planetf1.com

mikeyg123 wrote:The settlement paid by Ferrari in return for dropping the case is the elephant in the room. If they knew they weren't cheating then why agree to pay what is effectively a fine.

Indeed an innocent party would never agree to that.

Uffman wrote:FIA STATEMENT FOLLOWING COMMUNICATION FROM SEVEN FORMULA 1 TEAMS
https://www.fia.com/news/fia-statement- ... la-1-teams

Laughable. So now it's too much work for the FIA to enforce their own rules? Who's actually running this sport???

Alienturnedhuman wrote:It's nuclear stalemate.

The FIA know Ferrari was cheating, but they don't know that they can prove it if it went to court.

Ferrari knows the FIA is uncertain of being able to prove it, but also doesn't know for sure that they can defend it.

Both sides will lose big if they lose in court, and gain little with a victory (the FIA may have money but the size of money they'd need to take on Ferrari would be a big hit to them)

If the FIA knew they could prove it, then it would be different because Ferrari isn't going to sink money into losing a case that damages their reputation.

At the same time, if Ferrari was certain they could defend it then they wouldn't accept anything other than total exoneration.

It's a stalemate, nobody wins.

Except Bernie.

Bang on.

One thing that has become clear is that the FIA need to speed the processes up. Imagine if Ferrari had narrowly won a championship.

Why did FiA simply give this statement in the first place?

Not so sure about the stalemate, the other F1 teams have responded for a second time:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/51762454

Its pretty clear that they want a proper answer! All 7 signatories to the original letter are asking the following:

"why the FIA felt it was unable to prove its doubts about the Ferrari engine's legality?
why the settlement it reached was confidential rather than communicated more widely?
whether the integrity of the finishing order of last year's championship should be questioned?
what the FIA's failure to get to the facts on the question of the engine's legality says about the governing body's ability to police the sport's technical regulations?"

They are not going to let this go I don't think.

Uffman wrote:FIA STATEMENT FOLLOWING COMMUNICATION FROM SEVEN FORMULA 1 TEAMS
https://www.fia.com/news/fia-statement- ... la-1-teams

.

That is just a joke !

Isn't there an offence of "bringing the sport into disrespect" ? If so, I think the FIA has certainly got enough evidence to find themselves guilty.

Just another in a long line of FIA self inflicted wounds.

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Option or Prime wrote:Not so sure about the stalemate, the other F1 teams have responded for a second time:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/51762454

...........

This is getting hilarious.

From the BBC article on the second letter to the FIA ;

"....... The governing body said it decided not to pursue its case because "further action would not necessarily result in a conclusive case due to the complexity of the matter and the material impossibility to provide the unequivocal evidence of a breach".

The FIA said its rules allowed it to look for a settlement with Ferrari, and for it to be confidential, and pointed towards clauses in its regulations that dictate that such deals are subject to the team in question "cooperating with good faith", "telling the whole truth", and "providing genuine, total and permanent cooperation". ....."

I am NOT an expert on Swiss Civil Law, but most civil laws work on the principal of "balance of probabilities", rather than the Criminal Law "beyond reasonable doubt" - so the first paragraph would seem to be deliberately misleading.

IF the settlement is subject to Ferrari "telling the whole truth", and "providing genuine, total and permanent cooperation" then surely the FIA know the facts and can't hide behind a lack of knowledge.

Again, the FIA show themselves up.

.

As the articles says: "No team is committed to F1 beyond the end of this season and the seven are understood to be concerned about the lack of transparency displayed by the FIA and feel it raises questions about how the sport is governed in the modern age."

The fact that this involves the 7 teams not associated with Ferrari they have not committed to the future this could well be a prelude to "we don't trust you so we are going to race amongst ourselves" in a breakaway.

Under that kind of pressure would the FIA buckle and where would Ferrari stand then?

I fully expect the teams to go back again.

We think Ferrari were cheating but cant prove it - case closed.

.

But according to the FIA they do know as Ferrari should have complied with "telling the whole truth", and "providing genuine, total and permanent cooperation"

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Clarky wrote:I fully expect the teams to go back again.

We think Ferrari were cheating but cant prove it - case closed.

Thats exactly what the FIA want though, gloss over the issue and move on rather than actually governing. Reading their second statement confirms that 'the 7' want that as well.

The FIA can't just ignore this, there is nothing signed for the post 2020 era, that is their leverage.

Clarky wrote:I fully expect the teams to go back again.

We think Ferrari were cheating but cant prove it - case closed.

It does sound like this. Unfortunately the FIA have shot themselves in the foot with these complicated PU's, they have seemingly lost control.

Greenman wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:Not so sure about the stalemate, the other F1 teams have responded for a second time:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/51762454

...........

This is getting hilarious.

From the BBC article on the second letter to the FIA ;

"....... The governing body said it decided not to pursue its case because "further action would not necessarily result in a conclusive case due to the complexity of the matter and the material impossibility to provide the unequivocal evidence of a breach".

The FIA said its rules allowed it to look for a settlement with Ferrari, and for it to be confidential, and pointed towards clauses in its regulations that dictate that such deals are subject to the team in question "cooperating with good faith", "telling the whole truth", and "providing genuine, total and permanent cooperation". ....."

I am NOT an expert on Swiss Civil Law, but most civil laws work on the principal of "balance of probabilities", rather than the Criminal Law "beyond reasonable doubt" - so the first paragraph would seem to be deliberately misleading.

