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mikeyg123 wrote:

Black_Flag_11 wrote:

Exediron wrote:

Rockie wrote:

Exediron wrote: I think he may have been. As I noted, I voted against him for the incident, not for any lack of pace. I expect others feel the same.

But you voted for Hamilton the double standards never ceases to amaze.

I don't see the two incidents as equivalent. Hamilton (and Ricciardo) made a sloppy racing move, but Vettel did something inexcusably stupid.

I disagree, he was ahead and tried to squeeze Leclerc to the inside. We see that almost every race.

You could argue he did it too early or too aggressively but that would fall firmly into the category of sloppy racing move, since the driver further ahead while side by side dictating the line is something we see frequently.

It's not in any rulebook but it's standard driving practice and while Vettel instigated the contact and is therefore at fault I dont think Leclerc is totally innocent. I firmly believe for example if it were Verstappen doing that exact thing in that scenario there wouldn't have been a crash, Leclerc would have moved with the squeeze.

Look at this clip at around 52-54 seconds. Leclerc doesn't really have time to react to Vettel moving across they're too close to begin with.

I dont think that's true, Leclerc does react and begins to move over, so he clearly knew what Vettel was doing, but then doesn't continue to move with the squeeze.

I've actually seen some stills now which show that just before the contact Leclerc turns slightly towards Vettel so at the point of contact the 2 drivers are turning towards each other, in other words they are probably as bad as one another.

Since Austria it has to be said that Leclerc's driving has not been the cleanest and then you have him and Vettel in the same team, good luck with that.

pokerman wrote:I've actually seen some stills now which show that just before the contact Leclerc turns slightly towards Vettel so at the point of contact the 2 drivers are turning towards each other, in other words they are probably as bad as one another.

Since Austria it has to be said that Leclerc's driving has not been the cleanest and then you have him and Vettel in the same team, good luck with that.

Here you go.

http://www.kepfeltoltes.eu/images/2019/ ... 11_18_.jpg

Rockie wrote:

pokerman wrote:I've actually seen some stills now which show that just before the contact Leclerc turns slightly towards Vettel so at the point of contact the 2 drivers are turning towards each other, in other words they are probably as bad as one another.

Since Austria it has to be said that Leclerc's driving has not been the cleanest and then you have him and Vettel in the same team, good luck with that.

Here you go.

http://www.kepfeltoltes.eu/images/2019/ ... 11_18_.jpg

Yeah that's what I saw and even more obvious when enlarged.

Rockie wrote:

pokerman wrote:I've actually seen some stills now which show that just before the contact Leclerc turns slightly towards Vettel so at the point of contact the 2 drivers are turning towards each other, in other words they are probably as bad as one another.

Since Austria it has to be said that Leclerc's driving has not been the cleanest and then you have him and Vettel in the same team, good luck with that.

Here you go.

http://www.kepfeltoltes.eu/images/2019/ ... 11_18_.jpg

Even though I thought at first Vettel was more at fault, i thought there may be a reason why it didn't get investigated further. When i look at this, i have to say that i think they are both responsible. When watching replays of it, it looks like vettel does not steer left, but is rather pointing left as he comes out the previous corner. There was no need for this, but why did Leclerc stop giving space and actually for a brief moment did the opposite? No further investigation is certainly the right decision now IMO. And over the weekend in team mate wars, I'll certainly go for Vettel now. It is just Stroll and Perez I am unsure about. Once I have decided, I will vote them all.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Rockie wrote:

pokerman wrote:I've actually seen some stills now which show that just before the contact Leclerc turns slightly towards Vettel so at the point of contact the 2 drivers are turning towards each other, in other words they are probably as bad as one another.

Since Austria it has to be said that Leclerc's driving has not been the cleanest and then you have him and Vettel in the same team, good luck with that.

