Renault disqualified from Japanese GP!

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pokerman
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote: RP submitted a very complex & technical 12 page report outlining the evidence they have to back up the accusation?

So some are saying RP were able to submit this dossier, containing enough technical evidence to convince the FIA to investigate, simply based on what they believed to be the lack of brake adjustments made by the Renault drivers from the little onboard footage available each GP weekend.

I can understand them having suspicions that somethings not right from watching the footage but being able to submit complex, technical info? Me thinks Renault has a mouse in the house.
Didn't McLaren receive a $100M fine for having technical documents of a rivals car?
Not just for having documents, but for illicitly collecting and holding information from Ferrari to confer a dishonest and fraudulent sporting advantage upon themselves.
Initially it started with Nigel Stepney being a whistle blower informing his friend Mike Coughlin that Ferrari had used an illegal floor in Australia which got brought to the attention of the FIA who banned the floor, curiously though Kimi and Ferrari got to keep the win whilst all kinds of bad things are envisaged for Renault.

It's kind of strange that McLaren themselves are seen as having ownership of the documents when it was Coughlin's wife, who doesn't work for McLaren, that was caught in possession of the documents.
Mclaren weren't penalised for having the documents. You're massively downplaying what went on.
Me and Frank Williams then who opinioned that it was merely a witch hunt given his experience of such things, the same year Benetton were found to have McLaren IP on their computers brought from an ex McLaren employee but nothing happened.
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by pokerman »

Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote: RP submitted a very complex & technical 12 page report outlining the evidence they have to back up the accusation?

So some are saying RP were able to submit this dossier, containing enough technical evidence to convince the FIA to investigate, simply based on what they believed to be the lack of brake adjustments made by the Renault drivers from the little onboard footage available each GP weekend.

I can understand them having suspicions that somethings not right from watching the footage but being able to submit complex, technical info? Me thinks Renault has a mouse in the house.
Didn't McLaren receive a $100M fine for having technical documents of a rivals car?
Not just for having documents, but for illicitly collecting and holding information from Ferrari to confer a dishonest and fraudulent sporting advantage upon themselves.
Initially it started with Nigel Stepney being a whistle blower informing his friend Mike Coughlin that Ferrari had used an illegal floor in Australia which got brought to the attention of the FIA who banned the floor, curiously though Kimi and Ferrari got to keep the win whilst all kinds of bad things are envisaged for Renault.
That's because the Ferrari floor passed all the FIA testing. The FIA then changed their testing so Ferrari had to change their floor.
It passed because it was using an illegal device designed just so it could pass the test.
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:Initially it started with Nigel Stepney being a whistle blower informing his friend Mike Coughlin that Ferrari had used an illegal floor in Australia which got brought to the attention of the FIA who banned the floor, curiously though Kimi and Ferrari got to keep the win whilst all kinds of bad things are envisaged for Renault.
That's because the Ferrari floor passed all the FIA testing. The FIA then changed their testing so Ferrari had to change their floor.
Indeed. There's basically two classes of 'cheating' in F1:

a) The part is technically legal, but goes against what the FIA intends to be legal. They ban it, but it was legal when it was raced so no penalties.
b) The part was never legal and was being hidden from the FIA by some means. This is where penalties come in.

For example, the Haas floor that got them disqualified from the Italian GP. They weren't retroactively disqualified from any of the races where they had used it before the FIA ruled it illegal, but once they raced it after it was ruled illegal they were disqualified from that race.

Renault's brake system -- if it functions as alleged -- could fall into either category. If there's a computer actively changing brake bias throughout the race, I think that would put it into the 'b' category of being already illegal and hidden from the FIA. Driver aids are banned be default under the nebulous 'alone and unaided' rule.
So there is precedence for no retro banning of Renault.
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote: Didn't McLaren receive a $100M fine for having technical documents of a rivals car?
Not just for having documents, but for illicitly collecting and holding information from Ferrari to confer a dishonest and fraudulent sporting advantage upon themselves.
Initially it started with Nigel Stepney being a whistle blower informing his friend Mike Coughlin that Ferrari had used an illegal floor in Australia which got brought to the attention of the FIA who banned the floor, curiously though Kimi and Ferrari got to keep the win whilst all kinds of bad things are envisaged for Renault.
That's because the Ferrari floor passed all the FIA testing. The FIA then changed their testing so Ferrari had to change their floor.
It passed because it was using an illegal device designed just so it could pass the test.
No, it wasn't illegal. That's the point. The FIA intended it to be illegal. But that isn't the same thing.