IF the settlement is subject to Ferrari "telling the whole truth", and "providing genuine, total and permanent cooperation" then surely the FIA know the facts and can't hide behind a lack of knowledge.

Again, the FIA show themselves up.

.

I do not like the balance of probabilities myself (for this instance), it makes it too tempting for a team to just throw accusations - like RB did in this case - and then the other team (RB's main competitor for the 2nd place in the WDC let's not forget) to get a fine without actual proof. Let's not forget that when you accuse someone, the onus should be on you to prove that accusation, not Ferrari to prove that they did not do it.

With this type of accusation, what would stop Ferrari to throw it back at RB? Since RB is the only team that came forward with this trick, they could - in theory - have used it. Guilty?

Option or Prime wrote:

Covalent wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

Uffman wrote:FIA STATEMENT FOLLOWING COMMUNICATION FROM SEVEN FORMULA 1 TEAMS
https://www.fia.com/news/fia-statement- ... la-1-teams

Defensive, basically the FIA 'bottled it'.

It's not a court of Law for goodness sake. Its for the FIA as the authority to rule and for Ferrari as a competitor to comply. Frankly it pathetic to say its too complicated to investigate.

It just looks like the FIA are frightened to act or decide anything in case they upset the Ferrari organisation. I had little respect for the FIA before, even less now.

Would you have more respect for them if they had ruled against them without being confident that they got it right?

The point is the regulations belong to the FIA. Its for them to rule as the organising body and for Ferrari to prove they are compliant. Its for the FIA to rule what is right and what's wrong. Its for the FIA to rule what is legal and what's illegal.

They are treating Ferrari almost as equals. Ferrari are throwing up arguments to confuse the governing body. The result is that the people who make and apply the regulations are confused!

Its the tail wagging the dog!

Not really, you are forgetting that the FIA investigated them a number of times during the year. Came up empty handed every time. So you would want them to now just punish a team that they have investigated during a year, without any solid evidence that they got it right, based on a rumour from another team? (I will admit that the word "rumour" may not be correct here, but I used it for lack of better word)

Frankly, I wonder why Ferrari didn't "settle" by telling the FIA that they'd veto every single thing I could if the FIA pulled that cr*p...

Siao7 wrote:
I do not like the balance of probabilities myself (for this instance), it makes it too tempting for a team to just throw accusations - like RB did in this case - and then the other team (RB's main competitor for the 2nd place in the WDC let's not forget) to get a fine without actual proof. Let's not forget that when you accuse someone, the onus should be on you to prove that accusation, not Ferrari to prove that they did not do it.

With this type of accusation, what would stop Ferrari to throw it back at RB? Since RB is the only team that came forward with this trick, they could - in theory - have used it. Guilty?

.

AFAIK F1 operates under Swiss civil law (commercial) law so there is no personal choice, just as if you had a civil law case. The law doesn't work on personal wishes.

.

Siao7 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

Covalent wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

Uffman wrote:FIA STATEMENT FOLLOWING COMMUNICATION FROM SEVEN FORMULA 1 TEAMS
https://www.fia.com/news/fia-statement- ... la-1-teams

Defensive, basically the FIA 'bottled it'.

It's not a court of Law for goodness sake. Its for the FIA as the authority to rule and for Ferrari as a competitor to comply. Frankly it pathetic to say its too complicated to investigate.

It just looks like the FIA are frightened to act or decide anything in case they upset the Ferrari organisation. I had little respect for the FIA before, even less now.

Would you have more respect for them if they had ruled against them without being confident that they got it right?

The point is the regulations belong to the FIA. Its for them to rule as the organising body and for Ferrari to prove they are compliant. Its for the FIA to rule what is right and what's wrong. Its for the FIA to rule what is legal and what's illegal.

They are treating Ferrari almost as equals. Ferrari are throwing up arguments to confuse the governing body. The result is that the people who make and apply the regulations are confused!

Its the tail wagging the dog!

Not really, you are forgetting that the FIA investigated them a number of times during the year. Came up empty handed every time. So you would want them to now just punish a team that they have investigated during a year, without any solid evidence that they got it right, based on a rumour from another team? (I will admit that the word "rumour" may not be correct here, but I used it for lack of better word)

Frankly, I wonder why Ferrari didn't "settle" by telling the FIA that they'd veto every single thing I could if the FIA pulled that cr*p...

So if there is "no evidence" why are 'The 7' making such a strong second statement.

To say "what the FIA's failure to get to the facts on the question of the engine's legality says about the governing body's ability to police the sport's technical regulations?" is a pretty agressive statement from a majority of the grid.

Option or Prime wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

Covalent wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:
Defensive, basically the FIA 'bottled it'.

It's not a court of Law for goodness sake. Its for the FIA as the authority to rule and for Ferrari as a competitor to comply. Frankly it pathetic to say its too complicated to investigate.

It just looks like the FIA are frightened to act or decide anything in case they upset the Ferrari organisation. I had little respect for the FIA before, even less now.

Would you have more respect for them if they had ruled against them without being confident that they got it right?

The point is the regulations belong to the FIA. Its for them to rule as the organising body and for Ferrari to prove they are compliant. Its for the FIA to rule what is right and what's wrong. Its for the FIA to rule what is legal and what's illegal.

They are treating Ferrari almost as equals. Ferrari are throwing up arguments to confuse the governing body. The result is that the people who make and apply the regulations are confused!

Its the tail wagging the dog!

