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Exediron wrote:Here's a good article from RaceFans about the new sensor, which also explains in better detail what Ferrari may have been doing:

"The new device incorporates anti-aliasing technology and full data encryption,” according to Sentronics. “The anti-aliasing technique randomises when the device makes its measurements, ultimately making it impossible to synchronise any ancillary parts to the measurement frequency. Full encryption ensures the authenticity of the data and privacy to the FIA."

It sounds like Ferrari were using some sort of interference to fool with the sensor since they knew its precise measurement intervals.

Ok, I have read the article and it doesn't make it much clearer for me. In fact, I want to know more!!!

The article does not say how they can make it work. The flow meter takes 2,200 measurements per second, so if I understand correctly, Ferrari somehow made the meter measure an "aliased" rate at all these 2,200 instances within a second. How would that be possible? (I am not an elec engineer, so any explanation would be appreciated!) They would need some kind of device to interfere with that signal, at these intervals and to create/show a lower value instead of the actual one? Aliasing is also easily avoided with Anti-Aliasing Filters from what I can gather, so if they had suspicions they could have added some sort of filters to cancel this interference fairly easily.

The article does not say how they did it, only that theoretically it would be possible. Much like saying it is possible in theory to make a flux capacitor, but can't actually make it to prove it.

Also statements like this one "One technician consulted by RaceFans estimated the potential power gained from aliasing could be as much as 50bhp" do not add much to be honest. A guy somewhere said something...

Yes, its one of those articles that seems to say a lot but lacks real information. I may be technically dumb but ignoring testing during the flow of fuel and how you might do it, isn't the point is that if the car is using more fuel to go fast down a straight will there not be less fuel in the tank at the end of the straight. Don't you just measure consumption. I realise the fuels are different but you can't get something for nothing!

Reading through this thread makes one think a lot as a fan of Ferrari myself I have got to wonder why people have not thought of intellectual property?

Ferrari is never going to help the FIA prove any wrongdoing, if you accuse Ferrari of wrongdoing Ferrari has given you the engine to determine that and complied with all test the FIA has done.

Also the other teams are just trying to find out how Ferrari did whatever they did not like they are interested in whether Ferrari is punished.

What is really funny is Mercedes fans annoyed that Ferrari might have pushed Mercedes to develop an unreliable PU which is part of the basis of their unfounded anger.

For people who think FIA can just punish Ferrari without evidence, I suppose such individuals have never been in any form of dispute resolution or involved in any legal case, burden of proof is on the accuser and also who thinks FIA Mercedes or Redbull would be ready for a reputation damage should Ferrari win in court and sue them for unlimited damages to their brand.

Rockie wrote:Reading through this thread makes one think a lot as a fan of Ferrari myself I have got to wonder why people have not thought of intellectual property?

IP rights to an illegal modification are worthless. the FIA see the workings of every car are they likely to break that confidential agreement?

Rockie wrote:For people who think FIA can just punish Ferrari without evidence, I suppose such individuals have never been in any form of dispute resolution or involved in any legal case, burden of proof is on the accuser and also who thinks FIA Mercedes or Redbull would be ready for a reputation damage should Ferrari win in court and sue them for unlimited damages to their brand.

Need to get a bit real, its not a criminal trial, Ferrari do more damage to the brand by doing sly deals behind peoples backs. Ferrari themselves are effectively admitting the went too far by doing a deal to cover it up. I suppose you are going to say Ferrari are being hard done by in all this.
Incidentally where are these Mercedes fans? The criticism comes from all the teams with the exception of those that are using Ferrari power units.

Option or Prime wrote: IP rights to an illegal modification are worthless. the FIA see the workings of every car are they likely to break that confidential agreement?

The whistle blowers that are working for a rival now cannot testify without getting them and the new team sued for IP infringement. I cannot see how the FIA could prove any wrongdoings without them, hence the settlement.

guardiangr wrote:

Option or Prime wrote: IP rights to an illegal modification are worthless. the FIA see the workings of every car are they likely to break that confidential agreement?

The whistle blowers that are working for a rival now cannot testify without getting them and the new team sued for IP infringement. I cannot see how the FIA could prove any wrongdoings without them, hence the settlement.

