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Christ that is awful.

Is anyone going to defend this or have we finally found something we all agree on?

I generally cringe at the 'Ferrari International Assistance' comments because, most of the time, it just isn't true. But on this occasion it seems painfully obvious that Ferrari's engine wasn't complying with the regulations last year, that they were gaining an unfair advantage, that the FIA are 100% aware of this and have chosen to do them a huge favour. The fact that they've made this vague statement about a private settlement makes it very hard to draw any conclusion other than Ferrari were cheating and the FIA have completely bottled the punishment, or have chosen to bottle the punishment as much for their own benefit as anything else.

This is the news as reported by the BBC, https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/51681804. However it is a watered down version from the initial report saying that other teams were furious and that they were not willing to be quoted but were prepared to say anonymously that they were extremely displeased to put it mildly.

Option or Prime wrote:This is the news as reported by the BBC, https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/51681804. However it is a watered down version from the initial report saying that other teams were furious and that they were not willing to be quoted but were prepared to say anonymously that they were extremely displeased to put it mildly.

I think this is what you are referring to:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/51688538

I think this is Benetton '94 all over again. They have found a smoking gun but only circumstantial evidence it was fired, even though it obviously was.

Allowed to cheat its as simple as that.

Ferrari will have had to give the FIA all their information on what they did but this is a slap in the face to their competitors.

Alienturnedhuman wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:This is the news as reported by the BBC, https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/51681804. However it is a watered down version from the initial report saying that other teams were furious and that they were not willing to be quoted but were prepared to say anonymously that they were extremely displeased to put it mildly.

I think this is what you are referring to:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/51688538

I think this is Benetton '94 all over again. They have found a smoking gun but only circumstantial evidence it was fired, even though it obviously was.

Yes, well found! Thanks

mikeyg123 wrote:Christ that is awful.

Is anyone going to defend this or have we finally found something we all agree on?

I would be guessing not on here but in other places there's the odd Ferrari fan convinced there was no cheating involved because it's not been spelt out like that in black and white.

Jenson's Understeer wrote:I generally cringe at the 'Ferrari International Assistance' comments because, most of the time, it just isn't true. But on this occasion it seems painfully obvious that Ferrari's engine wasn't complying with the regulations last year, that they were gaining an unfair advantage, that the FIA are 100% aware of this and have chosen to do them a huge favour. The fact that they've made this vague statement about a private settlement makes it very hard to draw any conclusion other than Ferrari were cheating and the FIA have completely bottled the punishment, or have chosen to bottle the punishment as much for their own benefit as anything else.

This may even go back to 2018?

On top of the illegal engine, after Canada we also had the favourable stewards decisions in respect to Ferrari, hopefully there are going to be some new brooms used for this season and beyond.

First impressions...... it stinks.

It smells to high heaven, and in an ideal world where everything is black and white, Ferrari would have the book thrown at them.....

...however, if they have been rumbled and/or spilt all the beans on what they were doing to the FIA in exchange for a 'settlement' (and lets be honest, with that press release from the FIA, it wasn't exactly mass damage control in exchange) agreed to get back on the straight and narrow on the engine for this season..... then I think I can live with it.

Mercedes get to bask in the knowledge that they still managed to win despite Ferrari being a shade less than legit, Ferrari have to deal with what is going to be a fairly public flogging from the fans if not the FIA over the issue, and we can all draw a line under the issue going forward.

It's not an ideal solution, and the timing of that press release was very clearly deliberate......... but I can see why it's been done this way.

I don't like this one bit.
Take 2 different sports, Football, Manchester City, Investigated for financial irregularities (Appeal in progress) 2 year Ban. Rugby Union, breach of salary cap Automatic relegation. Formula 1, Manipulation of the fuel regulations, (we think). No action in a secret agreement.

Cheating in sport MUST be punished.

Option or Prime wrote:I don't like this one bit.
Take 2 different sports, Football, Manchester City, Investigated for financial irregularities (Appeal in progress) 2 year Ban. Rugby Union, breach of salary cap Automatic relegation. Formula 1, Manipulation of the fuel regulations, (we think). No action in a secret agreement.

Cheating in sport MUST be punished.

I guess that's a basic problem in F1 were one team is determined to be more important than any of the others.

It stinks to high heaven. This is what happens when you give 1 team the power to veto anything the organising body wants to do. You get dodgy deals.

Suffocatingly miasmic, no doubt.