Not really, you are forgetting that the FIA investigated them a number of times during the year. Came up empty handed every time. So you would want them to now just punish a team that they have investigated during a year, without any solid evidence that they got it right, based on a rumour from another team? (I will admit that the word "rumour" may not be correct here, but I used it for lack of better word)

Frankly, I wonder why Ferrari didn't "settle" by telling the FIA that they'd veto every single thing I could if the FIA pulled that cr*p...

So if there is "no evidence" why are 'The 7' making such a strong second statement.

To say "what the FIA's failure to get to the facts on the question of the engine's legality says about the governing body's ability to police the sport's technical regulations?" is a pretty agressive statement from a majority of the grid.

You mean why do the teams that stand to benefit substantially financially from Ferrari being thrown out of the WCC, want to get Ferrari thrown out the WCC? I wonder myself...

Apart from joking though, I am not sure how to answer your question. "The 7"'s statement is something that all of us pretty much agree with, as the FIA's first statement was pure bull. Not needed, we wouldn't be here if they didn't issue that first statement last week. None would be the wiser and 2020 WCC would go on. So of course "The 7" would question such a silly statement, all of us did (and I am normally a Ferrari supporter). The FIA's inability to police the complex PU's they created is the real problem, from the oil burning to the fuel irregularities.

Siao7 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

Covalent wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

Uffman wrote:FIA STATEMENT FOLLOWING COMMUNICATION FROM SEVEN FORMULA 1 TEAMS
https://www.fia.com/news/fia-statement- ... la-1-teams

Defensive, basically the FIA 'bottled it'.

It's not a court of Law for goodness sake. Its for the FIA as the authority to rule and for Ferrari as a competitor to comply. Frankly it pathetic to say its too complicated to investigate.

It just looks like the FIA are frightened to act or decide anything in case they upset the Ferrari organisation. I had little respect for the FIA before, even less now.

Would you have more respect for them if they had ruled against them without being confident that they got it right?

The point is the regulations belong to the FIA. Its for them to rule as the organising body and for Ferrari to prove they are compliant. Its for the FIA to rule what is right and what's wrong. Its for the FIA to rule what is legal and what's illegal.

They are treating Ferrari almost as equals. Ferrari are throwing up arguments to confuse the governing body. The result is that the people who make and apply the regulations are confused!

Its the tail wagging the dog!

Not really, you are forgetting that the FIA investigated them a number of times during the year. Came up empty handed every time. So you would want them to now just punish a team that they have investigated during a year, without any solid evidence that they got it right, based on a rumour from another team? (I will admit that the word "rumour" may not be correct here, but I used it for lack of better word)

Frankly, I wonder why Ferrari didn't "settle" by telling the FIA that they'd veto every single thing I could if the FIA pulled that cr*p...

I think your last sentence may get quite close to the nub of the FIA's problems and shows once again the absolute absurdity of Ferrari's veto power.

Greenman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:
I do not like the balance of probabilities myself (for this instance), it makes it too tempting for a team to just throw accusations - like RB did in this case - and then the other team (RB's main competitor for the 2nd place in the WDC let's not forget) to get a fine without actual proof. Let's not forget that when you accuse someone, the onus should be on you to prove that accusation, not Ferrari to prove that they did not do it.

With this type of accusation, what would stop Ferrari to throw it back at RB? Since RB is the only team that came forward with this trick, they could - in theory - have used it. Guilty?

.

AFAIK F1 operates under Swiss civil law (commercial) law so there is no personal choice, just as if you had a civil law case. The law doesn't work on personal wishes.

.

I am not really fluent in legalese, so I can't answer this. But I hope you understand what I meant above, it is not a personal wish when you are accused. As far as I know and read in the news, no team officially queried the legality of the Ferrari PU, the FIA just received complaints. Which they did investigate.

Something I read on another forum mentioned that the FIA had effectively 3 choices:

"(ii) After the inquiry, and in view of the information gathered during it, the prosecuting body may draw up an inquiry report and decide:

a) to close the case, or
b) to bring the matter before the IT.

The prosecuting body may also enter into a settlement agreement to terminate the procedure."

So they can either:

A) Close the case as there is no evidence, no wrongdoing
B) International Tribunal, pointing that the FIA did not have solid evidence to take it that far
C) Settle it. This pretty much means that it is sitting on the fence, when the other two are inconclusive and they can't prove any wrongdoing, at the same time not wanting to enter a costly and lengthy battle that they couldn't conclusively prove and would not benefit anyone


For me the fact that they just settled points to:

A) Ferrari may indeed not be 100% spotless
B) Going to IT would be too damaging for everyone, the sport itself
C) The FIA found a cop-out and decided to settle rather than dragging this further

However, this all comes across as "we stopped investigating as it is too complex and we don't have a 100% grasp on these engines we created".

mikeyg123 wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

Covalent wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:
Defensive, basically the FIA 'bottled it'.

It's not a court of Law for goodness sake. Its for the FIA as the authority to rule and for Ferrari as a competitor to comply. Frankly it pathetic to say its too complicated to investigate.

It just looks like the FIA are frightened to act or decide anything in case they upset the Ferrari organisation. I had little respect for the FIA before, even less now.

Would you have more respect for them if they had ruled against them without being confident that they got it right?

The point is the regulations belong to the FIA. Its for them to rule as the organising body and for Ferrari to prove they are compliant. Its for the FIA to rule what is right and what's wrong. Its for the FIA to rule what is legal and what's illegal.

They are treating Ferrari almost as equals. Ferrari are throwing up arguments to confuse the governing body. The result is that the people who make and apply the regulations are confused!

