planetf1.com

Covalent wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote: No we obviously don't change the rules, I think the penalty no penalty decision just shouldn't depend on whether the innocent party bails out off the track or not.

This was said in Monza and Leclerc should not have won the race, the stewards decided otherwise, people ask for consistency but then others are happy for inconsistency for some reason.

Well apparently you were calling out for penalties in Monza but not in Austin so maybe it's you that's not very consistent. Or do you think Leclerc in Monza was the first driver in history not penalized for forcing another car off the track?

Not long ago it was a slam dunk penalty for moving in the braking zone and forcing another car off the track, for what Hamilton did nobody gets penalised for running a car that is behind off the track on corner entry, so for starters the 2 incidents are not the same.

Why am I going to call for Hamilton to be penalised for doing something less worse then what happened to him in Monza that was unpenalised, this being explained away by Masi at the time because there was no contact, seriously?

That's like saying it's ok to steal because other people have got away with murder.

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote: No we obviously don't change the rules, I think the penalty no penalty decision just shouldn't depend on whether the innocent party bails out off the track or not.

This was said in Monza and Leclerc should not have won the race, the stewards decided otherwise, people ask for consistency but then others are happy for inconsistency for some reason.

Well apparently you were calling out for penalties in Monza but not in Austin so maybe it's you that's not very consistent. Or do you think Leclerc in Monza was the first driver in history not penalized for forcing another car off the track?

Not long ago it was a slam dunk penalty for moving in the braking zone and forcing another car off the track, for what Hamilton did nobody gets penalised for running a car that is behind off the track on corner entry, so for starters the 2 incidents are not the same.

Why am I going to call for Hamilton to be penalised for doing something less worse then what happened to him in Monza that was unpenalised, this being explained away by Masi at the time because there was no contact, seriously?

It was you that brought up Monza as an example as being a similar incidents that didn't result in a penalty so it was similar enough for you then!

When I questioned that you doubled down and said this -

"I don't understand how it's different, it's a driver running another driver off the track and comment being made, this time It's being suggested that Hamilton be penalised when neither of the previous drivers got penalised for things that I would consider to have been worse"


But now it's not the same?

Asphalt_World wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Greenman wrote: Look on the http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15448 thread

.

Wow Hamilton actually said that Ferrari have lost power since the FIA technical directive.

I think it's very clear.

Apparently Verstappen was asked why Ferrari performed so poorly and he said because they are no longer cheating.

Not exactly handing in his CV for a future Ferrari drive there Max!

F1 Racer wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:Kvyat surely had the nerve to be angry for the 5-second penalty he received for colliding with Checo. It's clearly his fault & well deserved. Video of the collision below:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... du0bX.html

Another example of being forced off the track at corner exit being punishable, to all those naysayers that say it never gets punished.

It does seem like the outside driver needs to hold firm and stay on track and actually let themselves be physically bopped off the track by the other car in order to get the other driver penalised though, however in Austria Leclerc did exactly this and held his ground but Max was not penalised...

F1 Racer wrote:

FormulaFun wrote:

Fiki wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

Fiki wrote:I enjoyed the race, but I do feel they should be far stricter about cars going outside the track all the time.

Also didn't LH force VB off the track and it went unpunished?

Remember the 'explanation' Charlie Whiting gave a few years ago? Hamilton was ahead at the apex, and according to Whiting, that gives the driver ahead the right to run the outside car off the track.
I've already said this many times, but I'm still to come across a rule in the sporting code that actually allows this. And I still haven't.

I agree that they should not allow drivers to edge others off the circuit on corner exit, but to suddenly start calling for penalities here (not referring to you here) is pretty funny. This style of racing has long been accepted by the stewards, to penalise Lewis for the move on Valterri would be completely out of the blue with no precedent. General consensus here after Monza - I am referring now to Sainz pushing Albon into the freaking gravel - that it was horses for courses and Albon was stupid for trying to stick it out. Hilarious watching peoples opinions change like p*** in the wind really.

I personally think they shouldn't allow it - but you need to make that clear to the drivers before the fact, not suddenly after having it been accepted by the stewards for pretty much all of racing history - I mean I certainly can't remember any circumstance where a driver was penalised for this

Yes, I was calling for a penalty for LH forcing VB off, (in the end it wasn't needed because VB got past later on, but if LH had won, his defensive driving was wrong and he deserved a penalty). Also a 5 second penalty would have dropped LH back to 3rd behind Max, so perhaps they should have dished it out anyway.