And that's quite the cliffhanger to leave us on too — bring on Australia already!

Option or Prime wrote:I don't like this one bit.
Take 2 different sports, Football, Manchester City, Investigated for financial irregularities (Appeal in progress) 2 year Ban. Rugby Union, breach of salary cap Automatic relegation. Formula 1, Manipulation of the fuel regulations, (we think). No action in a secret agreement.

Cheating in sport MUST be punished.

Formula One is an expensive hobby turned into a private club in charge of a lucrative show business. If it ever was a sport, it's over since Bernie's years at least. Sport rules have been replaced long ago by family agreements (Brabham, Benetton, McLaren ... I don't remember any of them getting a 2 years ban, for more obvious cheating than last years Ferrari unproven "manipulation of fuel regulations"). Anyway they won't ban one of the current club members, when no one wants to pay that much money to enter such a club.

That said, I believe that Ferrari not being "punished" but offered a "private arrangement" (whatever we think of the special status of Ferrari - I'm old enough to remember the time when Ferrari was the only synonimous of motor-racing), is simply due to the fact that they couldn't prove Ferrari cheated, and Ferrari couldn't prove they didn't.

Harpo wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:I don't like this one bit.
Take 2 different sports, Football, Manchester City, Investigated for financial irregularities (Appeal in progress) 2 year Ban. Rugby Union, breach of salary cap Automatic relegation. Formula 1, Manipulation of the fuel regulations, (we think). No action in a secret agreement.

Cheating in sport MUST be punished.

Formula One is an expensive hobby turned into a private club in charge of a lucrative show business. If it ever was a sport, it's over since Bernie's years at least. Sport rules have been replaced long ago by family agreements (Brabham, Benetton, McLaren ... I don't remember any of them getting a 2 years ban, for more obvious cheating than last years Ferrari unproven "manipulation of fuel regulations"). Anyway they won't ban one of the current club members, when no one wants to pay that much money to enter such a club.

That said, I believe that Ferrari not being "punished" but offered a "private arrangement" (whatever we think of the special status of Ferrari - I'm old enough to remember the time when Ferrari was the only synonimous of motor-racing), is simply due to the fact that they couldn't prove Ferrari cheated, and Ferrari couldn't prove they didn't.

Fair enough and a good perspective, the problem for me is that I'm not at all sure the investigating body really tried to take a proper look at the issue hilst allowing the cars to continue racing with an unfair advantage.

This means that they keep their points, prize money and can pretend they are "clean' this season. In my view it taints the sport/club and those in it at the same time.

Is it the view of F1 fans that longstanding drivers at Ferrari would have no knowledge of these 'technical wrinkles' and are innocent and blameless?

Given Lewis Hamilton's attitude to F1 I would hope he has dismissed the idea of going there as a driver, but I may be naïve.

Harpo wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:I don't like this one bit.
Take 2 different sports, Football, Manchester City, Investigated for financial irregularities (Appeal in progress) 2 year Ban. Rugby Union, breach of salary cap Automatic relegation. Formula 1, Manipulation of the fuel regulations, (we think). No action in a secret agreement.

Cheating in sport MUST be punished.

Formula One is an expensive hobby turned into a private club in charge of a lucrative show business. If it ever was a sport, it's over since Bernie's years at least. Sport rules have been replaced long ago by family agreements (Brabham, Benetton, McLaren ... I don't remember any of them getting a 2 years ban, for more obvious cheating than last years Ferrari unproven "manipulation of fuel regulations"). Anyway they won't ban one of the current club members, when no one wants to pay that much money to enter such a club.

That said, I believe that Ferrari not being "punished" but offered a "private arrangement" (whatever we think of the special status of Ferrari - I'm old enough to remember the time when Ferrari was the only synonimous of motor-racing), is simply due to the fact that they couldn't prove Ferrari cheated, and Ferrari couldn't prove they didn't.

Ferrari don't need to prove they were not cheating it was for the FIA to prove that they were.

If you can't prove that someone is cheating then the verdict reached has to be not guilty, that being the case why the financial settlement?

