The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Forum rules
Please read the forum rules
mikeyg123
Posts: 18026
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Pullrod wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:Could Sainz's awesome performance this year also down to the McLaren car? McLaren hasn't brought a big upgrade package but instead has brought small upgrades to every race which is why it kept improving ever so slightly to build such a cushion to the midfield.
https://f1i.com/news/358709-mclaren-mid ... sainz.html

IMO Sainz in this year's McLaren would be more comfortable & competitive around most of the tracks when compared to Checo in '16 or '17 Force India. McLaren's chassis & downforce were always awesome whereas in '16 & '17 Force India was best of the rest mainly due to the (then best)Mercedes engine & because most of the midfield teams were struggling to improve.

Mod edit: URL fixed
Like every driver.
The only way to make "more" points than what is possible is through luck.

I don't understand why you and others are trying very hard not to give any credit to Sainz Jr.

I remember a thread at the beginning of the year where people could vote on who would beat who between Norris vs Sainz and Norris was the clear winner in any poll I have read on the internet.

The reality is not what people were expecting and they don't like it, so there must be a reason. ;)
Well this post is entirely false. Here is why -

http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15370


I think it's clear people were expecting Sainz to walk over Norris. He has on points but certainly not in terms of performances.

Seeing this reinforces my opinion that had Sainz performing like this against Norris in a poorer car that was not able to score consistent points he'd be getting panned rather than praised.

Pullrod
Posts: 824
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:04 pm

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by Pullrod »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:Could Sainz's awesome performance this year also down to the McLaren car? McLaren hasn't brought a big upgrade package but instead has brought small upgrades to every race which is why it kept improving ever so slightly to build such a cushion to the midfield.
https://f1i.com/news/358709-mclaren-mid ... sainz.html

IMO Sainz in this year's McLaren would be more comfortable & competitive around most of the tracks when compared to Checo in '16 or '17 Force India. McLaren's chassis & downforce were always awesome whereas in '16 & '17 Force India was best of the rest mainly due to the (then best)Mercedes engine & because most of the midfield teams were struggling to improve.

Mod edit: URL fixed
Like every driver.
The only way to make "more" points than what is possible is through luck.

I don't understand why you and others are trying very hard not to give any credit to Sainz Jr.

I remember a thread at the beginning of the year where people could vote on who would beat who between Norris vs Sainz and Norris was the clear winner in any poll I have read on the internet.

The reality is not what people were expecting and they don't like it, so there must be a reason. ;)
Well this post is entirely false. Here is why -

http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15370


I think it's clear people were expecting Sainz to walk over Norris. He has on points but certainly not in terms of performances.

Seeing this reinforces my opinion that had Sainz performing like this against Norris in a poorer car that was not able to score consistent points he'd be getting panned rather than praised.
Well it is clear you don't rate him.
And I have read enough forums in multiple languages to know that people don't rate him either for whatever reason.
Any time Norris had a good weekend the threads were very active. But when Sainz had one it was very quiet.

You are not alone though as Brown/Seidl said months ago how they were surprised by Sainz's speed.
It makes you wonder if we ever watch the same races (with live timing).

Since Perez is your favorite you should know that I rate him very highly and I think it is a tragedy he has never had a top car and if it was not for the Ferrari interference in 2012, Alonso would have had 1 win less. But hey it is what it is.

mikeyg123
Posts: 18026
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:Could Sainz's awesome performance this year also down to the McLaren car? McLaren hasn't brought a big upgrade package but instead has brought small upgrades to every race which is why it kept improving ever so slightly to build such a cushion to the midfield.
https://f1i.com/news/358709-mclaren-mid ... sainz.html

IMO Sainz in this year's McLaren would be more comfortable & competitive around most of the tracks when compared to Checo in '16 or '17 Force India. McLaren's chassis & downforce were always awesome whereas in '16 & '17 Force India was best of the rest mainly due to the (then best)Mercedes engine & because most of the midfield teams were struggling to improve.

Mod edit: URL fixed
Like every driver.
The only way to make "more" points than what is possible is through luck.

I don't understand why you and others are trying very hard not to give any credit to Sainz Jr.

I remember a thread at the beginning of the year where people could vote on who would beat who between Norris vs Sainz and Norris was the clear winner in any poll I have read on the internet.

The reality is not what people were expecting and they don't like it, so there must be a reason. ;)
Well this post is entirely false. Here is why -

http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15370


I think it's clear people were expecting Sainz to walk over Norris. He has on points but certainly not in terms of performances.

