2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

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Mercedes-Benz
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

Mort Canard wrote:Max earned every bit of his misfortune this weekend.
1. He richly deserved the three place grid penalty for not lifting in Q3 when going by yellow flags and passing the wrecked Valtteri Bottas.
2. He tried to shove Lewis out of the way and ended up in P8 for his efforts behind Valtteri Bottas.
3. He tried to shove Valtteri out of the way in the stadium section and got a puncture for his efforts. Max ended up at the tail of the field after having new tires installed!!

All hail, what many claim is the best driver currently in Formula One!!

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I think he is the best. But may be too impatient. After the summer break with Ferrari outperforming RBR. This has rattled him little bit. What Hamilton said after qualifying and he got the penalty just added more fuel in the fire.
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Option or Prime
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Option or Prime »

Which is of course a weakness, to learn in a press conference World Champions leave him extra space because of his driving style is a sad comment. He loses his cool, I'm not at all sure that is the temperament of a future World Champion.

To be a maverick is cool for only so long, if his style starts to hurt the sponsors brand it could all go wrong!

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by sandman1347 »

Option or Prime wrote:Which is of course a weakness, to learn in a press conference World Champions leave him extra space because of his driving style is a sad comment. He loses his cool, I'm not at all sure that is the temperament of a future World Champion.

To be a maverick is cool for only so long, if his style starts to hurt the sponsors brand it could all go wrong!
I think Max is a future world champion but the idea that he is the best right now is one I can't take seriously. Hamilton is as fast as they come, as complete as they come and as proven as they come and he has learned all of the lessons that Max is (hopefully) learning now. Max will probably be the best in the world some day but he has to actually get there for me to credit him with that title.

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Rockie »

Option or Prime wrote:
Rockie wrote: There's never a time you don't have a dig at Vettel from a very partisan view.
Ermm… Have you ever heard the expression, "pot calling the kettle back"?
Pot calling Kettle black you mean, and it does not apply here.

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

Plenty of loving from Lewis and Seb in that press conference, alot was made of the incident at turn 1 but there was nothing wrong with it and just a racing incident. Was any questions asked about why Verstappen was next to Hamilton into turn 1?, I got to laugh when Hamilton is sitting next to someone who has been fighting for the championship is involved in more incidents than anyone. Was only 2 years ago at Mexico Lewis asked if Seb hit him on purpose. I'm not even a fan of Max but I think he will take it as a compliment, the loving from Hamilton and Vettel is because he will become a threat with the right car.
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by sidders »

sandman1347 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Which is of course a weakness, to learn in a press conference World Champions leave him extra space because of his driving style is a sad comment. He loses his cool, I'm not at all sure that is the temperament of a future World Champion.

To be a maverick is cool for only so long, if his style starts to hurt the sponsors brand it could all go wrong!
I think Max is a future world champion but the idea that he is the best right now is one I can't take seriously. Hamilton is as fast as they come, as complete as they come and as proven as they come and he has learned all of the lessons that Max is (hopefully) learning now. Max will probably be the best in the world some day but he has to actually get there for me to credit him with that title.
Totally agree. Max might be very fast but he still has much to learn. Hopefully he will mature and become the complete package but at the moment he has a long way to go and not on LH level

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by shoot999 »

https://f1.channel4.com/video/top-three ... om-mexico/

Vettel highlights the fringe benefits of good tyre management

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Clarky »

F1 Racer wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
sidders wrote:Yes other drivers did similar stints to Lewis but the fact his floor was badly damaged seems to be ignored. Would have been having an impact on the car's performance so do think he deserves some credit
We don't know how badly damaged it was. The fact that he won the race shows that it likely wasn't affected at all.
What kind of logic is that? He won the race so his performance must not have been that special? You don't even realize that almost all of your arguments amount to nothing but predetermined opinions and then confirmation bias?
People talk about damaged floors all the time but it is hard to significantly damage the floor of the car due to it's ''hard to hit'' location on the underside of the car. Just because someone has a bit of contact and runs off the track for a bit, the vast majority of the time the car's floor is fine.
Did you see the floor damage?