Here you go.

http://www.kepfeltoltes.eu/images/2019/ ... 11_18_.jpg

Even though I thought at first Vettel was more at fault, i thought there may be a reason why it didn't get investigated further. When i look at this, i have to say that i think they are both responsible. When watching replays of it, it looks like vettel does not steer left, but is rather pointing left as he comes out the previous corner. There was no need for this, but why did Leclerc stop giving space and actually for a brief moment did the opposite? No further investigation is certainly the right decision now IMO. And over the weekend in team mate wars, I'll certainly go for Vettel now. It is just Stroll and Perez I am unsure about. Once I have decided, I will vote them all.

Further evidence comes to light that this might not have been the case, as Vettel's car goes past Leclerc gets some buffering and his steering is going both left and right, somebody takes a screenshot just as his steering has gone right, a Vettel supporter perhaps?

Anyway I'm not sure you are right that Vettel didn't turn left, that's certainly was the case.

pokerman wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Rockie wrote:

pokerman wrote:I've actually seen some stills now which show that just before the contact Leclerc turns slightly towards Vettel so at the point of contact the 2 drivers are turning towards each other, in other words they are probably as bad as one another.

Since Austria it has to be said that Leclerc's driving has not been the cleanest and then you have him and Vettel in the same team, good luck with that.

Here you go.

http://www.kepfeltoltes.eu/images/2019/ ... 11_18_.jpg

Even though I thought at first Vettel was more at fault, i thought there may be a reason why it didn't get investigated further. When i look at this, i have to say that i think they are both responsible. When watching replays of it, it looks like vettel does not steer left, but is rather pointing left as he comes out the previous corner. There was no need for this, but why did Leclerc stop giving space and actually for a brief moment did the opposite? No further investigation is certainly the right decision now IMO. And over the weekend in team mate wars, I'll certainly go for Vettel now. It is just Stroll and Perez I am unsure about. Once I have decided, I will vote them all.

Further evidence comes to light that this might not have been the case, as Vettel's car goes past Leclerc gets some buffering and his steering is going both left and right, somebody takes a screenshot just as his steering has gone right, a Vettel supporter perhaps?

Anyway I'm not sure you are right that Vettel didn't turn left, that's certainly was the case.

I don't think he did. I think he angled his car left out the corner to bigin with and didn't look to do it again. He was going towards the left side of the track. But I don't think he actually does "turn left" when Leclerc is along side. At least that is what he says. But there is some evidence that Leclerc does stop leaving room by the look of it.

https://www.racefans.net/2019/11/19/vet ... o-Leclerc/

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

pokerman wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Rockie wrote:

pokerman wrote:I've actually seen some stills now which show that just before the contact Leclerc turns slightly towards Vettel so at the point of contact the 2 drivers are turning towards each other, in other words they are probably as bad as one another.

Since Austria it has to be said that Leclerc's driving has not been the cleanest and then you have him and Vettel in the same team, good luck with that.

Here you go.

http://www.kepfeltoltes.eu/images/2019/ ... 11_18_.jpg

Even though I thought at first Vettel was more at fault, i thought there may be a reason why it didn't get investigated further. When i look at this, i have to say that i think they are both responsible. When watching replays of it, it looks like vettel does not steer left, but is rather pointing left as he comes out the previous corner. There was no need for this, but why did Leclerc stop giving space and actually for a brief moment did the opposite? No further investigation is certainly the right decision now IMO. And over the weekend in team mate wars, I'll certainly go for Vettel now. It is just Stroll and Perez I am unsure about. Once I have decided, I will vote them all.

Further evidence comes to light that this might not have been the case, as Vettel's car goes past Leclerc gets some buffering and his steering is going both left and right, somebody takes a screenshot just as his steering has gone right, a Vettel supporter perhaps?

Anyway I'm not sure you are right that Vettel didn't turn left, that's certainly was the case.

I don't think he did. I think he angled his car left out the corner to bigin with and didn't look to do it again. He was going towards the left side of the track. But I don't think he actually does "turn left" when Leclerc is along side. At least that is what he says. But there is some evidence that Leclerc does stop leaving room by the look of it.

https://www.racefans.net/2019/11/19/vet ... o-Leclerc/

Vettel has a weird sense of what it means to drive in a straight line when his car is veering away from the edge of the track and did he not see Leclerc's car as he was getting ever near to it?

