Renault disqualified from Japanese GP!
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- UnlikeUday
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Renault disqualified from Japanese GP!
In Japan, Racing Point have filed a 12-page dossier with the FIA which states Renault has been using an illegal brake bias system. Also known as 'pre-set lap distance-dependent brake bias adjustment system'. The FIA accepted the dossier as a part of an official complaint & the decision regarding this can be very severe if Renault found guilty. A massive fine or exclusion from the world championship could be the penalty. This will also be a massive hit on Renault's brand image as a whole.
Ralf Schumacher does believe this braking system would be of a huge advantage in the race.
https://www.grandprix.com/news/renault- ... ntage.html
Ralf Schumacher said this:
“This cannot happen without the knowledge of a driver. If as a racer you don't have to adjust your brake balance yourself once, then the penny must fall...
“A driver is responsible for adjusting the brake balance. If this happens automatically, it gives a considerable advantage in turns. You can brake later and through the bend at a higher speed. An automatic system can always do that better than a person."
“The most obvious option is a whistleblower," he said. "There are more than 1000 people working for both teams: One of them will probably change jobs one day. Then it is possible that such information will come to light."
Ralf Schumacher does believe this braking system would be of a huge advantage in the race.
https://www.grandprix.com/news/renault- ... ntage.html
Ralf Schumacher said this:
“This cannot happen without the knowledge of a driver. If as a racer you don't have to adjust your brake balance yourself once, then the penny must fall...
“A driver is responsible for adjusting the brake balance. If this happens automatically, it gives a considerable advantage in turns. You can brake later and through the bend at a higher speed. An automatic system can always do that better than a person."
“The most obvious option is a whistleblower," he said. "There are more than 1000 people working for both teams: One of them will probably change jobs one day. Then it is possible that such information will come to light."
Last edited by UnlikeUday on Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
What is it with Endstone and cheating?
(allegedley)
(allegedley)
Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
If found guilty this could have real repercussions. This would be a case of deliberate cheating. The only sensible course of action would be to DSQ Renault from all races they have used the system and give them a multi race ban going forward.
However if a penalty like that was attempted Renault would probably just threaten to pull the plug.
However if a penalty like that was attempted Renault would probably just threaten to pull the plug.
Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
When is a deicison on this expected?
Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
What I'd like to know is how Racing Point got access to Renault's braking system?
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
Could be as simple as analysing the on-boards and noticing the Renault drivers never change their break bias.pokerman wrote:What I'd like to know is how Racing Point got access to Renault's braking system?
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
I had heard it would be today but looks more likely in the next few days!JN23 wrote:When is a deicison on this expected?
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- Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
Back in the day you used to cheat to try and get a win or a WDC. But to risk all this just for treading water in the midfield...
Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
Maybe it just shows the amount of pressure the team is under?Alienturnedhuman wrote:Back in the day you used to cheat to try and get a win or a WDC. But to risk all this just for treading water in the midfield...
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
I hope this was not just done to beat McLaren in the WCC?pokerman wrote:Maybe it just shows the amount of pressure the team is under?Alienturnedhuman wrote:Back in the day you used to cheat to try and get a win or a WDC. But to risk all this just for treading water in the midfield...
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
The reality is that Cyril Abiteboul sets the tone and culture and he's someone who has always rubbed me the wrong way.
He's someone who seems inept and incapable of running of anything much less an F1 operation.
He's someone who seems inept and incapable of running of anything much less an F1 operation.
HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: LECLERC :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA
Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
Nah, It's usually the midfield that cheats. Remember BAR's secret fuel tank or Tyrrell's lead shot ballast.Alienturnedhuman wrote:Back in the day you used to cheat to try and get a win or a WDC. But to risk all this just for treading water in the midfield...
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
I would love to see the protest, because IMO the Renault system is not illegal, but a novel way to improve the driver/car performance. I went over the regulations, and while such things as anti-lock are banned, this system is not actually anti-lock but just fine-tunes the braking balance dependent on which corner it is at.
For myself,I will label this as "innovation" and wait for proof of cheating.
For myself,I will label this as "innovation" and wait for proof of cheating.