Then we see literally a few minutes later in the race, Kyvat gets a 5 second penalty for forcing another driver off the track, so this is no sudden call for penalties for something that typically never gets punished. This kind of thing does indeed get punished a reasonable amount of the time, particularly when we also include Leclerc at turn 2 in Japan.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

kleefton wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:Kvyat surely had the nerve to be angry for the 5-second penalty he received for colliding with Checo. It's clearly his fault & well deserved. Video of the collision below:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... du0bX.html

Typical Kvyat, he so deserves the torpedo moniker. It seems ever since Albon got promoted over him, his performances have been shockingly bad and it looks like he is trying way too hard and looks clumsy in the process. The move on Hulk at Mexico was so bad. That's just somebody sticking his nose when he knows fully well the move was not on at all.

I think you are being incredibly harsh on kvyat. That move in Mexico was a tiny bit of a nudge. I can't deny that it was wrong in the end, but Verstappen has done these moves before and simply relied on the driver ahead giving more space which usually happens.

You can hardly say all his performances have been shockingly bad since Albon got promoted either... You seem to be basing this on two light contacts right at the end of the race when his actual performance wasn't that bad - actually they were quite good. I also think that Gasly is well suited to his car and Kvyat hasn't exactly gone backwards. Gasly just did not work out at Red Bull.

Did you watch the first race after this switch happened? Kvyat driving up in 6th position for a good deal of the race and finished in 7th 20 seconds ahead of Gasly.

Italy, Kvyat comfortably ahead of Gasly until he had to retire.

I expect you to have a different view on the move on kimi in Singapore, but the stewards did note that he will have made that corner and they also noted that Kimi should have been more aware. He was harvesting energy so he should have expected that this will have given an opportunity to kvyat because of the massive speed difference. Gasly had a great race here. Kvyat was not great, but wasn't poor either.

He beats Gasly in Russia and the car didn't look good there at all anyway.

Japan he was comfortably beaten by Gasly by 10 seconds. But I honestly think Gasly is a different driver now. I was so critical towards him when he was at Red Bull, but he seems pretty good here.

I don't really know what you mean by shocking performance. His race in Mexico overall was not bad. It was simply one bad move which i can understand you can call poor. But poor performance that race? - Overall i just can't agree with that.

Even the most recent race, he did in the end out race his team mate. Overtook him right near the end and was very quick at this stage. He unfortunately had a really slow pit stop earlier on which won't have helped. His performance again was pretty good. And I will admit, he did ruin it a bit at the end. But i think you are being way too critical towards him.

He simply hasn't been that bad this season. I feel the same way about Grosjean. I think some people just base drivers seasons too heavily on their past and miss out the good things they have done this season. He's had a podium while the other 2 team mates of his have both had a chance at Red Bull and have not yet done so.

His season has not been excellent and he has had a few avoidable incidents (but so has Verstappen?), but nowhere near as bad as you seem to be making it look.

pokerman wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:Kvyat surely had the nerve to be angry for the 5-second penalty he received for colliding with Checo. It's clearly his fault & well deserved. Video of the collision below:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... du0bX.html

Another example of being forced off the track at corner exit being punishable, to all those naysayers that say it never gets punished.

It does seem like the outside driver needs to hold firm and stay on track and actually let themselves be physically bopped off the track by the other car in order to get the other driver penalised though, however in Austria Leclerc did exactly this and held his ground but Max was not penalised...

Masi has actually said that, we didn't penalise because there was no contact, not sure how that worked with Verstappen and Leclerc though?

kleefton wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:Kvyat surely had the nerve to be angry for the 5-second penalty he received for colliding with Checo. It's clearly his fault & well deserved. Video of the collision below:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... du0bX.html

Typical Kvyat, he so deserves the torpedo moniker. It seems ever since Albon got promoted over him, his performances have been shockingly bad and it looks like he is trying way too hard and looks clumsy in the process. The move on Hulk at Mexico was so bad. That's just somebody sticking his nose when he knows fully well the move was not on at all.

F1 Racer wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:Kvyat surely had the nerve to be angry for the 5-second penalty he received for colliding with Checo. It's clearly his fault & well deserved. Video of the collision below:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... du0bX.html

Another example of being forced off the track at corner exit being punishable, to all those naysayers that say it never gets punished.

It does seem like the outside driver needs to hold firm and stay on track and actually let themselves be physically bopped off the track by the other car in order to get the other driver penalised though, however in Austria Leclerc did exactly this and held his ground but Max was not penalised...