Looking at the stills with the first two Leclerc is driving in a straight line, the last two before the contact his car is veering to the left, make of that what you will.

pokerman wrote: Vettel has a weird sense of what it means to drive in a straight line when his car is veering away from the edge of the track and did he not see Leclerc's car as he was getting ever near to it?

Looking at the stills with the first two Leclerc is driving in a straight line, the last two before the contact his car is veering to the left, make of that what you will.

No driver on that straight drives parallel to the white lines as you can see from the line of the Redbull in front also Leclerc veered to the right and not left at the moment of impact.

pokerman wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

pokerman wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Rockie wrote:
Here you go.

http://www.kepfeltoltes.eu/images/2019/ ... 11_18_.jpg

Even though I thought at first Vettel was more at fault, i thought there may be a reason why it didn't get investigated further. When i look at this, i have to say that i think they are both responsible. When watching replays of it, it looks like vettel does not steer left, but is rather pointing left as he comes out the previous corner. There was no need for this, but why did Leclerc stop giving space and actually for a brief moment did the opposite? No further investigation is certainly the right decision now IMO. And over the weekend in team mate wars, I'll certainly go for Vettel now. It is just Stroll and Perez I am unsure about. Once I have decided, I will vote them all.

Further evidence comes to light that this might not have been the case, as Vettel's car goes past Leclerc gets some buffering and his steering is going both left and right, somebody takes a screenshot just as his steering has gone right, a Vettel supporter perhaps?

Anyway I'm not sure you are right that Vettel didn't turn left, that's certainly was the case.

I don't think he did. I think he angled his car left out the corner to bigin with and didn't look to do it again. He was going towards the left side of the track. But I don't think he actually does "turn left" when Leclerc is along side. At least that is what he says. But there is some evidence that Leclerc does stop leaving room by the look of it.

https://www.racefans.net/2019/11/19/vet ... o-Leclerc/

Vettel has a weird sense of what it means to drive in a straight line when his car is veering away from the edge of the track and did he not see Leclerc's car as he was getting ever near to it?

Looking at the stills with the first two Leclerc is driving in a straight line, the last two before the contact his car is veering to the left, make of that what you will.

Think about the definition of a straight line though... He did not turn in when Leclerc was there. He was already going that angle accorss the track and just kept doign so. i'm not totally sure why he did it, but I'm also not sure why Leclerc initially avoided him and then stopped moving away. To me it was Leclerc who changed his line. Vettel looked to be going straight. And what i mean by that is that he was going a constant direction. Leclerc did move more to me. I've got to agree with Rockie here in the post above. Vettel did move more than he needed to, but no drivers stay on that line. Vettel IMO did not change direction, but he was moving accross the track.

Vettel was saying that he was driving in a straight line. Even if it was at an angle, I think he is still correct.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:Think about the definition of a straight line though... He did not turn in when Leclerc was there. He was already going that angle accorss the track and just kept doign so. i'm not totally sure why he did it, but I'm also not sure why Leclerc initially avoided him and then stopped moving away. To me it was Leclerc who changed his line. Vettel looked to be going straight. And what i mean by that is that he was going a constant direction. Leclerc did move more to me. I've got to agree with Rockie here in the post above. Vettel did move more than he needed to, but no drivers stay on that line. Vettel IMO did not change direction, but he was moving accross the track.

Vettel was saying that he was driving in a straight line. Even if it was at an angle, I think he is still correct.