This may be why I'm hearing that Mercedes have backed down from pursuing things further, the compromise going forward is that Ferrari will no longer be allowed their 50hp advantage?

pokerman wrote:

guardiangr wrote:

Option or Prime wrote: IP rights to an illegal modification are worthless. the FIA see the workings of every car are they likely to break that confidential agreement?

The whistle blowers that are working for a rival now cannot testify without getting them and the new team sued for IP infringement. I cannot see how the FIA could prove any wrongdoings without them, hence the settlement.

This may be why I'm hearing that Mercedes have backed down from pursuing things further, the compromise going forward is that Ferrari will no longer be allowed their 50hp advantage?

Is that confirmed? Or the "one guy said something" thing?

Which is what we all want. What dissapoints me is this culture of trying to deceive people such as fellow racers and administrators. I recognise its part of the game but my opinion is that it should come with a risk, and a severe and incontestable risk at that.
Non of this, "its too complicated to explain" business. If its not easily understandable its out of spec.

This is not just Ferrari incidentally, its all teams. Its not about who is the best at cheating but abut who is quickest. If teams can't have racing integrity about building and racing their engines they should ll be given the same and engine and only able to change the chassis, aero and running gear.

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

guardiangr wrote:

Option or Prime wrote: IP rights to an illegal modification are worthless. the FIA see the workings of every car are they likely to break that confidential agreement?

The whistle blowers that are working for a rival now cannot testify without getting them and the new team sued for IP infringement. I cannot see how the FIA could prove any wrongdoings without them, hence the settlement.

This may be why I'm hearing that Mercedes have backed down from pursuing things further, the compromise going forward is that Ferrari will no longer be allowed their 50hp advantage?

Is that confirmed? Or the "one guy said something" thing?

Ok so we now know if this is true a team (perhaps MB) that hired a Ferrari employee broke the law to allege a misconduct by Ferrari? If that is the case then Ferarri would just keep using this "advantage" and take both the team and individual to court which would result in criminal conviction for the employee and huge fines for MB...I think it's all rubbish.

BTW no one talking about the illegal MB car that had to be redesigned for Oz? Let me get this straight, MB had to modify a car they designed because it was illegal, they actually did this...there is no evidence of Ferrari changing its engine or that it was outlawed in anyway.

Hope everyone is safe and healthy...

AstoriaisBACK wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

guardiangr wrote:

Option or Prime wrote: IP rights to an illegal modification are worthless. the FIA see the workings of every car are they likely to break that confidential agreement?

The whistle blowers that are working for a rival now cannot testify without getting them and the new team sued for IP infringement. I cannot see how the FIA could prove any wrongdoings without them, hence the settlement.

This may be why I'm hearing that Mercedes have backed down from pursuing things further, the compromise going forward is that Ferrari will no longer be allowed their 50hp advantage?

Is that confirmed? Or the "one guy said something" thing?

Ok so we now know if this is true a team (perhaps MB) that hired a Ferrari employee broke the law to allege a misconduct by Ferrari? If that is the case then Ferarri would just keep using this "advantage" and take both the team and individual to court which would result in criminal conviction for the employee and huge fines for MB...I think it's all rubbish.

BTW no one talking about the illegal MB car that had to be redesigned for Oz? Let me get this straight, MB had to modify a car they designed because it was illegal, they actually did this...there is no evidence of Ferrari changing its engine or that it was outlawed in anyway.

Hope everyone is safe and healthy...

I think you are maybe paying too much attention to the MB thing. They got a component wrong and amended it, they found out in testing and have fixed the issue since then. There's not much to see really, if nothing else the testing is exactly for this reason, to iron things out

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

guardiangr wrote:

Option or Prime wrote: IP rights to an illegal modification are worthless. the FIA see the workings of every car are they likely to break that confidential agreement?

The whistle blowers that are working for a rival now cannot testify without getting them and the new team sued for IP infringement. I cannot see how the FIA could prove any wrongdoings without them, hence the settlement.

This may be why I'm hearing that Mercedes have backed down from pursuing things further, the compromise going forward is that Ferrari will no longer be allowed their 50hp advantage?

Is that confirmed? Or the "one guy said something" thing?