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
If the brake bias adjustment does something different depending on the corner, then it is an automated adjustment which I don't believe is legal. However, they do something similar with ERS deployment which seems to be totally fine so I have no idea.Blinky McSquinty wrote:I would love to see the protest, because IMO the Renault system is not illegal, but a novel way to improve the driver/car performance. I went over the regulations, and while such things as anti-lock are banned, this system is not actually anti-lock but just fine-tunes the braking balance dependent on which corner it is at.
For myself,I will label this as "innovation" and wait for proof of cheating.
"Guys I'm coming in, I'm having too much grip"
- Chanoch Nissany
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
Mate, I found this in another article:Blinky McSquinty wrote:I would love to see the protest, because IMO the Renault system is not illegal, but a novel way to improve the driver/car performance. I went over the regulations, and while such things as anti-lock are banned, this system is not actually anti-lock but just fine-tunes the braking balance dependent on which corner it is at.
For myself,I will label this as "innovation" and wait for proof of cheating.
'Such a brake system — essentially a driver aid — would be in breach of F1’s technical regulations. Aside from the rear break-by-wire, F1 regulations prevent any “powered device” add-ons to the brake systems.
Article 27.1 of the sport’s Sporting Regulations states drivers must “drive the car alone and unaided”.'
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...
Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
"Guys I'm coming in, I'm having too much grip"
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
If it were any driver, it'd more likely be Hulkenberg having a chat with his old mates down at Racing Point after Renault have kindly told him to find new employment at the end of the year.jono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...
Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
I thought Hulk was offered a 1 year deal but refused...Flash2k11 wrote:If it were any driver, it'd more likely be Hulkenberg having a chat with his old mates down at Racing Point after Renault have kindly told him to find new employment at the end of the year.jono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...
Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
Very interesting protest.
Team have many engine modes that change drivability = how power is delivered.
(By driver input)
I wonder if this is a loophole to change automatically how the brake by wire system is delivered.
They could argue the driver is still applying the force on the brake pedal, that they can still lock up etc = which could be argued driving unaided.
Whatever the outcome, Cyril needs to go as he is not delivering on the promises he made years ago.
Dan the man!
Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
"alone and unaided" is not that clear at all.UnlikeUday wrote:Mate, I found this in another article:Blinky McSquinty wrote:I would love to see the protest, because IMO the Renault system is not illegal, but a novel way to improve the driver/car performance. I went over the regulations, and while such things as anti-lock are banned, this system is not actually anti-lock but just fine-tunes the braking balance dependent on which corner it is at.
For myself,I will label this as "innovation" and wait for proof of cheating.
'Such a brake system — essentially a driver aid — would be in breach of F1’s technical regulations. Aside from the rear break-by-wire, F1 regulations prevent any “powered device” add-ons to the brake systems.
Article 27.1 of the sport’s Sporting Regulations states drivers must “drive the car alone and unaided”.'
When are you not alone? When there is no one at the track other than you? When there track is clear of other drivers? When you have no radio contact to your team? Or is it enough that there is no-one sitting in the car with you. Pretty sure only the one of that list is met.
Unaided? Is 'box now' giving aid? Is 'set engine mode X' as an instruction providing aid?
It sure helps have a steering wheel when wanting to turn...is that an aid?
You press the brakes to slow that car...that in itself is a big aid. Does the brake response have to be linear? Quite certain it is not.
So neither 'alone' nor 'unaided' totally unambiguous.
"Powered device" add-ons does seem more definitive. In the end there is usually a grey area...and perhaps they have crossed that. But I would image if it was completely black and white even the drivers would have reported it.
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
Reminds me of when BAR got banned for 2 races for using fuel as ballast.
Should I grow a beard?
Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
They probably got desperate to justify to their board the cost of late braker Ricciardo.
Unfortunately Ricciardo (as good as he is) cannot perform miracles, to they tried turning the brakes into a miracle.
If its true the drivers must know. They are going to be in a difficult position.
Unfortunately Ricciardo (as good as he is) cannot perform miracles, to they tried turning the brakes into a miracle.


If its true the drivers must know. They are going to be in a difficult position.
Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
I can't believe that they would take that chance. Even with Cyril at the helm, who I personally have no belief in. But to jeopardize that much just to be relevant in the midfield? I don't see it. Something doesn't add up and I think it is probably Racing Point misunderstanding something and eventually Renault will be cleared of any wrongdoings. We shall see though.
Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renaultjono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...
Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes
"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."
"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."
Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away & came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."
As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.Jezza13 wrote:That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renaultjono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...
Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes
"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."
"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."
Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away & came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."
As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?
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Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 165 (1st)
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion
Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
The only place this was mentioned was this thread frankly. And I guess they could fake some brake adjustments for the sake of it or somethingpokerman wrote:It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.Jezza13 wrote:That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renaultjono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...
Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes
"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."
"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."
Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away & came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."
As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?
Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
It was me that suggested it and I suggested it because I read it or heard it elsewhere. God knows where though!Siao7 wrote:The only place this was mentioned was this thread frankly. And I guess they could fake some brake adjustments for the sake of it or somethingpokerman wrote:It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.Jezza13 wrote:That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renaultjono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...
Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes
"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."
"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."
Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away & came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."
As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?
Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
I know it was you mikeyg, I am not sure if I have read it anywhere elsemikeyg123 wrote:It was me that suggested it and I suggested it because I read it or heard it elsewhere. God knows where though!Siao7 wrote:The only place this was mentioned was this thread frankly. And I guess they could fake some brake adjustments for the sake of it or somethingpokerman wrote:It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.Jezza13 wrote:That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renaultjono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...
Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes
"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."
"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."
Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away & came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."
As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?
Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
RP submitted a very complex & technical 12 page report outlining the evidence they have to back up the accusation?pokerman wrote:It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.Jezza13 wrote:That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renaultjono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...
Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes
"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."
"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."
Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away &
came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."
As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?
So some are saying RP were able to submit this dossier, containing enough technical evidence to convince the FIA to investigate, simply based on what they believed to be the lack of brake adjustments made by the Renault drivers from the little onboard footage available each GP weekend.
I can understand them having suspicions that somethings not right from watching the footage but being able to submit complex, technical info? Me thinks Renault has a mouse in the house.
Only took 7 yrs, 5 mths & 21 days.
Cooper, Arrows, Brabham, Ligier, Lotus, Tyrrell, Minardi, McLaren, Sauber, Williams,
Remember the garagista's. The heart & soul of F1. They raced to race.
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Remember the garagista's. The heart & soul of F1. They raced to race.
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
I'm sure Marc Priestly mentioned it as well, he said either that or an ex employee spilling the beans.Siao7 wrote:The only place this was mentioned was this thread frankly. And I guess they could fake some brake adjustments for the sake of it or somethingpokerman wrote:It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.Jezza13 wrote:That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renaultjono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...
Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes
"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."
"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."
Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away & came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."
As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?
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World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 95 (1st)
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World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 95 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 165 (1st)
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion
Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
Maybe Marc Priestly?mikeyg123 wrote:It was me that suggested it and I suggested it because I read it or heard it elsewhere. God knows where though!Siao7 wrote:The only place this was mentioned was this thread frankly. And I guess they could fake some brake adjustments for the sake of it or somethingpokerman wrote:It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.Jezza13 wrote:That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renaultjono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...
Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes
"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."
"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."
Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away & came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."
As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?
Lewis Hamilton #44
World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 95 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 165 (1st)
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion
World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 95 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 165 (1st)
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion
Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
Didn't McLaren receive a $100M fine for having technical documents of a rivals car?Jezza13 wrote:RP submitted a very complex & technical 12 page report outlining the evidence they have to back up the accusation?pokerman wrote:It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.Jezza13 wrote:That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renaultjono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...
Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes
"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."
"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."
Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away &
came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."
As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?
So some are saying RP were able to submit this dossier, containing enough technical evidence to convince the FIA to investigate, simply based on what they believed to be the lack of brake adjustments made by the Renault drivers from the little onboard footage available each GP weekend.
I can understand them having suspicions that somethings not right from watching the footage but being able to submit complex, technical info? Me thinks Renault has a mouse in the house.
