It is currently Wed May 27, 2020 5:56 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic

What caused Ferrari's lack of pace in Austin?
Engine changed to comply with technical directive 59%  59%  [ 27 ]
Circuit does not suit their car 17%  17%  [ 8 ]
Had to avoid kerbs and bumps 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Trialing high downforce setting 7%  7%  [ 3 ]
Sandbagging 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Leclerc ate too much of Binotto's birthday cake 11%  11%  [ 5 ]
Other 7%  7%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 46
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 8227
mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2020/2020-03/mercedes-amg-petronas-f1-team-statement/?fbclid=IwAR00kP6o8zNallhzMU77hRWGcvWBs_XxmJadGJILTdO4pkY7LehnYmhu4Sk

Statement from the other teams.


Good on them. I' glad they're standing up to this.


Yes, nice and simple statement. I wonder what the FIA is going to do now


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:23 am
Posts: 3087
Joe Saward live on Mixed Apex F1 now (youtube). Hopefully he will have an opinion and some more information on this subject.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16920
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2020/2020-03/mercedes-amg-petronas-f1-team-statement/?fbclid=IwAR00kP6o8zNallhzMU77hRWGcvWBs_XxmJadGJILTdO4pkY7LehnYmhu4Sk

Statement from the other teams.


Good on them. I' glad they're standing up to this.


Yes, nice and simple statement. I wonder what the FIA is going to do now


Worth remembering that the FIA need these teams to sign up to the new concorde agreement so they might have a bit of leverage there.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:07 am
Posts: 1372
I think these 3 points on the BBC News site sum it perfectly:

Does the lack of punitive action against Ferrari mean that the car was legal at all times in 2019?
If so, why not say so? Why the need for a "settlement", and what was that settlement?
What confidence can teams have in F1 if the FIA is not able to conclude a technical investigation without saying whether the car in question was legal or not?

_________________
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:09 pm
Posts: 4502
Location: LONDON...!
shoot999 wrote:
Joe Saward live on Mixed Apex F1 now (youtube). Hopefully he will have an opinion and some more information on this subject.

Missed Apex?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:46 pm
Posts: 440
doesnt the fact that binotto has said the 2020 engine is not as strong as 2019 say it all. he might also say its due to better reliability but thats nonsense. if last years engine was legal, this years would not be worse.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:09 pm
Posts: 4502
Location: LONDON...!
Teams are right to be furious as (if it is illegal) they will have won races with it.

Monza comes to mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 8227
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
doesnt the fact that binotto has said the 2020 engine is not as strong as 2019 say it all. he might also say its due to better reliability but thats nonsense. if last years engine was legal, this years would not be worse.


I am not sure I agree with this last statement. The Mercedes engine was legal last year and we are told that apparently they are having reliability issues so far in 2020. What is the co-relation?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 8227
Clarky wrote:
Teams are right to be furious as (if it is illegal) they will have won races with it.

Monza comes to mind.


The problem is that the precedent is that they are allowed to keep wins; it has happened before and teams were allowed to keep the wins


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 34134
Siao7 wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
doesnt the fact that binotto has said the 2020 engine is not as strong as 2019 say it all. he might also say its due to better reliability but thats nonsense. if last years engine was legal, this years would not be worse.


I am not sure I agree with this last statement. The Mercedes engine was legal last year and we are told that apparently they are having reliability issues so far in 2020. What is the co-relation?

That's because Mercedes realised that they needed to play catch up, with Ferrari if you have an engine that was reported at times to be 30-50hp better than the opposition then why the need for a completely new engine design and that new engine is reportedly less powerful and less reliable.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Last edited by pokerman on Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 34134
Siao7 wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Teams are right to be furious as (if it is illegal) they will have won races with it.

Monza comes to mind.


The problem is that the precedent is that they are allowed to keep wins; it has happened before and teams were allowed to keep the wins

Indeed but what about WCC points bearing in mind the prize money that comes with it?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 8227
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
doesnt the fact that binotto has said the 2020 engine is not as strong as 2019 say it all. he might also say its due to better reliability but thats nonsense. if last years engine was legal, this years would not be worse.


I am not sure I agree with this last statement. The Mercedes engine was legal last year and we are told that apparently they are having reliability issues so far in 2020. What is the co-relation?

That's because Mercedes realised that they needed to play catch up, with Ferrari if you have an engine that was reported at times to be 30-50hp better than the opposition then why the need for a completely new engine design and that new engine is reportedly less powerful and less reliable.

Well we just don't know this, do we?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 8227
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Teams are right to be furious as (if it is illegal) they will have won races with it.