What do you think the settlement was about, you just keep carrying on doing what you was doing?

Option or Prime wrote:Which is what we all want. What dissapoints me is this culture of trying to deceive people such as fellow racers and administrators. I recognise its part of the game but my opinion is that it should come with a risk, and a severe and incontestable risk at that.
Non of this, "its too complicated to explain" business. If its not easily understandable its out of spec.

This is not just Ferrari incidentally, its all teams. Its not about who is the best at cheating but abut who is quickest. If teams can't have racing integrity about building and racing their engines they should ll be given the same and engine and only able to change the chassis, aero and running gear.

Which will never happen while you have the manufacturers competing and in particular will never happen while you have Ferrari competing.

I believe the closest we came to that scenario was the Ford Cosworth DFV V8 engine but still you had Ferrari with their own engine.

AstoriaisBACK wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

guardiangr wrote:

Option or Prime wrote: IP rights to an illegal modification are worthless. the FIA see the workings of every car are they likely to break that confidential agreement?

The whistle blowers that are working for a rival now cannot testify without getting them and the new team sued for IP infringement. I cannot see how the FIA could prove any wrongdoings without them, hence the settlement.

This may be why I'm hearing that Mercedes have backed down from pursuing things further, the compromise going forward is that Ferrari will no longer be allowed their 50hp advantage?

Is that confirmed? Or the "one guy said something" thing?

Ok so we now know if this is true a team (perhaps MB) that hired a Ferrari employee broke the law to allege a misconduct by Ferrari? If that is the case then Ferarri would just keep using this "advantage" and take both the team and individual to court which would result in criminal conviction for the employee and huge fines for MB...I think it's all rubbish.

BTW no one talking about the illegal MB car that had to be redesigned for Oz? Let me get this straight, MB had to modify a car they designed because it was illegal, they actually did this...there is no evidence of Ferrari changing its engine or that it was outlawed in anyway.

Hope everyone is safe and healthy...

Apart from Ferrari saying they've built a complete new engine?

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

guardiangr wrote:

Option or Prime wrote: IP rights to an illegal modification are worthless. the FIA see the workings of every car are they likely to break that confidential agreement?

The whistle blowers that are working for a rival now cannot testify without getting them and the new team sued for IP infringement. I cannot see how the FIA could prove any wrongdoings without them, hence the settlement.

This may be why I'm hearing that Mercedes have backed down from pursuing things further, the compromise going forward is that Ferrari will no longer be allowed their 50hp advantage?

Is that confirmed? Or the "one guy said something" thing?

What do you think the settlement was about, you just keep carrying on doing what you was doing?

The 50HP, I put it in bold. You mention it like it is a confirmed known fact, when it is not. Just what a guy told RaceFans...

pokerman wrote:

AstoriaisBACK wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

guardiangr wrote:
The whistle blowers that are working for a rival now cannot testify without getting them and the new team sued for IP infringement. I cannot see how the FIA could prove any wrongdoings without them, hence the settlement.

This may be why I'm hearing that Mercedes have backed down from pursuing things further, the compromise going forward is that Ferrari will no longer be allowed their 50hp advantage?

Is that confirmed? Or the "one guy said something" thing?

Ok so we now know if this is true a team (perhaps MB) that hired a Ferrari employee broke the law to allege a misconduct by Ferrari? If that is the case then Ferarri would just keep using this "advantage" and take both the team and individual to court which would result in criminal conviction for the employee and huge fines for MB...I think it's all rubbish.

BTW no one talking about the illegal MB car that had to be redesigned for Oz? Let me get this straight, MB had to modify a car they designed because it was illegal, they actually did this...there is no evidence of Ferrari changing its engine or that it was outlawed in anyway.

Hope everyone is safe and healthy...

Apart from Ferrari saying they've built a complete new engine?

They said they developed the engine, not that it is a complete new engine. It is part of the development, as all teams do. Do you expect them not to develop the engine in the winter break? Weird

Siao7 wrote:They said they developed the engine, not that it is a complete new engine. It is part of the development, as all teams do. Do you expect them not to develop the engine in the winter break? Weird

They also said the new engine is less powerful than the old one. How often does that happen?