Seeing this reinforces my opinion that had Sainz performing like this against Norris in a poorer car that was not able to score consistent points he'd be getting panned rather than praised.
Well it is clear you don't rate him.
And I have read enough forums in multiple languages to know that people don't rate him either for whatever reason.
Any time Norris had a good weekend the threads were very active. But when Sainz had one it was very quiet.

You are not alone though as Brown/Seidl said months ago how they were surprised by Sainz's speed.
It makes you wonder if we ever watch the same races (with live timing).

Since Perez is your favorite you should know that I rate him very highly and I think it is a tragedy he has never had a top car and if it was not for the Ferrari interference in 2012, Alonso would have had 1 win less. But hey it is what it is.
Norris beating Sainz is simply more noteworthy because we expect Sainz to be able to beat a rookie. The poll at the beginning of the year indicates that.

User avatar
Mort Canard
Posts: 1561
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:58 am
Location: Kansas

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by Mort Canard »

Congrats to Carlos Jr. for a well earned podium even if he didn't get to celebrate it from there.

That was a great drive from the very back of the grid. Yes, he had some help from retirements and a few things falling his way but he did do what he needed to.

I am hoping that Carlos can start to make a few more trips to the podium and to earn some by outperforming drivers from the top three teams.

At 92 points on the season Carlos is only 3 points adrift from Pierre Gasly. Looks like that will be the battle for the 2019 "Best of the Rest".
Mission WinLater

pokerman
Posts: 35612
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by pokerman »

Mort Canard wrote:Congrats to Carlos Jr. for a well earned podium even if he didn't get to celebrate it from there.

That was a great drive from the very back of the grid. Yes, he had some help from retirements and a few things falling his way but he did do what he needed to.

I am hoping that Carlos can start to make a few more trips to the podium and to earn some by outperforming drivers from the top three teams.

At 92 points on the season Carlos is only 3 points adrift from Pierre Gasly. Looks like that will be the battle for the 2019 "Best of the Rest".
Gasly doesn't qualify for that because he drove half a season for Red Bull.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 94 (1st)
Pole Positions: 97 (1st)
Podiums: 163 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

User avatar
Mort Canard
Posts: 1561
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:58 am
Location: Kansas

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by Mort Canard »

pokerman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:Congrats to Carlos Jr. for a well earned podium even if he didn't get to celebrate it from there.

That was a great drive from the very back of the grid. Yes, he had some help from retirements and a few things falling his way but he did do what he needed to.

I am hoping that Carlos can start to make a few more trips to the podium and to earn some by outperforming drivers from the top three teams.

At 92 points on the season Carlos is only 3 points adrift from Pierre Gasly. Looks like that will be the battle for the 2019 "Best of the Rest".
Gasly doesn't qualify for that because he drove half a season for Red Bull.
...and even so Carlos could end up beating Pierre in the WDC standings. Will be interesting to watch the results from Abu Dhabi.
Mission WinLater

F1 Racer
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by F1 Racer »

Mort Canard wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:Congrats to Carlos Jr. for a well earned podium even if he didn't get to celebrate it from there.

That was a great drive from the very back of the grid. Yes, he had some help from retirements and a few things falling his way but he did do what he needed to.

I am hoping that Carlos can start to make a few more trips to the podium and to earn some by outperforming drivers from the top three teams.

At 92 points on the season Carlos is only 3 points adrift from Pierre Gasly. Looks like that will be the battle for the 2019 "Best of the Rest".
Gasly doesn't qualify for that because he drove half a season for Red Bull.
...and even so Carlos could end up beating Pierre in the WDC standings. Will be interesting to watch the results from Abu Dhabi.
Not really because whether you come 6th or 7th in the WDC is kind of meaningless.

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8227
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by Exediron »

F1 Racer wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:Congrats to Carlos Jr. for a well earned podium even if he didn't get to celebrate it from there.

That was a great drive from the very back of the grid. Yes, he had some help from retirements and a few things falling his way but he did do what he needed to.

I am hoping that Carlos can start to make a few more trips to the podium and to earn some by outperforming drivers from the top three teams.

At 92 points on the season Carlos is only 3 points adrift from Pierre Gasly. Looks like that will be the battle for the 2019 "Best of the Rest".
Gasly doesn't qualify for that because he drove half a season for Red Bull.
...and even so Carlos could end up beating Pierre in the WDC standings. Will be interesting to watch the results from Abu Dhabi.
Not really because whether you come 6th or 7th in the WDC is kind of meaningless.
If you're looking at it like that, anything but 1st is meaningless.

