2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

shoot999
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by shoot999 »

Fiki wrote:
shoot999 wrote: As for Vettel, the rules said that you have to be in contact with the track or white line. Vettel wasnt, but was judged to be on track because in their opinion a bit of this tyre was hanging over the white line.
Just for the sake of argument; do you remember the real reason Vettel's time was allowed to stand? I didn't, so I looked it up.

And just in case Pokerman would like to throw in that the race notes allowed people to go slightly wide at the Parabolica, they didn't. I looked it up.
Only what I read on here. Why you are not claiming someone misrepresented the facts :lol:

What i forgot was this was all subsumed by the last run antics, and something about Albon was more on track than Vettel but got punished? I did see the pic of clear air between the white line and Vettel which seemed pretty obvious and probably one of the reasons why cameras are claimed not to be the answer to the issue.

pokerman
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote: Only that Fiki included the race notes that do not include that corner, so in this respect they most certainly broke the "rules"
No they specify the corners were you will be penalised.
Either you misunderstood what I posted directly from the race notes, or you didn't bother to read what I posted, or you didn't read the race notes from the FIA website directly. But there is no mention about which corners you would be penalised at Pokerman.
Nor did they specify which corners drivers would be allowed to run off the track at. So...?
I've just actually addressed that, going into qualifying was a free for all in respect to track limits so there was no need for the stewards to specify anything.

They just had the one corner were drivers had to return to the track in a specific way.
So "no need to specify anything" = "free to roam outside the track"?
Indeed did you see anyone penalised for it all weekend, did you hear any mention of it from the stewards all weekend, the only thing they had in place was how to return to the track on one corner.
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pokerman
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by pokerman »

Fiki wrote:
shoot999 wrote: As for Vettel, the rules said that you have to be in contact with the track or white line. Vettel wasnt, but was judged to be on track because in their opinion a bit of this tyre was hanging over the white line.
Just for the sake of argument; do you remember the real reason Vettel's time was allowed to stand? I didn't, so I looked it up.

And just in case Pokerman would like to throw in that the race notes allowed people to go slightly wide at the Parabolica, they didn't. I looked it up.
I'm surprised you didn't already know about the Vettel incident?
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pokerman
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by pokerman »

shoot999 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
shoot999 wrote: As for Vettel, the rules said that you have to be in contact with the track or white line. Vettel wasnt, but was judged to be on track because in their opinion a bit of this tyre was hanging over the white line.
Just for the sake of argument; do you remember the real reason Vettel's time was allowed to stand? I didn't, so I looked it up.

And just in case Pokerman would like to throw in that the race notes allowed people to go slightly wide at the Parabolica, they didn't. I looked it up.
Only what I read on here. Why you are not claiming someone misrepresented the facts :lol:

What i forgot was this was all subsumed by the last run antics, and something about Albon was more on track than Vettel but got punished? I did see the pic of clear air between the white line and Vettel which seemed pretty obvious and probably one of the reasons why cameras are claimed not to be the answer to the issue.
I would have liked to have seen pictures of the Albon incident.
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F1 Racer
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by F1 Racer »

Is there always a meeting between race control and the drivers, every race weekend without fail?

If so, why? I mean you don't get the referee of a football match, meeting with the two teams before the game to tell them about what rules are going to be applied for the match.

Maybe by keeping some corners policed for track limits and some corners not policed, it helps create some 'content' that justifies holding these driver meetings each time, as race control create a need for something to inform the drivers about.

That's not to say that there shouldn't be a meeting on the odd weekend if there is actually something relevant that needs to be told to the drivers, but it seems like there is the feeling of the need for a habitual meeting that takes place come what may, and track limits is often a topic that is covered in these meetings.

Fiki
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by Fiki »

pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
shoot999 wrote: As for Vettel, the rules said that you have to be in contact with the track or white line. Vettel wasnt, but was judged to be on track because in their opinion a bit of this tyre was hanging over the white line.
Just for the sake of argument; do you remember the real reason Vettel's time was allowed to stand? I didn't, so I looked it up.

And just in case Pokerman would like to throw in that the race notes allowed people to go slightly wide at the Parabolica, they didn't. I looked it up.
I'm surprised you didn't already know about the Vettel incident?
It is called refreshing one's memory. The original source is always worth re-reading. From the only footage I have seen of Vettel's incident, I can agree with the stewards' verdict.
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

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shoot999
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by shoot999 »

F1 Racer wrote:Is there always a meeting between race control and the drivers, every race weekend without fail?

If so, why? I mean you don't get the referee of a football match, meeting with the two teams before the game to tell them about what rules are going to be applied for the match.

Maybe by keeping some corners policed for track limits and some corners not policed, it helps create some 'content' that justifies holding these driver meetings each time, as race control create a need for something to inform the drivers about.

That's not to say that there shouldn't be a meeting on the odd weekend if there is actually something relevant that needs to be told to the drivers, but it seems like there is the feeling of the need for a habitual meeting that takes place come what may, and track limits is often a topic that is covered in these meetings.


As far as I know at every level at every meet, mainly safety driven, track behavior, changes since last race, incidents from last race, changes and updates since last visit; so in ref to international series, a years gap. new or revised track furniture, race directors notes and so on

Asphalt_World
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by Asphalt_World »

shoot999 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:Is there always a meeting between race control and the drivers, every race weekend without fail?

If so, why? I mean you don't get the referee of a football match, meeting with the two teams before the game to tell them about what rules are going to be applied for the match.

Maybe by keeping some corners policed for track limits and some corners not policed, it helps create some 'content' that justifies holding these driver meetings each time, as race control create a need for something to inform the drivers about.

That's not to say that there shouldn't be a meeting on the odd weekend if there is actually something relevant that needs to be told to the drivers, but it seems like there is the feeling of the need for a habitual meeting that takes place come what may, and track limits is often a topic that is covered in these meetings.


