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What caused Ferrari's lack of pace in Austin?
Engine changed to comply with technical directive 59%  59%  [ 27 ]
Circuit does not suit their car 17%  17%  [ 8 ]
Had to avoid kerbs and bumps 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Trialing high downforce setting 7%  7%  [ 3 ]
Sandbagging 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Leclerc ate too much of Binotto's birthday cake 11%  11%  [ 5 ]
Other 7%  7%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 46
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iano
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:05 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Ferrari appeared to be much slower in a straight line in this last race.

This has obviously raised a lot of suspicions with people, giving the timing of the technical clarification that Red Bull requested.

Max Verstappen has outright accused them of cheating, but obviously whether they were or were not it's not something that can ever be proven, other then by circumstantial evidence, such as the connection being made regarding their pace.

However, it's not the only explanation for why they were slow. Austin could have just not suited their car - although with the long straight and Suzuka esses, the circuit style is one you'd expect them to be closer than Leclerc was prior to his fastest lap pit stop.

Of course, it was very bumpy and after Vettel's failure Ferrari instructed Charles to avoid the major kerbs and bumps so that could have compromised his pace, the Ferrari certainly looks more fragile than the Red Bull and the Merc.

One final hypothesis I saw was that Ferrari were experimenting with a higher drag set up - which would make sense given they are out of contention for the championship, they may as well get data on a Merc style set up. They wouldn't be competitive with it as it goes against the philosophy of their car, but they can learn data for tyre wear for next year.

But whether you see it as cheating or a legitimate loophole that's been closed, the engine factor is always going to a suspected by many, but the question is, what do you think caused Ferrari's pace drop off?


If I get the general idea of the poll..
Max accussed Ferrari of cheating, but obviously Max would not really know.

So the idea is to turn from an uninformed guess such as what Max would be doing, to the people who would actually know for sure......us!!
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Blake
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:55 am 
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Yep, you got it, iano
:lol:

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Alienturnedhuman
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:25 am 
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iano wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Ferrari appeared to be much slower in a straight line in this last race.

This has obviously raised a lot of suspicions with people, giving the timing of the technical clarification that Red Bull requested.

Max Verstappen has outright accused them of cheating, but obviously whether they were or were not it's not something that can ever be proven, other then by circumstantial evidence, such as the connection being made regarding their pace.

However, it's not the only explanation for why they were slow. Austin could have just not suited their car - although with the long straight and Suzuka esses, the circuit style is one you'd expect them to be closer than Leclerc was prior to his fastest lap pit stop.

Of course, it was very bumpy and after Vettel's failure Ferrari instructed Charles to avoid the major kerbs and bumps so that could have compromised his pace, the Ferrari certainly looks more fragile than the Red Bull and the Merc.

One final hypothesis I saw was that Ferrari were experimenting with a higher drag set up - which would make sense given they are out of contention for the championship, they may as well get data on a Merc style set up. They wouldn't be competitive with it as it goes against the philosophy of their car, but they can learn data for tyre wear for next year.

But whether you see it as cheating or a legitimate loophole that's been closed, the engine factor is always going to a suspected by many, but the question is, what do you think caused Ferrari's pace drop off?


If I get the general idea of the poll..
Max accussed Ferrari of cheating, but obviously Max would not really know.

So the idea is to turn from an uninformed guess such as what Max would be doing, to the people who would actually know for sure......us!!

Incorrect. The thread and the poll have nothing to do with Max's comments. This is something that was reported at the start of the weekend and Max's comments were made as a reaction to the topic of this thread, they are not the cause of it. Max's comments were given as the most extreme interpretation of the events of the story and I then added alternative explanations in an effort to balance his more widely reported views.

I clarified in my second post (and the third post in this thread) that this is to gauge what people's gut instinct was, as well as open a wider discussion on the matter. So far it's been - bar a couple of off topic jokey comments that have nothing to do with the thread or Ferrari - conducted in a serious, fair and reasonable manner.