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

guardiangr wrote: The whistle blowers that are working for a rival now cannot testify without getting them and the new team sued for IP infringement. I cannot see how the FIA could prove any wrongdoings without them, hence the settlement.

This may be why I'm hearing that Mercedes have backed down from pursuing things further, the compromise going forward is that Ferrari will no longer be allowed their 50hp advantage?

Is that confirmed? Or the "one guy said something" thing?

What do you think the settlement was about, you just keep carrying on doing what you was doing?

The 50HP, I put it in bold. You mention it like it is a confirmed known fact, when it is not. Just what a guy told RaceFans...

I just put the upper number that I heard, if it wasn't sizeable then it never would have been an issue in the first place.

Exediron wrote:

Siao7 wrote:They said they developed the engine, not that it is a complete new engine. It is part of the development, as all teams do. Do you expect them not to develop the engine in the winter break? Weird

They also said the new engine is less powerful than the old one. How often does that happen?

Also Andy Cowell said he expected the performance of the Ferrari not to be as big of a threat this year because of the extra measures being put in place, the bigger threat would be Honda, how does an engine basically lose such a big advantage almost overnight?

pokerman wrote:

Exediron wrote:

Siao7 wrote:They said they developed the engine, not that it is a complete new engine. It is part of the development, as all teams do. Do you expect them not to develop the engine in the winter break? Weird

They also said the new engine is less powerful than the old one. How often does that happen?

Also Andy Cowell said he expected the performance of the Ferrari not to be as big of a threat this year because of the extra measures being put in place, the bigger threat would be Honda, how does an engine basically lose such a big advantage almost overnight?

Sneaky, are you implying that last years engine was out of spec by any chance

Exediron wrote:

Siao7 wrote:They said they developed the engine, not that it is a complete new engine. It is part of the development, as all teams do. Do you expect them not to develop the engine in the winter break? Weird

They also said the new engine is less powerful than the old one. How often does that happen?

This is a fair comment, but they said that their overhaul is down to improved reliability and it is concentrated around the cylinders. And that "less powerful engine" may be down by 10hp for all we know, almost negligible. Too early to say.

We saw it last year, outright power didn't get them far, chassis and down force was a much better tool for Mercedes and RB. They are trying a new approach where they overhaul the engine to extract more reliability and go for a lot more down force. Who can blame them?

This is very convenient of course in the grand scheme of things. But this is what happens, I think that from now on Ferrari will be damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they did change the engine it is because they cheated; if not, they risk of being overtaken in engine development. I don't envy them actually.

pokerman wrote:

Exediron wrote:

Siao7 wrote:They said they developed the engine, not that it is a complete new engine. It is part of the development, as all teams do. Do you expect them not to develop the engine in the winter break? Weird

They also said the new engine is less powerful than the old one. How often does that happen?

Also Andy Cowell said he expected the performance of the Ferrari not to be as big of a threat this year because of the extra measures being put in place, the bigger threat would be Honda, how does an engine basically lose such a big advantage almost overnight?

Andy Cowell said that the Ferrari engine was stronger, but Honda is much faster in development. I haven't heard these comments you mentioned. Any links?

Don't you think Ferrari are just biding time though, with the rule change, wouldn't it be better to throw your weight behind that new project rather than a rebuild of an engine with a very short lifespan.
Having said that who knows if it will get to run this year!

Option or Prime wrote:Don't you think Ferrari are just biding time though, with the rule change, wouldn't it be better to throw your weight behind that new project rather than a rebuild of an engine with a very short lifespan.
Having said that who knows if it will get to run this year!

I am not sure the exact changes for next year, I know that they will still be the V6 hybrids in core principal without any major changes, as the current engines cost a fortune to develop and they are generally very efficient. The cylinder technology that Ferrari is supposedly researching could very be used for the "new" engines.

Option or Prime wrote:

Rockie wrote:Reading through this thread makes one think a lot as a fan of Ferrari myself I have got to wonder why people have not thought of intellectual property?

IP rights to an illegal modification are worthless. the FIA see the workings of every car are they likely to break that confidential agreement?

