Renault disqualified from Japanese GP!

UnlikeUday · Post by **UnlikeUday** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:07 pm

In Japan, Racing Point have filed a 12-page dossier with the FIA which states Renault has been using an illegal brake bias system. Also known as 'pre-set lap distance-dependent brake bias adjustment system'. The FIA accepted the dossier as a part of an official complaint & the decision regarding this can be very severe if Renault found guilty. A massive fine or exclusion from the world championship could be the penalty. This will also be a massive hit on Renault's brand image as a whole.

Ralf Schumacher does believe this braking system would be of a huge advantage in the race.
https://www.grandprix.com/news/renault- ... ntage.html

Ralf Schumacher said this:
“This cannot happen without the knowledge of a driver. If as a racer you don't have to adjust your brake balance yourself once, then the penny must fall...

“A driver is responsible for adjusting the brake balance. If this happens automatically, it gives a considerable advantage in turns. You can brake later and through the bend at a higher speed. An automatic system can always do that better than a person."

“The most obvious option is a whistleblower," he said. "There are more than 1000 people working for both teams: One of them will probably change jobs one day. Then it is possible that such information will come to light."

Sutton · Post by **Sutton** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:20 pm

What is it with Endstone and cheating?

(allegedley)

mikeyg123 · Post by **mikeyg123** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:22 pm

If found guilty this could have real repercussions. This would be a case of deliberate cheating. The only sensible course of action would be to DSQ Renault from all races they have used the system and give them a multi race ban going forward.

However if a penalty like that was attempted Renault would probably just threaten to pull the plug.

JN23 · Post by **JN23** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:19 pm

When is a deicison on this expected?

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:28 pm

What I'd like to know is how Racing Point got access to Renault's braking system?

mikeyg123 · Post by **mikeyg123** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:33 pm

pokerman wrote:What I'd like to know is how Racing Point got access to Renault's braking system?

Could be as simple as analysing the on-boards and noticing the Renault drivers never change their break bias.

UnlikeUday · Post by **UnlikeUday** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:53 pm

JN23 wrote:When is a deicison on this expected?

I had heard it would be today but looks more likely in the next few days!

Alienturnedhuman · Post by **Alienturnedhuman** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:37 pm

Back in the day you used to cheat to try and get a win or a WDC. But to risk all this just for treading water in the midfield...

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:44 pm

Alienturnedhuman wrote:Back in the day you used to cheat to try and get a win or a WDC. But to risk all this just for treading water in the midfield...

Maybe it just shows the amount of pressure the team is under?

UnlikeUday · Post by **UnlikeUday** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:12 pm

pokerman wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:Back in the day you used to cheat to try and get a win or a WDC. But to risk all this just for treading water in the midfield...
Maybe it just shows the amount of pressure the team is under?

I hope this was not just done to beat McLaren in the WCC?

F1 MERCENARY · Post by **F1 MERCENARY** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:22 pm

The reality is that Cyril Abiteboul sets the tone and culture and he's someone who has always rubbed me the wrong way.
He's someone who seems inept and incapable of running of anything much less an F1 operation.

mikeyg123 · Post by **mikeyg123** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:39 pm

Alienturnedhuman wrote:Back in the day you used to cheat to try and get a win or a WDC. But to risk all this just for treading water in the midfield...

Nah, It's usually the midfield that cheats. Remember BAR's secret fuel tank or Tyrrell's lead shot ballast.

Blinky McSquinty · Post by **Blinky McSquinty** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:57 pm

I would love to see the protest, because IMO the Renault system is not illegal, but a novel way to improve the driver/car performance. I went over the regulations, and while such things as anti-lock are banned, this system is not actually anti-lock but just fine-tunes the braking balance dependent on which corner it is at.

For myself,I will label this as "innovation" and wait for proof of cheating.

jono794 · Post by **jono794** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:14 am

Blinky McSquinty wrote:I would love to see the protest, because IMO the Renault system is not illegal, but a novel way to improve the driver/car performance. I went over the regulations, and while such things as anti-lock are banned, this system is not actually anti-lock but just fine-tunes the braking balance dependent on which corner it is at.

For myself,I will label this as "innovation" and wait for proof of cheating.

If the brake bias adjustment does something different depending on the corner, then it is an automated adjustment which I don't believe is legal. However, they do something similar with ERS deployment which seems to be totally fine so I have no idea.

UnlikeUday · Post by **UnlikeUday** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:59 am

Blinky McSquinty wrote:I would love to see the protest, because IMO the Renault system is not illegal, but a novel way to improve the driver/car performance. I went over the regulations, and while such things as anti-lock are banned, this system is not actually anti-lock but just fine-tunes the braking balance dependent on which corner it is at.