I am failing to see what your objection is. That none of us are members of an F1 team and therefore are uninformed can be applied to literally every single F1 technical or sporting debate. This is a discussion forum, not a court of law. Our opinions will not influence any outcomes in the sport, nor will our discussion be the detective work that gets to the bottom of the issue. The thread is to see where people stand now on the issue, and follow the story as it develops. That's what a discussion forum is for.
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Alienturnedhuman
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:01 am 
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iano wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Ferrari appeared to be much slower in a straight line in this last race.

This has obviously raised a lot of suspicions with people, giving the timing of the technical clarification that Red Bull requested.

Max Verstappen has outright accused them of cheating, but obviously whether they were or were not it's not something that can ever be proven, other then by circumstantial evidence, such as the connection being made regarding their pace.

However, it's not the only explanation for why they were slow. Austin could have just not suited their car - although with the long straight and Suzuka esses, the circuit style is one you'd expect them to be closer than Leclerc was prior to his fastest lap pit stop.

Of course, it was very bumpy and after Vettel's failure Ferrari instructed Charles to avoid the major kerbs and bumps so that could have compromised his pace, the Ferrari certainly looks more fragile than the Red Bull and the Merc.

One final hypothesis I saw was that Ferrari were experimenting with a higher drag set up - which would make sense given they are out of contention for the championship, they may as well get data on a Merc style set up. They wouldn't be competitive with it as it goes against the philosophy of their car, but they can learn data for tyre wear for next year.

But whether you see it as cheating or a legitimate loophole that's been closed, the engine factor is always going to a suspected by many, but the question is, what do you think caused Ferrari's pace drop off?


If I get the general idea of the poll..
Max accussed Ferrari of cheating, but obviously Max would not really know.

So the idea is to turn from an uninformed guess such as what Max would be doing, to the people who would actually know for sure......us!!

Furthermore, it's not an uninformed opinion, or a guess. While I think (and hope) that he's wrong, and is ultimately going to be spinning it as the interpretation that best benefits his own team, it is based on and research done by Red Bull into how to fool the fuel flow sensors. Your post seems to suggest that you are completely unaware of the wider topic - although I assume you have not been living in a cave on a remote island with no internet. Autosport published a video yesterday that covers pretty much everything my original post contained here:


Everyone in F1 knows that Ferrari have had a significant power step on their engine, that's not been in doubt. All the teams will know the profile of that power delivery too, from the GPS traces, the sound from the onboard etc etc.

The question the other teams are asking is how have Ferrari achieved that power step? Given the difference they have seen - it's pretty mighty - it has puzzled the other teams because it's not incremental like is usually seen. It suggests Ferrari have found something fundamentally new and different in philosophy, or they a breaking the rules (or both)

The easiest way for any engine to generate more power is to burn more fuel. Also, given that the power from the MGU-K is defined in the regulations, the only way to generate more power from the engine is from the Internal Combustion component. The torque curves of these two components are very different, and all these things combined means that teams can conclude with a reasonable degree of certainty that that is where Ferrari are getting their extra power from. It's not a guess.

Of course, this doesn't answer the question of HOW they are getting more power from their ICE, and it is entirely possible that it's legal, not illegal nor in a grey area. But Red Bull (and all the other teams) have far more data to go on than we do - and they can see the changes to the power delivery that their loophole would have made, so unless this was a possible match with that they were seeing with Ferrari's engine they wouldn't have raised it, because it was pointless. They knew the FIA would say it was illegal - the regulations explicitly say that you can't cheat the sensors and that's what they were asking "can we use this specific technique to cheat the sensors"

Again, this does not prove anything, it's only circumstantial whether or not it's what Ferrari was actually doing. But what it does mean is that going forward the FIA will be looking closely to see if such a system is in place, meaning that if Ferrari had been using such a system they would take it off or deactivate it. Given that this weekend Ferrari's power curve was significantly lower, it's raised eyebrows - but one race is not enough, particularly as Leclerc had an old engine and Vettel's suspension collapsed.

No one can know yet. But as my previous post stated, that's not what this thread is for. It's to see what people think now, and to then follow this story as it develops.
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Covalent
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:07 am 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
mmi16 wrote:
Is the Pope catholic?


No he isn't.

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iano
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:25 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
iano wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Ferrari appeared to be much slower in a straight line in this last race.