As far as I know at every level at every meet, mainly safety driven, track behavior, changes since last race, incidents from last race, changes and updates since last visit; so in ref to international series, a years gap. new or revised track furniture, race directors notes and so on
Plus football refs do meet with the managers and captains before all football matches. OK, rules aren't changing in the same way, but they do have the chance to discuss things.
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F1 Racer
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by F1 Racer »

shoot999 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:Is there always a meeting between race control and the drivers, every race weekend without fail?

If so, why? I mean you don't get the referee of a football match, meeting with the two teams before the game to tell them about what rules are going to be applied for the match.

Maybe by keeping some corners policed for track limits and some corners not policed, it helps create some 'content' that justifies holding these driver meetings each time, as race control create a need for something to inform the drivers about.

That's not to say that there shouldn't be a meeting on the odd weekend if there is actually something relevant that needs to be told to the drivers, but it seems like there is the feeling of the need for a habitual meeting that takes place come what may, and track limits is often a topic that is covered in these meetings.


As far as I know at every level at every meet, mainly safety driven, track behavior, changes since last race, incidents from last race, changes and updates since last visit; so in ref to international series, a years gap. new or revised track furniture, race directors notes and so on
What changes safety-wise from event to event though? The odd change should require an occasional meeting now and again, but it seems to me that they have a meeting at every event regardless, and hence therefore feel the need to 'fill it with something'. Hence the changeable track limit policing for the current weekend helps provide a useful topic that fits this purpose and justifies the meeting. There are likely other safety related things which are basically the same common sense as the previous event that they go over and over, again to help justify the meet.

My point is that these race weekends should surely be standardised enough now to not automatically require these meetings, but if there are some new revelations in safety that keep coming up from event-to-event that I am not aware of then I am of course all ears and happy to be told about these so that I can perhaps change my mind on this. My theory at the moment is that ''the meeting's got to happen so we need to come up with content to talk about in the meeting''. The existence of the meeting seems to be driving the creation of content for said meeting, rather than the occasional creation of legitimate content driving the need for an occasional meeting as and when required. I do not believe that safety changes that much from race-to-race, i.e. it's surely the same old 'follow the flag system', 'activate the VSC procedure at the right time when it shows on your steering wheel', 'use your pit lane speed limiter at the speed limiter line', 'don't overtake behind the safety car', yaddy yaddy yadda; are these drivers assumed to be imbeciles or something? Even if it's something like 'there's bumps on the track' - well it's the same for everyone so just deal with it. If the bumps are really unsafe then race control can get the track resurfaced there and possibly hold a driver meeting to inform them, but this would be an example of the occasional meeting being required.

pokerman
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by pokerman »

Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
shoot999 wrote: As for Vettel, the rules said that you have to be in contact with the track or white line. Vettel wasnt, but was judged to be on track because in their opinion a bit of this tyre was hanging over the white line.
Just for the sake of argument; do you remember the real reason Vettel's time was allowed to stand? I didn't, so I looked it up.

And just in case Pokerman would like to throw in that the race notes allowed people to go slightly wide at the Parabolica, they didn't. I looked it up.
I'm surprised you didn't already know about the Vettel incident?
It is called refreshing one's memory. The original source is always worth re-reading. From the only footage I have seen of Vettel's incident, I can agree with the stewards' verdict.
So you didn't see the picture of Vettel's car with none of the tyres in contact with the track?
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Siao7
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by Siao7 »

Asphalt_World wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:Is there always a meeting between race control and the drivers, every race weekend without fail?

If so, why? I mean you don't get the referee of a football match, meeting with the two teams before the game to tell them about what rules are going to be applied for the match.

Maybe by keeping some corners policed for track limits and some corners not policed, it helps create some 'content' that justifies holding these driver meetings each time, as race control create a need for something to inform the drivers about.

That's not to say that there shouldn't be a meeting on the odd weekend if there is actually something relevant that needs to be told to the drivers, but it seems like there is the feeling of the need for a habitual meeting that takes place come what may, and track limits is often a topic that is covered in these meetings.


As far as I know at every level at every meet, mainly safety driven, track behavior, changes since last race, incidents from last race, changes and updates since last visit; so in ref to international series, a years gap. new or revised track furniture, race directors notes and so on
Plus football refs do meet with the managers and captains before all football matches. OK, rules aren't changing in the same way, but they do have the chance to discuss things.
Football pitches don't change layout though!!! I think it is a good idea that they meet up with the authorities and have a chance to discuss anything they feel like they need clarifications on

Siao7
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by Siao7 »

pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote: No they specify the corners were you will be penalised.
Either you misunderstood what I posted directly from the race notes, or you didn't bother to read what I posted, or you didn't read the race notes from the FIA website directly. But there is no mention about which corners you would be penalised at Pokerman.
Nor did they specify which corners drivers would be allowed to run off the track at. So...?
I've just actually addressed that, going into qualifying was a free for all in respect to track limits so there was no need for the stewards to specify anything.

They just had the one corner were drivers had to return to the track in a specific way.
So "no need to specify anything" = "free to roam outside the track"?
Indeed did you see anyone penalised for it all weekend, did you hear any mention of it from the stewards all weekend, the only thing they had in place was how to return to the track on one corner.
Do you mean that the fact that no one got penalised makes it somehow ok? Blimey, it's the whole freaking argument we have been having for the last 3 pages for god's sake... As an extreme, I imagine that since Senna wasn't penalised in '90, it's ok to ram other people even though there's a rule against it, right?

mikeyg123
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by mikeyg123 »

Drivers shouldn't really need reminding that they aren't allowed to break the rules. Surely people can see the current situation where race control instruct the drivers which of the rules they will actually impose and where.

Edit - I don't blame the drivers as much as I do the stewarding for the current fiasco.

Siao7
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:Drivers shouldn't really need reminding that they aren't allowed to break the rules. Surely people can see the current situation where race control instruct the drivers which of the rules they will actually impose and where.

Edit - I don't blame the drivers as much as I do the stewarding for the current fiasco.
I agree of course. I can almost see it one day someone using it as a defence, "What? I can't crowd others off the track? No one told me before the race..."!!! (joking obviously)

F1 Racer
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by F1 Racer »

Siao7 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:Is there always a meeting between race control and the drivers, every race weekend without fail?