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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote: Not just for having documents, but for illicitly collecting and holding information from Ferrari to confer a dishonest and fraudulent sporting advantage upon themselves.
Initially it started with Nigel Stepney being a whistle blower informing his friend Mike Coughlin that Ferrari had used an illegal floor in Australia which got brought to the attention of the FIA who banned the floor, curiously though Kimi and Ferrari got to keep the win whilst all kinds of bad things are envisaged for Renault.
That's because the Ferrari floor passed all the FIA testing. The FIA then changed their testing so Ferrari had to change their floor.
It passed because it was using an illegal device designed just so it could pass the test.
No, it wasn't illegal. That's the point. The FIA intended it to be illegal. But that isn't the same thing.
Well admittedly I don't have the exact wording of the regs to hand but I've seen recently how wordings can have different meanings when it relates to track limits and jump starts.
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by Covalent »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote: Didn't McLaren receive a $100M fine for having technical documents of a rivals car?
Not just for having documents, but for illicitly collecting and holding information from Ferrari to confer a dishonest and fraudulent sporting advantage upon themselves.
Initially it started with Nigel Stepney being a whistle blower informing his friend Mike Coughlin that Ferrari had used an illegal floor in Australia which got brought to the attention of the FIA who banned the floor, curiously though Kimi and Ferrari got to keep the win whilst all kinds of bad things are envisaged for Renault.

It's kind of strange that McLaren themselves are seen as having ownership of the documents when it was Coughlin's wife, who doesn't work for McLaren, that was caught in possession of the documents.
Mclaren weren't penalised for having the documents. You're massively downplaying what went on.
Me and Frank Williams then who opinioned that it was merely a witch hunt given his experience of such things, the same year Benetton were found to have McLaren IP on their computers brought from an ex McLaren employee but nothing happened.
Yeah I'm pretty sure that's just a lie.

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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by pokerman »

pokerman wrote:Me and Frank Williams then who opinioned that it was merely a witch hunt given his experience of such things, the same year Benetton were found to have McLaren IP on their computers brought from an ex McLaren employee but nothing happened.
As luck would have it I came across some posts that were made today.
On a different note I agree with those who claim that the FIA's decision will be affected by Renault's future in F1. Of all the manufacturers involved their future is by far the shakiest especially since McLaren has now moved on for 2021 to Mercedes and with the infighting at the top of the corporate structure and with the future of the Nissan alliance still not fully secure. None of us know the seriousness of the allegations and whether it would ordinarily be punished by having more than the points scored at Suzuka stripped away but the likelihood of Renault pulling out rises the harsher the penalty. Losing a manufacturer would affect the value of the sport massively so all stakeholders including the low ranking teams would eventually pay the price for a Renault withdrawal.

While we are no longer in Max's world of politically targeted penalties I suspect the FIA will be under a lot of pressure to look away from or simply ignore some of the worst transgressions if any took place.
Dangerous precedent to set though. If they look away from something serious now, what excuse would they have to punish another team in the future?
Reasons can always be found.

After all three different teams were found to have had intellectual property from another team back in 2007, only two were investigated by the FIA and only one found guilty of using that material and punished. IIRC the two engineers at the heart of the Toyota incident were found guilty in a civil court but that wasn't proof enough for the FIA to even take a look. Renault were found to have had McLaren files which were opened but the FIA claimed that the engineers involved must have averted their eyes at that point. McLaren on the other hand...
As you say, reasons can always be found. When was the last time that anything with political implications in Formula One was decided on principle?

The two Toyota engineers who stole the Ferrari data were found guilty in criminal court and given suspended custodial sentences. Mosley claimed that the reason the FIA did not lift a finger against Toyota was that Ferrari had not filed a formal complaint with the FIA.