This has obviously raised a lot of suspicions with people, giving the timing of the technical clarification that Red Bull requested.

Max Verstappen has outright accused them of cheating, but obviously whether they were or were not it's not something that can ever be proven, other then by circumstantial evidence, such as the connection being made regarding their pace.

However, it's not the only explanation for why they were slow. Austin could have just not suited their car - although with the long straight and Suzuka esses, the circuit style is one you'd expect them to be closer than Leclerc was prior to his fastest lap pit stop.

Of course, it was very bumpy and after Vettel's failure Ferrari instructed Charles to avoid the major kerbs and bumps so that could have compromised his pace, the Ferrari certainly looks more fragile than the Red Bull and the Merc.

One final hypothesis I saw was that Ferrari were experimenting with a higher drag set up - which would make sense given they are out of contention for the championship, they may as well get data on a Merc style set up. They wouldn't be competitive with it as it goes against the philosophy of their car, but they can learn data for tyre wear for next year.

But whether you see it as cheating or a legitimate loophole that's been closed, the engine factor is always going to a suspected by many, but the question is, what do you think caused Ferrari's pace drop off?


If I get the general idea of the poll..
Max accussed Ferrari of cheating, but obviously Max would not really know.

So the idea is to turn from an uninformed guess such as what Max would be doing, to the people who would actually know for sure......us!!

Furthermore, it's not an uninformed opinion, or a guess. While I think (and hope) that he's wrong, and is ultimately going to be spinning it as the interpretation that best benefits his own team, it is based on and research done by Red Bull into how to fool the fuel flow sensors. Your post seems to suggest that you are completely unaware of the wider topic - although I assume you have not been living in a cave on a remote island with no internet. Autosport published a video yesterday that covers pretty much everything my original post contained here:


Everyone in F1 knows that Ferrari have had a significant power step on their engine, that's not been in doubt. All the teams will know the profile of that power delivery too, from the GPS traces, the sound from the onboard etc etc.

The question the other teams are asking is how have Ferrari achieved that power step? Given the difference they have seen - it's pretty mighty - it has puzzled the other teams because it's not incremental like is usually seen. It suggests Ferrari have found something fundamentally new and different in philosophy, or they a breaking the rules (or both)

The easiest way for any engine to generate more power is to burn more fuel. Also, given that the power from the MGU-K is defined in the regulations, the only way to generate more power from the engine is from the Internal Combustion component. The torque curves of these two components are very different, and all these things combined means that teams can conclude with a reasonable degree of certainty that that is where Ferrari are getting their extra power from. It's not a guess.

Of course, this doesn't answer the question of HOW they are getting more power from their ICE, and it is entirely possible that it's legal, not illegal nor in a grey area. But Red Bull (and all the other teams) have far more data to go on than we do - and they can see the changes to the power delivery that their loophole would have made, so unless this was a possible match with that they were seeing with Ferrari's engine they wouldn't have raised it, because it was pointless. They knew the FIA would say it was illegal - the regulations explicitly say that you can't cheat the sensors and that's what they were asking "can we use this specific technique to cheat the sensors"

Again, this does not prove anything, it's only circumstantial whether or not it's what Ferrari was actually doing. But what it does mean is that going forward the FIA will be looking closely to see if such a system is in place, meaning that if Ferrari had been using such a system they would take it off or deactivate it. Given that this weekend Ferrari's power curve was significantly lower, it's raised eyebrows - but one race is not enough, particularly as Leclerc had an old engine and Vettel's suspension collapsed.

No one can know yet. But as my previous post stated, that's not what this thread is for. It's to see what people think now, and to then follow this story as it develops.


The comment on the opinion of max being an uninformed guess relative to us on the forum was intended to be sarcasm.... but although you can mark text bold or italic...i have not found how to mark it as sarcastic.
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Greenman
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:29 am 
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.

I ASSUME (?) that the FIA can go through all the race (and practice date) to see how the Ferrari engine performance has changed over the season, and for the future races to see what the recorded fuel flow/power relationship has been (and will be).