Its the tail wagging the dog!

Not really, you are forgetting that the FIA investigated them a number of times during the year. Came up empty handed every time. So you would want them to now just punish a team that they have investigated during a year, without any solid evidence that they got it right, based on a rumour from another team? (I will admit that the word "rumour" may not be correct here, but I used it for lack of better word)

Frankly, I wonder why Ferrari didn't "settle" by telling the FIA that they'd veto every single thing I could if the FIA pulled that cr*p...

I think your last sentence may get quite close to the nub of the FIA's problems and shows once again the absolute absurdity of Ferrari's veto power.

Absolutely

.

Siao7

You seem to continually keep forgetting ;

".... The FIA said its rules allowed it to look for a settlement with Ferrari, and for it to be confidential, and pointed towards clauses in its regulations that dictate that such deals are subject to the team in question "cooperating with good faith", "telling the whole truth", and "providing genuine, total and permanent cooperation". ....." "

.

Greenman wrote:.

Siao7

You seem to continually keep forgetting ;

".... The FIA said its rules allowed it to look for a settlement with Ferrari, and for it to be confidential, and pointed towards clauses in its regulations that dictate that such deals are subject to the team in question "cooperating with good faith", "telling the whole truth", and "providing genuine, total and permanent cooperation". ....." "

.

I am not forgetting anything. But I am not following you either on this, what do you mean?

Siao7 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

Covalent wrote: Would you have more respect for them if they had ruled against them without being confident that they got it right?

The point is the regulations belong to the FIA. Its for them to rule as the organising body and for Ferrari to prove they are compliant. Its for the FIA to rule what is right and what's wrong. Its for the FIA to rule what is legal and what's illegal.

They are treating Ferrari almost as equals. Ferrari are throwing up arguments to confuse the governing body. The result is that the people who make and apply the regulations are confused!

Its the tail wagging the dog!

Not really, you are forgetting that the FIA investigated them a number of times during the year. Came up empty handed every time. So you would want them to now just punish a team that they have investigated during a year, without any solid evidence that they got it right, based on a rumour from another team? (I will admit that the word "rumour" may not be correct here, but I used it for lack of better word)

Frankly, I wonder why Ferrari didn't "settle" by telling the FIA that they'd veto every single thing I could if the FIA pulled that cr*p...

So if there is "no evidence" why are 'The 7' making such a strong second statement.

To say "what the FIA's failure to get to the facts on the question of the engine's legality says about the governing body's ability to police the sport's technical regulations?" is a pretty agressive statement from a majority of the grid.

You mean why do the teams that stand to benefit substantially financially from Ferrari being thrown out of the WCC, want to get Ferrari thrown out the WCC? I wonder myself...

Apart from joking though, I am not sure how to answer your question. "The 7"'s statement is something that all of us pretty much agree with, as the FIA's first statement was pure bull. Not needed, we wouldn't be here if they didn't issue that first statement last week. None would be the wiser and 2020 WCC would go on. So of course "The 7" would question such a silly statement, all of us did (and I am normally a Ferrari supporter). The FIA's inability to police the complex PU's they created is the real problem, from the oil burning to the fuel irregularities.

You mean if the FIA had simply swept things under the carpet, let's not forget there is supposedly a whistle blower involved in this as well, the evidence of which I heard was thrown out because of incorrect procedure as in he didn't approach the FIA first.

It seems to me the likes of Mercedes and Red Bull are quite certain that Ferrari transgressed the rules because of information received from the whistle blower however for some reason seemingly they can't come forward with it, I heard some words like spy gate thrown about.

So we have the likes of Mercedes and even more so Red Bull frustrated perhaps with the FIA's inability to police it's own rules, like how many crumbs can we throw you, but like you say the PU's are very complicated and it seems that the FIA don't have the expertise.

It also reminds me of Ferrari's twin battery, the FIA were called upon to check it's legality but seemingly they were baffled how it worked having to ask Ferrari themselves how it worked, it seems a similar thing with the PU with them having to ask Ferrari how it works.

Siao7 wrote: Apart from joking though, I am not sure how to answer your question. "The 7"'s statement is something that all of us pretty much agree with, as the FIA's first statement was pure bull. Not needed, we wouldn't be here if they didn't issue that first statement last week. None would be the wiser and 2020 WCC would go on. So of course "The 7" would question such a silly statement, all of us did (and I am normally a Ferrari supporter). The FIA's inability to police the complex PU's they created is the real problem, from the oil burning to the fuel irregularities.

Thanks, I appreciate you trying to answer.

All this depends on how motivated "The 7" are. If they use the new agreement as a lever to get the FIA to answer the 4 points made in the second letter.

The first 3 could be answered at a pinch but the last one. "what the FIA's failure to get to the facts on the question of the engine's legality says about the governing body's ability to police the sport's technical regulations?"

This is surely looking to ensure future stringency in relation to enforcing their own regulations. It is ridiculous that Ferrari have to explain what they have done because they do not understand it.

I really don't think that "The 7" are looking to overturn last seasons results, just get some feeling that the FIA are going to be impartial in the future.

Option or Prime wrote:

Siao7 wrote: Apart from joking though, I am not sure how to answer your question. "The 7"'s statement is something that all of us pretty much agree with, as the FIA's first statement was pure bull. Not needed, we wouldn't be here if they didn't issue that first statement last week. None would be the wiser and 2020 WCC would go on. So of course "The 7" would question such a silly statement, all of us did (and I am normally a Ferrari supporter). The FIA's inability to police the complex PU's they created is the real problem, from the oil burning to the fuel irregularities.