If so, why? I mean you don't get the referee of a football match, meeting with the two teams before the game to tell them about what rules are going to be applied for the match.

Maybe by keeping some corners policed for track limits and some corners not policed, it helps create some 'content' that justifies holding these driver meetings each time, as race control create a need for something to inform the drivers about.

That's not to say that there shouldn't be a meeting on the odd weekend if there is actually something relevant that needs to be told to the drivers, but it seems like there is the feeling of the need for a habitual meeting that takes place come what may, and track limits is often a topic that is covered in these meetings.


As far as I know at every level at every meet, mainly safety driven, track behavior, changes since last race, incidents from last race, changes and updates since last visit; so in ref to international series, a years gap. new or revised track furniture, race directors notes and so on
Plus football refs do meet with the managers and captains before all football matches. OK, rules aren't changing in the same way, but they do have the chance to discuss things.
Football pitches don't change layout though!!! I think it is a good idea that they meet up with the authorities and have a chance to discuss anything they feel like they need clarifications on
F1 tracks rarely change their layout though either. Like hasn't Brazil had one or maybe two slight changes over the last 30 years for example, and in each case the change was fairly minor and the objective for the F1 drivers in reacting to these changes is still to try and take the corner as fast as they possibly can without going off.

Again another change was turn 1 at Hungary, which just made a slightly longer start/finish straight and a tighter turn. Does this require a meeting when the drivers can experience the change when driving round it for the first time?

F1 Racer
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by F1 Racer »

mikeyg123 wrote:Drivers shouldn't really need reminding that they aren't allowed to break the rules. Surely people can see the current situation where race control instruct the drivers which of the rules they will actually impose and where.

Edit - I don't blame the drivers as much as I do the stewarding for the current fiasco.
Exactly my point. These meetings give the stewards a chance to apply subjectivity to the rules, when all they need to do is have no meetings and instead coldly and harshly apply the rules. They don't need to explain themselves to the drivers. The only reason why they are having to explain to the drivers, is because each weekend they keep taking a different approach and application to the rules.

Only meet when there is a specific reason to meet, and apply the rules in an objective way, including things like punishing one driver in a crash between teammates if one driver is predominantly to blame. Please stop being subjective with the application of the rules.

Fiki
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by Fiki »

pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
shoot999 wrote: As for Vettel, the rules said that you have to be in contact with the track or white line. Vettel wasnt, but was judged to be on track because in their opinion a bit of this tyre was hanging over the white line.
Just for the sake of argument; do you remember the real reason Vettel's time was allowed to stand? I didn't, so I looked it up.

And just in case Pokerman would like to throw in that the race notes allowed people to go slightly wide at the Parabolica, they didn't. I looked it up.
I'm surprised you didn't already know about the Vettel incident?
It is called refreshing one's memory. The original source is always worth re-reading. From the only footage I have seen of Vettel's incident, I can agree with the stewards' verdict.
So you didn't see the picture of Vettel's car with none of the tyres in contact with the track?
I saw the footage, and read the stewards' report. They saw images from other cameras and decided there was no clear distinction possible between touching the white line or not. Vettel was given the benefit of the doubt, which I accepted then and now.
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

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Siao7
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by Siao7 »

F1 Racer wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:Is there always a meeting between race control and the drivers, every race weekend without fail?

If so, why? I mean you don't get the referee of a football match, meeting with the two teams before the game to tell them about what rules are going to be applied for the match.

Maybe by keeping some corners policed for track limits and some corners not policed, it helps create some 'content' that justifies holding these driver meetings each time, as race control create a need for something to inform the drivers about.

That's not to say that there shouldn't be a meeting on the odd weekend if there is actually something relevant that needs to be told to the drivers, but it seems like there is the feeling of the need for a habitual meeting that takes place come what may, and track limits is often a topic that is covered in these meetings.


As far as I know at every level at every meet, mainly safety driven, track behavior, changes since last race, incidents from last race, changes and updates since last visit; so in ref to international series, a years gap. new or revised track furniture, race directors notes and so on
Plus football refs do meet with the managers and captains before all football matches. OK, rules aren't changing in the same way, but they do have the chance to discuss things.
Football pitches don't change layout though!!! I think it is a good idea that they meet up with the authorities and have a chance to discuss anything they feel like they need clarifications on
F1 tracks rarely change their layout though either. Like hasn't Brazil had one or maybe two slight changes over the last 30 years for example, and in each case the change was fairly minor and the objective for the F1 drivers in reacting to these changes is still to try and take the corner as fast as they possibly can without going off.

Again another change was turn 1 at Hungary, which just made a slightly longer start/finish straight and a tighter turn. Does this require a meeting when the drivers can experience the change when driving round it for the first time?
That's fair enough, but the second part for me is more important. They obviously have the FPs to get to know the tracks before the race.

shoot999
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by shoot999 »

F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Drivers shouldn't really need reminding that they aren't allowed to break the rules. Surely people can see the current situation where race control instruct the drivers which of the rules they will actually impose and where.

Edit - I don't blame the drivers as much as I do the stewarding for the current fiasco.
Exactly my point. These meetings give the stewards a chance to apply subjectivity to the rules, when all they need to do is have no meetings and instead coldly and harshly apply the rules. They don't need to explain themselves to the drivers. The only reason why they are having to explain to the drivers, is because each weekend they keep taking a different approach and application to the rules.

Only meet when there is a specific reason to meet, and apply the rules in an objective way, including things like punishing one driver in a crash between teammates if one driver is predominantly to blame. Please stop being subjective with the application of the rules.
Just out of interest when a driver runs off the track, what punishment do you see as being appropriate. Or do you see different punishments for different scenarios, corners, etc?

F1 Racer
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by F1 Racer »

shoot999 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Drivers shouldn't really need reminding that they aren't allowed to break the rules. Surely people can see the current situation where race control instruct the drivers which of the rules they will actually impose and where.