I'll say this for old Mosley - he had a heck of a sense of humour. Instead of polluting motor sport for 50 years, he should have made his career as a stand-up comic.
Regarding what happened with McLaren a lot was said about the poor relationship Mosley had with Ron Dennis.
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by pokerman »

Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote: Not just for having documents, but for illicitly collecting and holding information from Ferrari to confer a dishonest and fraudulent sporting advantage upon themselves.
Initially it started with Nigel Stepney being a whistle blower informing his friend Mike Coughlin that Ferrari had used an illegal floor in Australia which got brought to the attention of the FIA who banned the floor, curiously though Kimi and Ferrari got to keep the win whilst all kinds of bad things are envisaged for Renault.

It's kind of strange that McLaren themselves are seen as having ownership of the documents when it was Coughlin's wife, who doesn't work for McLaren, that was caught in possession of the documents.
Mclaren weren't penalised for having the documents. You're massively downplaying what went on.
Me and Frank Williams then who opinioned that it was merely a witch hunt given his experience of such things, the same year Benetton were found to have McLaren IP on their computers brought from an ex McLaren employee but nothing happened.
Yeah I'm pretty sure that's just a lie.
Because Mosley was so even handed with such things?
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by Covalent »

pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote: Initially it started with Nigel Stepney being a whistle blower informing his friend Mike Coughlin that Ferrari had used an illegal floor in Australia which got brought to the attention of the FIA who banned the floor, curiously though Kimi and Ferrari got to keep the win whilst all kinds of bad things are envisaged for Renault.

It's kind of strange that McLaren themselves are seen as having ownership of the documents when it was Coughlin's wife, who doesn't work for McLaren, that was caught in possession of the documents.
Mclaren weren't penalised for having the documents. You're massively downplaying what went on.
Me and Frank Williams then who opinioned that it was merely a witch hunt given his experience of such things, the same year Benetton were found to have McLaren IP on their computers brought from an ex McLaren employee but nothing happened.
Yeah I'm pretty sure that's just a lie.
Because Mosley was so even handed with such things?
No. Not because of that.

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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Mclaren were caught cheating in a big way, then got caught lying about their chearing. They got a penalty in someways could be considered lenient. I don't know how that is open for debate.

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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:Mclaren were caught cheating in a big way, then got caught lying about their chearing. They got a penalty in someways could be considered lenient. I don't know how that is open for debate.
Did any Ferrari IP ever appear on the McLaren car, the 2 cars were entirely different in concept, you want to accept this was run at the highest level at McLaren yet Coughlan's wife was caught with the documents which were then presented to Honda by Coughlan and Stepney who were reportedly seeking employment there but Honda said they were not interested.

Clearly rogue employees doing things behind their employees back I would say somewhat similar to the rogue employees at Toyota but both cases treated entirely differently.

Also out of interest was any of the Ferrari IP found on the McLaren computers like we saw with Benetton?
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Mclaren were caught cheating in a big way, then got caught lying about their chearing. They got a penalty in someways could be considered lenient. I don't know how that is open for debate.
Did any Ferrari IP ever appear on the McLaren car, the 2 cars were entirely different in concept, you want to accept this was run at the highest level at McLaren yet Coughlan's wife was caught with the documents which were then presented to Honda by Coughlan and Stepney who were reportedly seeking employment there but Honda said they were not interested.

Clearly rogue employees doing things behind their employees back I would say somewhat similar to the rogue employees at Toyota but both cases treated entirely differently.

Also out of interest was any of the Ferrari IP found on the McLaren computers like we saw with Benetton?
I believe so.

There was certainly proof that Mclaren were using Ferrari IP in 2007 and according to Mosely in 2008.

Of course it went to the top. Even the drivers knew. The Toyota/Renault case was very, very different.

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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by Tufty »

pokerman wrote:Also out of interest was any of the Ferrari IP found on the McLaren computers like we saw with Benetton?
2 things:

1: Benetton was renamed 6 years prior, so I'm not sure why you're insisting on using that name.

2: The difference, as far as I recall, was that the FIA found no evidence that Renault used the IP. Not that there was anywhere near the coverage of Renault compared to McLaren.
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by JN23 »

Both Renault's have been disqualified from the Japanese GP. Interesting to see what happens with other races.