Again, ASSUMING they find something suspicious, are they going to allow Ferrari to keep all their points in both the Constructors and Drivers championships ? Red Bull, at least, would seem to have a fair case for claiming second place in the Constructors ?

-----------

[ edit ]

One thing I didn't understand in the Autosport video was that they thought that Ferrari would be upset if the other teams did call them out over any (putative) cheating ! IF (a big "if") it is found that Ferrari did "cheat" then why should Ferrari feel entitled to be upset about it? Do they feel that they have a right to cheat ?

.


Last edited by Greenman on Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

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shoot999
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:43 am 
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Greenman wrote:
.

I ASSUME (?) that the FIA can go through all the race (and practice date) to see how the Ferrari engine performance has changed over the season, and for the future races to see what the recorded fuel flow/power relationship has been (and will be).

Again, ASSUMING they find something suspicious, are they going to allow Ferrari to keep all their points in both the Constructors and Drivers championships ? Red Bull, at least, would seem to have a fair case for claiming second place in the Constructors ?

.


I was only half listening to a broadcast last night, but from what I gather the way RB went about this was deliberate, in that the route they followed means their will be no investigation, punishments or accusations. And its in everyone's interests, inc Ferrari and RB, for their not to be.

In answer to your edit. All teams push the boundaries; sometimes going over them. So its in everyone's interests to seek clarification on a rule rather than accuse the other guy of cheating. Apart from having to prove it rather than seek a clarification which will stop any apparent 'abuse', there is every chance that the next time this comes up you will be on the receiving end. And who needs a season full of accusations and counter accusations? Although on occasion teams will resort to a formal accusation.


Last edited by shoot999 on Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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pokerman
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:51 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
I think this makes back to back seasons where, as soon as the FIA took steps to "clarify" their approach, they lost performance noticeably. If you recall, the same thing happened when the FIA temporarily installed a second sensor to monitor their battery output last year. So at the very least, it seems that Ferrari are fairly consistently trying to circumvent the regulations. From there, whether or not you choose to call them cheaters is more about semantics.

If that's what they're doing then the powers that will be will look for the issue to quietly go away for the good of the sport, on Ferrari's part they are upset either because they are not guilty or because of how public it's becoming with accusations of cheating, on their part if guilty they perhaps thought the worse that would happen is they agree to stop doing what they're doing and it's all dealt with behind closed doors?

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pokerman
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:04 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
Greenman wrote:
.

I ASSUME (?) that the FIA can go through all the race (and practice date) to see how the Ferrari engine performance has changed over the season, and for the future races to see what the recorded fuel flow/power relationship has been (and will be).

Again, ASSUMING they find something suspicious, are they going to allow Ferrari to keep all their points in both the Constructors and Drivers championships ? Red Bull, at least, would seem to have a fair case for claiming second place in the Constructors ?

.


I was only half listening to a broadcast last night, but from what I gather the way RB went about this was deliberate, in that the route they followed means their will be no investigation, punishments or accusations. And its in everyone's interests, inc Ferrari and RB, for their not to be.

By coincidence I've just posted similar, Ferrari have a special place in F1 and it's better for F1 if they are competitive but I guess there is a limit?

However unfortunately I guess you can't control everything and everybody like Max Verstappen. :)

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Blinky McSquinty
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:15 pm 
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Technically, I can easily think of a method to circumvent the fuel flow regulations. The fuel flow sensors are at least before the fuel rail that leads to each cylinder. If not, you need six individual sensors versus one. At each cylinder the fuel rail leads to a solenoid that opens and closes to regulate the fuel into the combustion chamber. All one has to do is install a hydraulic accumulator into the fuel rail somewhere downstream of the fuel flow sensor. When off-throttle, the fuel is pumped into the accumulator, at the legal flow rate. When on the gas and accelerating the excess fuel now stored in the accumulator is delivered into each cylinder (along with the fuel allowed under the prescribed flow rate), allowing more fuel burn.