Edit - I don't blame the drivers as much as I do the stewarding for the current fiasco.
Exactly my point. These meetings give the stewards a chance to apply subjectivity to the rules, when all they need to do is have no meetings and instead coldly and harshly apply the rules. They don't need to explain themselves to the drivers. The only reason why they are having to explain to the drivers, is because each weekend they keep taking a different approach and application to the rules.

Only meet when there is a specific reason to meet, and apply the rules in an objective way, including things like punishing one driver in a crash between teammates if one driver is predominantly to blame. Please stop being subjective with the application of the rules.
Just out of interest when a driver runs off the track, what punishment do you see as being appropriate. Or do you see different punishments for different scenarios, corners, etc?
Different punishments for about five different scenarios that occur.

Qualifying, it's zero tolerance.

In the race, being forced off by another driver or sliding off in the rain and clearly losing a lot of time does not require a penalty. Braking too late in the dry and going off and clearly losing a lot of time does not require a penalty. Anything else where it's not clear if there was any time loss then apply a penalty. Are there any other scenarios that I am missing?

The type of corner is irrelevant, we are just looking to see if the car strays fully outside of the white lines or not, and this can be applied on all corner types.

Already mentioned a 2 second penalty per offence in the race, (served at a pit stop or added to their race time if late in the race), a lap time deletion for offences in qualifying, or perhaps a 2 second penalty for offences in qualifying to help provide consistency across qualifying and the race.

Siao7
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by Siao7 »

F1 Racer wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Drivers shouldn't really need reminding that they aren't allowed to break the rules. Surely people can see the current situation where race control instruct the drivers which of the rules they will actually impose and where.

Edit - I don't blame the drivers as much as I do the stewarding for the current fiasco.
Exactly my point. These meetings give the stewards a chance to apply subjectivity to the rules, when all they need to do is have no meetings and instead coldly and harshly apply the rules. They don't need to explain themselves to the drivers. The only reason why they are having to explain to the drivers, is because each weekend they keep taking a different approach and application to the rules.

Only meet when there is a specific reason to meet, and apply the rules in an objective way, including things like punishing one driver in a crash between teammates if one driver is predominantly to blame. Please stop being subjective with the application of the rules.
Just out of interest when a driver runs off the track, what punishment do you see as being appropriate. Or do you see different punishments for different scenarios, corners, etc?
Different punishments for about five different scenarios that occur.

Qualifying, it's zero tolerance.

In the race, being forced off by another driver or sliding off in the rain and clearly losing a lot of time does not require a penalty. Braking too late in the dry and going off and clearly losing a lot of time does not require a penalty. Anything else where it's not clear if there was any time loss then apply a penalty. Are there any other scenarios that I am missing?

The type of corner is irrelevant, we are just looking to see if the car strays fully outside of the white lines or not, and this can be applied on all corner types.

Already mentioned a 2 second penalty per offence in the race, (served at a pit stop or added to their race time if late in the race), a lap time deletion for offences in qualifying, or perhaps a 2 second penalty for offences in qualifying to help provide consistency across qualifying and the race.
Yeah, I was thinking something similar:

In case of FPs and Qs, that's easy, write off the time.

In the race, I'd add something like 5 sec, enough deterrent for any driver. Obviously you have other scenarios, that will need to be judged differently (like one car going off track to avoid contact with another).

All instances of a driver "losing the back of the car" or spin or whatever that makes a car go off track will not be punished.

F1 Racer
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by F1 Racer »

Siao7 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Drivers shouldn't really need reminding that they aren't allowed to break the rules. Surely people can see the current situation where race control instruct the drivers which of the rules they will actually impose and where.

Edit - I don't blame the drivers as much as I do the stewarding for the current fiasco.
Exactly my point. These meetings give the stewards a chance to apply subjectivity to the rules, when all they need to do is have no meetings and instead coldly and harshly apply the rules. They don't need to explain themselves to the drivers. The only reason why they are having to explain to the drivers, is because each weekend they keep taking a different approach and application to the rules.

Only meet when there is a specific reason to meet, and apply the rules in an objective way, including things like punishing one driver in a crash between teammates if one driver is predominantly to blame. Please stop being subjective with the application of the rules.
Just out of interest when a driver runs off the track, what punishment do you see as being appropriate. Or do you see different punishments for different scenarios, corners, etc?
Different punishments for about five different scenarios that occur.

Qualifying, it's zero tolerance.

In the race, being forced off by another driver or sliding off in the rain and clearly losing a lot of time does not require a penalty. Braking too late in the dry and going off and clearly losing a lot of time does not require a penalty. Anything else where it's not clear if there was any time loss then apply a penalty. Are there any other scenarios that I am missing?

The type of corner is irrelevant, we are just looking to see if the car strays fully outside of the white lines or not, and this can be applied on all corner types.

Already mentioned a 2 second penalty per offence in the race, (served at a pit stop or added to their race time if late in the race), a lap time deletion for offences in qualifying, or perhaps a 2 second penalty for offences in qualifying to help provide consistency across qualifying and the race.
Yeah, I was thinking something similar:

In case of FPs and Qs, that's easy, write off the time.

In the race, I'd add something like 5 sec, enough deterrent for any driver. Obviously you have other scenarios, that will need to be judged differently (like one car going off track to avoid contact with another).

All instances of a driver "losing the back of the car" or spin or whatever that makes a car go off track will not be punished.
Exactly, there are not that many different scenarios that can actually occur, both here when it comes to exceeding track limits, and also when it comes to overtaking moves and who is to blame in collisions. There are always just a handful of categories of scenario that all incidents can be grouped into. This idea that there are as many scenario possibilities as there atoms in the universe is nonsense, it is easy for the rules to cover pretty much all things that can happen, and if something truly unique does ever occur then this can be written into the rules after it happens, but this will be very rare.

shoot999
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by shoot999 »

F1 Racer wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Drivers shouldn't really need reminding that they aren't allowed to break the rules. Surely people can see the current situation where race control instruct the drivers which of the rules they will actually impose and where.