6th place would be a nice morale boost for Carlos and for the team. It would mean he beat the combined point earning of the #2 Red Bull seat over the course of the year, finishing ahead of both drivers who drove in that car. That's a statement that means McLaren isn't too far from fighting with the big teams. Since 2016, I don't think anyone has beaten a driver from one of the Big Three.
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

User avatar
Tufty
Posts: 2040
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:33 pm
Location: Colwyn Bay, North Wales

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by Tufty »

Exediron wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:Congrats to Carlos Jr. for a well earned podium even if he didn't get to celebrate it from there.

That was a great drive from the very back of the grid. Yes, he had some help from retirements and a few things falling his way but he did do what he needed to.

I am hoping that Carlos can start to make a few more trips to the podium and to earn some by outperforming drivers from the top three teams.

At 92 points on the season Carlos is only 3 points adrift from Pierre Gasly. Looks like that will be the battle for the 2019 "Best of the Rest".
Gasly doesn't qualify for that because he drove half a season for Red Bull.
...and even so Carlos could end up beating Pierre in the WDC standings. Will be interesting to watch the results from Abu Dhabi.
Not really because whether you come 6th or 7th in the WDC is kind of meaningless.
If you're looking at it like that, anything but 1st is meaningless.

6th place would be a nice morale boost for Carlos and for the team. It would mean he beat the combined point earning of the #2 Red Bull seat over the course of the year, finishing ahead of both drivers who drove in that car. That's a statement that means McLaren isn't too far from fighting with the big teams. Since 2016, I don't think anyone has beaten a driver from one of the Big Three.
To be fair, both drivers spent around half the season in a Toro Rosso, which was generally slower than the McLaren in race trim.
Organiser of the single most low-tech Robot Wars tournament in history, PM for details!

F1 Racer
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by F1 Racer »

Exediron wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:Congrats to Carlos Jr. for a well earned podium even if he didn't get to celebrate it from there.

That was a great drive from the very back of the grid. Yes, he had some help from retirements and a few things falling his way but he did do what he needed to.

I am hoping that Carlos can start to make a few more trips to the podium and to earn some by outperforming drivers from the top three teams.

At 92 points on the season Carlos is only 3 points adrift from Pierre Gasly. Looks like that will be the battle for the 2019 "Best of the Rest".
Gasly doesn't qualify for that because he drove half a season for Red Bull.
...and even so Carlos could end up beating Pierre in the WDC standings. Will be interesting to watch the results from Abu Dhabi.
Not really because whether you come 6th or 7th in the WDC is kind of meaningless.
If you're looking at it like that, anything but 1st is meaningless.

6th place would be a nice morale boost for Carlos and for the team. It would mean he beat the combined point earning of the #2 Red Bull seat over the course of the year, finishing ahead of both drivers who drove in that car. That's a statement that means McLaren isn't too far from fighting with the big teams. Since 2016, I don't think anyone has beaten a driver from one of the Big Three.
No, getting runner up spot or maybe even 3rd in the WDC is not meaningless, but after that no one really remembers where you came. A couple of years ago, or maybe even last season, some people were wondering if Alonso could come 10th in the WDC in his terrible McLaren, but in reality it didn't matter whether he did or not, the same with this 6th/7th battle with Gasly/Sainz.

As for the supposed morale boost of beating the number 2 Red Bull seat, he obviously is nowhere near doing this, (Gasly scored I think 62 points and Albon 68 points with a race left so a combined 130 points in total, Sainz is on 95 points). So no statement would be made, McLaren is still far from fighting the big teams as they are still comfortably losing to the number 2 Red Bull car even when it is driven by bad drivers.

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8227
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by Exediron »

F1 Racer wrote:As for the supposed morale boost of beating the number 2 Red Bull seat, he obviously is nowhere near doing this, (Gasly scored I think 62 points and Albon 68 points with a race left so a combined 130 points in total, Sainz is on 95 points). So no statement would be made, McLaren is still far from fighting the big teams as they are still comfortably losing to the number 2 Red Bull car even when it is driven by bad drivers.
Okay, so not as close as I had thought. Oh well. :lol:
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

Ruste13
Posts: 369
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:35 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by Ruste13 »

It's hard being a McLaren tragic hey Ex...