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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by JN23 »

Seems Renault were in breach of sporting regulations but not technical regulations so that may mean they are only in trouble for Japan.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... 3CLVB.html

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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by da4an1qu1 »

Very disappointing. And not a good look for Renault given their history in the sport, and the wider Nissan-Renault group dramas.

I do wonder what Ricciardo is thinking in all this mess. I didn't disagree greatly with the move from Red Bull... but before the summer break, if he was still there, there was a chance Verstappen and Ricciardo could have retained that momentum that was propelling them ahead of Ferrari. Verstappen has been excellent... he's been isolated by inexperienced second drivers (whatever their merits).

The technical details aren't being presented... in time I'm sure the experts from the various F1 publications will be able to reveal a bit more... it seems to hinge on the steering wheel... so it might be some input system that gives feedback to the driver so that adjustment is a subtle rather than obvious input in the cockpit... I speculate.

But the main thing is, I'd be surprised if Renault were the "primary innovators" in this area. The next stage in the drama is whether Renault appeal. Given it is a breach of sporting not technical regulations, I'd be surprised if they don't. We could see a number of teams accused consequentially. And of course, there are two obvious candidates if this hinges on what Ricciardo knows.

I think their Japanese GP points are irretrievable. But I think the FIA might have a bit of trouble on their hands trying to defend the integrity of the sport.

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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by UnlikeUday »

So the whistleblower was an engineer that worked on Hulkenberg's car but switched teams in the summer break. I wonder if this information was just leaked now because if Renault is using this system atleast as early as Hungary, imagine how many points can they lose?
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by Blake »

pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
pokerman wrote: Didn't McLaren receive a $100M fine for having technical documents of a rivals car?
Not just for having documents, but for illicitly collecting and holding information from Ferrari to confer a dishonest and fraudulent sporting advantage upon themselves.
Initially it started with Nigel Stepney being a whistle blower informing his friend Mike Coughlin that Ferrari had used an illegal floor in Australia which got brought to the attention of the FIA who banned the floor, curiously though Kimi and Ferrari got to keep the win whilst all kinds of bad things are envisaged for Renault.

It's kind of strange that McLaren themselves are seen as having ownership of the documents when it was Coughlin's wife, who doesn't work for McLaren, that was caught in possession of the documents.
:lol:
So the rewriting of history returns yet again. First, as has been pointed out, the floor was not illegal, it passed the tests as they were at the time. Later the testing was changed at which time, Ferrari had to make changes. It may have been against the spirit of the rule, but illegal it was not.

Secondly, it was not just a case of Couglin and his wife having the data on Ferrari's current car, strategies and personnel... information was taken into McLaren and shared. It should be pointed out that it was far more than just the Data that got McLaren in trouble, it was a continuing stream of data being passed on to McLaren such as their strategies about each race, such as pit schedules, etc. Still, even with all of that, Mercedes did not get fined or punished, initially. It was when the emails were revealed that showed the interaction between members of the McLaren team and Stepney regarding such things as weight bias, and such, that finally got the FIA to act. Also, it should be noted that the FIA did not trust that McLaren did not have any of the Ferrari concepts on their car or in the system, which is why they required a further inspection of the McLaren 2008 cars before the season started.

This idea of whitewashing McLaren's role in this scandal is a bit asinine in my opinion, yet it constantly happens in here. As another poster stated a few posts above, it could be said that McLaren got off perhaps too lightly. after all, how can two drivers still compete for a WDC in cars that are banned from the WCC? Why was McLaren even allowed to race for the rest of the season, or even perhaps in 2008?

It is what it is, no amount of spin changes that facts, nor lessens McLaren's involvement.