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Clarky »

F1 Racer wrote:
sidders wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
sidders wrote:Yes other drivers did similar stints to Lewis but the fact his floor was badly damaged seems to be ignored. Would have been having an impact on the car's performance so do think he deserves some credit
We don't know how badly damaged it was. The fact that he won the race shows that it likely wasn't affected at all.
There was a big chunk missing! It was bound to be effecting performance
Yes, losing a big chunk of weight from the car so he was able to run lighter, helping negate a lot of the small performance loss that that part of the car provided.
Oh my...!!!

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Clarky »

Asphalt_World wrote:Max lost a big chunk of weight from the car when his tyre came off, helping negate a lot of the small performance loss that part of the car provided.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Clarky »

Hamilton floor comparison.


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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Option or Prime »

Rockie wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Rockie wrote: There's never a time you don't have a dig at Vettel from a very partisan view.
Ermm… Have you ever heard the expression, "pot calling the kettle back"?
Pot calling Kettle black you mean, and it does not apply here.
Kind of you to point out my typo. Definition of "partisan" a strong supporter of a party, cause, or person. So you are not a partisan supporter of Vettel then?

Vettel was close to puncturing Leclerc`s tyre, Seb didn't need to worry though Ferrari did it for him.

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
TedStriker wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote: Coming from Vettel who is a 4 time world champion and has been racing for many years now and his race craft has been so poor the last 2-3 years, at least Verstappen has youth on his side, what's Vettels excuse? He did it again on Hamilton at the start.
Why does he need an excuse? He benefitted from it and there was no penalty. Sounds like a good move to me!

I think if it was earlier in the year and LH didn't have the WDC virtually wrapped up he'd have got his elbows out. Certainly post Monza he would have - he said as much after the race. Only DNFs can lose it for him now, so no point in tangling with others to prove a point.
You mis read my post. Vettel is criticising Max for his driving but the last 3 years Vettel's race craft has been terrible, some of the worst on the grid including today. What I mean is people can make excuses regarding Max's age but what's Vettel's excuse for the last 3 years? Regarding his move on Hamilton, you really think Vettel was going to get a penalty for that? No chance!! It was a dirty move and Hamilton nearly lost the car on the grass. If Hamilton got his elbows out they would have collided and been out the race, that's been Vettel's driving for a number of years now.
Indeed Vettel's driving at times has been over aggressive and clumsy and yesterday was little different, moving across on Hamilton not once but twice forcing him off the track and then ramming his teammate from behind.
There's never a time you don't have a dig at Vettel from a very partisan view.

Ramming really, Leclerc almost lost the car in the corner and Vettel touched him.
I heard it lifted Leclerc's car off the ground, you're not going to explain what Vettel did off the start though?
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Clarky wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:I have absolutely 0 faith on that graphic
Pirelli said they have no idea where they get them from but its not them.
I heard it's from Amazon, they have some kind of data contract with Liberty Media, I would be guessing it's not that accurate?
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

sidders wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Which is of course a weakness, to learn in a press conference World Champions leave him extra space because of his driving style is a sad comment. He loses his cool, I'm not at all sure that is the temperament of a future World Champion.

To be a maverick is cool for only so long, if his style starts to hurt the sponsors brand it could all go wrong!
I think Max is a future world champion but the idea that he is the best right now is one I can't take seriously. Hamilton is as fast as they come, as complete as they come and as proven as they come and he has learned all of the lessons that Max is (hopefully) learning now. Max will probably be the best in the world some day but he has to actually get there for me to credit him with that title.
Totally agree. Max might be very fast but he still has much to learn. Hopefully he will mature and become the complete package but at the moment he has a long way to go and not on LH level
It's strange how things have turned around, Hamilton was often considered reckless and perhaps not as cerebral as his counterparts in the first part of his F1 career, nowadays he seems almost Prost like in comparison to the likes of Verstappen, Vettel and Leclerc.
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Rockie »

Option or Prime wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Rockie wrote: There's never a time you don't have a dig at Vettel from a very partisan view.
Ermm… Have you ever heard the expression, "pot calling the kettle back"?
Pot calling Kettle black you mean, and it does not apply here.
Kind of you to point out my typo. Definition of "partisan" a strong supporter of a party, cause, or person. So you are not a partisan supporter of Vettel then?