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8227
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by Exediron »

Ruste13 wrote:It's hard being a McLaren tragic hey Ex...
It has been. This year I've been enjoying it, just because it's nice for the team to have something to fight for every weekend. I'll get tired of it if there's no step forward next year, but for now not so bad...
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

User avatar
UnlikeUday
Posts: 8548
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:53 pm
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by UnlikeUday »

Exediron wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:As for the supposed morale boost of beating the number 2 Red Bull seat, he obviously is nowhere near doing this, (Gasly scored I think 62 points and Albon 68 points with a race left so a combined 130 points in total, Sainz is on 95 points). So no statement would be made, McLaren is still far from fighting the big teams as they are still comfortably losing to the number 2 Red Bull car even when it is driven by bad drivers.
Okay, so not as close as I had thought. Oh well. :lol:
But McLaren are the best of the rest by a good margin. They've got an all-round car which is good on literally most tracks due to their brilliant chassis & downforce. No doubt, they're far off from Red Bull now but in 2021 when they'll use Mercedes engines, I believe they'll be in the top tier group.
Feel The Fourth

User avatar
Mort Canard
Posts: 1561
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:58 am
Location: Kansas

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by Mort Canard »

UnlikeUday wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:As for the supposed morale boost of beating the number 2 Red Bull seat, he obviously is nowhere near doing this, (Gasly scored I think 62 points and Albon 68 points with a race left so a combined 130 points in total, Sainz is on 95 points). So no statement would be made, McLaren is still far from fighting the big teams as they are still comfortably losing to the number 2 Red Bull car even when it is driven by bad drivers.
Okay, so not as close as I had thought. Oh well. :lol:
But McLaren are the best of the rest by a good margin. They've got an all-round car which is good on literally most tracks due to their brilliant chassis & downforce. No doubt, they're far off from Red Bull now but in 2021 when they'll use Mercedes engines, I believe they'll be in the top tier group.
I think McLaren will also be very much aided by the driver lineup they have in place. Both Sainz and Norris have learned a lot in 2019 and improved their racecraft. I expect that Albon will find a lot of competition from Sainz and Norris next year in the WDC.

That said McLaren have a long way to go to catch Red Bull in the WCC.
1 Mercedes 739
2 Ferrari 504
3 Red Bull 417
4 McLaren 145
5 Renault 91
6 Toro Rosso 85

They will definitely need to up their game to get into the top tier.
Mission WinLater

User avatar
Mort Canard
Posts: 1561
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:58 am
Location: Kansas

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by Mort Canard »

Well, Carlos has received a big vote of confidence from Ferrari. I will be curious to see how the pairing of Charles and Carlos goes.

I would hope that Binotto isn't just hiring him to be a domestique to Leclerc.
Mission WinLater

BMWSauber84
Posts: 767
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Mort Canard wrote:Well, Carlos has received a big vote of confidence from Ferrari. I will be curious to see how the pairing of Charles and Carlos goes.

I would hope that Binotto isn't just hiring him to be a domestique to Leclerc.
I suspect that's exactly why he is hiring him. It's actually more like a massive vote of confidence for Leclerc. Ferrari clearly trust him to lead the team for years to come. I'm delighted for Carlos to get this opportunity though, and ultimately I think he is a shrewd, solid choice.

User avatar
Mort Canard
Posts: 1561
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:58 am
Location: Kansas

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by Mort Canard »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:Well, Carlos has received a big vote of confidence from Ferrari. I will be curious to see how the pairing of Charles and Carlos goes.

I would hope that Binotto isn't just hiring him to be a domestique to Leclerc.
I suspect that's exactly why he is hiring him. It's actually more like a massive vote of confidence for Leclerc. Ferrari clearly trust him to lead the team for years to come. I'm delighted for Carlos to get this opportunity though, and ultimately I think he is a shrewd, solid choice.
I suspect you may be right. I hope that Carlos can surprise both Ferrari and Leclerc.
Mission WinLater

kleefton
Posts: 4015
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by kleefton »

Mort Canard wrote:Well, Carlos has received a big vote of confidence from Ferrari. I will be curious to see how the pairing of Charles and Carlos goes.

I would hope that Binotto isn't just hiring him to be a domestique to Leclerc.
Charles will be faster than Sainz in qualifying for sure. In the races I'm not so sure, but if I had to guess I think Charles will win that one too. They are not hiring him to be a Leclerc servant, but they chose someone who is likely not to rock the boat, and will be solid every weekend. Vettel and Leclerc was quite a toxic pairing, so I can understand why they did not want to potentially have that again because imo Ricciardo and Leclerc would have caused problems too.

KingVoid
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by KingVoid »

I reckon Sainz will be Ferrari’s Bottas. I would say that compared to Bottas, Sainz is a tad slower on Saturday but a bit more racy on Sunday. The margins are relatively small though.

Now the question becomes whether Leclerc can develop into a driver who can beat Hamilton.