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Alienturnedhuman
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:46 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Technically, I can easily think of a method to circumvent the fuel flow regulations. The fuel flow sensors are at least before the fuel rail that leads to each cylinder. If not, you need six individual sensors versus one. At each cylinder the fuel rail leads to a solenoid that opens and closes to regulate the fuel into the combustion chamber. All one has to do is install a hydraulic accumulator into the fuel rail somewhere downstream of the fuel flow sensor. When off-throttle, the fuel is pumped into the accumulator, at the legal flow rate. When on the gas and accelerating the excess fuel now stored in the accumulator is delivered into each cylinder (along with the fuel allowed under the prescribed flow rate), allowing more fuel burn.

The regulations specifically outlaw any device that collects the fuel after the measuring point, whether by design or inconsequentially.
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Blinky McSquinty
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:10 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Technically, I can easily think of a method to circumvent the fuel flow regulations. The fuel flow sensors are at least before the fuel rail that leads to each cylinder. If not, you need six individual sensors versus one. At each cylinder the fuel rail leads to a solenoid that opens and closes to regulate the fuel into the combustion chamber. All one has to do is install a hydraulic accumulator into the fuel rail somewhere downstream of the fuel flow sensor. When off-throttle, the fuel is pumped into the accumulator, at the legal flow rate. When on the gas and accelerating the excess fuel now stored in the accumulator is delivered into each cylinder (along with the fuel allowed under the prescribed flow rate), allowing more fuel burn.

The regulations specifically outlaw any device that collects the fuel after the measuring point, whether by design or inconsequentially.


I stand corrected, FIA Formula One technical regulations ..

5.10.5  Any device, system or procedure the purpose and/or effect of which is to increase the flow  rate or to store and recycle fuel after the measurement point is prohibited.

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Asphalt_World
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:14 pm 
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mmi16 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
mmi16 wrote:
Is the Pope catholic?


No he isn't.

He isn't Jewish or Muslim......


Nor a Catholic I believe. Just sayin'!

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Paolo_Lasardi
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:51 pm 
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Greenman wrote:
.

I ASSUME (?) that the FIA can go through all the race (and practice date) to see how the Ferrari engine performance has changed over the season, and for the future races to see what the recorded fuel flow/power relationship has been (and will be).

Again, ASSUMING they find something suspicious, are they going to allow Ferrari to keep all their points in both the Constructors and Drivers championships ? Red Bull, at least, would seem to have a fair case for claiming second place in the Constructors ?

-----------

[ edit ]

One thing I didn't understand in the Autosport video was that they thought that Ferrari would be upset if the other teams did call them out over any (putative) cheating ! IF (a big "if") it is found that Ferrari did "cheat" then why should Ferrari feel entitled to be upset about it? Do they feel that they have a right to cheat ?

.


Well, if you are used to be allowed to cheat, then you may feel entitled to do so (generally speaking).
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nibaru
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:54 pm 
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The way I understood it was:

Cars are not allowed to exceed a set fuel flow rate.

To check this the fuel flow rate is measured before it enters the plenum. (Where fuel and air mix? before entering engine)

At certain times when under maximum flow rate, a little extra is added through the meter (Which still registers below maximum flow rate)

This fuel somehow stays in the plenum chamber to be used when required. (an undetected reserve)

Add this undetected reserve to the detectable fuel rate and you have more fuel than anybody else and subsequently more power.

Have I explained it correctly?
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Mort Canard
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:00 pm 
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It seems to me that the pace of the Ferrari cars this weekend in Brazil will tell us a lot about whether Team Red has had to give up some extra-legal tricks in response to the Technical Directive. If Vettel & Leclerc are right back there giving Merc and Red Bull fits about their top speed then a lot of folks will shrug off the accusations of cheating. If Ferrari continues it's substandard performance as they did in Austin then a lot of tongues will be set wagging.

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Mercedes-Benz
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:18 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
It could be that they had to make some changes to the car because of the restriction FIA imposed and their car got even worse than expected. 52secs off in a 56lap race is a huge drop in performance compared to Mexico where the difference was only 2secs.

Remember, Leclerc did an extra stop to get the fastest lap, so the true difference is around 30-35 seconds.


I am not sure about that. Because Ferrari are not good on its tyres. So one pitstop probably would make them even slower. I think most teams were on 2 stops. Hamilton, Perez and few driver took 1 stop to make places and have track position.