The idea of it being a compromised agreement is somewhat of a nonsense in respect that guilt could not be ascertained, in essence a financial settlement is a fine, a fine is issued to people that are guilty.

allowed to cheat? This is rich coming from so many teams pushing the limits of the rules. Is MB cheating for an almost certain challenge against them regarding DAS? No simply someone reviews the rules has one way to explain then someone has another. It happens often. Look I think you will see a Racing Point challenge at Australia and a MB challenge. Now if both are classified to be not in spirit of the rules is this cheating? No it's simply understanding the clarifications of the rules. Ferrari did not get a challenge until RB and therefore it's been looked into. BTW where does it say Ferrari was caught cheating? I kinda missed that whole press release by the FIA. If someone can point to exactly where the FIA said Ferrari cheated then we can discuss that otherwise the whole cheating comments are a bunch of opinions...and we all know what opinions are like...

AstoriaisBACK wrote:allowed to cheat? This is rich coming from so many teams pushing the limits of the rules. Is MB cheating for an almost certain challenge against them regarding DAS? No simply someone reviews the rules has one way to explain then someone has another. It happens often. Look I think you will see a Racing Point challenge at Australia and a MB challenge. Now if both are classified to be not in spirit of the rules is this cheating? No it's simply understanding the clarifications of the rules. Ferrari did not get a challenge until RB and therefore it's been looked into. BTW where does it say Ferrari was caught cheating? I kinda missed that whole press release by the FIA. If someone can point to exactly where the FIA said Ferrari cheated then we can discuss that otherwise the whole cheating comments are a bunch of opinions...and we all know what opinions are like...

A statement that Ferrari were cheating was not released simply for the negative and damaging connotations that it may impact on F1, it seems it worked in respect for some people as they lay down their defence of Ferrari.

In respect to DAS it was presented to FIA before it's implementation, did Ferrari propose to the FIA what they intended to do in respect to the fuel flow sensor before implementation, is it alright if we cheat the fuel flow sensor?

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You missed out ;

Were Ferrari fined ? ( Answer, yes)

Have the FIA a history of covering up cheating in F1 ? (Answer, yes)

Have the FIA got a vested interest in not revealing that Ferrari cheated ? (Answer, yes)

Do the FIA totally control the release of information about this incidence ? (Answer, yes)

And a particular question for you, personally, why were Ferrari fined ?

-----------------------

And, just to correct your "claims" with regards to this ;

".... So there is no proof they were cheating

Correct......"

The Question should be, "So, is there any publically accessible proof that Ferrari were cheating",

To which the answer is "No, any such information is controlled by the FIA (and Ferrari)"

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Greenman wrote:.

You missed out ;

Were Ferrari fined ? ( Answer, yes)

Have the FIA a history of covering up cheating in F1 ? (Answer, yes)

Have the FIA got a vested interest in not revealing that Ferrari cheated ? (Answer, yes)

Do the FIA totally control the release of information about this incidence ? (Answer, yes)

And a particular question for you, personally, why were Ferrari fined ?

-----------------------

And, just to correct your "claims" with regards to this ;

".... So there is no proof they were cheating

Correct......"

The Question should be, "So, is there any publically accessible proof that Ferrari were cheating",

To which the answer is "No, any such information is controlled by the FIA (and Ferrari)"

.

Do you think my post is an argument that Ferrari wasn't cheating?

Alienturnedhuman wrote:Do you think my post is an argument that Ferrari wasn't cheating?

I think you were saying that they were very likely to have been cheating but it will never be proven.

pokerman wrote:

Harpo wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:I don't like this one bit.
Take 2 different sports, Football, Manchester City, Investigated for financial irregularities (Appeal in progress) 2 year Ban. Rugby Union, breach of salary cap Automatic relegation. Formula 1, Manipulation of the fuel regulations, (we think). No action in a secret agreement.

Cheating in sport MUST be punished.

Formula One is an expensive hobby turned into a private club in charge of a lucrative show business. If it ever was a sport, it's over since Bernie's years at least. Sport rules have been replaced long ago by family agreements (Brabham, Benetton, McLaren ... I don't remember any of them getting a 2 years ban, for more obvious cheating than last years Ferrari unproven "manipulation of fuel regulations"). Anyway they won't ban one of the current club members, when no one wants to pay that much money to enter such a club.

That said, I believe that Ferrari not being "punished" but offered a "private arrangement" (whatever we think of the special status of Ferrari - I'm old enough to remember the time when Ferrari was the only synonimous of motor-racing), is simply due to the fact that they couldn't prove Ferrari cheated, and Ferrari couldn't prove they didn't.

Ferrari don't need to prove they were not cheating it was for the FIA to prove that they were.