Thanks, I appreciate you trying to answer.

All this depends on how motivated "The 7" are. If they use the new agreement as a lever to get the FIA to answer the 4 points made in the second letter.

The first 3 could be answered at a pinch but the last one. "what the FIA's failure to get to the facts on the question of the engine's legality says about the governing body's ability to police the sport's technical regulations?"

This is surely looking to ensure future stringency in relation to enforcing their own regulations. It is ridiculous that Ferrari have to explain what they have done because they do not understand it.

I really don't think that "The 7" are looking to overturn last seasons results, just get some feeling that the FIA are going to be impartial in the future.

Yeah, I agree. Regarding your last statement, I did read somewhere that Marko was saying that RB should sue for $24m (or whatever the prize money would be), so I think it is a bit of both.

Siao7 wrote:

Greenman wrote:.

Siao7

You seem to continually keep forgetting ;

".... The FIA said its rules allowed it to look for a settlement with Ferrari, and for it to be confidential, and pointed towards clauses in its regulations that dictate that such deals are subject to the team in question "cooperating with good faith", "telling the whole truth", and "providing genuine, total and permanent cooperation". ....." "

.

I am not forgetting anything. But I am not following you either on this, what do you mean?

IF you can't understand what the FIA are saying, how can anyone else ? The idea that you are somehow neutral on the issue is belied by your continued trying to find excuses for the FIA and Ferrari.

The FIA say that Ferreri should be open and helpful, and yet the FIA also say they can't reach a conclusion because they can't find/understand what happened - the two are mutually exclusive.

.

Siao7 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

Siao7 wrote: Apart from joking though, I am not sure how to answer your question. "The 7"'s statement is something that all of us pretty much agree with, as the FIA's first statement was pure bull. Not needed, we wouldn't be here if they didn't issue that first statement last week. None would be the wiser and 2020 WCC would go on. So of course "The 7" would question such a silly statement, all of us did (and I am normally a Ferrari supporter). The FIA's inability to police the complex PU's they created is the real problem, from the oil burning to the fuel irregularities.

Thanks, I appreciate you trying to answer.

All this depends on how motivated "The 7" are. If they use the new agreement as a lever to get the FIA to answer the 4 points made in the second letter.

The first 3 could be answered at a pinch but the last one. "what the FIA's failure to get to the facts on the question of the engine's legality says about the governing body's ability to police the sport's technical regulations?"

This is surely looking to ensure future stringency in relation to enforcing their own regulations. It is ridiculous that Ferrari have to explain what they have done because they do not understand it.

I really don't think that "The 7" are looking to overturn last seasons results, just get some feeling that the FIA are going to be impartial in the future.

Yeah, I agree. Regarding your last statement, I did read somewhere that Marko was saying that RB should sue for $24m (or whatever the prize money would be), so I think it is a bit of both.

I guess it would be possible to keep the results but not the prize money.

I've just read something third hand but if true Toto Wolff has basically just said that Ferrari were cheating.

Greenman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Greenman wrote:.

Siao7

You seem to continually keep forgetting ;

".... The FIA said its rules allowed it to look for a settlement with Ferrari, and for it to be confidential, and pointed towards clauses in its regulations that dictate that such deals are subject to the team in question "cooperating with good faith", "telling the whole truth", and "providing genuine, total and permanent cooperation". ....." "

.

I am not forgetting anything. But I am not following you either on this, what do you mean?

IF you can't understand what the FIA are saying, how can anyone else ? The idea that you are somehow neutral on the issue is belied by your continued trying to find excuses for the FIA and Ferrari.

The FIA say that Ferreri should be open and helpful, and yet the FIA also say they can't reach a conclusion because they can't find/understand what happened - the two are mutually exclusive.

.

Still no idea what the statement from the FIA has to do with what I wrote before. And no, I said that it stinks to high havens, but I'm not going to get the pitchfork out either without some kind of proof. Too early for me, please feel free to jump on the "burn Ferrari" bandwagon, I'm going to wait until we get the whole story.

And yes, the two can be mutually exclusive, Ferrari provided the help and info and the FIA still have their doubts, but cannot prove that Ferrari cheated. This is the problem with throwing accusations, you may need to prove what you claim.

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

Siao7 wrote: Apart from joking though, I am not sure how to answer your question. "The 7"'s statement is something that all of us pretty much agree with, as the FIA's first statement was pure bull. Not needed, we wouldn't be here if they didn't issue that first statement last week. None would be the wiser and 2020 WCC would go on. So of course "The 7" would question such a silly statement, all of us did (and I am normally a Ferrari supporter). The FIA's inability to police the complex PU's they created is the real problem, from the oil burning to the fuel irregularities.

Thanks, I appreciate you trying to answer.

All this depends on how motivated "The 7" are. If they use the new agreement as a lever to get the FIA to answer the 4 points made in the second letter.

The first 3 could be answered at a pinch but the last one. "what the FIA's failure to get to the facts on the question of the engine's legality says about the governing body's ability to police the sport's technical regulations?"

This is surely looking to ensure future stringency in relation to enforcing their own regulations. It is ridiculous that Ferrari have to explain what they have done because they do not understand it.

I really don't think that "The 7" are looking to overturn last seasons results, just get some feeling that the FIA are going to be impartial in the future.