Monza comes to mind.


The problem is that the precedent is that they are allowed to keep wins; it has happened before and teams were allowed to keep the wins

Indeed but what about WCC points bearing in mind the prize money that comes with it?

I am not sure frankly. Renault didn't have any points deducted with the mass damper business, nor BAR for the double fuel tank, nor Ferrari in '97 with one car disqualified. In a typical FIA fashion, when they find something illegal, they ban it. I do not remember ever changing points/results retrospectively (they have disqualified cars for a racing weekend like the BAR mentioned before, but they didn't cancel their results up to that point).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:23 am
Posts: 3087
Clarky wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Joe Saward live on Mixed Apex F1 now (youtube). Hopefully he will have an opinion and some more information on this subject.

Missed Apex?


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCh0DXE ... gHA/videos


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:58 am
Posts: 49
Location: Yorkshire, England
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Teams are right to be furious as (if it is illegal) they will have won races with it.

Monza comes to mind.


The problem is that the precedent is that they are allowed to keep wins; it has happened before and teams were allowed to keep the wins

Indeed but what about WCC points bearing in mind the prize money that comes with it?

I am not sure frankly. Renault didn't have any points deducted with the mass damper business, nor BAR for the double fuel tank, nor Ferrari in '97 with one car disqualified. In a typical FIA fashion, when they find something illegal, they ban it. I do not remember ever changing points/results retrospectively (they have disqualified cars for a racing weekend like the BAR mentioned before, but they didn't cancel their results up to that point).


I guess being harsh, at that point aside from the San Marino GP from which they were disqualified...BAR didn't have any points to remove at that stage!

I think you're right though - in the instances i the past where people or teams have been disqualified from a season (McLaren 2007, Michael Schumacher in '97) they were removed from the standings, but their points were not re-allocated...I don't think that can happen after the season end anyway...

Overall on the main topic though I think that the FIA needs to be really clear and transparent about whether the Ferrari engine was legal at all stages of last season or not...and if not then they need to take more firm actions TBH. I can understand why the other teams are annoyed about it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16920
The results can't be changed at this stage. I think people just want to know if the sport is being run with integrity or not.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 34134
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
doesnt the fact that binotto has said the 2020 engine is not as strong as 2019 say it all. he might also say its due to better reliability but thats nonsense. if last years engine was legal, this years would not be worse.


I am not sure I agree with this last statement. The Mercedes engine was legal last year and we are told that apparently they are having reliability issues so far in 2020. What is the co-relation?

That's because Mercedes realised that they needed to play catch up, with Ferrari if you have an engine that was reported at times to be 30-50hp better than the opposition then why the need for a completely new engine design and that new engine is reportedly less powerful and less reliable.

Well we just don't know this, do we?

Well there seems to be plenty of smoke.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 34134
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Teams are right to be furious as (if it is illegal) they will have won races with it.

Monza comes to mind.


The problem is that the precedent is that they are allowed to keep wins; it has happened before and teams were allowed to keep the wins

Indeed but what about WCC points bearing in mind the prize money that comes with it?

I am not sure frankly. Renault didn't have any points deducted with the mass damper business, nor BAR for the double fuel tank, nor Ferrari in '97 with one car disqualified. In a typical FIA fashion, when they find something illegal, they ban it. I do not remember ever changing points/results retrospectively (they have disqualified cars for a racing weekend like the BAR mentioned before, but they didn't cancel their results up to that point).

The mass damper was fine for years until for some reason it was decided to ban it, similar to the FRIC suspension, don't remember much about the BAR incident apart from them getting disqualified, I don't remember any disqualifications for Ferrari, and in 1997 just the one car got disqualified because it was a driver penalty.

We have to ask what the teams are after if you think that no past penalty can be applied?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 34134
oliver.drew wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Teams are right to be furious as (if it is illegal) they will have won races with it.

Monza comes to mind.


The problem is that the precedent is that they are allowed to keep wins; it has happened before and teams were allowed to keep the wins

Indeed but what about WCC points bearing in mind the prize money that comes with it?

I am not sure frankly. Renault didn't have any points deducted with the mass damper business, nor BAR for the double fuel tank, nor Ferrari in '97 with one car disqualified. In a typical FIA fashion, when they find something illegal, they ban it. I do not remember ever changing points/results retrospectively (they have disqualified cars for a racing weekend like the BAR mentioned before, but they didn't cancel their results up to that point).


I guess being harsh, at that point aside from the San Marino GP from which they were disqualified...BAR didn't have any points to remove at that stage!