Playing devil's advocate here but if one is angling across the track when another car is alongside, shouldn't one assume the responsibility to correct that?

tootsie323 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:Think about the definition of a straight line though... He did not turn in when Leclerc was there. He was already going that angle accorss the track and just kept doign so. i'm not totally sure why he did it, but I'm also not sure why Leclerc initially avoided him and then stopped moving away. To me it was Leclerc who changed his line. Vettel looked to be going straight. And what i mean by that is that he was going a constant direction. Leclerc did move more to me. I've got to agree with Rockie here in the post above. Vettel did move more than he needed to, but no drivers stay on that line. Vettel IMO did not change direction, but he was moving accross the track.

Vettel was saying that he was driving in a straight line. Even if it was at an angle, I think he is still correct.

Playing devil's advocate here but if one is angling across the track when another car is alongside, shouldn't one assume the responsibility to correct that?

Yes, i think Vettel should have corrected this. But the thing is, Leclerc moved out the way once, then stuck there. He has to surely take some blame as vettel continued on his line, Leclerc moved out the way once then didn't move any further left. I still think both have enough input for this for a racing incident to be the correct decision.

Rockie wrote:

pokerman wrote: Vettel has a weird sense of what it means to drive in a straight line when his car is veering away from the edge of the track and did he not see Leclerc's car as he was getting ever near to it?

Looking at the stills with the first two Leclerc is driving in a straight line, the last two before the contact his car is veering to the left, make of that what you will.

No driver on that straight drives parallel to the white lines as you can see from the line of the Redbull in front also Leclerc veered to the right and not left at the moment of impact.

I don't see the evidence that Leclerc turned right.

TheGiantHogweed wrote: Think about the definition of a straight line though... He did not turn in when Leclerc was there. He was already going that angle accorss the track and just kept doign so. i'm not totally sure why he did it, but I'm also not sure why Leclerc initially avoided him and then stopped moving away. To me it was Leclerc who changed his line. Vettel looked to be going straight. And what i mean by that is that he was going a constant direction. Leclerc did move more to me. I've got to agree with Rockie here in the post above. Vettel did move more than he needed to, but no drivers stay on that line. Vettel IMO did not change direction, but he was moving accross the track.

Vettel was saying that he was driving in a straight line. Even if it was at an angle, I think he is still correct.

Almost like Vettel didn't change his direction in Mexico when he drove across the track and put Hamilton on the grass at the start of the race, it's a strange version of what it means to drive in a straight line?

Exediron wrote:Pretty easy this time, depending on how you view a few incidents:

Hamilton over Bottas -- I don't feel like this was Lewis' strongest outing somehow, compounded by his late lunge on Albon. But he was the better Merc driver.
Leclerc over Vettel -- He didn't steer into his teammate on a straight.
Verstappen over Albon -- Drive of the season, to be honest. His moves on Hamilton were incredible, and I think he rattled the 6-time champ quite badly by the end.
Sainz over Norris -- Guys, do you know what that was? That was a smooooooooth operator!
Ricciardo over Magnussen -- Crucially, I don't blame Ricciardo for the incident with Magnussen, considering it a 50/50.
Gasly over Kvyat -- Smashed him, really. Totally in a different league this weekend.
Stroll over Perez -- Probably my least confident pick, but I felt Stroll was having a really strong race until his suspension failure.
Raikkonen over Giovinazzi -- A really good showing from Joe, but I'm taking Kimi on this one.
Grosjean over Magnussen -- Quicker in qualifying, and with the two being pretty equal the 50/50 incident with Danny Ric counts against KMag.
Russel over Kubica -- Credit to Robert for putting up a fight. Not so much for almost hitting Max in the pits.

Well I have re watched the channel 4 highlights now, and I have got to say that i can't understand how Perez has the vast majority of the votes. over 7 times as many.

Stroll got ahead at the start, and the only time Perez was ahead was when the pit stops resulted in this happening, then when they had both pitted, Stroll was back ahead and by 2 positions. The safety car then came out, which helped Perez and then Stroll had his issue. I think it is another case of drivers that are often bad (or have been in the past) just not getting their good drives recognised because something has gone wrong. From that race, I see little reason for anyone to go to Perez now. Qualifying and the safety car restart was the only areas he did better. Stroll outdrove him pace wise pretty much the only time this year and didn't even rely on a mistake from Perez. The number of votes Perez has over Storll this weekend is ridiculous IMO.