For myself,I will label this as "innovation" and wait for proof of cheating.

Mate, I found this in another article:

'Such a brake system — essentially a driver aid — would be in breach of F1’s technical regulations. Aside from the rear break-by-wire, F1 regulations prevent any “powered device” add-ons to the brake systems.

Article 27.1 of the sport’s Sporting Regulations states drivers must “drive the car alone and unaided”.'

jono794 · Post by **jono794** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:29 am

Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...

Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"

Flash2k11 · Post by **Flash2k11** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:33 am

jono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...

Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"

If it were any driver, it'd more likely be Hulkenberg having a chat with his old mates down at Racing Point after Renault have kindly told him to find new employment at the end of the year.

Randine · Post by **Randine** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:06 am

Flash2k11 wrote:
jono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...

Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
If it were any driver, it'd more likely be Hulkenberg having a chat with his old mates down at Racing Point after Renault have kindly told him to find new employment at the end of the year.

I thought Hulk was offered a 1 year deal but refused...

Very interesting protest.
Team have many engine modes that change drivability = how power is delivered.
(By driver input)

I wonder if this is a loophole to change automatically how the brake by wire system is delivered.
They could argue the driver is still applying the force on the brake pedal, that they can still lock up etc = which could be argued driving unaided.

Whatever the outcome, Cyril needs to go as he is not delivering on the promises he made years ago.

iano · Post by **iano** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:13 am

UnlikeUday wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:I would love to see the protest, because IMO the Renault system is not illegal, but a novel way to improve the driver/car performance. I went over the regulations, and while such things as anti-lock are banned, this system is not actually anti-lock but just fine-tunes the braking balance dependent on which corner it is at.

For myself,I will label this as "innovation" and wait for proof of cheating.
Mate, I found this in another article:

'Such a brake system — essentially a driver aid — would be in breach of F1’s technical regulations. Aside from the rear break-by-wire, F1 regulations prevent any “powered device” add-ons to the brake systems.

Article 27.1 of the sport’s Sporting Regulations states drivers must “drive the car alone and unaided”.'

"alone and unaided" is not that clear at all.

When are you not alone? When there is no one at the track other than you? When there track is clear of other drivers? When you have no radio contact to your team? Or is it enough that there is no-one sitting in the car with you. Pretty sure only the one of that list is met.

Unaided? Is 'box now' giving aid? Is 'set engine mode X' as an instruction providing aid?
It sure helps have a steering wheel when wanting to turn...is that an aid?
You press the brakes to slow that car...that in itself is a big aid. Does the brake response have to be linear? Quite certain it is not.
So neither 'alone' nor 'unaided' totally unambiguous.

"Powered device" add-ons does seem more definitive. In the end there is usually a grey area...and perhaps they have crossed that. But I would image if it was completely black and white even the drivers would have reported it.

Yellowbin74 · Post by **Yellowbin74** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:16 pm

Reminds me of when BAR got banned for 2 races for using fuel as ballast.

AravJ · Post by **AravJ** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:09 pm

They probably got desperate to justify to their board the cost of late braker Ricciardo.
Unfortunately Ricciardo (as good as he is) cannot perform miracles, to they tried turning the brakes into a miracle.

If its true the drivers must know. They are going to be in a difficult position.

kleefton · Post by **kleefton** » Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:32 am

I can't believe that they would take that chance. Even with Cyril at the helm, who I personally have no belief in. But to jeopardize that much just to be relevant in the midfield? I don't see it. Something doesn't add up and I think it is probably Racing Point misunderstanding something and eventually Renault will be cleared of any wrongdoings. We shall see though.

Jezza13 · Post by **Jezza13** » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:42 am

jono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...

Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"

That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renault

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes

"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."

"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."

Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away & came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."

As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:00 pm

Jezza13 wrote:
jono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...

Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renault

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes

"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."

"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."

Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away & came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."

As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?

It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.

Siao7 · Post by **Siao7** » Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:28 pm

pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
jono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...

Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renault

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes

"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."

"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."

Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away & came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."

As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?
It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.

The only place this was mentioned was this thread frankly. And I guess they could fake some brake adjustments for the sake of it or something

mikeyg123 · Post by **mikeyg123** » Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:44 pm

Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
jono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...

Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renault

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes

"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."

"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."

Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away & came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."

As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?
It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.
The only place this was mentioned was this thread frankly. And I guess they could fake some brake adjustments for the sake of it or something

It was me that suggested it and I suggested it because I read it or heard it elsewhere. God knows where though!

Siao7 · Post by **Siao7** » Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:52 pm

mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
jono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...

Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renault

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes

"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."

"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."

Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away & came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."