Vettel was close to puncturing Leclerc`s tyre, Seb didn't need to worry though Ferrari did it for him.
Partisan here is being used to describe thus an adjective but I guess English is not your first language.

The rest of your post is what is described as a partisan view.

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Rockie »

pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote: Indeed Vettel's driving at times has been over aggressive and clumsy and yesterday was little different, moving across on Hamilton not once but twice forcing him off the track and then ramming his teammate from behind.
There's never a time you don't have a dig at Vettel from a very partisan view.

Ramming really, Leclerc almost lost the car in the corner and Vettel touched him.
I heard it lifted Leclerc's car off the ground, you're not going to explain what Vettel did off the start though?
Basically as you did not watch the race you had to hear about it :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I didn't realise I was asked about that, so I wonder why I need to explain it!

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote: Indeed Vettel's driving at times has been over aggressive and clumsy and yesterday was little different, moving across on Hamilton not once but twice forcing him off the track and then ramming his teammate from behind.
There's never a time you don't have a dig at Vettel from a very partisan view.

Ramming really, Leclerc almost lost the car in the corner and Vettel touched him.
I heard it lifted Leclerc's car off the ground, you're not going to explain what Vettel did off the start though?
Basically as you did not watch the race you had to hear about it :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I didn't realise I was asked about that, so I wonder why I need to explain it!
Or I simply didn't realise until it was said, you wasn't asked about Vettel's contact with Leclerc either yet here you are.
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Rockie »

pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote: Indeed Vettel's driving at times has been over aggressive and clumsy and yesterday was little different, moving across on Hamilton not once but twice forcing him off the track and then ramming his teammate from behind.
There's never a time you don't have a dig at Vettel from a very partisan view.

Ramming really, Leclerc almost lost the car in the corner and Vettel touched him.
I heard it lifted Leclerc's car off the ground, you're not going to explain what Vettel did off the start though?
Basically as you did not watch the race you had to hear about it :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I didn't realise I was asked about that, so I wonder why I need to explain it!
Or I simply didn't realise until it was said, you wasn't asked about Vettel's contact with Leclerc either yet here you are.
I replied to the nonsense you implied in your post saying "Vettel rammed Leclerc".

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

pokerman wrote:
sidders wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Which is of course a weakness, to learn in a press conference World Champions leave him extra space because of his driving style is a sad comment. He loses his cool, I'm not at all sure that is the temperament of a future World Champion.

To be a maverick is cool for only so long, if his style starts to hurt the sponsors brand it could all go wrong!
I think Max is a future world champion but the idea that he is the best right now is one I can't take seriously. Hamilton is as fast as they come, as complete as they come and as proven as they come and he has learned all of the lessons that Max is (hopefully) learning now. Max will probably be the best in the world some day but he has to actually get there for me to credit him with that title.
Totally agree. Max might be very fast but he still has much to learn. Hopefully he will mature and become the complete package but at the moment he has a long way to go and not on LH level
It's strange how things have turned around, Hamilton was often considered reckless and perhaps not as cerebral as his counterparts in the first part of his F1 career, nowadays he seems almost Prost like in comparison to the likes of Verstappen, Vettel and Leclerc.
But he is equally like Prost compared to Hamilton 2007-2011 as well.

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote: There's never a time you don't have a dig at Vettel from a very partisan view.

Ramming really, Leclerc almost lost the car in the corner and Vettel touched him.
I heard it lifted Leclerc's car off the ground, you're not going to explain what Vettel did off the start though?
Basically as you did not watch the race you had to hear about it :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I didn't realise I was asked about that, so I wonder why I need to explain it!
Or I simply didn't realise until it was said, you wasn't asked about Vettel's contact with Leclerc either yet here you are.
I replied to the nonsense you implied in your post saying "Vettel rammed Leclerc".
I guess it's down to semantics about hard he hit Leclerc's car, like I said I heard that Leclerc's car lifted off the ground, but anyway I listed that down to Vettel being clumsy rather than malicious, nothing to really write home about unlike perhaps his antics at the start?
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sidders wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Which is of course a weakness, to learn in a press conference World Champions leave him extra space because of his driving style is a sad comment. He loses his cool, I'm not at all sure that is the temperament of a future World Champion.