Edit - I don't blame the drivers as much as I do the stewarding for the current fiasco.
Exactly my point. These meetings give the stewards a chance to apply subjectivity to the rules, when all they need to do is have no meetings and instead coldly and harshly apply the rules. They don't need to explain themselves to the drivers. The only reason why they are having to explain to the drivers, is because each weekend they keep taking a different approach and application to the rules.

Only meet when there is a specific reason to meet, and apply the rules in an objective way, including things like punishing one driver in a crash between teammates if one driver is predominantly to blame. Please stop being subjective with the application of the rules.
Just out of interest when a driver runs off the track, what punishment do you see as being appropriate. Or do you see different punishments for different scenarios, corners, etc?
Different punishments for about five different scenarios that occur.

Qualifying, it's zero tolerance.

In the race, being forced off by another driver or sliding off in the rain and clearly losing a lot of time does not require a penalty. Braking too late in the dry and going off and clearly losing a lot of time does not require a penalty. Anything else where it's not clear if there was any time loss then apply a penalty. Are there any other scenarios that I am missing?

The type of corner is irrelevant, we are just looking to see if the car strays fully outside of the white lines or not, and this can be applied on all corner types.

Already mentioned a 2 second penalty per offence in the race, (served at a pit stop or added to their race time if late in the race), a lap time deletion for offences in qualifying, or perhaps a 2 second penalty for offences in qualifying to help provide consistency across qualifying and the race.
So rather than it is now, basically if its a corner where you lose time no one cares, you would have different punishment levels for practice, qualifying including out laps, and the race. And then you are going to sub divide those punishments by such things as intent, weather, etc. (Not sure why weather should play a part unless its aquaplaning, but you see that as a reasonable excuse so fair enough)).
I do notice you use the phrase 'clearly losing a lot of time'? I think that was one of the arguments that started this off here (although a regular poster he may have been making the point on Racefans), that Ham went off just a bit so obviously didnt lose much time, whereas Max went the car park route. So Ham should be penalised, but not Max. So thats something you are in favour of? And so as to not make this one sided, at COTA Bottas tried to go round the outside of Ham at the end of the straight; and although he ended up off track he came off the corner closer to Ham then when he went into it. So on that occasion; although one could argue he had nowhere else to go, (maybe shouldn't have attempted the overtake) Bottas should receive a 2s/5s penalty?
So no automatic penalties for going off, each will have to be reviewed for time lost or gained, intent, scenario? Sounds like despite what you said earlier, you do like a bit of subjectivity.

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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by F1 Racer »

shoot999 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Drivers shouldn't really need reminding that they aren't allowed to break the rules. Surely people can see the current situation where race control instruct the drivers which of the rules they will actually impose and where.

Edit - I don't blame the drivers as much as I do the stewarding for the current fiasco.
Exactly my point. These meetings give the stewards a chance to apply subjectivity to the rules, when all they need to do is have no meetings and instead coldly and harshly apply the rules. They don't need to explain themselves to the drivers. The only reason why they are having to explain to the drivers, is because each weekend they keep taking a different approach and application to the rules.

Only meet when there is a specific reason to meet, and apply the rules in an objective way, including things like punishing one driver in a crash between teammates if one driver is predominantly to blame. Please stop being subjective with the application of the rules.
Just out of interest when a driver runs off the track, what punishment do you see as being appropriate. Or do you see different punishments for different scenarios, corners, etc?
Different punishments for about five different scenarios that occur.

Qualifying, it's zero tolerance.

In the race, being forced off by another driver or sliding off in the rain and clearly losing a lot of time does not require a penalty. Braking too late in the dry and going off and clearly losing a lot of time does not require a penalty. Anything else where it's not clear if there was any time loss then apply a penalty. Are there any other scenarios that I am missing?

The type of corner is irrelevant, we are just looking to see if the car strays fully outside of the white lines or not, and this can be applied on all corner types.

Already mentioned a 2 second penalty per offence in the race, (served at a pit stop or added to their race time if late in the race), a lap time deletion for offences in qualifying, or perhaps a 2 second penalty for offences in qualifying to help provide consistency across qualifying and the race.
So rather than it is now, basically if its a corner where you lose time no one cares, you would have different punishment levels for practice, qualifying including out laps, and the race. And then you are going to sub divide those punishments by such things as intent, weather, etc. (Not sure why weather should play a part unless its aquaplaning, but you see that as a reasonable excuse so fair enough)).
I do notice you use the phrase 'clearly losing a lot of time'? I think that was one of the arguments that started this off here (although a regular poster he may have been making the point on Racefans), that Ham went off just a bit so obviously didnt lose much time, whereas Max went the car park route. So Ham should be penalised, but not Max. So thats something you are in favour of? And so as to not make this one sided, at COTA Bottas tried to go round the outside of Ham at the end of the straight; and although he ended up off track he came off the corner closer to Ham then when he went into it. So on that occasion; although one could argue he had nowhere else to go, (maybe shouldn't have attempted the overtake) Bottas should receive a 2s/5s penalty?
So no automatic penalties for going off, each will have to be reviewed for time lost or gained, intent, scenario? Sounds like despite what you said earlier, you do like a bit of subjectivity.
Bottas was forced off by Hamilton, so no penalty for Bottas and a penalty for Hamilton is pretty much the correct outcome. If you are forced off by another driver, that other driver is at fault no?

It's pretty obvious when a guy exceeds track limits why this has happened on a particular occasion. It is punishable if there is no justifiable reason for it.

mikeyg123
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by mikeyg123 »

I think the bottom line is if a driver wouldn't be out there if it was gravel rather than tarmac then it's a problem.

Siao7
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:I think the bottom line is if a driver wouldn't be out there if it was gravel rather than tarmac then it's a problem.
Well, it seems that people fixated that the rules should be bent on this one, and I can certainly see the point. I am not sure if they can see what a slippery slope this can be, what do we turn a blind eye to next? A blanket rule for this, as Shoot put it, is pretty much what we have and as such we need to use it. Just not selectively for some corners, some straights.