If you can't prove that someone is cheating then the verdict reached has to be not guilty, that being the case why the financial settlement?

The idea of it being a compromised agreement is somewhat of a nonsense in respect that guilt could not be ascertained, in essence a financial settlement is a fine, a fine is issued to people that are guilty.

Of course... I was just slightly sarcastic. Because, whatever the infringement of the rules was (except the ones who know and are silent, everybody else is just speculating), the fact that the FIA felt the need to add precisions to their rules rather than punish the alleged "cheater", make me think that it had more to do with "the spirit and the letter" of the said rule, than a clear breach of it.

Alienturnedhuman wrote:Does the statement from FIA state that Ferrari was cheating?

No.

Does the statement from the FIA state that Ferrari was not cheating?

No.

Were Ferrari accused of cheating?

Yes.

What were Ferrari accused of doing?

Tricking the fuel flow sensor to under report how much fuel was being used.

What has caused people to suspect this?

* GPS traces of Ferrari's acceleration led other teams to suspect foul play, that they were using more fuel than allowed to get more power
* After the FIA issued technical clarifications and further checks, Ferrari's straight line speed seemed to be lower - however Ferrari said this was due to running high downforce set ups
* in Abu Dhabi, Ferrari had under declared the fuel weight on one of their cars, only discovered due to a random check
* in pre season testing Ferrari's straight line speed is noticeably lower than last season, although they claim this is due to increased downforce.
* Ferrari has now stated that their 2020 engine is less powerful than their 2019 engine, claiming this is for extra reliability. This is strange because their 2019 engine was not particularly unreliable, and it would be expected that there would have been further performance gains season on season.

This is all circumstantial evidence

Yes

Does any non circumstantial evidence exist?

As the FIA and Ferrari are not releasing any information about the investigation, we do not know. But if there is no non-circumstantial evidence it is strange that Ferrari would want that kept secret.

Aha! But that still doesn't prove anything, does it?

Correct.

So there is no proof they were cheating

Correct.

So it is fair to say argue that they are innocent.

Perhaps you should Google "Occam's Razor"

The FIA certainly did no favours to anyone with this statement. They should have been more discreet.

It does stink to high heavens, but I am not sure it is 100% as it seems, I have a soft spot for Ferrari and I would prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt! Apart from joking, it may mean that they have discovered a loophole, took advantage of it and when pressed by the FIA, they helped to plug it in exchange for not losing their points. Someone mentioned Benetton '94 and it could be exactly like that: the traction control business I mean. So cheating or ingenious?

I am not sure that the FIA would allow a team to cheat, have them investigated so many times, installed extra sensors, etc., only to then come out and say that yeah, they were cheating but we let them off. Even considering that they were pampering Ferrari because of the veto, it just doesn't add up coming out now with this statement, it makes them look like idiots.

Overall, even if it is circumstantial evidence, it is pretty damning, isn't it?

Siao7 wrote:The FIA certainly did no favours to anyone with this statement. They should have been more discreet.

It does stink to high heavens, but I am not sure it is 100% as it seems, I have a soft spot for Ferrari and I would prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt! Apart from joking, it may mean that they have discovered a loophole, took advantage of it and when pressed by the FIA, they helped to plug it in exchange for not losing their points. Someone mentioned Benetton '94 and it could be exactly like that: the traction control business I mean. So cheating or ingenious?

I am not sure that the FIA would allow a team to cheat, have them investigated so many times, installed extra sensors, etc., only to then come out and say that yeah, they were cheating but we let them off. Even considering that they were pampering Ferrari because of the veto, it just doesn't add up coming out now with this statement, it makes them look like idiots.

Overall, even if it is circumstantial evidence, it is pretty damning, isn't it?

I for one believed that last season Ferrari were sailing close to the wind so to speak, I also thought that being the case that Ferrari would never be thrown out of the results because of the damage to the sport and it would be a simple slap on the wrist and you can't do that anymore.

However the FIA statement seems to be a halfway house to that, why have they done that, you say it makes them look like idiots, I think they also have had to appease some of the other teams who wouldn't be happy with Ferrari basically coming out of the investigation smelling of roses, even now it's been said some teams aren't happy with what they see as leniency towards Ferrari.

Let's also not forget that this is not simply a closed shop investigation, some teams had to put the FIA on the right track in the first place as to what Ferrari might be doing, the FIA themselves were somewhat clueless, given the input into the investigation from other teams I would be guessing this wasn't something they could simply brush under the table in respect to some of the other teams hence the statement.