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote:

pokerman wrote: This was said in Monza and Leclerc should not have won the race, the stewards decided otherwise, people ask for consistency but then others are happy for inconsistency for some reason.

Well apparently you were calling out for penalties in Monza but not in Austin so maybe it's you that's not very consistent. Or do you think Leclerc in Monza was the first driver in history not penalized for forcing another car off the track?

Not long ago it was a slam dunk penalty for moving in the braking zone and forcing another car off the track, for what Hamilton did nobody gets penalised for running a car that is behind off the track on corner entry, so for starters the 2 incidents are not the same.

Why am I going to call for Hamilton to be penalised for doing something less worse then what happened to him in Monza that was unpenalised, this being explained away by Masi at the time because there was no contact, seriously?

That's like saying it's ok to steal because other people have got away with murder.

What kind of analogy is that, that relates to a sporting situation?

Masi set his stall out by not penalising Leclerc, Hamilton did something not as bad but he should be penalised, people complain about inconsistencies in the stewarding but that seems to be what is wanted, maybe it relates to who people support or don't support?

kleefton wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

kleefton wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:Kvyat surely had the nerve to be angry for the 5-second penalty he received for colliding with Checo. It's clearly his fault & well deserved. Video of the collision below:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... du0bX.html

Typical Kvyat, he so deserves the torpedo moniker. It seems ever since Albon got promoted over him, his performances have been shockingly bad and it looks like he is trying way too hard and looks clumsy in the process. The move on Hulk at Mexico was so bad. That's just somebody sticking his nose when he knows fully well the move was not on at all.

I think you are being incredibly harsh on kvyat. That move in Mexico was a tiny bit of a nudge. I can't deny that it was wrong in the end, but Verstappen has done these moves before and simply relied on the driver ahead giving more space which usually happens.

You can hardly say all his performances have been shockingly bad since Albon got promoted either... You seem to be basing this on two light contacts right at the end of the race when his actual performance wasn't that bad - actually they were quite good. I also think that Gasly is well suited to his car and Kvyat hasn't exactly gone backwards. Gasly just did not work out at Red Bull.

Did you watch the first race after this switch happened? Kvyat driving up in 6th position for a good deal of the race and finished in 7th 20 seconds ahead of Gasly.

Italy, Kvyat comfortably ahead of Gasly until he had to retire.

I expect you to have a different view on the move on kimi in Singapore, but the stewards did note that he will have made that corner and they also noted that Kimi should have been more aware. He was harvesting energy so he should have expected that this will have given an opportunity to kvyat because of the massive speed difference. Gasly had a great race here. Kvyat was not great, but wasn't poor either.

He beats Gasly in Russia and the car didn't look good there at all anyway.

Japan he was comfortably beaten by Gasly by 10 seconds. But I honestly think Gasly is a different driver now. I was so critical towards him when he was at Red Bull, but he seems pretty good here.

I don't really know what you mean by shocking performance. His race in Mexico overall was not bad. It was simply one bad move which i can understand you can call poor. But poor performance that race? - Overall i just can't agree with that.

Even the most recent race, he did in the end out race his team mate. Overtook him right near the end and was very quick at this stage. He unfortunately had a really slow pit stop earlier on which won't have helped. His performance again was pretty good. And I will admit, he did ruin it a bit at the end. But i think you are being way too critical towards him.

He simply hasn't been that bad this season. I feel the same way about Grosjean. I think some people just base drivers seasons too heavily on their past and miss out the good things they have done this season. He's had a podium while the other 2 team mates of his have both had a chance at Red Bull and have not yet done so.

His season has not been excellent and he has had a few avoidable incidents (but so has Verstappen?), but nowhere near as bad as you seem to be making it look.

To me I see a driver who has made bad decisions and affectted three different drivers races since the summer break. You can bring up Verstappen or anybody else that drives agressively, but you can't fault them when they get away with it more often than not while Kvyat's attempts usually end up in tears. The move on Kimi was not on at all. He came from way too far behind. The one on Hulk was the worst one because there was no chance Hulk is going to see him and get out of the way at that particular corner. The Perez one was not as bad, but he lacked finesse and didn't leave enough space. Like I said, it all looks clumsy and like he is trying too hard to prove a point. In this sport you can drive agressively if you get away with it cleanly like the Verstappens or even Ricciardos often do, but when there is contact and races ruined because of the agressiveness that's when it needs to stop.