I think you're right though - in the instances i the past where people or teams have been disqualified from a season (McLaren 2007, Michael Schumacher in '97) they were removed from the standings, but their points were not re-allocated...I don't think that can happen after the season end anyway...

Overall on the main topic though I think that the FIA needs to be really clear and transparent about whether the Ferrari engine was legal at all stages of last season or not...and if not then they need to take more firm actions TBH. I can understand why the other teams are annoyed about it.

Their points were not reallocated, the teams and drivers below them merely moved up a place, in the case of WCC points we're talking about prize money.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 8227
pokerman wrote:
oliver.drew wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:

The problem is that the precedent is that they are allowed to keep wins; it has happened before and teams were allowed to keep the wins

Indeed but what about WCC points bearing in mind the prize money that comes with it?

I am not sure frankly. Renault didn't have any points deducted with the mass damper business, nor BAR for the double fuel tank, nor Ferrari in '97 with one car disqualified. In a typical FIA fashion, when they find something illegal, they ban it. I do not remember ever changing points/results retrospectively (they have disqualified cars for a racing weekend like the BAR mentioned before, but they didn't cancel their results up to that point).


I guess being harsh, at that point aside from the San Marino GP from which they were disqualified...BAR didn't have any points to remove at that stage!

I think you're right though - in the instances i the past where people or teams have been disqualified from a season (McLaren 2007, Michael Schumacher in '97) they were removed from the standings, but their points were not re-allocated...I don't think that can happen after the season end anyway...

Overall on the main topic though I think that the FIA needs to be really clear and transparent about whether the Ferrari engine was legal at all stages of last season or not...and if not then they need to take more firm actions TBH. I can understand why the other teams are annoyed about it.

Their points were not reallocated, the teams and drivers below them merely moved up a place, in the case of WCC points we're talking about prize money.


I think that in 1997 Ferrari still ended up second points, they included Schumacher's points, so the other teams did not move up a place. I get that it was due to a driver issue and not a legality one, but that's what happened from memory. BAR as pointed out had a crap season up to that point, made 0 points, so not really relevant.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 8227
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Teams are right to be furious as (if it is illegal) they will have won races with it.

Monza comes to mind.


The problem is that the precedent is that they are allowed to keep wins; it has happened before and teams were allowed to keep the wins

Indeed but what about WCC points bearing in mind the prize money that comes with it?

I am not sure frankly. Renault didn't have any points deducted with the mass damper business, nor BAR for the double fuel tank, nor Ferrari in '97 with one car disqualified. In a typical FIA fashion, when they find something illegal, they ban it. I do not remember ever changing points/results retrospectively (they have disqualified cars for a racing weekend like the BAR mentioned before, but they didn't cancel their results up to that point).

The mass damper was fine for years until for some reason it was decided to ban it, similar to the FRIC suspension, don't remember much about the BAR incident apart from them getting disqualified, I don't remember any disqualifications for Ferrari, and in 1997 just the one car got disqualified because it was a driver penalty.

We have to ask what the teams are after if you think that no past penalty can be applied?

Well, isn't this similar then? The Ferrari engine had passed every FIA test and scrutinised since 2018 until now (and remember that we still haven't officially had a confirmation that they have cheated, although it seems pretty much like a technicality at this point!), so sounds quite similar to me the way you describe it here. Where are you going with this?

The teams may be after what mikeyg mentioned above, that the FIA are actually doing their job with some integrity.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 8227
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
doesnt the fact that binotto has said the 2020 engine is not as strong as 2019 say it all. he might also say its due to better reliability but thats nonsense. if last years engine was legal, this years would not be worse.


I am not sure I agree with this last statement. The Mercedes engine was legal last year and we are told that apparently they are having reliability issues so far in 2020. What is the co-relation?

That's because Mercedes realised that they needed to play catch up, with Ferrari if you have an engine that was reported at times to be 30-50hp better than the opposition then why the need for a completely new engine design and that new engine is reportedly less powerful and less reliable.

Well we just don't know this, do we?

Well there seems to be plenty of smoke.

For sure, to use an old F1 phrase!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:46 pm
Posts: 440
Siao7 wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
doesnt the fact that binotto has said the 2020 engine is not as strong as 2019 say it all. he might also say its due to better reliability but thats nonsense. if last years engine was legal, this years would not be worse.