Lewis Hamilton #44
World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 95 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 165 (1st)
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
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World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
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Podiums: 165 (1st)
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
I think a report outlining evidence is not the same as having a copy of your rival's documentation.pokerman wrote:Didn't McLaren receive a $100M fine for having technical documents of a rivals car?Jezza13 wrote:RP submitted a very complex & technical 12 page report outlining the evidence they have to back up the accusation?pokerman wrote:It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.Jezza13 wrote:That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renaultjono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...
Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes
"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."
"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."
Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away &
came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."
As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?
So some are saying RP were able to submit this dossier, containing enough technical evidence to convince the FIA to investigate, simply based on what they believed to be the lack of brake adjustments made by the Renault drivers from the little onboard footage available each GP weekend.
I can understand them having suspicions that somethings not right from watching the footage but being able to submit complex, technical info? Me thinks Renault has a mouse in the house.
Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
Ultimately, McLaren stole and used the IP for their own ends. RP - assuming they have the same level of documents about these brakes, which is unlikely - are showing it to the FIA instead. Huge difference there.Siao7 wrote:I think a report outlining evidence is not the same as having a copy of your rival's documentation.
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
Very true. Although IF they have acquired illegal docs, then that would be very naughty and I'd expect them to get a slap on the wrist.Tufty wrote:Ultimately, McLaren stole and used the IP for their own ends. RP - assuming they have the same level of documents about these brakes, which is unlikely - are showing it to the FIA instead. Huge difference there.Siao7 wrote:I think a report outlining evidence is not the same as having a copy of your rival's documentation.
Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
Not just for having documents, but for illicitly collecting and holding information from Ferrari to confer a dishonest and fraudulent sporting advantage upon themselves.pokerman wrote:Didn't McLaren receive a $100M fine for having technical documents of a rivals car?Jezza13 wrote:RP submitted a very complex & technical 12 page report outlining the evidence they have to back up the accusation?pokerman wrote:It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.Jezza13 wrote:That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renaultjono794 wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if this was info brought in by Ricciardo about how the Red Bull brakes work, but no one protested them because there's no gain in it for any other team... Conspiracies abound...
Not suggesting Ricciardo would knowingly cheat, just a scenario of "Hey guys, the Red Bull was like this, how come we can't do it too?"
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes
"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."
"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."
Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away &
came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."
As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?
So some are saying RP were able to submit this dossier, containing enough technical evidence to convince the FIA to investigate, simply based on what they believed to be the lack of brake adjustments made by the Renault drivers from the little onboard footage available each GP weekend.
I can understand them having suspicions that somethings not right from watching the footage but being able to submit complex, technical info? Me thinks Renault has a mouse in the house.
Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
Initially it started with Nigel Stepney being a whistle blower informing his friend Mike Coughlin that Ferrari had used an illegal floor in Australia which got brought to the attention of the FIA who banned the floor, curiously though Kimi and Ferrari got to keep the win whilst all kinds of bad things are envisaged for Renault.Covalent wrote:Not just for having documents, but for illicitly collecting and holding information from Ferrari to confer a dishonest and fraudulent sporting advantage upon themselves.pokerman wrote:Didn't McLaren receive a $100M fine for having technical documents of a rivals car?Jezza13 wrote:RP submitted a very complex & technical 12 page report outlining the evidence they have to back up the accusation?pokerman wrote:It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.Jezza13 wrote: That's interesting considering his comments from earlier in the year when discussing one of the main differences he identified between RB & Renault
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14289 ... dge-brakes
"He had identified braking as one of the major factors, saying ahead of the Chinese Grand Prix: "At least for now it is a bit more on a knife edge in that area."
"At Red Bull it was definitely a strength of mine, having that feeling and confidence on braking, on overtaking and on one lap as well."
Now he may have just said to Renault " The brakes are no good compared to RB", & they went away &
came up with this solution, but he also might've said " The brakes are no good compared to RB because they had a system where ..........."
As for for how RP got their hands on the info, surly that'd have to be the work of a whistle blower wouldn't it?
So some are saying RP were able to submit this dossier, containing enough technical evidence to convince the FIA to investigate, simply based on what they believed to be the lack of brake adjustments made by the Renault drivers from the little onboard footage available each GP weekend.
I can understand them having suspicions that somethings not right from watching the footage but being able to submit complex, technical info? Me thinks Renault has a mouse in the house.