User avatar
DOLOMITE
Posts: 1618
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:07 am

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by DOLOMITE »

Well congrats to Carlos. Earned the "old fashioned" way of toiling away in second tier cars and impressing team bosses with his results and attitude. I can't see him beating a nascent Leclerc overall, but he will be there or thereabouts and it would be great to see him take some wins.
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss

pokerman
Posts: 35612
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:I reckon Sainz will be Ferrari’s Bottas. I would say that compared to Bottas, Sainz is a tad slower on Saturday but a bit more racy on Sunday. The margins are relatively small though.

Now the question becomes whether Leclerc can develop into a driver who can beat Hamilton.
Sainz's qualifying stats are quite poor, I wouldn't rate him any better than Kimi and like you say he's certainly slower than Bottas, but also like you say he's quite good come race day.

He's defimitely been chosen as a #2 otherwise they would have gone for Ricciardo.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 94 (1st)
Pole Positions: 97 (1st)
Podiums: 163 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

Schumacher forever#1
Posts: 2956
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:29 pm

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:I reckon Sainz will be Ferrari’s Bottas. I would say that compared to Bottas, Sainz is a tad slower on Saturday but a bit more racy on Sunday. The margins are relatively small though.

Now the question becomes whether Leclerc can develop into a driver who can beat Hamilton.
Sainz's qualifying stats are quite poor, I wouldn't rate him any better than Kimi and like you say he's certainly slower than Bottas, but also like you say he's quite good come race day.

He's defimitely been chosen as a #2 otherwise they would have gone for Ricciardo.
I would pick Sainz over Bottas every day of the week.

Apart from Saturday....
"Always believe you will become the best, but never believe you have done so"

pokerman
Posts: 35612
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by pokerman »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:I reckon Sainz will be Ferrari’s Bottas. I would say that compared to Bottas, Sainz is a tad slower on Saturday but a bit more racy on Sunday. The margins are relatively small though.

Now the question becomes whether Leclerc can develop into a driver who can beat Hamilton.
Sainz's qualifying stats are quite poor, I wouldn't rate him any better than Kimi and like you say he's certainly slower than Bottas, but also like you say he's quite good come race day.

He's defimitely been chosen as a #2 otherwise they would have gone for Ricciardo.
I would pick Sainz over Bottas every day of the week.

Apart from Saturday....
In F1 you need to qualify well, Sainz couldn't outqualify a novice, against the big boys there's potential for him to be exposed similar to the likes of Gasly and Albon.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 94 (1st)
Pole Positions: 97 (1st)
Podiums: 163 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8227
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:In F1 you need to qualify well, Sainz couldn't outqualify a novice, against the big boys there's potential for him to be exposed similar to the likes of Gasly and Albon.
There's also potential for us to find that Norris is actually a really quick qualifier.

That will become pretty clear in 2021; Leclerc is already looking like one of the truly elite qualifiers, so if Sainz comes anywhere near him he's not a bad qualifier. Similarly, Ricciardo is a known quantity and a very solid benchmark, so how Norris stacks up will provide another level of detail.
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

pokerman
Posts: 35612
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:In F1 you need to qualify well, Sainz couldn't outqualify a novice, against the big boys there's potential for him to be exposed similar to the likes of Gasly and Albon.
There's also potential for us to find that Norris is actually a really quick qualifier.

That will become pretty clear in 2021; Leclerc is already looking like one of the truly elite qualifiers, so if Sainz comes anywhere near him he's not a bad qualifier. Similarly, Ricciardo is a known quantity and a very solid benchmark, so how Norris stacks up will provide another level of detail.
Well there' s a reason why I said novice unless you feel that Norris will not improve from his rookie season.

In respect to Sainz the numbers suggest he will be 3 tenths slower than Leclerc, so far Sainz has only been able to outqualify Kvyat and than was a little more than a tenth, look how Kvyat performed last season.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 94 (1st)
Pole Positions: 97 (1st)
Podiums: 163 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

mikeyg123
Posts: 18026
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:In F1 you need to qualify well, Sainz couldn't outqualify a novice, against the big boys there's potential for him to be exposed similar to the likes of Gasly and Albon.
There's also potential for us to find that Norris is actually a really quick qualifier.

That will become pretty clear in 2021; Leclerc is already looking like one of the truly elite qualifiers, so if Sainz comes anywhere near him he's not a bad qualifier. Similarly, Ricciardo is a known quantity and a very solid benchmark, so how Norris stacks up will provide another level of detail.
Well there' s a reason why I said novice unless you feel that Norris will not improve from his rookie season.