I am not sure I agree with this last statement. The Mercedes engine was legal last year and we are told that apparently they are having reliability issues so far in 2020. What is the co-relation?


i would take binotto saying its not as strong as to mean its not got as much power/torque. I may be wrong but is this the first time in the hybrid era where any manufacturers new engine is less powerful. that says it all to me if true. if they had reliability problems with last years engine, which wasnt too bad in that respect, they could have fixed that over the winter and at least run the same power this year.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:09 pm
Posts: 4502
Location: LONDON...!
shoot999 wrote:
Clarky wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Joe Saward live on Mixed Apex F1 now (youtube). Hopefully he will have an opinion and some more information on this subject.

Missed Apex?


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCh0DXE ... gHA/videos

Yeah I follow I was clarifying as he said mixed apex not missed!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm
Posts: 3804
Clarky wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Clarky wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Joe Saward live on Mixed Apex F1 now (youtube). Hopefully he will have an opinion and some more information on this subject.

Missed Apex?


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCh0DXE ... gHA/videos

Yeah I follow I was clarifying as he said mixed apex not missed!

Did anyone listen to the podcast and share what the conclusion was?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:09 pm
Posts: 4502
Location: LONDON...!
I have started to listen to it but Joe is sitting on the fence so far.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 34134
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
oliver.drew wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Indeed but what about WCC points bearing in mind the prize money that comes with it?

I am not sure frankly. Renault didn't have any points deducted with the mass damper business, nor BAR for the double fuel tank, nor Ferrari in '97 with one car disqualified. In a typical FIA fashion, when they find something illegal, they ban it. I do not remember ever changing points/results retrospectively (they have disqualified cars for a racing weekend like the BAR mentioned before, but they didn't cancel their results up to that point).


I guess being harsh, at that point aside from the San Marino GP from which they were disqualified...BAR didn't have any points to remove at that stage!

I think you're right though - in the instances i the past where people or teams have been disqualified from a season (McLaren 2007, Michael Schumacher in '97) they were removed from the standings, but their points were not re-allocated...I don't think that can happen after the season end anyway...

Overall on the main topic though I think that the FIA needs to be really clear and transparent about whether the Ferrari engine was legal at all stages of last season or not...and if not then they need to take more firm actions TBH. I can understand why the other teams are annoyed about it.

Their points were not reallocated, the teams and drivers below them merely moved up a place, in the case of WCC points we're talking about prize money.


I think that in 1997 Ferrari still ended up second points, they included Schumacher's points, so the other teams did not move up a place. I get that it was due to a driver issue and not a legality one, but that's what happened from memory. BAR as pointed out had a crap season up to that point, made 0 points, so not really relevant.

I wasn't just replying to that though, in that case Ferrari kept their points because they had committed no offence.

I am hearing such things can't be changed 14 days after the season has finished anyway so the FIA taking months to come to any kind of decision has maybe taken that option from them.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 1698
Location: UK
Several excellent points made in the comments at the end of this article on the BBC site. The most poignant to my mind was the one that referred to McLaren's £100 million fine. Not the same but also not that different!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/51736247


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:32 am
Posts: 316
FIA STATEMENT FOLLOWING COMMUNICATION FROM SEVEN FORMULA 1 TEAMS
https://www.fia.com/news/fia-statement-following-communication-seven-formula-1-teams


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 2:57 pm
Posts: 19
Uffman wrote:
FIA STATEMENT FOLLOWING COMMUNICATION FROM SEVEN FORMULA 1 TEAMS
https://www.fia.com/news/fia-statement-following-communication-seven-formula-1-teams


A rather firm and strong "pipe down" message to the 7 teams. Next move is theirs, though I presume they were fully aware of Article 4 of the JDR etc… before they raised their concerns.

I can't imagine this will satisfy anyone who was dissatisfied with the first statement.

Also a few issues:
- would another team be treated in the same way? Or was their "best interest" decision only because it was Ferrari?
- in the matter of technical infringements, is it fair to other competitors to dismiss prosecution as too difficult? Let parties present the facts and arguments, then the council/jury decide.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16920
Basically sounds like they found a smoking gun but can't prove it's been fired.

It does question having such ridiculously complex rules that it's to difficult for the sports governing body to prove they have been broken.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 2:57 pm
Posts: 19
mikeyg123 wrote:
Basically sounds like they found a smoking gun but can't prove it's been fired.

It does question having such ridiculously complex rules that it's to difficult for the sports governing body to prove they have been broken.


I can't believe that a case based on probabilities can't be constructed though. The other teams had GPS traces etc... which they felt were conclusive enough to raise the topic.