Yeah, I agree. Regarding your last statement, I did read somewhere that Marko was saying that RB should sue for $24m (or whatever the prize money would be), so I think it is a bit of both.

I guess it would be possible to keep the results but not the prize money.

I've just read something third hand but if true Toto Wolff has basically just said that Ferrari were cheating.

Yeah, that is a possibility. But to do this they will need definite proof I would imagine.

What did Toto say then?

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:
The point is the regulations belong to the FIA. Its for them to rule as the organising body and for Ferrari to prove they are compliant. Its for the FIA to rule what is right and what's wrong. Its for the FIA to rule what is legal and what's illegal.

They are treating Ferrari almost as equals. Ferrari are throwing up arguments to confuse the governing body. The result is that the people who make and apply the regulations are confused!

Its the tail wagging the dog!

Not really, you are forgetting that the FIA investigated them a number of times during the year. Came up empty handed every time. So you would want them to now just punish a team that they have investigated during a year, without any solid evidence that they got it right, based on a rumour from another team? (I will admit that the word "rumour" may not be correct here, but I used it for lack of better word)

Frankly, I wonder why Ferrari didn't "settle" by telling the FIA that they'd veto every single thing I could if the FIA pulled that cr*p...

So if there is "no evidence" why are 'The 7' making such a strong second statement.

To say "what the FIA's failure to get to the facts on the question of the engine's legality says about the governing body's ability to police the sport's technical regulations?" is a pretty agressive statement from a majority of the grid.

You mean why do the teams that stand to benefit substantially financially from Ferrari being thrown out of the WCC, want to get Ferrari thrown out the WCC? I wonder myself...

Apart from joking though, I am not sure how to answer your question. "The 7"'s statement is something that all of us pretty much agree with, as the FIA's first statement was pure bull. Not needed, we wouldn't be here if they didn't issue that first statement last week. None would be the wiser and 2020 WCC would go on. So of course "The 7" would question such a silly statement, all of us did (and I am normally a Ferrari supporter). The FIA's inability to police the complex PU's they created is the real problem, from the oil burning to the fuel irregularities.

You mean if the FIA had simply swept things under the carpet, let's not forget there is supposedly a whistle blower involved in this as well, the evidence of which I heard was thrown out because of incorrect procedure as in he didn't approach the FIA first.

It seems to me the likes of Mercedes and Red Bull are quite certain that Ferrari transgressed the rules because of information received from the whistle blower however for some reason seemingly they can't come forward with it, I heard some words like spy gate thrown about.

So we have the likes of Mercedes and even more so Red Bull frustrated perhaps with the FIA's inability to police it's own rules, like how many crumbs can we throw you, but like you say the PU's are very complicated and it seems that the FIA don't have the expertise.

It also reminds me of Ferrari's twin battery, the FIA were called upon to check it's legality but seemingly they were baffled how it worked having to ask Ferrari themselves how it worked, it seems a similar thing with the PU with them having to ask Ferrari how it works.

Swept things under the carpet? No, that's not really what I said, merely that the statement was so poorly written that it didn't serve anyone. It wasn't needed at all frankly, not in the way they presented it.

The whistle blower is a possibility, they haven't confirmed it. I am a bit sceptical about it, as if that is what really happened, I'm sure the FIA would have acted properly, like they did with the last time a whistle blower came out in 2008; protect the witness and investigate the team. I am not sure how clever this move was, the WB (whistle blower) giving the info to other teams instead of the FIA. What could the WB have gained? Would the other teams admit to possess another team's info? Not really; if RB and Merc got this info (which is illegal) then they should have informed the FIA and Ferrari straight away, not keep it to study if Ferrari have done any cheating. Granted it seems that they do not trust the FIA to police the sport, but they cannot possess another team's info either.

It stinks from top to bottom and this is potentially why the FIA wanted to settle this and move on. No wonder really.

.

Siao7

Ahhhhhh - so Ferrari who have a duty to be open and honest about the issue don't have to do so, but anyone else HAS to be !

I think your supposed "neutrality" has changed into a "Ferrari right, or wrong" attitude.

.

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

Siao7 wrote: Apart from joking though, I am not sure how to answer your question. "The 7"'s statement is something that all of us pretty much agree with, as the FIA's first statement was pure bull. Not needed, we wouldn't be here if they didn't issue that first statement last week. None would be the wiser and 2020 WCC would go on. So of course "The 7" would question such a silly statement, all of us did (and I am normally a Ferrari supporter). The FIA's inability to police the complex PU's they created is the real problem, from the oil burning to the fuel irregularities.

Thanks, I appreciate you trying to answer.

All this depends on how motivated "The 7" are. If they use the new agreement as a lever to get the FIA to answer the 4 points made in the second letter.

The first 3 could be answered at a pinch but the last one. "what the FIA's failure to get to the facts on the question of the engine's legality says about the governing body's ability to police the sport's technical regulations?"

This is surely looking to ensure future stringency in relation to enforcing their own regulations. It is ridiculous that Ferrari have to explain what they have done because they do not understand it.

I really don't think that "The 7" are looking to overturn last seasons results, just get some feeling that the FIA are going to be impartial in the future.

Yeah, I agree. Regarding your last statement, I did read somewhere that Marko was saying that RB should sue for $24m (or whatever the prize money would be), so I think it is a bit of both.

I guess it would be possible to keep the results but not the prize money.

I've just read something third hand but if true Toto Wolff has basically just said that Ferrari were cheating.