In respect to Sainz the numbers suggest he will be 3 tenths slower than Leclerc, so far Sainz has only been able to outqualify Kvyat and than was a little more than a tenth, look how Kvyat performed last season.
Eek, that's a big gap to overcome. Out of interest what route are you using from Leclerc to Sainz? There's a few but none are really perfect.

pokerman
Posts: 35612
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:In F1 you need to qualify well, Sainz couldn't outqualify a novice, against the big boys there's potential for him to be exposed similar to the likes of Gasly and Albon.
There's also potential for us to find that Norris is actually a really quick qualifier.

That will become pretty clear in 2021; Leclerc is already looking like one of the truly elite qualifiers, so if Sainz comes anywhere near him he's not a bad qualifier. Similarly, Ricciardo is a known quantity and a very solid benchmark, so how Norris stacks up will provide another level of detail.
Well there' s a reason why I said novice unless you feel that Norris will not improve from his rookie season.

In respect to Sainz the numbers suggest he will be 3 tenths slower than Leclerc, so far Sainz has only been able to outqualify Kvyat and than was a little more than a tenth, look how Kvyat performed last season.
Eek, that's a big gap to overcome. Out of interest what route are you using from Leclerc to Sainz? There's a few but none are really perfect.
Leclerc > Vettel > Kimi > Alonso > Button > Perez > Hulk > Sainz

Then some cross references like

Verstappen > Ricciardo > Hulk > Sainz

and

Hamilton > Button > Perez > Hulk > Ricciardo > Verstappen

and

Button > Hamilton > Alonso > Button > Perez > Hulk > Sainz

This creates 2 different reference points creating a very similar result in respect to Sainz.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 94 (1st)
Pole Positions: 97 (1st)
Podiums: 163 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

mikeyg123
Posts: 18026
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:In F1 you need to qualify well, Sainz couldn't outqualify a novice, against the big boys there's potential for him to be exposed similar to the likes of Gasly and Albon.
There's also potential for us to find that Norris is actually a really quick qualifier.

That will become pretty clear in 2021; Leclerc is already looking like one of the truly elite qualifiers, so if Sainz comes anywhere near him he's not a bad qualifier. Similarly, Ricciardo is a known quantity and a very solid benchmark, so how Norris stacks up will provide another level of detail.
Well there' s a reason why I said novice unless you feel that Norris will not improve from his rookie season.

In respect to Sainz the numbers suggest he will be 3 tenths slower than Leclerc, so far Sainz has only been able to outqualify Kvyat and than was a little more than a tenth, look how Kvyat performed last season.
Eek, that's a big gap to overcome. Out of interest what route are you using from Leclerc to Sainz? There's a few but none are really perfect.
Leclerc > Vettel > Kimi > Alonso > Button > Perez > Hulk > Sainz

Then some cross references like

Verstappen > Ricciardo > Hulk > Sainz

and

Hamilton > Button > Perez > Hulk > Ricciardo > Verstappen

and

Button > Hamilton > Alonso > Button > Perez > Hulk > Sainz

This creates 2 different reference points creating a very similar result in respect to Sainz.
You could do Leclerec > Vettel > Ricciardo > Hulkenberg > Sainz

pokerman
Posts: 35612
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote: There's also potential for us to find that Norris is actually a really quick qualifier.

That will become pretty clear in 2021; Leclerc is already looking like one of the truly elite qualifiers, so if Sainz comes anywhere near him he's not a bad qualifier. Similarly, Ricciardo is a known quantity and a very solid benchmark, so how Norris stacks up will provide another level of detail.
Well there' s a reason why I said novice unless you feel that Norris will not improve from his rookie season.

In respect to Sainz the numbers suggest he will be 3 tenths slower than Leclerc, so far Sainz has only been able to outqualify Kvyat and than was a little more than a tenth, look how Kvyat performed last season.
Eek, that's a big gap to overcome. Out of interest what route are you using from Leclerc to Sainz? There's a few but none are really perfect.
Leclerc > Vettel > Kimi > Alonso > Button > Perez > Hulk > Sainz

Then some cross references like

Verstappen > Ricciardo > Hulk > Sainz

and

Hamilton > Button > Perez > Hulk > Ricciardo > Verstappen

and

Button > Hamilton > Alonso > Button > Perez > Hulk > Sainz

This creates 2 different reference points creating a very similar result in respect to Sainz.
You could do Leclerec > Vettel > Ricciardo > Hulkenberg > Sainz
What happened in 2014 makes no sense to everything I've seen since, it doesn't correlate to anything else.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 94 (1st)
Pole Positions: 97 (1st)
Podiums: 163 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

pokerman
Posts: 35612
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:In F1 you need to qualify well, Sainz couldn't outqualify a novice, against the big boys there's potential for him to be exposed similar to the likes of Gasly and Albon.
There's also potential for us to find that Norris is actually a really quick qualifier.