To be a maverick is cool for only so long, if his style starts to hurt the sponsors brand it could all go wrong!
I think Max is a future world champion but the idea that he is the best right now is one I can't take seriously. Hamilton is as fast as they come, as complete as they come and as proven as they come and he has learned all of the lessons that Max is (hopefully) learning now. Max will probably be the best in the world some day but he has to actually get there for me to credit him with that title.
Totally agree. Max might be very fast but he still has much to learn. Hopefully he will mature and become the complete package but at the moment he has a long way to go and not on LH level
It's strange how things have turned around, Hamilton was often considered reckless and perhaps not as cerebral as his counterparts in the first part of his F1 career, nowadays he seems almost Prost like in comparison to the likes of Verstappen, Vettel and Leclerc.
But he is equally like Prost compared to Hamilton 2007-2011 as well.
Yes perhaps I wasn't being clear enough, Hamilton himself has changed.
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Covalent »

pokerman wrote:
sidders wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Which is of course a weakness, to learn in a press conference World Champions leave him extra space because of his driving style is a sad comment. He loses his cool, I'm not at all sure that is the temperament of a future World Champion.

To be a maverick is cool for only so long, if his style starts to hurt the sponsors brand it could all go wrong!
I think Max is a future world champion but the idea that he is the best right now is one I can't take seriously. Hamilton is as fast as they come, as complete as they come and as proven as they come and he has learned all of the lessons that Max is (hopefully) learning now. Max will probably be the best in the world some day but he has to actually get there for me to credit him with that title.
Totally agree. Max might be very fast but he still has much to learn. Hopefully he will mature and become the complete package but at the moment he has a long way to go and not on LH level
It's strange how things have turned around, Hamilton was often considered reckless and perhaps not as cerebral as his counterparts in the first part of his F1 career, nowadays he seems almost Prost like in comparison to the likes of Verstappen, Vettel and Leclerc.
It's called experience I think.

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sidders wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Which is of course a weakness, to learn in a press conference World Champions leave him extra space because of his driving style is a sad comment. He loses his cool, I'm not at all sure that is the temperament of a future World Champion.

To be a maverick is cool for only so long, if his style starts to hurt the sponsors brand it could all go wrong!
I think Max is a future world champion but the idea that he is the best right now is one I can't take seriously. Hamilton is as fast as they come, as complete as they come and as proven as they come and he has learned all of the lessons that Max is (hopefully) learning now. Max will probably be the best in the world some day but he has to actually get there for me to credit him with that title.
Totally agree. Max might be very fast but he still has much to learn. Hopefully he will mature and become the complete package but at the moment he has a long way to go and not on LH level
It's strange how things have turned around, Hamilton was often considered reckless and perhaps not as cerebral as his counterparts in the first part of his F1 career, nowadays he seems almost Prost like in comparison to the likes of Verstappen, Vettel and Leclerc.
It's called experience I think.
Indeed but it's not a given you acquire that looking at Vettel in particular.
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sidders wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Which is of course a weakness, to learn in a press conference World Champions leave him extra space because of his driving style is a sad comment. He loses his cool, I'm not at all sure that is the temperament of a future World Champion.

To be a maverick is cool for only so long, if his style starts to hurt the sponsors brand it could all go wrong!
I think Max is a future world champion but the idea that he is the best right now is one I can't take seriously. Hamilton is as fast as they come, as complete as they come and as proven as they come and he has learned all of the lessons that Max is (hopefully) learning now. Max will probably be the best in the world some day but he has to actually get there for me to credit him with that title.
Totally agree. Max might be very fast but he still has much to learn. Hopefully he will mature and become the complete package but at the moment he has a long way to go and not on LH level
It's strange how things have turned around, Hamilton was often considered reckless and perhaps not as cerebral as his counterparts in the first part of his F1 career, nowadays he seems almost Prost like in comparison to the likes of Verstappen, Vettel and Leclerc.
It's called experience I think.
I've never seen a driver totally transform in the way Hamilton has. Alonso always managed a race like Alonso, Vettel like Vettel, Schumacher like Schumacher.