The scenarios that were mentioned above are really easy to understand, but somehow we need to explain everything. It is getting tedious now

mikeyg123
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by mikeyg123 »

Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:I think the bottom line is if a driver wouldn't be out there if it was gravel rather than tarmac then it's a problem.
Well, it seems that people fixated that the rules should be bent on this one, and I can certainly see the point. I am not sure if they can see what a slippery slope this can be, what do we turn a blind eye to next? A blanket rule for this, as Shoot put it, is pretty much what we have and as such we need to use it. Just not selectively for some corners, some straights.

The scenarios that were mentioned above are really easy to understand, but somehow we need to explain everything. It is getting tedious now
:thumbup:

pokerman
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote: I've just actually addressed that, going into qualifying was a free for all in respect to track limits so there was no need for the stewards to specify anything.

They just had the one corner were drivers had to return to the track in a specific way.
So "no need to specify anything" = "free to roam outside the track"?
Indeed did you see anyone penalised for it all weekend, did you hear any mention of it from the stewards all weekend, the only thing they had in place was how to return to the track on one corner.
Do you mean that the fact that no one got penalised makes it somehow ok? Blimey, it's the whole freaking argument we have been having for the last 3 pages for god's sake... As an extreme, I imagine that since Senna wasn't penalised in '90, it's ok to ram other people even though there's a rule against it, right?
No the fact that no one got penalised explains why Hamilton didn't get penalised, after all this is were it all started with Fiki saying that Hamilton's lap should have been deleted and me trying to explain why it wasn't deleted, and how the stewards operate, and Fiki it seems still arguing that his lap should be deleted which in this round of posts I was initially replying to.
Last edited by pokerman on Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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pokerman
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Drivers shouldn't really need reminding that they aren't allowed to break the rules. Surely people can see the current situation where race control instruct the drivers which of the rules they will actually impose and where.

Edit - I don't blame the drivers as much as I do the stewarding for the current fiasco.
I agree of course. I can almost see it one day someone using it as a defence, "What? I can't crowd others off the track? No one told me before the race..."!!! (joking obviously)
Well it wasn't a defence that Leclerc needed at Monza.
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pokerman
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by pokerman »

Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote: I'm surprised you didn't already know about the Vettel incident?
It is called refreshing one's memory. The original source is always worth re-reading. From the only footage I have seen of Vettel's incident, I can agree with the stewards' verdict.
So you didn't see the picture of Vettel's car with none of the tyres in contact with the track?
I saw the footage, and read the stewards' report. They saw images from other cameras and decided there was no clear distinction possible between touching the white line or not. Vettel was given the benefit of the doubt, which I accepted then and now.
So that would be a no you didn't see the picture that showed Vettel's car to be completely off the track, the link to the image was posted on here at the time of the debate.
Last edited by pokerman on Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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pokerman
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
shoot999 wrote: As far as I know at every level at every meet, mainly safety driven, track behavior, changes since last race, incidents from last race, changes and updates since last visit; so in ref to international series, a years gap. new or revised track furniture, race directors notes and so on
Plus football refs do meet with the managers and captains before all football matches. OK, rules aren't changing in the same way, but they do have the chance to discuss things.
Football pitches don't change layout though!!! I think it is a good idea that they meet up with the authorities and have a chance to discuss anything they feel like they need clarifications on
F1 tracks rarely change their layout though either. Like hasn't Brazil had one or maybe two slight changes over the last 30 years for example, and in each case the change was fairly minor and the objective for the F1 drivers in reacting to these changes is still to try and take the corner as fast as they possibly can without going off.

Again another change was turn 1 at Hungary, which just made a slightly longer start/finish straight and a tighter turn. Does this require a meeting when the drivers can experience the change when driving round it for the first time?
That's fair enough, but the second part for me is more important. They obviously have the FPs to get to know the tracks before the race.
In FP the times are offically recorded, if times are not deleted at that point then that sets the standard for the rest of the meeting.
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pokerman
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Drivers shouldn't really need reminding that they aren't allowed to break the rules. Surely people can see the current situation where race control instruct the drivers which of the rules they will actually impose and where.

Edit - I don't blame the drivers as much as I do the stewarding for the current fiasco.
Exactly my point. These meetings give the stewards a chance to apply subjectivity to the rules, when all they need to do is have no meetings and instead coldly and harshly apply the rules. They don't need to explain themselves to the drivers. The only reason why they are having to explain to the drivers, is because each weekend they keep taking a different approach and application to the rules.

Only meet when there is a specific reason to meet, and apply the rules in an objective way, including things like punishing one driver in a crash between teammates if one driver is predominantly to blame. Please stop being subjective with the application of the rules.
Just out of interest when a driver runs off the track, what punishment do you see as being appropriate. Or do you see different punishments for different scenarios, corners, etc?
Different punishments for about five different scenarios that occur.

Qualifying, it's zero tolerance.

In the race, being forced off by another driver or sliding off in the rain and clearly losing a lot of time does not require a penalty. Braking too late in the dry and going off and clearly losing a lot of time does not require a penalty. Anything else where it's not clear if there was any time loss then apply a penalty. Are there any other scenarios that I am missing?

The type of corner is irrelevant, we are just looking to see if the car strays fully outside of the white lines or not, and this can be applied on all corner types.

Already mentioned a 2 second penalty per offence in the race, (served at a pit stop or added to their race time if late in the race), a lap time deletion for offences in qualifying, or perhaps a 2 second penalty for offences in qualifying to help provide consistency across qualifying and the race.
Yeah, I was thinking something similar:

In case of FPs and Qs, that's easy, write off the time.

In the race, I'd add something like 5 sec, enough deterrent for any driver. Obviously you have other scenarios, that will need to be judged differently (like one car going off track to avoid contact with another).

All instances of a driver "losing the back of the car" or spin or whatever that makes a car go off track will not be punished.
I see you've already answered my question above in this post, if they delete times in practice then there's no excuse that can be made for the drivers having their times deleted in qualifying.