I have been relatively quiet in here lately (it generally just isn't worth it), but this is one subject that I cannot and will not let go by without comment... besides, I have had so much practice, as it has come up nearly every year since 2007!!!
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

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UnlikeUday wrote:So the whistleblower was an engineer that worked on Hulkenberg's car but switched teams in the summer break. I wonder if this information was just leaked now because if Renault is using this system atleast as early as Hungary, imagine how many points can they lose?
lol that would have been a final nail on Renault's coffin. They have been very average for some years now and do not have any customer from 2021. What is the point in fighting for P5 in F1 with little to no chance for podium :-|

STR only 6points away from Renault:
https://in.news.yahoo.com/renault-found ... 22422.html

Having said that may be they can beat Mclaren next year and finally have decent year. I doubt they can close to top3 teams but there is no excuse to get beat by Mclaren and other midfield teams.
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by JN23 »

UnlikeUday wrote:So the whistleblower was an engineer that worked on Hulkenberg's car but switched teams in the summer break. I wonder if this information was just leaked now because if Renault is using this system atleast as early as Hungary, imagine how many points can they lose?
I've seen it suggested it won't go back further than Japan because it can't be proven Renault were using the same system.

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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by Exediron »

Mercedes-Benz wrote:Having said that may be they can beat Mclaren next year and finally have decent year. I doubt they can close to top3 teams but there is no excuse to get beat by Mclaren and other midfield teams.
In every way except for not being an engine supplier McLaren is less of a midfield team than Renault. They have a bigger budget as of last time I saw an estimate.
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Exediron wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:Having said that may be they can beat Mclaren next year and finally have decent year. I doubt they can close to top3 teams but there is no excuse to get beat by Mclaren and other midfield teams.
In every way except for not being an engine supplier McLaren is less of a midfield team than Renault. They have a bigger budget as of last time I saw an estimate.
Renault have top(ish) tier driver. Other than that I agree. We need both of them pushing forward tbh.

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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by Fiki »

JN23 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:So the whistleblower was an engineer that worked on Hulkenberg's car but switched teams in the summer break. I wonder if this information was just leaked now because if Renault is using this system atleast as early as Hungary, imagine how many points can they lose?
I've seen it suggested it won't go back further than Japan because it can't be proven Renault were using the same system.
Surely this raises the question of whether scrutineering is working the way it should? I know that making sure the cars comply with the technical regulations is a responsibility for the teams themselves, but the current problem isn't new. The Tuned Mass Damper was outlawed mid-season, but results were allowed to stand.

Also, I understand that teams tended to ask for Charlie Whiting's view on a new system before proceeding with it, rather than develop and attemt to race it with the risk of it being thrown out when revealed. I wonder whether Renault took that path this time, and whether they consulted Whiting last year, or his successor earlier this year.
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Re: Renault disqualified from Japanese GP!

Post by A_Game_A_Day »

A pre-configured lap/distance brake bias adjustment system sounds relatively crude to me given distance depends on factors such as line around track and pit stops.

I was wondering if the system is actually linked to speed/g-loads so that the bias could automatically adjust differently for high-speed/big stops compared to low-speed/low-load twisty corners?

That to me sounds like being a "driver aid" (albeit as noted above, ambiguously, as it would be the driver's speed determining the braking...), but avoiding the regulation-breach severity of a pre-configured system.

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Re: Renault disqualified from Japanese GP!

Post by UnlikeUday »

It is believed Racing Point knew about this since June!!!!!!!!!!! Wonder why they waited for so long?
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by pokerman »

Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote: Not just for having documents, but for illicitly collecting and holding information from Ferrari to confer a dishonest and fraudulent sporting advantage upon themselves.
Initially it started with Nigel Stepney being a whistle blower informing his friend Mike Coughlin that Ferrari had used an illegal floor in Australia which got brought to the attention of the FIA who banned the floor, curiously though Kimi and Ferrari got to keep the win whilst all kinds of bad things are envisaged for Renault.

It's kind of strange that McLaren themselves are seen as having ownership of the documents when it was Coughlin's wife, who doesn't work for McLaren, that was caught in possession of the documents.
:lol:
So the rewriting of history returns yet again. First, as has been pointed out, the floor was not illegal, it passed the tests as they were at the time. Later the testing was changed at which time, Ferrari had to make changes. It may have been against the spirit of the rule, but illegal it was not.

Secondly, it was not just a case of Couglin and his wife having the data on Ferrari's current car, strategies and personnel... information was taken into McLaren and shared. It should be pointed out that it was far more than just the Data that got McLaren in trouble, it was a continuing stream of data being passed on to McLaren such as their strategies about each race, such as pit schedules, etc. Still, even with all of that, Mercedes did not get fined or punished, initially. It was when the emails were revealed that showed the interaction between members of the McLaren team and Stepney regarding such things as weight bias, and such, that finally got the FIA to act. Also, it should be noted that the FIA did not trust that McLaren did not have any of the Ferrari concepts on their car or in the system, which is why they required a further inspection of the McLaren 2008 cars before the season started.