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Alienturnedhuman
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:02 am 
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Obviously, it's still early in the weekend, but:
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Option or Prime
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:22 am 
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Bearing in mind that there was an additional directive about burning oil in the week it has at least confirmed one thing. That is that the extra power must be an electrical/battery/capacitor feature.
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Mort Canard
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:14 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Obviously, it's still early in the weekend, but:


Nobody has really gotten serious about putting in fast laps. Lewis put in a pole time of 1:07.281 last year. In FP2 Sebastian recorded a 1:09.217, almost 2 seconds slower. If quali is dry I would expect a pole time at least as fast as 2018.

If quali is wet, Ferrari's power advantage won't matter much anyway.

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pokerman
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:58 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Obviously, it's still early in the weekend, but:

However as I've said in another thread, what's happened to the corner speed that they found after the break, all the time they make on the straights they are losing in the corners, let's see what happens in qualifying bearing in mind that after the summer break they have been dominating qualifying.

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Rockie
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:02 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Obviously, it's still early in the weekend, but:


Nobody has really gotten serious about putting in fast laps. Lewis put in a pole time of 1:07.281 last year. In FP2 Sebastian recorded a 1:09.217, almost 2 seconds slower. If quali is dry I would expect a pole time at least as fast as 2018.

If quali is wet, Ferrari's power advantage won't matter much anyway.


What exactly has this got to do with the power being back?

It's not like in the said tweet it says Ferrari were running qualy sims while others have their PU turned down.
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Rockie
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:04 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Bearing in mind that there was an additional directive about burning oil in the week it has at least confirmed one thing. That is that the extra power must be an electrical/battery/capacitor feature.


Alternatively maybe the others were burning oil that's why it seemed Ferrari had lost straight line speed last race and have not been able to burn it this weekend.
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pokerman
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:12 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Bearing in mind that there was an additional directive about burning oil in the week it has at least confirmed one thing. That is that the extra power must be an electrical/battery/capacitor feature.


Alternatively maybe the others were burning oil that's why it seemed Ferrari had lost straight line speed last race and have not been able to burn it this weekend.

Last time there was a directive to cull oil burning, the most affected by this was actually Ferrari.

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Clarky
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:46 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Obviously, it's still early in the weekend, but:

Yet are only 1/10 faster.

They are losing so much through the corners and there aren't many.
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Mort Canard
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:21 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Obviously, it's still early in the weekend, but:


Nobody has really gotten serious about putting in fast laps. Lewis put in a pole time of 1:07.281 last year. In FP2 Sebastian recorded a 1:09.217, almost 2 seconds slower. If quali is dry I would expect a pole time at least as fast as 2018.

If quali is wet, Ferrari's power advantage won't matter much anyway.


What exactly has this got to do with the power being back?

It's not like in the said tweet it says Ferrari were running qualy sims while others have their PU turned down.


You can't say how much of maximum each team is running. Do you believe that everyone is running exactly the same percentage of their maximum.

Even looking at the power hungry sector three you can't tell yet how much power Ferrari has available versus Merc and RBR since everyone is going 2 seconds per lap slower than what they will probably go in quali. If two of the big three go 1.8 seconds quicker in quali and the othre team actually goes 2 seconds quicker, guess who gets the pole.

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Rockie
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:23 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Bearing in mind that there was an additional directive about burning oil in the week it has at least confirmed one thing. That is that the extra power must be an electrical/battery/capacitor feature.


Alternatively maybe the others were burning oil that's why it seemed Ferrari had lost straight line speed last race and have not been able to burn it this weekend.

Last time there was a directive to cull oil burning, the most affected by this was actually Ferrari.


Well this time it's not Ferrari so the theory still stands.
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pokerman
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:20 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Bearing in mind that there was an additional directive about burning oil in the week it has at least confirmed one thing. That is that the extra power must be an electrical/battery/capacitor feature.


Alternatively maybe the others were burning oil that's why it seemed Ferrari had lost straight line speed last race and have not been able to burn it this weekend.

Last time there was a directive to cull oil burning, the most affected by this was actually Ferrari.


Well this time it's not Ferrari so the theory still stands.