As for in the race I think you're being rather draconian, the system already in place allows the drivers to abuse track limits 3 times before a 5 second penalty is administered, as opposed to punishing a driver 5 seconds for making a mistake that only gains him a few tenths.
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Siao7
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by Siao7 »

pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote: I've just actually addressed that, going into qualifying was a free for all in respect to track limits so there was no need for the stewards to specify anything.

They just had the one corner were drivers had to return to the track in a specific way.
So "no need to specify anything" = "free to roam outside the track"?
Indeed did you see anyone penalised for it all weekend, did you hear any mention of it from the stewards all weekend, the only thing they had in place was how to return to the track on one corner.
Do you mean that the fact that no one got penalised makes it somehow ok? Blimey, it's the whole freaking argument we have been having for the last 3 pages for god's sake... As an extreme, I imagine that since Senna wasn't penalised in '90, it's ok to ram other people even though there's a rule against it, right?
No the fact that no one got penalised explains why Hamilton didn't get penalised, after all this is were it all started with Fiki saying that Hamilton's lap should have been deleted and me trying to explain why it wasn't deleted, and how the stewards operate, and Fiki it seems still arguing that his lap should be deleted which in this round of posts I was initially replying to.
It may explain it, but two wrongs don't make a right.

Siao7
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by Siao7 »

pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote: I'm surprised you didn't already know about the Vettel incident?
It is called refreshing one's memory. The original source is always worth re-reading. From the only footage I have seen of Vettel's incident, I can agree with the stewards' verdict.
So you didn't see the picture of Vettel's car with none of the tyres in contact with the track?
I saw the footage, and read the stewards' report. They saw images from other cameras and decided there was no clear distinction possible between touching the white line or not. Vettel was given the benefit of the doubt, which I accepted then and now.
So that would be a no you didn't see the picture that showed Vettel's car to be completely off the track, the link to the image was posted on here at the time of the debate.
I think the reason they gave back then is that some part of the wheel itself was above the line (not the rubber, but parts of the wheel), so they argued that they cannot conclusively say that it was outside the track. Although it is not contact with the tarmac, that's what they argued to my understanding. Which is b*llshit, Vettel should have been penalised in my eyes.

Out of interest, do you have that pic Poker?

Siao7
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by Siao7 »

pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Exactly my point. These meetings give the stewards a chance to apply subjectivity to the rules, when all they need to do is have no meetings and instead coldly and harshly apply the rules. They don't need to explain themselves to the drivers. The only reason why they are having to explain to the drivers, is because each weekend they keep taking a different approach and application to the rules.

Only meet when there is a specific reason to meet, and apply the rules in an objective way, including things like punishing one driver in a crash between teammates if one driver is predominantly to blame. Please stop being subjective with the application of the rules.
Just out of interest when a driver runs off the track, what punishment do you see as being appropriate. Or do you see different punishments for different scenarios, corners, etc?
Different punishments for about five different scenarios that occur.

Qualifying, it's zero tolerance.

In the race, being forced off by another driver or sliding off in the rain and clearly losing a lot of time does not require a penalty. Braking too late in the dry and going off and clearly losing a lot of time does not require a penalty. Anything else where it's not clear if there was any time loss then apply a penalty. Are there any other scenarios that I am missing?

The type of corner is irrelevant, we are just looking to see if the car strays fully outside of the white lines or not, and this can be applied on all corner types.

Already mentioned a 2 second penalty per offence in the race, (served at a pit stop or added to their race time if late in the race), a lap time deletion for offences in qualifying, or perhaps a 2 second penalty for offences in qualifying to help provide consistency across qualifying and the race.
Yeah, I was thinking something similar:

In case of FPs and Qs, that's easy, write off the time.

In the race, I'd add something like 5 sec, enough deterrent for any driver. Obviously you have other scenarios, that will need to be judged differently (like one car going off track to avoid contact with another).

All instances of a driver "losing the back of the car" or spin or whatever that makes a car go off track will not be punished.
I see you've already answered my question above in this post, if they delete times in practice then there's no excuse that can be made for the drivers having their times deleted in qualifying.

As for in the race I think you're being rather draconian, the system already in place allows the drivers to abuse track limits 3 times before a 5 second penalty is administered, as opposed to punishing a driver 5 seconds for making a mistake that only gains him a few tenths.
I'm not sure what you mean about the FP, in the end of the day the FP means nothing more than familiarising with the track and getting their setups right. Penalising these times really means nothing to the drivers and teams with respect to the quali/race.

I'm not aware of this rule (in bold), can you point it out please?

I think getting 2-5 secs added for trying to cheekily gain a few tenths is a deterrent enough. If you think about it though, it is not just a few tenths if they do it lap after lap (if they see they can get away with it).

shoot999
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by shoot999 »

The reason Hamilton and every other driver at the last corner didn't get penalised at that corner is that they do not get penalised for going off at corners where they do not gain time. The penalty is the time they already have lost. Its the reason the sausage kerb is placed just before the corner. It stops the drivers opening up the corner.
No one is ever going to invest the time, energy and massive costs associated with policing those corners; which make up the majority of a track, now or in the future. It's a pipe dream and not of any interest to most of those who watch or participate in the sport.
For those small number of corners where its clear abuses can and do take place simple monitoring systems suffice; and the roll out of colour coding has alleviated that issue.
That just leaves very few corners at each track; in the UK its no more than 2 or 3 identifiable corners at the various tracks, that need the hi-tech monitoring systems in place.
It seem the only solution offered by the purist is a simple 'automatic exclusion'. Unfortunately this mantra is then followed by a dozen different categories, sub divisions, and caveats that need to go to stewards for adjudication before we get a grid or race result. The very people who decide a red car at Monza is on track even when its not.

mikeyg123
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by mikeyg123 »

shoot999 wrote:The reason Hamilton and every other driver at the last corner didn't get penalised at that corner is that they do not get penalised for going off at corners where they do not gain time. The penalty is the time they already have lost. Its the reason the sausage kerb is placed just before the corner. It stops the drivers opening up the corner.
No one is ever going to invest the time, energy and massive costs associated with policing those corners; which make up the majority of a track, now or in the future. It's a pipe dream and not of any interest to most of those who watch or participate in the sport.
For those small number of corners where its clear abuses can and do take place simple monitoring systems suffice; and the roll out of colour coding has alleviated that issue.
That just leaves very few corners at each track; in the UK its no more than 2 or 3 identifiable corners at the various tracks, that need the hi-tech monitoring systems in place.
It seem the only solution offered by the purist is a simple 'automatic exclusion'. Unfortunately this mantra is then followed by a dozen different categories, sub divisions, and caveats that need to go to stewards for adjudication before we get a grid or race result. The very people who decide a red car at Monza is on track even when its not.
The thing to keep in mind is that there should be gravel there.