This idea of whitewashing McLaren's role in this scandal is a bit asinine in my opinion, yet it constantly happens in here. As another poster stated a few posts above, it could be said that McLaren got off perhaps too lightly. after all, how can two drivers still compete for a WDC in cars that are banned from the WCC? Why was McLaren even allowed to race for the rest of the season, or even perhaps in 2008?

It is what it is, no amount of spin changes that facts, nor lessens McLaren's involvement.

I have been relatively quiet in here lately (it generally just isn't worth it), but this is one subject that I cannot and will not let go by without comment... besides, I have had so much practice, as it has come up nearly every year since 2007!!!
;)
I was also making comparison with how McLaren got penalised but other teams didn't and let's not forget the size of the penalty, apparently the only reason why Toyota didn't get penalised was because Ferrari didn't lodge a protest which is quite strange, you have either transgressed or you haven't.

With the floor Ferrari were using a spring loaded device to pass the load test but would then allow the floor to flex pass the legal limit when on the track, on my part it's not knowing how things are written and can you be thrown out of the results in retrospect, with Renault we've just seen them thrown out of the results in retrospect, the car passed scrutineering after all.
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Battle Far
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by Battle Far »

Blake wrote:So the rewriting of history returns yet again. First, as has been pointed out, the floor was not illegal, it passed the tests as they were at the time. Later the testing was changed at which time, Ferrari had to make changes. It may have been against the spirit of the rule, but illegal it was not.
Sorry Blake, I can't let this pass, even if you view life through Prancing Horse tinted spectacles

Neither Marion Jones nor Tim Montgomery were able to use the defence that you have attempted to use above to justify deliberate cheating by Ferrari. They ingested illegal performance enhancing drugs deliberately engineered by Victor Conte's BALCO organisation to pass the then mandated anti-doping tests. Subsequently, samples previously validated as not indicating PHD usage were re-tested using updated techniques which then proved positive for PHG use.

Ferrari deliberately engineered the floor of their car to pass the then mandated flexi-floor static test in the full and complete knowledge that, on track, their floor would deflect beyond the maximum allowed amount conferring an illegal performance advantage. F1 regulations at the time mandated a maximum deflection and tested that deflection using a static load test. Like many other F1 teams, Ferrari were guilty of cheating, the only good thing to come out of that whole saga is that they were caught, otherwise they'd still be cheating today!

In athletics/cycling/swimming using PHD's is illegal, passing a contemporary test for PHG's does not indicate innocence. Samples are routinely re-tested, sometimes a decade after they were originally taken. Athlete's who are proven to use PHGs retrospectively are still subject to disciplinary action.

F1 has a similar regulatory structure, it's a shame that the sport's administration failed to implement that structure in the same way that other sports do.

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UnlikeUday
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Re: Renault disqualified from Japanese GP!

Post by UnlikeUday »

Renault won't be appealing against the DSQ verdict.
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12473 ... lification
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kleefton
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by kleefton »

JN23 wrote:Seems Renault were in breach of sporting regulations but not technical regulations so that may mean they are only in trouble for Japan.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... 3CLVB.html

I am confused. The fia said it wasn’t a pre set system hence legal. There doesn’t seem to be anything confirming that the car is able to adjust the brake bias without driver input. Is this another case of the f1 regulators handing a slap on the wrist whereas a more severe penalty would have been more appropriate?

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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by j man »

Fiki wrote:
JN23 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:So the whistleblower was an engineer that worked on Hulkenberg's car but switched teams in the summer break. I wonder if this information was just leaked now because if Renault is using this system atleast as early as Hungary, imagine how many points can they lose?
I've seen it suggested it won't go back further than Japan because it can't be proven Renault were using the same system.
Surely this raises the question of whether scrutineering is working the way it should? I know that making sure the cars comply with the technical regulations is a responsibility for the teams themselves, but the current problem isn't new. The Tuned Mass Damper was outlawed mid-season, but results were allowed to stand.

