it will be a total domination, as I expect his race pace to catch up to his qualifying.

His gap to Kvyat puts him well above average. If he had been in Toro Rosso all year and destroyed Kvyat you would think he could go to Red Bull and at least be at Ricciardo level.

His Red Bull speed is the oddest thing I’ve seen in a while, it reminds me of Schumachers Benetton team mates in 1994. Gasly is clearly massively talented and we haven’t seen a driver not be able to drive a certain car in a long time

Johnson wrote:

kleefton wrote:For me Gasly is the big surprise. I thought he was god awful and he was when it was at Redbull, but in a toro rosso car he looks quite handy and has shown to be at least an average f1 driver.
Stroll has also improved in my eyes. He improves a little bit every year it seems.
Sainz has driven like a god most of this year. I used to think he was very average, he is probably a top 10 driver now.
Leclerc so handily outpacing Vettel in his rookie season at Ferrari in qualifying I also didn't see coming. Next year I think it will be a total domination, as I expect his race pace to catch up to his qualifying.

His gap to Kvyat puts him well above average. If he had been in Toro Rosso all year and destroyed Kvyat you would think he could go to Red Bull and at least be at Ricciardo level.

His Red Bull speed is the oddest thing I’ve seen in a while, it reminds me of Schumachers Benetton team mates in 1994. Gasly is clearly massively talented and we haven’t seen a driver not be able to drive a certain car in a long time

I just think Kvyat's no very good. Don't forget Gasly's problem wasn't just a lack of speed. He also had just about no race craft. He would fall down on the opening lap and then just sit behind slower cars.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Johnson wrote:

kleefton wrote:For me Gasly is the big surprise. I thought he was god awful and he was when it was at Redbull, but in a toro rosso car he looks quite handy and has shown to be at least an average f1 driver.
Stroll has also improved in my eyes. He improves a little bit every year it seems.
Sainz has driven like a god most of this year. I used to think he was very average, he is probably a top 10 driver now.
Leclerc so handily outpacing Vettel in his rookie season at Ferrari in qualifying I also didn't see coming. Next year I think it will be a total domination, as I expect his race pace to catch up to his qualifying.

His gap to Kvyat puts him well above average. If he had been in Toro Rosso all year and destroyed Kvyat you would think he could go to Red Bull and at least be at Ricciardo level.

His Red Bull speed is the oddest thing I’ve seen in a while, it reminds me of Schumachers Benetton team mates in 1994. Gasly is clearly massively talented and we haven’t seen a driver not be able to drive a certain car in a long time

I just think Kvyat's no very good. Don't forget Gasly's problem wasn't just a lack of speed. He also had just about no race craft. He would fall down on the opening lap and then just sit behind slower cars.

What is funny though is that Kvyat clearly looked better than Gasly when he was at Red Bull. Was it the first race or near there that Kvyat basically kept gasly behind the whole race?

Even since Gasly came back to Toro Rosso, he has certainly looked better. Far better in some races, but not every time. I think Kvyat's start of the season was actually good in the same way that Gasly is looking good now. Overall I think they are both just average, but to me, Kvyat has at least improved compared to when he was last in F1. But then he couldn't have been much worse back then.

Kvyat didn't look as bad as Gasly when he was actually at Red Bull. But Kvyat was simply terrible when he returned to Toro Rosso. Gasly seems to have been terrible at Red Bull and made a turn around i didn't expect in the same way Kvyat did when he started this season.

Exediron wrote:My first reaction to seeing the giant list of options was 'Yikes!'

Here's how it falls out for me:


Higher
_____________________
Verstappen
Albon
Norris
Giovinazzi
Stroll
Russell

The Same
_____________________
Hamilton
Bottas
Vettel
Leclerc
Sainz
Ricciardo
Hulkenberg
Gasly
Raikkonen
Perez
Grosjean
Magnussen

Lower
_____________________
Kvyat
Kubica


Interestingly, this highlights the fact that my rating of a driver is unlikely to go down once it's established.

I'm surprised to see that you ranked Vettel the same as in the beginning of the season. I didn't expect him to necessarily beat Leclerc, but at the same time I expected both drivers to be more consistent, which has not happened.

I would agree with most of the rest, but would have to put an N/A on drivers such as Norris, Albon, Giovinazzi and Russell because I didn't really know much about them at all at the start of the season.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Johnson wrote:

kleefton wrote:For me Gasly is the big surprise. I thought he was god awful and he was when it was at Redbull, but in a toro rosso car he looks quite handy and has shown to be at least an average f1 driver.
Stroll has also improved in my eyes. He improves a little bit every year it seems.
Sainz has driven like a god most of this year. I used to think he was very average, he is probably a top 10 driver now.
Leclerc so handily outpacing Vettel in his rookie season at Ferrari in qualifying I also didn't see coming. Next year I think it will be a total domination, as I expect his race pace to catch up to his qualifying.

His gap to Kvyat puts him well above average. If he had been in Toro Rosso all year and destroyed Kvyat you would think he could go to Red Bull and at least be at Ricciardo level.

His Red Bull speed is the oddest thing I’ve seen in a while, it reminds me of Schumachers Benetton team mates in 1994. Gasly is clearly massively talented and we haven’t seen a driver not be able to drive a certain car in a long time

I just think Kvyat's no very good. Don't forget Gasly's problem wasn't just a lack of speed. He also had just about no race craft. He would fall down on the opening lap and then just sit behind slower cars.