That will become pretty clear in 2021; Leclerc is already looking like one of the truly elite qualifiers, so if Sainz comes anywhere near him he's not a bad qualifier. Similarly, Ricciardo is a known quantity and a very solid benchmark, so how Norris stacks up will provide another level of detail.
Well there' s a reason why I said novice unless you feel that Norris will not improve from his rookie season.

In respect to Sainz the numbers suggest he will be 3 tenths slower than Leclerc, so far Sainz has only been able to outqualify Kvyat and than was a little more than a tenth, look how Kvyat performed last season.
Eek, that's a big gap to overcome. Out of interest what route are you using from Leclerc to Sainz? There's a few but none are really perfect.
In a more simplistic way Sainz went to Renault and got beat by the Hulk by 0.15s, Ricciardo then joined a year later and beat the Hulk by 0.11s, that's a 0.26s gap between Ricciardo and Sainz.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 94 (1st)
Pole Positions: 97 (1st)
Podiums: 163 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

mikeyg123
Posts: 18026
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote: Well there' s a reason why I said novice unless you feel that Norris will not improve from his rookie season.

In respect to Sainz the numbers suggest he will be 3 tenths slower than Leclerc, so far Sainz has only been able to outqualify Kvyat and than was a little more than a tenth, look how Kvyat performed last season.
Eek, that's a big gap to overcome. Out of interest what route are you using from Leclerc to Sainz? There's a few but none are really perfect.
Leclerc > Vettel > Kimi > Alonso > Button > Perez > Hulk > Sainz

Then some cross references like

Verstappen > Ricciardo > Hulk > Sainz

and

Hamilton > Button > Perez > Hulk > Ricciardo > Verstappen

and

Button > Hamilton > Alonso > Button > Perez > Hulk > Sainz

This creates 2 different reference points creating a very similar result in respect to Sainz.
You could do Leclerec > Vettel > Ricciardo > Hulkenberg > Sainz
What happened in 2014 makes no sense to everything I've seen since, it doesn't correlate to anything else.
What throws it out of wack? What I mean is if it puts Hulk at say Hulkenberg level then what disproves that?

pokerman
Posts: 35612
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote: Eek, that's a big gap to overcome. Out of interest what route are you using from Leclerc to Sainz? There's a few but none are really perfect.
Leclerc > Vettel > Kimi > Alonso > Button > Perez > Hulk > Sainz

Then some cross references like

Verstappen > Ricciardo > Hulk > Sainz

and

Hamilton > Button > Perez > Hulk > Ricciardo > Verstappen

and

Button > Hamilton > Alonso > Button > Perez > Hulk > Sainz

This creates 2 different reference points creating a very similar result in respect to Sainz.
You could do Leclerec > Vettel > Ricciardo > Hulkenberg > Sainz
What happened in 2014 makes no sense to everything I've seen since, it doesn't correlate to anything else.
What throws it out of wack? What I mean is if it puts Hulk at say Hulkenberg level then what disproves that?
In respect to the Hulk it would make him better than Vettel along with Ocon, Verstappen would be 0.25s quicker than Leclerc and 0.33s faster than Vettel.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 94 (1st)
Pole Positions: 97 (1st)
Podiums: 163 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8227
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:Leclerc > Vettel > Kimi > Alonso > Button > Perez > Hulk > Sainz

Then some cross references like

Verstappen > Ricciardo > Hulk > Sainz

and

Hamilton > Button > Perez > Hulk > Ricciardo > Verstappen

and

Button > Hamilton > Alonso > Button > Perez > Hulk > Sainz

This creates 2 different reference points creating a very similar result in respect to Sainz.
You could do Leclerec > Vettel > Ricciardo > Hulkenberg > Sainz
What happened in 2014 makes no sense to everything I've seen since, it doesn't correlate to anything else.
If you're willing to throw 2014 out you have to put a question mark over any one-year comparison. I personally am not a believer in the Hulk / Sainz link; Sainz was never comfortable in the team and knew he was leaving before the end of the season.
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

pokerman
Posts: 35612
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:Leclerc > Vettel > Kimi > Alonso > Button > Perez > Hulk > Sainz