Also, I understand that teams tended to ask for Charlie Whiting's view on a new system before proceeding with it, rather than develop and attemt to race it with the risk of it being thrown out when revealed. I wonder whether Renault took that path this time, and whether they consulted Whiting last year, or his successor earlier this year.
The problem is that there are so many rules now governing every aspect of the car that it is impossible for each car to be fully scrutineered on every race weekend, it would take an unfathomable amount of time. It's reached the point now where the FIA are relying primarily on other teams to highlight instances of cheating, rather than catching them themselves.

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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by Blake »

Battle Far wrote:
Blake wrote:So the rewriting of history returns yet again. First, as has been pointed out, the floor was not illegal, it passed the tests as they were at the time. Later the testing was changed at which time, Ferrari had to make changes. It may have been against the spirit of the rule, but illegal it was not.
Sorry Blake, I can't let this pass, even if you view life through Prancing Horse tinted spectacles

Neither Marion Jones nor Tim Montgomery were able to use the defence that you have attempted to use above to justify deliberate cheating by Ferrari. They ingested illegal performance enhancing drugs deliberately engineered by Victor Conte's BALCO organisation to pass the then mandated anti-doping tests. Subsequently, samples previously validated as not indicating PHD usage were re-tested using updated techniques which then proved positive for PHG use.

Ferrari deliberately engineered the floor of their car to pass the then mandated flexi-floor static test in the full and complete knowledge that, on track, their floor would deflect beyond the maximum allowed amount conferring an illegal performance advantage. F1 regulations at the time mandated a maximum deflection and tested that deflection using a static load test. Like many other F1 teams, Ferrari were guilty of cheating, the only good thing to come out of that whole saga is that they were caught, otherwise they'd still be cheating today!

In athletics/cycling/swimming using PHD's is illegal, passing a contemporary test for PHG's does not indicate innocence. Samples are routinely re-tested, sometimes a decade after they were originally taken. Athlete's who are proven to use PHGs retrospectively are still subject to disciplinary action.

F1 has a similar regulatory structure, it's a shame that the sport's administration failed to implement that structure in the same way that other sports do.
You throw out the "tinted glasses line" and then make THAT post??? The best you can do is a PHD use comparison???

For what it is worth, there are many cases in racing of teams "innovating", even stretching the rules, even in F1. I certainly not would pretend that Ferrari did not or would not been the rules, but the simple Fact is that at the time Ferrari's floor did pass the flex test. They got called on it after McLaren questioned it and made the required changes. As for your cheap "still be cheating today" comment, how do you know that they aren't, it that Merc isn't, or RB, et al. None of the teams are above "cheating", and depending on one's viewpoint, it is often called innovation...Or cheating.
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UnlikeUday
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Re: Renault disqualified from Japanese GP!

Post by UnlikeUday »

Renault were using this (Driver aid) or at least tried it before making it a permanent fixture in their car as early as the pre-season test. The screengrab is from Ricciardo's first outing in Renault & this was seen through his go-pro camera.

Image
Source - Imgur
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Mercedes-Benz
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

Exediron wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:Having said that may be they can beat Mclaren next year and finally have decent year. I doubt they can close to top3 teams but there is no excuse to get beat by Mclaren and other midfield teams.
In every way except for not being an engine supplier McLaren is less of a midfield team than Renault. They have a bigger budget as of last time I saw an estimate.
I would say Mclaren and Renault are more of top end of midfield and are on par with each other as far as resources are concerned. But I do not think Mclaren is out of reach for Renault next year. Ricciardo and Hulk have done average job compared to Mclaren drivers. I wonder what Renault management thinks about their F1 project as they are competing with B teams if Mclaren begins to pull away from them :?
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by Fiki »

j man wrote:
Fiki wrote:
JN23 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:So the whistleblower was an engineer that worked on Hulkenberg's car but switched teams in the summer break. I wonder if this information was just leaked now because if Renault is using this system atleast as early as Hungary, imagine how many points can they lose?
I've seen it suggested it won't go back further than Japan because it can't be proven Renault were using the same system.
Surely this raises the question of whether scrutineering is working the way it should? I know that making sure the cars comply with the technical regulations is a responsibility for the teams themselves, but the current problem isn't new. The Tuned Mass Damper was outlawed mid-season, but results were allowed to stand.