I've gone for:

Hamilton - Though some couldn't understand how anyone could possibly vote Bottas, i think i can. As that lunge By hamilton was deemed to be his fault, and had Bottas not retired, he would have actually got a better result. But that would have been lucky. That is the only reason i can think to vote Bottas. otherwise he was comfortably outperformed, though was put on a rubbish strategy. Even worse than hamiltons. And I rally do wonder if them pitting him at a time that would get him out directly behind Leclerc will have actually made his issue come sooner? I guess they wouldn't know this at the time.

Vettel - This was a hard one, but vettel did outperform Leclerc in qualifying and looked better in the race too until the contact. The contact was certainly mainly Vettel's fault, but I can see two reasons why they judged neither as predominantly to blame. Others seem to disagree, but i am certain that i do see Leclerc flick his wheel to the right slightly (not a shake fromt he track, this was before that) I know he also went right, but since Leclerc had started givign him a bit of room and vettel was heading outwards, I'm not sure why he felt the need to stop. He could have kept going and avoided contact. Yes Vettel had no need at all to do this, but i can see both having some blame. But certainly mainly Vettel.
The other reason why i think it may not have got investigated further was because if the stuwards say they judge from the incident and not the after effects (yes i know they are so inconsistent here), you have to say that it was such a tiny contact that most of the time, nothing will have happened. Maybe they looked at it this way and left it at that?

Verstappen - Quite easy really. He had easily the best car, but was really really good all weekend. Kept calm in the pits when williams really got in the way and made up for their mistake which cost him a place without getting too stroppy about it and that having a negative effect on his race. I really though that would happen. But he recovered really well.

Hulkenberg - I've explained before in this thread. Ricciardo was the quicker driver this weekend. But he made a mistake which he was responsible for. As well as getting the 5 second penalty, he suffered the big consequences of his rather common and clumsy lunge. I've said this before about Ricciardo. These moves look good when they work, but he totally relies on other drivers giving him the space, which they don't always have the right to do. If more drivers were more like magnussen and just stuck to the line, ricciardo will have been involved in crashes in his career far more than he is. He's done this sort of think several times this year and found out the hard way. I respect he is very quick, but he should learn from this. Hulkenberg did get a penalty later on yes, but still would have beaten Ricciardo comfortably if not for the safety car bringing him back into the fight. This made Ricciardo's result look better than his race was. ----

Edit:

--- Trying to follow their race (which was hardly ever broadcast) - looking at the graphics, Ricciardo looked to catch and get past Hulkenberg even including his penalty and not the safety car. I already have had people be against me for this. Now I have seen more highlights, I understand now and would change my vote if i could. But looks like some others have gone for Hulkenberg too.


Grosjean - Don't know why there is a single vote for Magnussen. He was outqualified and lost far more positions at the start of the race than Grosjean did. I don't blame him for the crash with
Ricciardo, but he was unfortunate. Grosjean was in the points a grat deal of the race. Before he first pitted, he was as high as 6th. when the safety car came out and he was left out, he was back at 7th again. Very soon after the restart, he had an MGU-K failure, and that is the reason he lost nearly 10 places and finished almost last. Comfortably outperformed his team mated and can only assume people vote for magnussen because he bet him without people looking at the circumstances. Would be like voting for Grosjean at Singapore.

Sainz - I think norris was a bit unlucky, and the opposite for Sainz, but I still certainly think Sainz did the better job given he started at the back of the grid.

Stroll - The most unfairly voted team mate wars I'd say. Stroll was out in Q1 yet again, yes, but he instantly got past Perez and was ahead of him until the safety car other than when pit stops switched their positions. It was only at the safety car restart that Stroll got passed and then his suspension failed.

Raikkonen - didn't really see much of their race, but Kimi was ahead the whole race by the look of it and i don't think Gioinazzi had any bad luck against him.

