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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:30 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I don't see the issue with what Mercedes did with Hamilton. He was giving it everything when Bottas had had his 2nd stop. Despite this, Hamilton was nearly as fast as Bottas. Implying he seriously was puc=shing. In all that traffic, although he was faster than Vettel at this stage, I seriously doubt he could have kept Vettel behind given he couldn't get past when he was significantly quicker. If Hamilton hadn't pitted, Ferrari's speed almost certainly will have got Vettel by. I think Mercedes gave Hamilton the best oppertunity of 2nd. I know Bottas will have had to get by Hamilton, but Hamilton's tyres will not have had the performence he was showing for long. and i feel there will have been orders to let Bottas by anyway for once as he will have been quicker.

I may be in the minority, but I think mercedes were right with what they did, but Hamilton couldn't pull it off. Don't think this is anything to do with giving Bottas a win. He deserved this and would have got it anyway given how bad Hamilton's tyres will have been at the end. He has managed his tyres so well in the past, but i'm pretty sure they will have been well past it several laps from the end.


What makes you think Hamilton was about to start losing a lot of time? What evidence are you using to come to that conclusion ?

because he said his tyres were a lot worse when he pitted?? At least it sounded like that. I think he had taken the best out of them. They would still be decent for most of the race, but i think Mercedes only pitted because they knew vettel would likely get him anyway, and this will have given him a better chance of getting by him plus fastest lap. Still don't see the issue with what they did.


Vettel wasn't catching when he pitted so at that point the tyres can't have been too bad.

Look, he pits and he almost certainly finishes third with a slight chance of second. He stays out and he may even win with worse case being 3rd place. In any normal circumstance you stay out.

Hamilton always says his tyres are gone. Mercedes usually take it with a big pinch of salt.


I read on the skysports live feed that Hamilton told Mercedes his tyres aren't dropping off when they told him to pit. I really can't see Vettel catching Hamilton but like you say you stay out anyway.

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2018: 12th place

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Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:31 am 
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Invade wrote:
Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I don't see the issue with what Mercedes did with Hamilton. He was giving it everything when Bottas had had his 2nd stop. Despite this, Hamilton was nearly as fast as Bottas. Implying he seriously was pushing. In all that traffic, although he was faster than Vettel at this stage, I seriously doubt he could have kept Vettel behind given he couldn't get past when he was significantly quicker. If Hamilton hadn't pitted, Ferrari's speed almost certainly will have got Vettel by. I think Mercedes gave Hamilton the best oppertunity of 2nd. I know Bottas will have had to get by Hamilton, but Hamilton's tyres will not have had the performance he was showing for long. and i feel there will have been orders to let Bottas by anyway for once as he will have been quicker.

I may be in the minority, but I think mercedes were right with what they did, but Hamilton couldn't pull it off. Don't think this is anything to do with giving Bottas a win. He deserved this and would have got it anyway given how bad Hamilton's tyres will have been at the end. He has managed his tyres so well in the past, but i'm pretty sure they will have been well past it several laps from the end.


Did you watch a different race?

Hamilton was still pulling away from Vettel when they pitted Hamilton. He needed to drop like a stone to for Vettel to get him and Vettels tyres would also be going off. His tyres were finished by the end as he was on softs.

Hamilton nearly as fast as Bottas? He was 9 seconds quicker in the second stint. But he had 5 lap fresher tyres. The gap went from 23 to 14 seconds.

Hamilton couldn’t pull it off? His times never dropped off at all. I don’t see any evidence for that.



I'm pretty sure he was referring to Ham keeping pace with Bottas on well used mediums after Bottas' second pitstop.

Yea

Edit, just realised i have replied to you Invade, but this reply is to Johnson.



Yes, i know i'm writing a lot about it, but if you it is said that i have not watched the race, my post needs to be read.

I admitted he was faster than Vettel at this stage when he was seriously pushing. Look at the bold part...