With the wealth of data recorded by teams, if the FIA could obtain things such as:
- power modes/throttle mapping across given sessions
- set-up sheets (or modern equivalent!) confirming wing angles etc...
- PU torque output etc...

then you could identify correlations or anomalies. For example, did similar settings across different events produce distinctly different outputs suggesting a change in the PU? More pointedly, can Ferrari prove they increased wing angles for Austin and beyond thereby corroborating Binotto's excuse?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:42 pm
Posts: 378
Doesn’t this just mean the FIA can’t police there own rules?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 1698
Location: UK
Uffman wrote:
FIA STATEMENT FOLLOWING COMMUNICATION FROM SEVEN FORMULA 1 TEAMS
https://www.fia.com/news/fia-statement-following-communication-seven-formula-1-teams


Defensive, basically the FIA 'bottled it'.

It's not a court of Law for goodness sake. Its for the FIA as the authority to rule and for Ferrari as a competitor to comply. Frankly it pathetic to say its too complicated to investigate.

It just looks like the FIA are frightened to act or decide anything in case they upset the Ferrari organisation. I had little respect for the FIA before, even less now.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:07 pm
Posts: 10029
Option or Prime wrote:
Uffman wrote:
FIA STATEMENT FOLLOWING COMMUNICATION FROM SEVEN FORMULA 1 TEAMS
https://www.fia.com/news/fia-statement-following-communication-seven-formula-1-teams


Defensive, basically the FIA 'bottled it'.

It's not a court of Law for goodness sake. Its for the FIA as the authority to rule and for Ferrari as a competitor to comply. Frankly it pathetic to say its too complicated to investigate.

It just looks like the FIA are frightened to act or decide anything in case they upset the Ferrari organisation. I had little respect for the FIA before, even less now.

Would you have more respect for them if they had ruled against them without being confident that they got it right?

_________________
Räikkönen - Vettel - Bottas
Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 2:57 pm
Posts: 19
Covalent wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Uffman wrote:
FIA STATEMENT FOLLOWING COMMUNICATION FROM SEVEN FORMULA 1 TEAMS
https://www.fia.com/news/fia-statement-following-communication-seven-formula-1-teams


Defensive, basically the FIA 'bottled it'.

It's not a court of Law for goodness sake. Its for the FIA as the authority to rule and for Ferrari as a competitor to comply. Frankly it pathetic to say its too complicated to investigate.

It just looks like the FIA are frightened to act or decide anything in case they upset the Ferrari organisation. I had little respect for the FIA before, even less now.

Would you have more respect for them if they had ruled against them without being confident that they got it right?


In that circumstance, if innocent, I would have faith that Ferrari could present the designs and data to prove it. The probability is that they haven't because it would be self-incriminating.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16920
Covalent wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Uffman wrote:
FIA STATEMENT FOLLOWING COMMUNICATION FROM SEVEN FORMULA 1 TEAMS
https://www.fia.com/news/fia-statement-following-communication-seven-formula-1-teams


Defensive, basically the FIA 'bottled it'.

It's not a court of Law for goodness sake. Its for the FIA as the authority to rule and for Ferrari as a competitor to comply. Frankly it pathetic to say its too complicated to investigate.

It just looks like the FIA are frightened to act or decide anything in case they upset the Ferrari organisation. I had little respect for the FIA before, even less now.

Would you have more respect for them if they had ruled against them without being confident that they got it right?


They don't have to do either.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16920
The settlement paid by Ferrari in return for dropping the case is the elephant in the room. If they knew they weren't cheating then why agree to pay what is effectively a fine.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 34134
Pest44 wrote:
Doesn’t this just mean the FIA can’t police there own rules?

Looks like it, they simply don't have the expertise.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 1698
Location: UK
Covalent wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Uffman wrote:
FIA STATEMENT FOLLOWING COMMUNICATION FROM SEVEN FORMULA 1 TEAMS
https://www.fia.com/news/fia-statement-following-communication-seven-formula-1-teams


Defensive, basically the FIA 'bottled it'.

It's not a court of Law for goodness sake. Its for the FIA as the authority to rule and for Ferrari as a competitor to comply. Frankly it pathetic to say its too complicated to investigate.

It just looks like the FIA are frightened to act or decide anything in case they upset the Ferrari organisation. I had little respect for the FIA before, even less now.

Would you have more respect for them if they had ruled against them without being confident that they got it right?


The point is the regulations belong to the FIA. Its for them to rule as the organising body and for Ferrari to prove they are compliant. Its for the FIA to rule what is right and what's wrong. Its for the FIA to rule what is legal and what's illegal.

They are treating Ferrari almost as equals. Ferrari are throwing up arguments to confuse the governing body. The result is that the people who make and apply the regulations are confused!

Its the tail wagging the dog!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: tootsie323 and 56 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group