There only isn't because of recent safety measures.

Either bring back that gravel or have some way of simulating the time that would have been lost with gravel. Hamilton shouldn't be able to set the fastest lap of qualifying on a lap where he made a mistake that would have cost him many seconds in years gone by. How easy do we want to make F1?

Siao7
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Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by Siao7 »

shoot999 wrote:The reason Hamilton and every other driver at the last corner didn't get penalised at that corner is that they do not get penalised for going off at corners where they do not gain time. The penalty is the time they already have lost. Its the reason the sausage kerb is placed just before the corner. It stops the drivers opening up the corner.
No one is ever going to invest the time, energy and massive costs associated with policing those corners; which make up the majority of a track, now or in the future. It's a pipe dream and not of any interest to most of those who watch or participate in the sport.
For those small number of corners where its clear abuses can and do take place simple monitoring systems suffice; and the roll out of colour coding has alleviated that issue.
That just leaves very few corners at each track; in the UK its no more than 2 or 3 identifiable corners at the various tracks, that need the hi-tech monitoring systems in place.
It seem the only solution offered by the purist is a simple 'automatic exclusion'. Unfortunately this mantra is then followed by a dozen different categories, sub divisions, and caveats that need to go to stewards for adjudication before we get a grid or race result. The very people who decide a red car at Monza is on track even when its not.
I do enjoy this discussion shoot, even if we disagree!

The time that they have lost, it is just not a valid argument in my view. As an extreme example, as they rules stand, even 1 mm of wheel contact with the white line is legal (Monza or not!). 1 mm off the white line should be a penalty. Would you say that they lost so much time that they don't need to be penalised by being a mere 2 mm away? Not really, it would be ridiculous.

Also remember that the drivers already enjoy a very big privilege but allowing them to go off track with two wheels, gaining the best part of the car's width (almost 2m). It effectively makes the track almost 4m wider overall (walls excluded!). To try and abuse it by going further outside and then cry that it is unfair, well this is just absurd.

I think that they do gain time, otherwise why do they do it? Please don't say because they push again, as they push in order to go faster, to gain time, it is the whole idea of racing. If they had to slow down/lift/not go flat out in order to take the corner as they should, i.e. within the track, then they would go slower than going flat out but off the track. So you can't really say that they don't gain time, can you? It also has the inherent risk that they can lose the car off the track, yet they still do it. There must be something to gain. Please note that this is not the same for every corner obviously.

Can i ask if you have another solution than the "automatic exclusion" (of just that lap time)? Do we now prefer 0 punishment for breaking a rule? I think it is a very good solution for Qualis, their best "legal" time still stands, the one that was achieved by going off track should be written off. What is so weird about this?

I agree wholeheartedly that policing this can be expensive and they may just ignore it altogether, although it doesn't have to be super expensive. But then they will have to change the rule, as it is farcical to say one thing in the rules and do another in practice. Oh man, it feels like we are going in circles now

Siao7
Posts: 8385
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:The reason Hamilton and every other driver at the last corner didn't get penalised at that corner is that they do not get penalised for going off at corners where they do not gain time. The penalty is the time they already have lost. Its the reason the sausage kerb is placed just before the corner. It stops the drivers opening up the corner.
No one is ever going to invest the time, energy and massive costs associated with policing those corners; which make up the majority of a track, now or in the future. It's a pipe dream and not of any interest to most of those who watch or participate in the sport.
For those small number of corners where its clear abuses can and do take place simple monitoring systems suffice; and the roll out of colour coding has alleviated that issue.
That just leaves very few corners at each track; in the UK its no more than 2 or 3 identifiable corners at the various tracks, that need the hi-tech monitoring systems in place.
It seem the only solution offered by the purist is a simple 'automatic exclusion'. Unfortunately this mantra is then followed by a dozen different categories, sub divisions, and caveats that need to go to stewards for adjudication before we get a grid or race result. The very people who decide a red car at Monza is on track even when its not.
The thing to keep in mind is that there should be gravel there.

There only isn't because of recent safety measures.

Either bring back that gravel or have some way of simulating the time that would have been lost with gravel. Hamilton shouldn't be able to set the fastest lap of qualifying on a lap where he made a mistake that would have cost him many seconds in years gone by. How easy do we want to make F1?
Well, as it was pointed out, other series use the tracks and gravel can't be put everywhere. Maybe use ice around the track!

pokerman
Posts: 34525
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thr

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote: Indeed did you see anyone penalised for it all weekend, did you hear any mention of it from the stewards all weekend, the only thing they had in place was how to return to the track on one corner.
Do you mean that the fact that no one got penalised makes it somehow ok? Blimey, it's the whole freaking argument we have been having for the last 3 pages for god's sake... As an extreme, I imagine that since Senna wasn't penalised in '90, it's ok to ram other people even though there's a rule against it, right?
No the fact that no one got penalised explains why Hamilton didn't get penalised, after all this is were it all started with Fiki saying that Hamilton's lap should have been deleted and me trying to explain why it wasn't deleted, and how the stewards operate, and Fiki it seems still arguing that his lap should be deleted which in this round of posts I was initially replying to.
It may explain it, but two wrongs don't make a right.
Neither does singling out someone to be penalised whilst others are being let off.
Last edited by pokerman on Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

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