Also, I understand that teams tended to ask for Charlie Whiting's view on a new system before proceeding with it, rather than develop and attemt to race it with the risk of it being thrown out when revealed. I wonder whether Renault took that path this time, and whether they consulted Whiting last year, or his successor earlier this year.
The problem is that there are so many rules now governing every aspect of the car that it is impossible for each car to be fully scrutineered on every race weekend, it would take an unfathomable amount of time. It's reached the point now where the FIA are relying primarily on other teams to highlight instances of cheating, rather than catching them themselves.
Which is why I wonder whether the FIA were consulted about the system by Renault. UnlikeUday's post is interesting in this respect, as I'm inclined to think they did. It's just a thought though.

Thinking about the reasoning behind the ban, perhaps Renault's development of their initial system pushed them over the legality line?
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Yellowbin74
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Re: Renault disqualified from Japanese GP!

Post by Yellowbin74 »

UnlikeUday wrote:It is believed Racing Point knew about this since June!!!!!!!!!!! Wonder why they waited for so long?
My thinking would be so that there is a good chance of having to give up more points?

Renault had a bit of a shaky start to 2019, there was less to be gained from doing so maybe?
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Re: Renault disqualified from Japanese GP!

Post by Jezza13 »

Yellowbin74 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:It is believed Racing Point knew about this since June!!!!!!!!!!! Wonder why they waited for so long?
My thinking would be so that there is a good chance of having to give up more points?

Renault had a bit of a shaky start to 2019, there was less to be gained from doing so maybe?
I understand the above is supposition but if RP did indeed sit on this info for 4 mths for that reason then if I were the boss of McLaren, Toro Rosso or Alfa i'd be straight on the phone to them & giving it to them with both barrels for 2 reasons.

1. I'd argue it's a highly unethical act to knowingly withhold such evidence of potentially illegal activities by a rival team for such a period of time.

2. That the deliberate actions of RP have potentially cost those teams & their drivers points &, by extension, income.

In fact, if indeed RP had the info for 4 mths, if I were Michael Massi i'd be demanding answers as to why it wasn't submitted as soon as they became aware of what was going on & consider, moving forward, fining teams that deliberately withhold this type of evidence in such a way.
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?

Post by Fiki »

Fiki wrote:
j man wrote:
Fiki wrote:
JN23 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:So the whistleblower was an engineer that worked on Hulkenberg's car but switched teams in the summer break. I wonder if this information was just leaked now because if Renault is using this system atleast as early as Hungary, imagine how many points can they lose?
I've seen it suggested it won't go back further than Japan because it can't be proven Renault were using the same system.
Surely this raises the question of whether scrutineering is working the way it should? I know that making sure the cars comply with the technical regulations is a responsibility for the teams themselves, but the current problem isn't new. The Tuned Mass Damper was outlawed mid-season, but results were allowed to stand.

Also, I understand that teams tended to ask for Charlie Whiting's view on a new system before proceeding with it, rather than develop and attemt to race it with the risk of it being thrown out when revealed. I wonder whether Renault took that path this time, and whether they consulted Whiting last year, or his successor earlier this year.
The problem is that there are so many rules now governing every aspect of the car that it is impossible for each car to be fully scrutineered on every race weekend, it would take an unfathomable amount of time. It's reached the point now where the FIA are relying primarily on other teams to highlight instances of cheating, rather than catching them themselves.
Which is why I wonder whether the FIA were consulted about the system by Renault. UnlikeUday's post is interesting in this respect, as I'm inclined to think they did. It's just a thought though.

Thinking about the reasoning behind the ban, perhaps Renault's development of their initial system pushed them over the legality line?
I just read that Abiteboul has said he didn't seek FIA advice or approval, believing the system was legal. :?

Source: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14678 ... stem-in-15
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Re: Renault disqualified from Japanese GP!

Post by Asphalt_World »

I read with interest about this being illegal because the drivers have to drive themselves and not make use of a driver aid such as am auto brake balance adjuster.

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