As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?
It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.
The only place this was mentioned was this thread frankly. And I guess they could fake some brake adjustments for the sake of it or something
It was me that suggested it and I suggested it because I read it or heard it elsewhere. God knows where though!

I know it was you mikeyg, I am not sure if I have read it anywhere else

Jezza13 · Post by **Jezza13** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:37 am

pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
jono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...

Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renault

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes

"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."

"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."

Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away &
came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."

As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?
It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.

RP submitted a very complex & technical 12 page report outlining the evidence they have to back up the accusation?

So some are saying RP were able to submit this dossier, containing enough technical evidence to convince the FIA to investigate, simply based on what they believed to be the lack of brake adjustments made by the Renault drivers from the little onboard footage available each GP weekend.

I can understand them having suspicions that somethings not right from watching the footage but being able to submit complex, technical info? Me thinks Renault has a mouse in the house.

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:50 am

Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
jono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...

Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renault

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes

"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."

"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."

Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away & came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."

As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?
It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.
The only place this was mentioned was this thread frankly. And I guess they could fake some brake adjustments for the sake of it or something

I'm sure Marc Priestly mentioned it as well, he said either that or an ex employee spilling the beans.

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:50 am

mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
jono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...

Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renault

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes

"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."

"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."

Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away & came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."

As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?
It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.
The only place this was mentioned was this thread frankly. And I guess they could fake some brake adjustments for the sake of it or something
It was me that suggested it and I suggested it because I read it or heard it elsewhere. God knows where though!

Maybe Marc Priestly?

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:52 am

Jezza13 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
jono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...

Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renault

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes

"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."

"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."

Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away &
came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."

As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?
It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.
RP submitted a very complex & technical 12 page report outlining the evidence they have to back up the accusation?

So some are saying RP were able to submit this dossier, containing enough technical evidence to convince the FIA to investigate, simply based on what they believed to be the lack of brake adjustments made by the Renault drivers from the little onboard footage available each GP weekend.

I can understand them having suspicions that somethings not right from watching the footage but being able to submit complex, technical info? Me thinks Renault has a mouse in the house.

Didn't McLaren receive a $100M fine for having technical documents of a rivals car?

Siao7 · Post by **Siao7** » Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:21 pm

pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
jono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...

Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renault

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes

"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."

"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."

Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away &
came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."

As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?
It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.
RP submitted a very complex & technical 12 page report outlining the evidence they have to back up the accusation?

So some are saying RP were able to submit this dossier, containing enough technical evidence to convince the FIA to investigate, simply based on what they believed to be the lack of brake adjustments made by the Renault drivers from the little onboard footage available each GP weekend.

I can understand them having suspicions that somethings not right from watching the footage but being able to submit complex, technical info? Me thinks Renault has a mouse in the house.
Didn't McLaren receive a $100M fine for having technical documents of a rivals car?

I think a report outlining evidence is not the same as having a copy of your rival's documentation.

Tufty · Post by **Tufty** » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:30 pm

Siao7 wrote:I think a report outlining evidence is not the same as having a copy of your rival's documentation.

Ultimately, McLaren stole and used the IP for their own ends. RP - assuming they have the same level of documents about these brakes, which is unlikely - are showing it to the FIA instead. Huge difference there.

Siao7 · Post by **Siao7** » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:24 am

Tufty wrote:
Siao7 wrote:I think a report outlining evidence is not the same as having a copy of your rival's documentation.
Ultimately, McLaren stole and used the IP for their own ends. RP - assuming they have the same level of documents about these brakes, which is unlikely - are showing it to the FIA instead. Huge difference there.

Very true. Although IF they have acquired illegal docs, then that would be very naughty and I'd expect them to get a slap on the wrist.

Covalent · Post by **Covalent** » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:31 am

pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
jono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...

Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renault

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes

"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."

"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."

Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away &
came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."

As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?
It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.
RP submitted a very complex & technical 12 page report outlining the evidence they have to back up the accusation?

So some are saying RP were able to submit this dossier, containing enough technical evidence to convince the FIA to investigate, simply based on what they believed to be the lack of brake adjustments made by the Renault drivers from the little onboard footage available each GP weekend.

I can understand them having suspicions that somethings not right from watching the footage but being able to submit complex, technical info? Me thinks Renault has a mouse in the house.
Didn't McLaren receive a $100M fine for having technical documents of a rivals car?

Not just for having documents, but for illicitly collecting and holding information from Ferrari to confer a dishonest and fraudulent sporting advantage upon themselves.

pokerman · Post by **pokerman** » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:09 pm

Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote: That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renault

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes

"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."

"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."

Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away &
came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."

As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?
It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.
RP submitted a very complex & technical 12 page report outlining the evidence they have to back up the accusation?