I mean come on, it's not like one of the Ferrari drivers is managed by somebody who's dad happens to work fairly high up in the FIA is it..

The timing of the release, the vagueness, the lack of substance - it's a right mess.

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:The FIA certainly did no favours to anyone with this statement. They should have been more discreet.

It does stink to high heavens, but I am not sure it is 100% as it seems, I have a soft spot for Ferrari and I would prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt! Apart from joking, it may mean that they have discovered a loophole, took advantage of it and when pressed by the FIA, they helped to plug it in exchange for not losing their points. Someone mentioned Benetton '94 and it could be exactly like that: the traction control business I mean. So cheating or ingenious?

I am not sure that the FIA would allow a team to cheat, have them investigated so many times, installed extra sensors, etc., only to then come out and say that yeah, they were cheating but we let them off. Even considering that they were pampering Ferrari because of the veto, it just doesn't add up coming out now with this statement, it makes them look like idiots.

Overall, even if it is circumstantial evidence, it is pretty damning, isn't it?

I for one believed that last season Ferrari were sailing close to the wind so to speak, I also thought that being the case that Ferrari would never be thrown out of the results because of the damage to the sport and it would be a simple slap on the wrist and you can't do that anymore.

However the FIA statement seems to be a halfway house to that, why have they done that, you say it makes them look like idiots, I think they also have had to appease some of the other teams who wouldn't be happy with Ferrari basically coming out of the investigation smelling of roses, even now it's been said some teams aren't happy with what they see as leniency towards Ferrari.

Let's also not forget that this is not simply a closed shop investigation, some teams had to put the FIA on the right track in the first place as to what Ferrari might be doing, the FIA themselves were somewhat clueless, given the input into the investigation from other teams I would be guessing this wasn't something they could simply brush under the table in respect to some of the other teams hence the statement.

I'm not sure they came out smelling of roses exactly, they were investigated so many times and while no one could find anything, the stain remained. But I think no team ever accused them formally, did they? Ferrari voluntarily agreed to all of these investigations, when they could have just tell everyone to gherkin off.

I am not saying that this is proof that they are innocent, before anyone assumes this. I also think that they were sailing too close to the wind, I find this whole ordeal fishy as hell and as the article says, why issue this statement, what kind of settlement was this, wth is going on frankly? The way we stand, I do not think that they will tell us anything more, I'll just wait to see the official teams responses and what the FIA will reply (if they reply at all). This statement is like rubbing it in to everyone else, such poor taste.

Anyway, all I was trying to express is that while there is obviously more than we can see, it may not necessarily be that sinister. Although it damn right looks like it.

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IF Ferrari were so innocent, why were they fined, and all the information withheld ?

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Greenman wrote:.

IF Ferrari were so innocent, why were they fined, and all the information withheld ?

.

Which fine are you referring to?

Siao7 wrote:

Greenman wrote:.

IF Ferrari were so innocent, why were they fined, and all the information withheld ?

.

Which fine are you referring to?

That would be the settlement with Ferrari I believe putting money into some FIA projects?

That was clearly no innocent verdict being put out by the FIA and if Ferrari were innocent I'm not sure I would be happy with the FIA statement?

pokerman wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Greenman wrote:.

IF Ferrari were so innocent, why were they fined, and all the information withheld ?

.

Which fine are you referring to?

That would be the settlement with Ferrari I believe putting money into some FIA projects?

That was clearly no innocent verdict being put out by the FIA and if Ferrari were innocent I'm not sure I would be happy with the FIA statement?

Ah, I see. They have agreed to assist with some technical stuff for engine monitoring and some research on carbon emissions. I guess this sounds like "community service", that's why I got confused, as they were never exactly "fined".

.

And all this "generosity" from Ferrari is purely just happenstance ?

I don't know how you can take Ferrari and the FIA seriously.

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Sorry - duplicate post

https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2 ... ehnYmhu4Sk

Statement from the other teams.

shoot999 wrote:https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2 ... ehnYmhu4Sk

Statement from the other teams.

Good on them. I' glad they're standing up to this.

Greenman wrote:.

And all this "generosity" from Ferrari is purely just happenstance ?

I don't know how you can take Ferrari and the FIA seriously.

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No, just read what I wrote again. It stinks, but we just don't know yet.