Yeah, that is a possibility. But to do this they will need definite proof I would imagine.

What did Toto say then?

It's a quote without an actual source.

Mercedes boss Toto Wolff, who united the teams against the FIA and Ferrari through Wednesday's joint action, says the Scuderia and the governing body must be held accountable.

"The whole thing is a huge mess," Wolff said. "It’s not okay what Ferrari did, but even less so how the FIA treats it. All the other teams are upset."

The proof maybe already known?

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

Siao7 wrote: Not really, you are forgetting that the FIA investigated them a number of times during the year. Came up empty handed every time. So you would want them to now just punish a team that they have investigated during a year, without any solid evidence that they got it right, based on a rumour from another team? (I will admit that the word "rumour" may not be correct here, but I used it for lack of better word)

Frankly, I wonder why Ferrari didn't "settle" by telling the FIA that they'd veto every single thing I could if the FIA pulled that cr*p...

So if there is "no evidence" why are 'The 7' making such a strong second statement.

To say "what the FIA's failure to get to the facts on the question of the engine's legality says about the governing body's ability to police the sport's technical regulations?" is a pretty agressive statement from a majority of the grid.

You mean why do the teams that stand to benefit substantially financially from Ferrari being thrown out of the WCC, want to get Ferrari thrown out the WCC? I wonder myself...

Apart from joking though, I am not sure how to answer your question. "The 7"'s statement is something that all of us pretty much agree with, as the FIA's first statement was pure bull. Not needed, we wouldn't be here if they didn't issue that first statement last week. None would be the wiser and 2020 WCC would go on. So of course "The 7" would question such a silly statement, all of us did (and I am normally a Ferrari supporter). The FIA's inability to police the complex PU's they created is the real problem, from the oil burning to the fuel irregularities.

You mean if the FIA had simply swept things under the carpet, let's not forget there is supposedly a whistle blower involved in this as well, the evidence of which I heard was thrown out because of incorrect procedure as in he didn't approach the FIA first.

It seems to me the likes of Mercedes and Red Bull are quite certain that Ferrari transgressed the rules because of information received from the whistle blower however for some reason seemingly they can't come forward with it, I heard some words like spy gate thrown about.

So we have the likes of Mercedes and even more so Red Bull frustrated perhaps with the FIA's inability to police it's own rules, like how many crumbs can we throw you, but like you say the PU's are very complicated and it seems that the FIA don't have the expertise.

It also reminds me of Ferrari's twin battery, the FIA were called upon to check it's legality but seemingly they were baffled how it worked having to ask Ferrari themselves how it worked, it seems a similar thing with the PU with them having to ask Ferrari how it works.

Swept things under the carpet? No, that's not really what I said, merely that the statement was so poorly written that it didn't serve anyone. It wasn't needed at all frankly, not in the way they presented it.

The whistle blower is a possibility, they haven't confirmed it. I am a bit sceptical about it, as if that is what really happened, I'm sure the FIA would have acted properly, like they did with the last time a whistle blower came out in 2008; protect the witness and investigate the team. I am not sure how clever this move was, the WB (whistle blower) giving the info to other teams instead of the FIA. What could the WB have gained? Would the other teams admit to possess another team's info? Not really; if RB and Merc got this info (which is illegal) then they should have informed the FIA and Ferrari straight away, not keep it to study if Ferrari have done any cheating. Granted it seems that they do not trust the FIA to police the sport, but they cannot possess another team's info either.

It stinks from top to bottom and this is potentially why the FIA wanted to settle this and move on. No wonder really.

Well I heard that the whistle blower is an ex Ferrari employee that now works for Mercedes.

Greenman wrote:.

Siao7

Ahhhhhh - so Ferrari who have a duty to be open and honest about the issue don't have to do so, but anyone else HAS to be !

I think your supposed "neutrality" has changed into a "Ferrari right, or wrong" attitude.

.

What are you on about mate? Who said that Ferrari do not have to be open and honest? Seriously, please stop talking on my behalf and just try to read what I have said. No point replying to you until then

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:
So if there is "no evidence" why are 'The 7' making such a strong second statement.

To say "what the FIA's failure to get to the facts on the question of the engine's legality says about the governing body's ability to police the sport's technical regulations?" is a pretty agressive statement from a majority of the grid.

You mean why do the teams that stand to benefit substantially financially from Ferrari being thrown out of the WCC, want to get Ferrari thrown out the WCC? I wonder myself...

Apart from joking though, I am not sure how to answer your question. "The 7"'s statement is something that all of us pretty much agree with, as the FIA's first statement was pure bull. Not needed, we wouldn't be here if they didn't issue that first statement last week. None would be the wiser and 2020 WCC would go on. So of course "The 7" would question such a silly statement, all of us did (and I am normally a Ferrari supporter). The FIA's inability to police the complex PU's they created is the real problem, from the oil burning to the fuel irregularities.

You mean if the FIA had simply swept things under the carpet, let's not forget there is supposedly a whistle blower involved in this as well, the evidence of which I heard was thrown out because of incorrect procedure as in he didn't approach the FIA first.

It seems to me the likes of Mercedes and Red Bull are quite certain that Ferrari transgressed the rules because of information received from the whistle blower however for some reason seemingly they can't come forward with it, I heard some words like spy gate thrown about.

So we have the likes of Mercedes and even more so Red Bull frustrated perhaps with the FIA's inability to police it's own rules, like how many crumbs can we throw you, but like you say the PU's are very complicated and it seems that the FIA don't have the expertise.