His overall performance besides those incidents have not been good. He has been outqualified by a guy who moved to the team midseason, a guy that was getting lapped by his teammate. You mention Kvyat overtaking Gasly at COTA and seem to praise him for that but that was solely due to the tire strategy as Gasly was on a one stop and an absolute moving chicane towards the end and Kvyat was on a two stopper with much fresher soft tires. The two stopper was the faster strategy in Austin. But I personally don't put much value in race finishes with midfielders anyway because often the better they qualify the worst their chance is at finishing in front, and with traffic and first lap incidents I find it very difficult to judge accurately who has had the better Sunday between midfielders. Tire strategy and sheer luck plays too big a role imo, just like Gasly and Kvyat proved in Austin. But looking at the qualifying, Gasly has the upper hand so far. Their race pace seems to be pretty similar from what I could gather, Gasly's race craft has been better as well. So therefore since I value qualifying more, I think Gasly has outperformed him.

In my opinion Kvyat is affected by being slighted again by RBR, just like he did when RBR chose Verstappen over him. I think he was pretty good in the first half of the season. I actually like Kvyat, I was pretty upset when Redbull chose Albon over him as I thought he should get another shot at the big team, but since then Albon has easily shown more race craft than Kvyat could ever dream of so ultimately I feel that RBR has picked the right guy. And yes, I maintain that Kvyat is having a shockingly bad second half.

F1 Racer wrote:

pokerman wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:Kvyat surely had the nerve to be angry for the 5-second penalty he received for colliding with Checo. It's clearly his fault & well deserved. Video of the collision below:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... du0bX.html

Another example of being forced off the track at corner exit being punishable, to all those naysayers that say it never gets punished.

It does seem like the outside driver needs to hold firm and stay on track and actually let themselves be physically bopped off the track by the other car in order to get the other driver penalised though, however in Austria Leclerc did exactly this and held his ground but Max was not penalised...

Masi has actually said that, we didn't penalise because there was no contact, not sure how that worked with Verstappen and Leclerc though?

They didn't penalise Verstappen in Austria because it would have led to two races in a row having the winner be changed by a steward's decision, (in the previous race in Canada they took the win off Vettel for his offence of forcing Hamilton off the track**, WITHOUT contact I might add). This is still completely unacceptable but likely this is why they chose to let Max get away with breaking the rules in Austria.

**Before people chime in with the 'it was because of an unsafe rejoining of the track' argument, this was refuted at the time with appropriate links given which showed that the rationale for the penalty was actually Vettel veering his car across the track which forced Hamilton either (i) off the track into the wall or (ii) to brake sharply - obviously Hamilton elected for the latter option as there was a wall there; had there been no wall Hamilton would have elected to drive off the circuit.

Covalent wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:Kvyat surely had the nerve to be angry for the 5-second penalty he received for colliding with Checo. It's clearly his fault & well deserved. Video of the collision below:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... du0bX.html

Another example of being forced off the track at corner exit being punishable, to all those naysayers that say it never gets punished.

It does seem like the outside driver needs to hold firm and stay on track and actually let themselves be physically bopped off the track by the other car in order to get the other driver penalised though, however in Austria Leclerc did exactly this and held his ground but Max was not penalised...

That's a good point; had Perez gone off the track to avoid being hit Kvyat would probably not have been penalised.

Covalent wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote: Well apparently you were calling out for penalties in Monza but not in Austin so maybe it's you that's not very consistent. Or do you think Leclerc in Monza was the first driver in history not penalized for forcing another car off the track?

Not long ago it was a slam dunk penalty for moving in the braking zone and forcing another car off the track, for what Hamilton did nobody gets penalised for running a car that is behind off the track on corner entry, so for starters the 2 incidents are not the same.

Why am I going to call for Hamilton to be penalised for doing something less worse then what happened to him in Monza that was unpenalised, this being explained away by Masi at the time because there was no contact, seriously?

That's like saying it's ok to steal because other people have got away with murder.

What kind of analogy is that, that relates to a sporting situation?

Masi set his stall out by not penalising Leclerc, Hamilton did something not as bad but he should be penalised, people complain about inconsistencies in the stewarding but that seems to be what is wanted, maybe it relates to who people support or don't support?

A bit rich coming from you, I think both instances should have been penalised, you wanted to only Leclerc to be.

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:Kvyat surely had the nerve to be angry for the 5-second penalty he received for colliding with Checo. It's clearly his fault & well deserved. Video of the collision below:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... du0bX.html

Another example of being forced off the track at corner exit being punishable, to all those naysayers that say it never gets punished.