Hamilton has altered from a gungho win at all costs kind of guy to the ultimate percentage player.

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by shay550 »

The battles he had with Nico for three seasons taught him a lot. The level of intensity in that rivalry with only two drivers with a realistic shot at the title. They both had similar level of experience and age. It was the ultimate test, and Lewis learned that consistency mixed with controlled aggression was really the way forward.

Max is in the perfect incubator environment to be World Champ someday and I think from his point of view he has nothing to lose if he’s a little more aggressive now, and riles a few people. When he’s in a world championship winning car he will dial it back.

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Mort Canard »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote: It's strange how things have turned around, Hamilton was often considered reckless and perhaps not as cerebral as his counterparts in the first part of his F1 career, nowadays he seems almost Prost like in comparison to the likes of Verstappen, Vettel and Leclerc.
It's called experience I think.
I've never seen a driver totally transform in the way Hamilton has. Alonso always managed a race like Alonso, Vettel like Vettel, Schumacher like Schumacher.

Hamilton has altered from a gungho win at all costs kind of guy to the ultimate percentage player.
:thumbup: :nod:

Lewis will still try a Bonsai move on occasion but he also has an encyclopedic knowledge of all the drivers around him and a good idea of the percentages of each move he tries. Note his attempt last year on Max in the USGP.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WyYNpo2B1c

Asked about it later, Lewis said that there was no point in forcing the issue with Max and risking a DNF from Max's shenanigans.
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by j man »

shay550 wrote:The battles he had with Nico for three seasons taught him a lot. The level of intensity in that rivalry with only two drivers with a realistic shot at the title. They both had similar level of experience and age. It was the ultimate test, and Lewis learned that consistency mixed with controlled aggression was really the way forward.

Max is in the perfect incubator environment to be World Champ someday and I think from his point of view he has nothing to lose if he’s a little more aggressive now, and riles a few people. When he’s in a world championship winning car he will dial it back.
I think it goes back further than that, to 2011. Being beaten by Button, a driver he regularly outqualified and was generally faster than, in the championship and the heap of criticism he rightly attracted for the various incidents he got caught up in must have stung. In the latter part of that year you could tell it had really got to him, he looked dejected and broken. To his credit he took it all on board and worked on it, and came back the next year a different driver. Since the start of 2012 Lewis has barely been involved in any collisions at all, and whilst he does share some of the blame for a few of the ones that have occurred there are none that I can recall that could be considered predominantly his fault.

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Mort Canard »

j man wrote:
shay550 wrote:The battles he had with Nico for three seasons taught him a lot. The level of intensity in that rivalry with only two drivers with a realistic shot at the title. They both had similar level of experience and age. It was the ultimate test, and Lewis learned that consistency mixed with controlled aggression was really the way forward.

Max is in the perfect incubator environment to be World Champ someday and I think from his point of view he has nothing to lose if he’s a little more aggressive now, and riles a few people. When he’s in a world championship winning car he will dial it back.
I think it goes back further than that, to 2011. Being beaten by Button, a driver he regularly outqualified and was generally faster than, in the championship and the heap of criticism he rightly attracted for the various incidents he got caught up in must have stung. In the latter part of that year you could tell it had really got to him, he looked dejected and broken. To his credit he took it all on board and worked on it, and came back the next year a different driver. Since the start of 2012 Lewis has barely been involved in any collisions at all, and whilst he does share some of the blame for a few of the ones that have occurred there are none that I can recall that could be considered predominantly his fault.
Interesting take on Lewis. I have noticed over the years and have heard from a number of pundits that Lewis has an extraordinary situational awareness of who he is racing with and what he can expect from them.

It is also apparent that Lewis carries the lessons of 2007 where he was leading in the points after Japan with two races to go. He threw the car away in China and had gear selection problems in Brazil handing the WDC to Kimi by one point. Since then Lewis pretty much does not concede much of anything till the WDC is his alone.
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Covalent
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Covalent »

Mort Canard wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote: It's strange how things have turned around, Hamilton was often considered reckless and perhaps not as cerebral as his counterparts in the first part of his F1 career, nowadays he seems almost Prost like in comparison to the likes of Verstappen, Vettel and Leclerc.
It's called experience I think.
I've never seen a driver totally transform in the way Hamilton has. Alonso always managed a race like Alonso, Vettel like Vettel, Schumacher like Schumacher.