Gasly - I'll admit i though Kvyat was better than Gasly initially, but Gasly is a totally different driver now compared to the start of the year. Kvyat has made a few mistakes recently, but I'd still say he's been pretty good this year, but for Gasly to beat him in the way he did, this was some special race.

Russell - Don't know if Kubica had a problem or something, but he lost about a second per lap over the first 20 laps to his team mate... I won't judge him for the contact with verstappen at all, but his pace compared to Russell again was really slow.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:The number of votes Perez has over Storll this weekend is ridiculous IMO.

Agreed. We're usually better than that here, but I've noticed it happens with the lower-placed teams: people don't actually pay attention to them in the races, so they just look at the result (Perez qualified and finished ahead) without the context.

Exediron wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:The number of votes Perez has over Storll this weekend is ridiculous IMO.

Agreed. We're usually better than that here, but I've noticed it happens with the lower-placed teams: people don't actually pay attention to them in the races, so they just look at the result (Perez qualified and finished ahead) without the context.

I avoid voting on teams lower down the grid at times just because I can find it hard what’s actually going on in their races, unfortunately.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:I've gone for:

Hulkenberg - I've explained before in this thread. Ricciardo was the quicker driver this weekend. But he made a mistake which he was responsible for. As well as getting the 5 second penalty, he suffered the big consequences of his rather common and clumsy lunge. I've said this before about Ricciardo. These moves look good when they work, but he totally relies on other drivers giving him the space, which they don't always have the right to do. If more drivers were more like magnussen and just stuck to the line, ricciardo will have been involved in more crashes in his carreer far more than he has. he's done this sort of think several times this year and found out the hard way. I respect he is very quick, but he should learn from this. Hulkenberg did get a penalty later on yes, but still would have beated Ricciardo comfortably if not for the safety car bringing him back into the fight. This made Ricciardo's result look better than his race was.

I'm not going to make comment on your critique of Ricciardo's racing style - that's your opinion even though I strongly disagree. What is concerning is you don't seem to have watched his race after that point. By the time Hulkenberg made his second stop, Riccardo was about 3 seconds behind, having already made his second stop. This was before the first safety car. Perhaps you should actually watch the race, then revisit all the other conclusions you came to and edit your post accordingly.

jono794 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:I've gone for:

Hulkenberg - I've explained before in this thread. Ricciardo was the quicker driver this weekend. But he made a mistake which he was responsible for. As well as getting the 5 second penalty, he suffered the big consequences of his rather common and clumsy lunge. I've said this before about Ricciardo. These moves look good when they work, but he totally relies on other drivers giving him the space, which they don't always have the right to do. If more drivers were more like magnussen and just stuck to the line, ricciardo will have been involved in more crashes in his carreer far more than he has. he's done this sort of think several times this year and found out the hard way. I respect he is very quick, but he should learn from this. Hulkenberg did get a penalty later on yes, but still would have beated Ricciardo comfortably if not for the safety car bringing him back into the fight. This made Ricciardo's result look better than his race was.

I'm not going to make comment on your critique of Ricciardo's racing style - that's your opinion even though I strongly disagree. What is concerning is you don't seem to have watched his race after that point. By the time Hulkenberg made his second stop, Riccardo was about 3 seconds behind, having already made his second stop. This was before the first safety car. Perhaps you should actually watch the race, then revisit all the other conclusions you came to and edit your post accordingly.

I wasn't at home when i watched the sky coverage and it kept buffering and stopping on the nowTV app. So I thought I would wait until I watched the highlights. I certainly am against Ricciardo's driving style. Coulthard didn't just blame Ricciardo. He actually called them both a pair of idiots

Regarding the race itself, I maybe am wrong about what allowed him to catch up to Hulkenberg and when i try to follow the graphics on them specifically, it doesn't look like it is anything to do with the safety car, so i am wrong there. I think I would change my vote at this point, although I am not the only one to go for Hulkenberg.