It does seem like the outside driver needs to hold firm and stay on track and actually let themselves be physically bopped off the track by the other car in order to get the other driver penalised though, however in Austria Leclerc did exactly this and held his ground but Max was not penalised...

That's a good point; had Perez gone off the track to avoid being hit Kvyat would probably not have been penalised.

That seems to be Masi's mode of operation.

F1 Racer wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Covalent wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:Kvyat surely had the nerve to be angry for the 5-second penalty he received for colliding with Checo. It's clearly his fault & well deserved. Video of the collision below:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... du0bX.html

Another example of being forced off the track at corner exit being punishable, to all those naysayers that say it never gets punished.

It does seem like the outside driver needs to hold firm and stay on track and actually let themselves be physically bopped off the track by the other car in order to get the other driver penalised though, however in Austria Leclerc did exactly this and held his ground but Max was not penalised...

That's a good point; had Perez gone off the track to avoid being hit Kvyat would probably not have been penalised.

That seems to be Masi's mode of operation.

It's like if there is contact between cars then the steward's thoughts are ''Oh damn, we have an incident to review here'' and then they will apply the crowding off the track rule to penalise people where appropriate, (with the one exception being Austria where they did still investigate it, but decided not to be consistent as that would involve changing the winner two races in a row and (unfairly) getting bad press for it).

Whereas if the outside driver successfully swerves away to avoid inevitable contact, (which they will frequently elect to do because they don't want car damage that could end their race and often there is lots of run off space to use), then the stewards take a view point of ''Phew, there was no contact there so we don't have to look into this, nothing to see here peeps!'' which is a really bad point of view to take when they aren't recognising that the outside driver has clearly been transgressed still by the inside driver and lost at least one place as a result of going off track. Just because the outside driver takes the sensible long game option of avoiding car damage to go along with being forced off the track and losing a place, the stewards should still be realising that a foul has been committed on that driver and that they need to intervene to uphold the integrity of the racing.

Was there contact in Italy between Sainz and Albon, I can't remember?

pokerman wrote: I'm not sure but Sainz did apologise, this indeed seems to be the case involving the stewards, in Monza Masi spelled it out when he said that if Leclerc's car had hit Hamilton's car then they would have had to penalise Leclerc.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:Did anyone else notice how poorly the trophies were handed out. I don't know who it is exactly behind trying to improve F1 with all these celebs and other things, but it really is making a mess of it sometimes. He tries to give Bottas's trophy to Hamilton, then the one for the Mercedes team to Hamilton. Then he finally worked out that the last two were for Hamilton and Verstappen in that order. I don't know if i should blame him, or a lack of organisation telling him what to do. But it was pretty hopeless and awkward to watch.

I want to create a thread about these things, but I don't know what to call it. The number of things that are being attempted to "improve" the coverage when i just don't think they are. Like the awful cluttered graphics, too many celebs clearly showing they are not good at their role and it does not end there. Plus being shown when an overtake is being done..... How much worse can it get?

If it is one thing behind all of this, if somebody could create a thread to discuss the issues, or let me know a good name for it, I would appreciate that.

F1_Ernie wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:Did anyone else notice how poorly the trophies were handed out. I don't know who it is exactly behind trying to improve F1 with all these celebs and other things, but it really is making a mess of it sometimes. He tries to give Bottas's trophy to Hamilton, then the one for the Mercedes team to Hamilton. Then he finally worked out that the last two were for Hamilton and Verstappen in that order. I don't know if i should blame him, or a lack of organisation telling him what to do. But it was pretty hopeless and awkward to watch.

I want to create a thread about these things, but I don't know what to call it. The number of things that are being attempted to "improve" the coverage when i just don't think they are. Like the awful cluttered graphics, too many celebs clearly showing they are not good at their role and it does not end there. Plus being shown when an overtake is being done..... How much worse can it get?

If it is one thing behind all of this, if somebody could create a thread to discuss the issues, or let me know a good name for it, I would appreciate that.

It will only get worse with Liberty involved.

F1 Racer wrote:

pokerman wrote: I'm not sure but Sainz did apologise, this indeed seems to be the case involving the stewards, in Monza Masi spelled it out when he said that if Leclerc's car had hit Hamilton's car then they would have had to penalise Leclerc.

They are trying to stay out of things and ''let the drivers race'' so when there is no contact it gives them an excuse to keep out of it under the false pretense of ''if there is no contact then nothing has happened'', even though this rationale is clearly not right a good portion of the time. So really the only response to this is drivers need to make sure contact happens like Perez did by staying on track, and avoid doing what Bottas did.