It's kind of strange that McLaren themselves are seen as having ownership of the documents when it was Coughlin's wife, who doesn't work for McLaren, that was caught in possession of the documents.
Lewis Hamilton #44
World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 95 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 165 (1st)
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion
World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 95 (1st)
Pole Positions: 98 (1st)
Podiums: 165 (1st)
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion
Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
Mclaren weren't penalised for having the documents. You're massively downplaying what went on.pokerman wrote:Initially it started with Nigel Stepney being a whistle blower informing his friend Mike Coughlin that Ferrari had used an illegal floor in Australia which got brought to the attention of the FIA who banned the floor, curiously though Kimi and Ferrari got to keep the win whilst all kinds of bad things are envisaged for Renault.Covalent wrote:Not just for having documents, but for illicitly collecting and holding information from Ferrari to confer a dishonest and fraudulent sporting advantage upon themselves.pokerman wrote:Didn't McLaren receive a $100M fine for having technical documents of a rivals car?Jezza13 wrote:RP submitted a very complex & technical 12 page report outlining the evidence they have to back up the accusation?pokerman wrote: It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.
So some are saying RP were able to submit this dossier, containing enough technical evidence to convince the FIA to investigate, simply based on what they believed to be the lack of brake adjustments made by the Renault drivers from the little onboard footage available each GP weekend.
I can understand them having suspicions that somethings not right from watching the footage but being able to submit complex, technical info? Me thinks Renault has a mouse in the house.
It's kind of strange that McLaren themselves are seen as having ownership of the documents when it was Coughlin's wife, who doesn't work for McLaren, that was caught in possession of the documents.
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
That's because the Ferrari floor passed all the FIA testing. The FIA then changed their testing so Ferrari had to change their floor.pokerman wrote:Initially it started with Nigel Stepney being a whistle blower informing his friend Mike Coughlin that Ferrari had used an illegal floor in Australia which got brought to the attention of the FIA who banned the floor, curiously though Kimi and Ferrari got to keep the win whilst all kinds of bad things are envisaged for Renault.Covalent wrote:Not just for having documents, but for illicitly collecting and holding information from Ferrari to confer a dishonest and fraudulent sporting advantage upon themselves.pokerman wrote:Didn't McLaren receive a $100M fine for having technical documents of a rivals car?Jezza13 wrote:RP submitted a very complex & technical 12 page report outlining the evidence they have to back up the accusation?pokerman wrote: It's been mooted as it could be something as simple as watching the driver onboards and noticing the drivers not making the necessary adjustments.
So some are saying RP were able to submit this dossier, containing enough technical evidence to convince the FIA to investigate, simply based on what they believed to be the lack of brake adjustments made by the Renault drivers from the little onboard footage available each GP weekend.
I can understand them having suspicions that somethings not right from watching the footage but being able to submit complex, technical info? Me thinks Renault has a mouse in the house.
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Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
Indeed. There's basically two classes of 'cheating' in F1:Asphalt_World wrote:That's because the Ferrari floor passed all the FIA testing. The FIA then changed their testing so Ferrari had to change their floor.pokerman wrote:Initially it started with Nigel Stepney being a whistle blower informing his friend Mike Coughlin that Ferrari had used an illegal floor in Australia which got brought to the attention of the FIA who banned the floor, curiously though Kimi and Ferrari got to keep the win whilst all kinds of bad things are envisaged for Renault.
a) The part is technically legal, but goes against what the FIA intends to be legal. They ban it, but it was legal when it was raced so no penalties.
b) The part was never legal and was being hidden from the FIA by some means. This is where penalties come in.
For example, the Haas floor that got them disqualified from the Italian GP. They weren't retroactively disqualified from any of the races where they had used it before the FIA ruled it illegal, but once they raced it after it was ruled illegal they were disqualified from that race.
Renault's brake system -- if it functions as alleged -- could fall into either category. If there's a computer actively changing brake bias throughout the race, I think that would put it into the 'b' category of being already illegal and hidden from the FIA. Driver aids are banned be default under the nebulous 'alone and unaided' rule.
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
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TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion
Re: Renault using a Illegal Braking System?
Lots of conjecture and comparison here, but does anyone know if or when there is a hearing on this?