You've lost me on that one, Last time out in Austin Ferrari actually turned Vettel's engine down because of what happened to Leclerc's engine whilst Leclerc ran an old engine.

In Brazil Ferrari's straight line advantage seems to be like before but the car is slow in the corners, so we seem to be back to a situation we had much earlier in the season.

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pokerman
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:22 pm 
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Clarky wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Obviously, it's still early in the weekend, but:

Yet are only 1/10 faster.

They are losing so much through the corners and there aren't many.

Indeed whilst in Austin it was said they were losing little time in the corners, what happened to the car that post summer break was so much better in the corners?

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F1_Ernie
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:30 am 
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If true then Ferrari have lost their engine advantage from practice to qualifying for the second race in a row.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... n-ferrari/

Ferrari on the straights slower than usual

Although Ferrari scored the highest top speed with 331.3 km / h, it was not as fast on the sum of all straights as on other races of the season and also on Friday practice and the third practice session in the morning. Charles Leclerc took the Red Bull on the straights just a tenth, the Mercedes two. The day before the delta was still seven or eight tenths.

Therefore, it looked as if there could be a protest after qualifying. Red Bull had already been in Austin with a request for clarification on possible engine trickery at the FIA. She had then declared illegal in two technical directives manipulations with the gas flow rate or misuse of coolant for combustion in the engine.

However, Red Bull did not want to do the second step, no matter what the GPS measurements in the qualification would show. "We contributed to our part. Now it's time for Mercedes. They know more about it anyway than we do, "explained sporting director Helmut Marko.

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Mercedes-Benz
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:40 am 
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In a short track like Brazil with not too many corners where Ferrari were suppose to have advantage. Max looked pretty good in all the session :-| But I think the main test will be in the race.

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Asphalt_World
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:50 am 
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Max, fast on the straights and fast in the corners. I'm sure they're infringing on a technical rule somewhere!!!!!!!!!!

Or they may just have a good car and got the set-up spot on!

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Covalent
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:39 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Max, fast on the straights and fast in the corners. I'm sure they're infringing on a technical rule somewhere!!!!!!!!!!

Or they may just have a good car and got the set-up spot on!

Indeed, again Mercedes are being wronged and they're the only non cheating team.

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pokerman
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:50 pm 
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Just a coincidence that since the TD Ferrari have failed to have a pole position were before they were dominant in qualifying being on average 3 tenths clear of the rest?

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JN23
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:57 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Max, fast on the straights and fast in the corners. I'm sure they're infringing on a technical rule somewhere!!!!!!!!!!

Or they may just have a good car and got the set-up spot on!

Indeed, again Mercedes are being wronged and they're the only non cheating team.


Has anyone suggested Red Bull are cheating?
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Alienturnedhuman
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:03 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Max, fast on the straights and fast in the corners. I'm sure they're infringing on a technical rule somewhere!!!!!!!!!!

Or they may just have a good car and got the set-up spot on!

Indeed, again Mercedes are being wronged and they're the only non cheating team.


Has anyone suggested Red Bull are cheating?

Vettel made a mostly joking comment to this effect after qualifying.
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JN23
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:38 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Max, fast on the straights and fast in the corners. I'm sure they're infringing on a technical rule somewhere!!!!!!!!!!

Or they may just have a good car and got the set-up spot on!

Indeed, again Mercedes are being wronged and they're the only non cheating team.


Has anyone suggested Red Bull are cheating?

Vettel made a mostly joking comment to this effect after qualifying.


I meant on this forum as that’s what Covalent seemed to be suggesting.

I did see Vettel’s comment, can always rely on him to make a joke out of the situation.
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j man
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:53 pm 
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So Ferrari go from being utterly untouchable in qualifying to losing pole twice in a row since the FIA's "clarification". I must say, this is looking quite suspicious to me. Downforce / drag levels in car setup seem to be a slightly confounding factor in the straight line speed figures, but the loss of overall lap time is fairly clear to see.
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Asphalt_World
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:29 pm 
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So, why were Mercedes claiming Ferrari had a 0.5 - 0.7 advantage on the start-finish straight alone on Saturday?

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