What is funny though is that Kvyat clearly looked better than Gasly when he was at Red Bull. Was it the first race or near there that Kvyat basically kept gasly behind the whole race?

Even since Gasly came back to Toro Rosso, he has certainly looked better. Far better in some races, but not every time. I think Kvyat's start of the season was actually good in the same way that Gasly is looking good now. Overall I think they are both just average, but to me, Kvyat has at least improved compared to when he was last in F1. But then he couldn't have been much worse back then.

Kvyat didn't look as bad as Gasly when he was actually at Red Bull. But Kvyat was simply terrible when he returned to Toro Rosso. Gasly seems to have been terrible at Red Bull and made a turn around i didn't expect in the same way Kvyat did when he started this season.

Gasly has out qualified Kvyat 7-1 by an average of 0.330, it’s a thrashing over 1 lap at least. Over the same period Verstappen has out qualified Albon by 0.430. Not much different and everybody agrees that’s a thrashing.

There is no reason to think other than Kvyat has performed at the same level all year, he didn’t suddenly slow down because his team mate changed. Gasly is a very quick driver in the TR but for a very odd reason it didn’t translate to the Red Bull.

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:Yeah I've just answered that, rating someone higher can be somewhat of a false endorsement.

I don't see it as an endorsement at all. If I rate someone who is still performing badly as higher than expected, that means I expected them to be quite poor.

I expected Perez to beat Stroll just about as badly as Russell is beating Kubica, and that hasn't happened. Giovinazzi I considered to be worse than Gasly, a driver I rate pretty poorly; he's been beating Kimi in qualifying lately, which is a surprise to me. Both of them are still in the bottom five for me.

Yes I fully understand that Stroll simply didn't get thrashed as badly by Perez as you thought he would, as for me I look at the question, has my opinion on Stroll changed and that would be no, he's still one of the worse drivers in F1.

In respect to Giovinazzi then yes he's done well in qualifying in respect to Kimi but then again I think Kimi would get beat in qualifying by at least half of the grid.

When you look at the WDC table and take away the 2 poorest cars which is clearly the Williams and the Haas which is terrible in the races, the bottom 2 drivers are Stroll and Giovinazzi so I can't say yes my opinion of them has improved this season, in respect to Stroll in terms of results he actually did better in his rookie season than he did this season.

Noni wrote:

Remmirath wrote:I'd rate Verstappen, Albon, Giovinazzi, Stroll, and Russell higher than expected, and I'd rate Gasly and Kvyat lower than expected. Everyone else, about the same.

Does that include Vettel who always crashes a lot and blame others!

Yep.

pokerman wrote:

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:Yeah I've just answered that, rating someone higher can be somewhat of a false endorsement.

I don't see it as an endorsement at all. If I rate someone who is still performing badly as higher than expected, that means I expected them to be quite poor.

I expected Perez to beat Stroll just about as badly as Russell is beating Kubica, and that hasn't happened. Giovinazzi I considered to be worse than Gasly, a driver I rate pretty poorly; he's been beating Kimi in qualifying lately, which is a surprise to me. Both of them are still in the bottom five for me.

Yes I fully understand that Stroll simply didn't get thrashed as badly by Perez as you thought he would, as for me I look at the question, has my opinion on Stroll changed and that would be no, he's still one of the worse drivers in F1.

In respect to Giovinazzi then yes he's done well in qualifying in respect to Kimi but then again I think Kimi would get beat in qualifying by at least half of the grid.

When you look at the WDC table and take away the 2 poorest cars which is clearly the Williams and the Haas which is terrible in the races, the bottom 2 drivers are Stroll and Giovinazzi so I can't say yes my opinion of them has improved this season, in respect to Stroll in terms of results he actually did better in his rookie season than he did this season.

Eh, that's true if you're going by broad strokes like that, but I took the question to be more about slight changes. The way I look at it, my opinion has changed if I still consider somebody one of the worst drivers on the grid, but by a more slender margin than I previously did. Similarly, I would also say it had changed if I considered somebody the best driver on the grid by a more slender (or wider) margin than previous.

Verstappen cleaned up his act and made less mistakes this year, which is why I rate him higher than expected. Russell beat Kubica by about the margin I expected in most races, but he had a generally very smooth rookie season, whereas I expected him to have more rough patches. Albon did better against Verstappen - although mostly compared to Gasly - than I would have thought, leaving me with the impression that Albon is the best of the Red Bull drivers other than Verstappen at the moment, whereas I was previously unsure and assumed the greater experience of the other two might win out (that it didn't is why I now rate the two of them less highly). Giovinazzi didn't impress me, but he did at least get on top of his qualifying towards the end of the year, whereas I honestly thought he was pretty hopeless at the start.

So, yes, all around faint praise and narrow margins, but nonetheless opinions that are not quite the same as they were at the start of the year.

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:I'm surprised to see that you ranked Vettel the same as in the beginning of the season. I didn't expect him to necessarily beat Leclerc, but at the same time I expected both drivers to be more consistent, which has not happened.

I fully expected Leclerc to beat Vettel -- you'll notice I also have Charles in the 'no change' category. If anything, I actually expected Leclerc to be more ahead by the end of the year.

For Vettel, sadly, making silly mistakes is what I expect these days.