Hamilton has altered from a gungho win at all costs kind of guy to the ultimate percentage player.
:thumbup: :nod:

Lewis will still try a Bonsai move on occasion but he also has an encyclopedic knowledge of all the drivers around him and a good idea of the percentages of each move he tries. Note his attempt last year on Max in the USGP.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WyYNpo2B1c

Asked about it later, Lewis said that there was no point in forcing the issue with Max and risking a DNF from Max's shenanigans.
All good points but I have to question the Bonsai move :lol:

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

j man wrote:
shay550 wrote:The battles he had with Nico for three seasons taught him a lot. The level of intensity in that rivalry with only two drivers with a realistic shot at the title. They both had similar level of experience and age. It was the ultimate test, and Lewis learned that consistency mixed with controlled aggression was really the way forward.

Max is in the perfect incubator environment to be World Champ someday and I think from his point of view he has nothing to lose if he’s a little more aggressive now, and riles a few people. When he’s in a world championship winning car he will dial it back.
I think it goes back further than that, to 2011. Being beaten by Button, a driver he regularly outqualified and was generally faster than, in the championship and the heap of criticism he rightly attracted for the various incidents he got caught up in must have stung. In the latter part of that year you could tell it had really got to him, he looked dejected and broken. To his credit he took it all on board and worked on it, and came back the next year a different driver. Since the start of 2012 Lewis has barely been involved in any collisions at all, and whilst he does share some of the blame for a few of the ones that have occurred there are none that I can recall that could be considered predominantly his fault.
I don't think it was the actually beating by Button but the way that Button went about things, when Hamilton first came into F1 it was pure sprint racing on durable tyres, 2011 was the first year of Pirelli tyres and these were the worse of the cheese tyres that Pirelli ever produced, the tyres had to be managed.

I don't think that Hamilton ever adjusted to these tyres, I would say that only Webber was worse, and he just carried on as before and was destroying his tyres in the races, he simply seemed not to care as his main frustration was with yet again not having a WDC capable car and Vettel sailing off into the distance.

He had to change and he did perhaps evaluating how Button had gone about the previous season, only the extreme incompetence by the team stopped Button getting a slaughtering in the WDC and also prevented him from having a tilt at the title which however proved to be a blessing in disguise. :)
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1BDQHuR0fg

OK, this is interesting, I can see why Palmer thinks Verstappen was very unlucky with bottas, even to the point of saying Bottas was more to blame. But still, Verstappen attempting to do it where he did was plain stupid when he could have done it with DRS on the strait. However, it does look like Botats was caught by surprise, left the door open, suddenly stopped turning left as much to allow Verstappen some room, but then did continue turning, probably not realising how much of a lunge Verstappen had done. I don't really think i blame Bottas as it will have been a bit of a surprise, but i don't think i can blame Verstappen for contact any more in the incident itself. But the decision for him to do it where he did was his fault when he should have waited until later.

But anyway, i myself think i have been a bit too critical on Verstappen. Looking at what happened with hamilton at the start, from what palmer said, it looked like Hamilton slipped himself and caused Verstappen to go off track. So I don't blame Verstappen for this.

The contact with Bottas will have been avoidable if he attempted the move in a more sensible place. That was a bit silly doing it there really even though I think Bottas could have given him a bit more space.

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1BDQHuR0fg

OK, this is interesting, I can see why Palmer thinks Verstappen was very unlucky with bottas, even to the point of saying Bottas was more to blame. But still, Verstappen attempting to do it where he did was plain stupid when he could have done it with DRS on the strait. However, it does look like Botats was caught by surprise, left the door open, suddenly stopped turning left as much to allow Verstappen some room, but then did continue turning, probably not realising how much of a lunge Verstappen had done. I don't really think i blame Bottas as it will have been a bit of a surprise, but i don't think i can blame Verstappen for contact any more in the incident itself. But the decision for him to do it where he did was his fault when he should have waited until later.