Rockie wrote:For people who think FIA can just punish Ferrari without evidence, I suppose such individuals have never been in any form of dispute resolution or involved in any legal case, burden of proof is on the accuser and also who thinks FIA Mercedes or Redbull would be ready for a reputation damage should Ferrari win in court and sue them for unlimited damages to their brand.

Need to get a bit real, its not a criminal trial, Ferrari do more damage to the brand by doing sly deals behind peoples backs. Ferrari themselves are effectively admitting the went too far by doing a deal to cover it up. I suppose you are going to say Ferrari are being hard done by in all this.
Incidentally where are these Mercedes fans? The criticism comes from all the teams with the exception of those that are using Ferrari power units.

The mistake you make is with regards the IP rights, the technology might be useful in road cars so think of it if Mercedes get a hold of it or Mclaren.

Ferrari has not admitted anything, they have only come to an agreement with the FIA, as the FIA has tried and found nothing the only reason to pursue further will be if they have documents from whoever did whatever they are accusing Ferrari of.

It ended up more a fishing expedition than search for truth as they made Ferrari run 2 sensors to the end of the season and found nothing, also they had the Ferrari engine and data from the Mclaren 'brain box' and turned up nothing.
Most of the postulations by various blogs sounds more like fantasy and for Mercedes will be really damning if their engineers could not come up with such considering their engine performance since the PU era.

Nowadays fans have very short memories at some point before the fuel sensor it was about Ferrari generating more power from splitting the ERS most fans have forgotten about that now.

guardiangr wrote:

Option or Prime wrote: IP rights to an illegal modification are worthless. the FIA see the workings of every car are they likely to break that confidential agreement?

The whistle blowers that are working for a rival now cannot testify without getting them and the new team sued for IP infringement. I cannot see how the FIA could prove any wrongdoings without them, hence the settlement.

Precisely!

Siao7 wrote:

Exediron wrote:

Siao7 wrote:They said they developed the engine, not that it is a complete new engine. It is part of the development, as all teams do. Do you expect them not to develop the engine in the winter break? Weird

They also said the new engine is less powerful than the old one. How often does that happen?

This is a fair comment, but they said that their overhaul is down to improved reliability and it is concentrated around the cylinders. And that "less powerful engine" may be down by 10hp for all we know, almost negligible. Too early to say.

We saw it last year, outright power didn't get them far, chassis and down force was a much better tool for Mercedes and RB. They are trying a new approach where they overhaul the engine to extract more reliability and go for a lot more down force. Who can blame them?

This is very convenient of course in the grand scheme of things. But this is what happens, I think that from now on Ferrari will be damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they did change the engine it is because they cheated; if not, they risk of being overtaken in engine development. I don't envy them actually.

But you can always use more power. More power will allow you to run more df. Nobody is going to develop an engine for less power so they could focus on downforce. Ferrari was reliable enough last year so they would not have done it to improve in that area either. So yeah it is sensible to think that if they indeed have lost power this year it is because they were not within the specs last year.

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Exediron wrote:

Siao7 wrote:They said they developed the engine, not that it is a complete new engine. It is part of the development, as all teams do. Do you expect them not to develop the engine in the winter break? Weird

They also said the new engine is less powerful than the old one. How often does that happen?

Also Andy Cowell said he expected the performance of the Ferrari not to be as big of a threat this year because of the extra measures being put in place, the bigger threat would be Honda, how does an engine basically lose such a big advantage almost overnight?

Andy Cowell said that the Ferrari engine was stronger, but Honda is much faster in development. I haven't heard these comments you mentioned. Any links?

No I've looked and I can't find it.

Interview with Jean Todt:

https://grandpx.news/todt-wanted-ferrar ... agreement/

And podcast here (haven't heard it yet):

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14895 ... -jean-todt

.

Oh dear ! More unconvincing BS.

SUPPOSEDLY the incredibly rich FIA cannot afford to employ enough engineers to do its job, whilst paying their bosses vast sums ! Likewise the rich organisation cannot hire in engineers from other formulas or disciplines ! Should Todt be fired for not properly staffing his organisation ? (Well, obviously, the answer to that is "confidential" and nothing for anyone else to worry their poor little heads about !)

He ignores the fact that Ferrari had an obligation to be totally open.

Why do the FIA think that everyone outside their organisation are stupid ?

.