Then some cross references like

Verstappen > Ricciardo > Hulk > Sainz

and

Hamilton > Button > Perez > Hulk > Ricciardo > Verstappen

and

Button > Hamilton > Alonso > Button > Perez > Hulk > Sainz

This creates 2 different reference points creating a very similar result in respect to Sainz.
You could do Leclerec > Vettel > Ricciardo > Hulkenberg > Sainz
What happened in 2014 makes no sense to everything I've seen since, it doesn't correlate to anything else.
If you're willing to throw 2014 out you have to put a question mark over any one-year comparison. I personally am not a believer in the Hulk / Sainz link; Sainz was never comfortable in the team and knew he was leaving before the end of the season.
Well you can't sort of magic Sainz as being any better, the only driver he has beat was Kvyat and that was just a little over a tenth, is Kvyat that close to a top driver?
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 94 (1st)
Pole Positions: 97 (1st)
Podiums: 163 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

Schumacher forever#1
Posts: 2956
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:29 pm

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:Leclerc > Vettel > Kimi > Alonso > Button > Perez > Hulk > Sainz

Then some cross references like

Verstappen > Ricciardo > Hulk > Sainz

and

Hamilton > Button > Perez > Hulk > Ricciardo > Verstappen

and

Button > Hamilton > Alonso > Button > Perez > Hulk > Sainz

This creates 2 different reference points creating a very similar result in respect to Sainz.
You could do Leclerec > Vettel > Ricciardo > Hulkenberg > Sainz
What happened in 2014 makes no sense to everything I've seen since, it doesn't correlate to anything else.
If you're willing to throw 2014 out you have to put a question mark over any one-year comparison. I personally am not a believer in the Hulk / Sainz link; Sainz was never comfortable in the team and knew he was leaving before the end of the season.
I agree. There's too much season-on-season variance for me to make any conclusions on cross driver comparisons. I would rather trust my intuition built on watching the last 100 races, rather than end results.
"Always believe you will become the best, but never believe you have done so"

Schumacher forever#1
Posts: 2956
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:29 pm

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:Leclerc > Vettel > Kimi > Alonso > Button > Perez > Hulk > Sainz

Then some cross references like

Verstappen > Ricciardo > Hulk > Sainz

and

Hamilton > Button > Perez > Hulk > Ricciardo > Verstappen

and

Button > Hamilton > Alonso > Button > Perez > Hulk > Sainz

This creates 2 different reference points creating a very similar result in respect to Sainz.
You could do Leclerec > Vettel > Ricciardo > Hulkenberg > Sainz
What happened in 2014 makes no sense to everything I've seen since, it doesn't correlate to anything else.
If you're willing to throw 2014 out you have to put a question mark over any one-year comparison. I personally am not a believer in the Hulk / Sainz link; Sainz was never comfortable in the team and knew he was leaving before the end of the season.
Well you can't sort of magic Sainz as being any better, the only driver he has beat was Kvyat and that was just a little over a tenth, is Kvyat that close to a top driver?
Kvyat is no slouch. Let's not forget he was promoted to Red Bull for a period.
"Always believe you will become the best, but never believe you have done so"

KingVoid
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by KingVoid »

What I find interesting about the 2014 gap between Vettel and Ricciardo is that it becomes significantly smaller once you take wet qualifying sessions into account. I believe that the gap shrinks to 0.060s which is more akin to what you’d expect.

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8227
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:Well you can't sort of magic Sainz as being any better, the only driver he has beat was Kvyat and that was just a little over a tenth, is Kvyat that close to a top driver?
He destroyed Kvyat. He only out-qualified him by a little over a tenth, but qualifying isn't the be-all and end-all.

That said, my personal belief is that Sainz is roughly equal to Hulk. A tenth and a half behind him on raw pace just doesn't pass the eye test to me.
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

User avatar
Invade
Posts: 3221
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: The Official Carlos Sainz Jr. Thread

Post by Invade »

The more I think about the Sainz move to Ferrari the more I like it for both him and Leclerc (and Ferrari). Sainz has already demonstrated long stretches of quite uncanny race consistency and an excellent ability to manage his race and cash in. I think he could teach Leclerc quite a lot on that front. In return, Sainz can get schooled in the art of speed and learn plenty in return. I believe the Ferrari pairing is strong and also very complementary in this regard. We know that Charles has blistering pace and can win races, and I'm sure Sainz has the ability to win races himself and be a model of consistency for Ferrari in the races without quite having the explosive dynamism of Leclerc, who will be Ferrari's leading driver.

Post Reply