But anyway, i myself think i have been a bit too critical on Verstappen. Looking at what happened with hamilton at the start, from what palmer said, it looked like Hamilton slipped himself and caused Verstappen to go off track. So I don't blame Verstappen for this.

The contact with Bottas will have been avoidable if he attempted the move in a more sensible place. That was a bit silly doing it there really even though I think Bottas could have given him a bit more space.
Why do you think he would definitely have been able to overtake Bottas on the straight? Bottas would have had DRS as well and nobody seemed to be getting slam dunk overtakes down the straight this race.

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1BDQHuR0fg

OK, this is interesting, I can see why Palmer thinks Verstappen was very unlucky with bottas, even to the point of saying Bottas was more to blame. But still, Verstappen attempting to do it where he did was plain stupid when he could have done it with DRS on the strait. However, it does look like Botats was caught by surprise, left the door open, suddenly stopped turning left as much to allow Verstappen some room, but then did continue turning, probably not realising how much of a lunge Verstappen had done. I don't really think i blame Bottas as it will have been a bit of a surprise, but i don't think i can blame Verstappen for contact any more in the incident itself. But the decision for him to do it where he did was his fault when he should have waited until later.

But anyway, i myself think i have been a bit too critical on Verstappen. Looking at what happened with hamilton at the start, from what palmer said, it looked like Hamilton slipped himself and caused Verstappen to go off track. So I don't blame Verstappen for this.

The contact with Bottas will have been avoidable if he attempted the move in a more sensible place. That was a bit silly doing it there really even though I think Bottas could have given him a bit more space.
Why do you think he would definitely have been able to overtake Bottas on the straight? Bottas would have had DRS as well and nobody seemed to be getting slam dunk overtakes down the straight this race.
Because Verstappen clearly managed to get alongside Bottas. He was significantly closer to Bottas than Bottas was to Norris. Or would have been if he didn't try to get by right on the corner. As Palmer mentioned, Bottas didn't have a perfect run into that corner which will have given verstappen an advantage
Even if Bottas had DRS, I think verstappen will have been close enough in the last corner to have a pretty easy job on the straight. The lack speed of the Red Bull isn't as big here.

I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure he could have got the job done later on. The Red Bull was surely the best car that weekend.

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by tootsie323 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1BDQHuR0fg

OK, this is interesting, I can see why Palmer thinks Verstappen was very unlucky with bottas, even to the point of saying Bottas was more to blame. But still, Verstappen attempting to do it where he did was plain stupid when he could have done it with DRS on the strait. However, it does look like Botats was caught by surprise, left the door open, suddenly stopped turning left as much to allow Verstappen some room, but then did continue turning, probably not realising how much of a lunge Verstappen had done. I don't really think i blame Bottas as it will have been a bit of a surprise, but i don't think i can blame Verstappen for contact any more in the incident itself. But the decision for him to do it where he did was his fault when he should have waited until later.

But anyway, i myself think i have been a bit too critical on Verstappen. Looking at what happened with hamilton at the start, from what palmer said, it looked like Hamilton slipped himself and caused Verstappen to go off track. So I don't blame Verstappen for this.

The contact with Bottas will have been avoidable if he attempted the move in a more sensible place. That was a bit silly doing it there really even though I think Bottas could have given him a bit more space.
Why do you think he would definitely have been able to overtake Bottas on the straight? Bottas would have had DRS as well and nobody seemed to be getting slam dunk overtakes down the straight this race.
Because Verstappen clearly managed to get alongside Bottas. He was significantly closer to Bottas than Bottas was to Norris. Or would have been if he didn't try to get by right on the corner. As Palmer mentioned, Bottas didn't have a perfect run into that corner which will have given verstappen an advantage
Even if Bottas had DRS, I think verstappen will have been close enough in the last corner to have a pretty easy job on the straight. The lack speed of the Red Bull isn't as big here.

I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure he could have got the job done later on. The Red Bull was surely the best car that weekend.
Maybe, but the longer one is held up the more time the leaders have to open up a gap. I don't think that Verstappen did anything wrong in the race, and simply had a couple of slices of bad luck.
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Mort Canard »

Covalent wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Covalent wrote: It's called experience I think.
I've never seen a driver totally transform in the way Hamilton has. Alonso always managed a race like Alonso, Vettel like Vettel, Schumacher like Schumacher.