So some are saying RP were able to submit this dossier, containing enough technical evidence to convince the FIA to investigate, simply based on what they believed to be the lack of brake adjustments made by the Renault drivers from the little onboard footage available each GP weekend.

I can understand them having suspicions that somethings not right from watching the footage but being able to submit complex, technical info? Me thinks Renault has a mouse in the house.
Didn't McLaren receive a $100M fine for having technical documents of a rivals car?
Not just for having documents, but for illicitly collecting and holding information from Ferrari to confer a dishonest and fraudulent sporting advantage upon themselves.

Initially it started with Nigel Stepney being a whistle blower informing his friend Mike Coughlin that Ferrari had used an illegal floor in Australia which got brought to the attention of the FIA who banned the floor, curiously though Kimi and Ferrari got to keep the win whilst all kinds of bad things are envisaged for Renault.

It's kind of strange that McLaren themselves are seen as having ownership of the documents when it was Coughlin's wife, who doesn't work for McLaren, that was caught in possession of the documents.

mikeyg123 · Post by **mikeyg123** » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:56 pm

pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
pokerman wrote: It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.
RP submitted a very complex & technical 12 page report outlining the evidence they have to back up the accusation?

So some are saying RP were able to submit this dossier, containing enough technical evidence to convince the FIA to investigate, simply based on what they believed to be the lack of brake adjustments made by the Renault drivers from the little onboard footage available each GP weekend.

I can understand them having suspicions that somethings not right from watching the footage but being able to submit complex, technical info? Me thinks Renault has a mouse in the house.
Didn't McLaren receive a $100M fine for having technical documents of a rivals car?
Not just for having documents, but for illicitly collecting and holding information from Ferrari to confer a dishonest and fraudulent sporting advantage upon themselves.
Initially it started with Nigel Stepney being a whistle blower informing his friend Mike Coughlin that Ferrari had used an illegal floor in Australia which got brought to the attention of the FIA who banned the floor, curiously though Kimi and Ferrari got to keep the win whilst all kinds of bad things are envisaged for Renault.

It's kind of strange that McLaren themselves are seen as having ownership of the documents when it was Coughlin's wife, who doesn't work for McLaren, that was caught in possession of the documents.

Mclaren weren't penalised for having the documents. You're massively downplaying what went on.

Asphalt_World · Post by **Asphalt_World** » Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:25 pm

pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
pokerman wrote: It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.
RP submitted a very complex & technical 12 page report outlining the evidence they have to back up the accusation?

So some are saying RP were able to submit this dossier, containing enough technical evidence to convince the FIA to investigate, simply based on what they believed to be the lack of brake adjustments made by the Renault drivers from the little onboard footage available each GP weekend.

I can understand them having suspicions that somethings not right from watching the footage but being able to submit complex, technical info? Me thinks Renault has a mouse in the house.
Didn't McLaren receive a $100M fine for having technical documents of a rivals car?
Not just for having documents, but for illicitly collecting and holding information from Ferrari to confer a dishonest and fraudulent sporting advantage upon themselves.
Initially it started with Nigel Stepney being a whistle blower informing his friend Mike Coughlin that Ferrari had used an illegal floor in Australia which got brought to the attention of the FIA who banned the floor, curiously though Kimi and Ferrari got to keep the win whilst all kinds of bad things are envisaged for Renault.

That's because the Ferrari floor passed all the FIA testing. The FIA then changed their testing so Ferrari had to change their floor.

Exediron · Post by **Exediron** » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:21 pm

Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:Initially it started with Nigel Stepney being a whistle blower informing his friend Mike Coughlin that Ferrari had used an illegal floor in Australia which got brought to the attention of the FIA who banned the floor, curiously though Kimi and Ferrari got to keep the win whilst all kinds of bad things are envisaged for Renault.
That's because the Ferrari floor passed all the FIA testing. The FIA then changed their testing so Ferrari had to change their floor.

Indeed. There's basically two classes of 'cheating' in F1:

a) The part is technically legal, but goes against what the FIA intends to be legal. They ban it, but it was legal when it was raced so no penalties.
b) The part was never legal and was being hidden from the FIA by some means. This is where penalties come in.

For example, the Haas floor that got them disqualified from the Italian GP. They weren't retroactively disqualified from any of the races where they had used it before the FIA ruled it illegal, but once they raced it after it was ruled illegal they were disqualified from that race.

Renault's brake system -- if it functions as alleged -- could fall into either category. If there's a computer actively changing brake bias throughout the race, I think that would put it into the 'b' category of being already illegal and hidden from the FIA. Driver aids are banned be default under the nebulous 'alone and unaided' rule.

oz_karter · Post by **oz_karter** » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:23 am

Lots of conjecture and comparison here, but does anyone know if or when there is a hearing on this?