It also reminds me of Ferrari's twin battery, the FIA were called upon to check it's legality but seemingly they were baffled how it worked having to ask Ferrari themselves how it worked, it seems a similar thing with the PU with them having to ask Ferrari how it works.

Swept things under the carpet? No, that's not really what I said, merely that the statement was so poorly written that it didn't serve anyone. It wasn't needed at all frankly, not in the way they presented it.

The whistle blower is a possibility, they haven't confirmed it. I am a bit sceptical about it, as if that is what really happened, I'm sure the FIA would have acted properly, like they did with the last time a whistle blower came out in 2008; protect the witness and investigate the team. I am not sure how clever this move was, the WB (whistle blower) giving the info to other teams instead of the FIA. What could the WB have gained? Would the other teams admit to possess another team's info? Not really; if RB and Merc got this info (which is illegal) then they should have informed the FIA and Ferrari straight away, not keep it to study if Ferrari have done any cheating. Granted it seems that they do not trust the FIA to police the sport, but they cannot possess another team's info either.

It stinks from top to bottom and this is potentially why the FIA wanted to settle this and move on. No wonder really.

Well I heard that the whistle blower is an ex Ferrari employee that now works for Mercedes.

How many people went from Ferrari to Mercedes the last 2 years that would have access to such info? Wouldn't be dfficult to find out who it was. But until we find out the truth, I think I will just wait, don't want to upset Greenman further

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:
Thanks, I appreciate you trying to answer.

All this depends on how motivated "The 7" are. If they use the new agreement as a lever to get the FIA to answer the 4 points made in the second letter.

The first 3 could be answered at a pinch but the last one. "what the FIA's failure to get to the facts on the question of the engine's legality says about the governing body's ability to police the sport's technical regulations?"

This is surely looking to ensure future stringency in relation to enforcing their own regulations. It is ridiculous that Ferrari have to explain what they have done because they do not understand it.

I really don't think that "The 7" are looking to overturn last seasons results, just get some feeling that the FIA are going to be impartial in the future.

Yeah, I agree. Regarding your last statement, I did read somewhere that Marko was saying that RB should sue for $24m (or whatever the prize money would be), so I think it is a bit of both.

I guess it would be possible to keep the results but not the prize money.

I've just read something third hand but if true Toto Wolff has basically just said that Ferrari were cheating.

Yeah, that is a possibility. But to do this they will need definite proof I would imagine.

What did Toto say then?

It's a quote without an actual source.

Mercedes boss Toto Wolff, who united the teams against the FIA and Ferrari through Wednesday's joint action, says the Scuderia and the governing body must be held accountable.

"The whole thing is a huge mess," Wolff said. "It’s not okay what Ferrari did, but even less so how the FIA treats it. All the other teams are upset."

The proof maybe already known?

Well, I agree with Toto then, huge mess! He seems to know what Ferrari did, if they did something. Why doesn't someone actually come out with this info? It is so intriguing

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote: Yeah, I agree. Regarding your last statement, I did read somewhere that Marko was saying that RB should sue for $24m (or whatever the prize money would be), so I think it is a bit of both.

I guess it would be possible to keep the results but not the prize money.

I've just read something third hand but if true Toto Wolff has basically just said that Ferrari were cheating.

Yeah, that is a possibility. But to do this they will need definite proof I would imagine.

What did Toto say then?

It's a quote without an actual source.

Mercedes boss Toto Wolff, who united the teams against the FIA and Ferrari through Wednesday's joint action, says the Scuderia and the governing body must be held accountable.

"The whole thing is a huge mess," Wolff said. "It’s not okay what Ferrari did, but even less so how the FIA treats it. All the other teams are upset."

The proof maybe already known?

Well, I agree with Toto then, huge mess! He seems to know what Ferrari did, if they did something. Why doesn't someone actually come out with this info? It is so intriguing

I don't know, maybe it surrounds having some Ferrari IP which makes things a sensitive situation?

Alienturnedhuman wrote:It's nuclear stalemate.

The FIA know Ferrari was cheating, but they don't know that they can prove it if it went to court.

Ferrari knows the FIA is uncertain of being able to prove it, but also doesn't know for sure that they can defend it.

Both sides will lose big if they lose in court, and gain little with a victory (the FIA may have money but the size of money they'd need to take on Ferrari would be a big hit to them)

If the FIA knew they could prove it, then it would be different because Ferrari isn't going to sink money into losing a case that damages their reputation.

At the same time, if Ferrari was certain they could defend it then they wouldn't accept anything other than total exoneration.

It's a stalemate, nobody wins.

Except Bernie.

Or the FIA does not want to expose that Ferrari was cheating. Partners in crime?

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

Alienturnedhuman wrote:It's nuclear stalemate.

The FIA know Ferrari was cheating, but they don't know that they can prove it if it went to court.

Ferrari knows the FIA is uncertain of being able to prove it, but also doesn't know for sure that they can defend it.

Both sides will lose big if they lose in court, and gain little with a victory (the FIA may have money but the size of money they'd need to take on Ferrari would be a big hit to them)

If the FIA knew they could prove it, then it would be different because Ferrari isn't going to sink money into losing a case that damages their reputation.

At the same time, if Ferrari was certain they could defend it then they wouldn't accept anything other than total exoneration.

It's a stalemate, nobody wins.

Except Bernie.

Or the FIA does not want to expose that Ferrari was cheating. Partners in crime?

Hence the 7 teams saying were not standing for that?