Hamilton has altered from a gungho win at all costs kind of guy to the ultimate percentage player.
:thumbup: :nod:

Lewis will still try a Bonsai move on occasion but he also has an encyclopedic knowledge of all the drivers around him and a good idea of the percentages of each move he tries. Note his attempt last year on Max in the USGP.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WyYNpo2B1c

Asked about it later, Lewis said that there was no point in forcing the issue with Max and risking a DNF from Max's shenanigans.
All good points but I have to question the Bonsai move :lol:

Not sure of nuances of pronunciation, but I wonder if the Japanese ever get confused as to whether cultivate small trees or to mount a hopeless attack??? :?

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Banzai!!! Spell check is not always your friend. No good peas of shut!!! :lol:

Since I don't speak Japanese I sometimes get confused as to whether to cultivate small trees or mount a hopeless attack. :?
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1BDQHuR0fg

OK, this is interesting, I can see why Palmer thinks Verstappen was very unlucky with bottas, even to the point of saying Bottas was more to blame. But still, Verstappen attempting to do it where he did was plain stupid when he could have done it with DRS on the strait. However, it does look like Botats was caught by surprise, left the door open, suddenly stopped turning left as much to allow Verstappen some room, but then did continue turning, probably not realising how much of a lunge Verstappen had done. I don't really think i blame Bottas as it will have been a bit of a surprise, but i don't think i can blame Verstappen for contact any more in the incident itself. But the decision for him to do it where he did was his fault when he should have waited until later.

But anyway, i myself think i have been a bit too critical on Verstappen. Looking at what happened with hamilton at the start, from what palmer said, it looked like Hamilton slipped himself and caused Verstappen to go off track. So I don't blame Verstappen for this.

The contact with Bottas will have been avoidable if he attempted the move in a more sensible place. That was a bit silly doing it there really even though I think Bottas could have given him a bit more space.
Why do you think he would definitely have been able to overtake Bottas on the straight? Bottas would have had DRS as well and nobody seemed to be getting slam dunk overtakes down the straight this race.
Because Verstappen clearly managed to get alongside Bottas. He was significantly closer to Bottas than Bottas was to Norris. Or would have been if he didn't try to get by right on the corner. As Palmer mentioned, Bottas didn't have a perfect run into that corner which will have given verstappen an advantage
Even if Bottas had DRS, I think verstappen will have been close enough in the last corner to have a pretty easy job on the straight. The lack speed of the Red Bull isn't as big here.

I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure he could have got the job done later on. The Red Bull was surely the best car that weekend.
I don't seen any evidence that with both having DRS Verstappen could have caught Bottas on the straight. Don't forget if he isn't trying to overtake Bottas he has the turbulent air through the final few corners to deal with as well. I think on balance his chances of getting past Bottas on the straight was very small. Certainly not the slam dunk it would need to be to make not taking an opportunity worth while.

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

Covalent wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote: It's strange how things have turned around, Hamilton was often considered reckless and perhaps not as cerebral as his counterparts in the first part of his F1 career, nowadays he seems almost Prost like in comparison to the likes of Verstappen, Vettel and Leclerc.
It's called experience I think.
I've never seen a driver totally transform in the way Hamilton has. Alonso always managed a race like Alonso, Vettel like Vettel, Schumacher like Schumacher.

Hamilton has altered from a gungho win at all costs kind of guy to the ultimate percentage player.
:thumbup: :nod:

Lewis will still try a Bonsai move on occasion but he also has an encyclopedic knowledge of all the drivers around him and a good idea of the percentages of each move he tries. Note his attempt last year on Max in the USGP.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WyYNpo2B1c

Asked about it later, Lewis said that there was no point in forcing the issue with Max and risking a DNF from Max's shenanigans.
All good points but I have to question the Bonsai move :lol:

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Since when was this phrase coined? As far as I know a Bonsai is a miniature tree that many people enjoy pruning and caring for as a meditative therapy of sorts.
I think the phrase you're looking for might be Kamikaze Divebomb. :lol:
Last edited by Mod Blue on Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Routine Race Thread Lock
HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: LECLERC :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA

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