I also said that Hamilton was nearly as fast as Bottas despite Bottas having just pitted. But this was when Hamilton was pushing hard. He will not have kept his tyres in great shape until the end doing this. If he didn't do this (which he likely did as he was going to pit), i think vettel will have caught him slowly and got him in the end. If Hamilton pushed hard, it think his tyres will have been bad enough at the end that vettel could have got him anyway. I can't be certain, but i think it was very likely. It does seems my post has been misunderstood.

As people have mentioned to me before. When you are comfortably leading and know you are safe, is there any need to push. I don't think we can say there was proof Hamilton was faster this weekend in any way overall.

Hamilton not pulling it off. What i mean by that is he couldn't get past Vettel despite being on significently better tyres.

I think you have been a bit unreasonable towards my post.


Last edited by TheGiantHogweed on Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:32 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I don't see the issue with what Mercedes did with Hamilton. He was giving it everything when Bottas had had his 2nd stop. Despite this, Hamilton was nearly as fast as Bottas. Implying he seriously was pushing. In all that traffic, although he was faster than Vettel at this stage, I seriously doubt he could have kept Vettel behind given he couldn't get past when he was significantly quicker. If Hamilton hadn't pitted, Ferrari's speed almost certainly will have got Vettel by. I think Mercedes gave Hamilton the best oppertunity of 2nd. I know Bottas will have had to get by Hamilton, but Hamilton's tyres will not have had the performance he was showing for long. and i feel there will have been orders to let Bottas by anyway for once as he will have been quicker.

I may be in the minority, but I think mercedes were right with what they did, but Hamilton couldn't pull it off. Don't think this is anything to do with giving Bottas a win. He deserved this and would have got it anyway given how bad Hamilton's tyres will have been at the end. He has managed his tyres so well in the past, but i'm pretty sure they will have been well past it several laps from the end.


Did you watch a different race?

Hamilton was still pulling away from Vettel when they pitted Hamilton. He needed to drop like a stone to for Vettel to get him and Vettels tyres would also be going off. His tyres were finished by the end as he was on softs.

Hamilton nearly as fast as Bottas? He was 9 seconds quicker in the second stint. But he had 5 lap fresher tyres. The gap went from 23 to 14 seconds.

Hamilton couldn’t pull it off? His times never dropped off at all. I don’t see any evidence for that.


I'm pretty sure he was referring to Ham keeping pace with Bottas on well used mediums after Bottas' second pitstop.

The fact is that, with 10 laps to go, Bottas wasn't catching him very quickly. He was only gaining about 3 tenths per lap and was 8 seconds behind. I think Hamilton would have dropped off towards the end and that Valteri would have caught up but I am far from declaring that he would have overtaken Lewis before the end of the race. It's a difficult track to overtake at and Valteri's tires would be far from fresh by the end.

Regardless of what happened between Lewis and Valteri; the main point that TheGiantHogweed made that I dispute is the point about Vettel. There is absolutely no reason to believe that Vettel would have beaten Hamilton had Lewis stayed out. Lewis was 18 seconds in front of Seb and the gap was growing with just 10 laps to go. No way was Seb going to get him.


Indeed - I agree with that. The main question for me is: would Bottas have overtaken Hamilton. That's tough to call, in my view. I can't envisage that Seb would have hauled in Lewis.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:34 am 
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Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That's possible but strange they throw away a 1-2 finish.

As I imply in my post above, where is the confirmation Hamilton could have held 2nd? Mercedes will have ordered him to allow Bottas by due to the speed difference due to tyres by the end IMO. And Vettel's speed was so much faster on the straights that i am certain he will have got Hamilton too. This was the best chance Hamilton was given to get Vettel IMO, and he couldn't despite being so much faster. I don't know how people are expecting to hold Vettel back at the end when he was ona 1 stop. The Ferrari is just so quick that on the straight, surely Vettel would fly by?


How do you know Vettel was going to catch Hamilton? , Bottas or Vettel wasnt making in roads into the gap and Ferrari isn't as good on its tyres.

Ferrari isn't as good on old tyres. Hamilton couldn't get by Vettel when he was on brand new super softs vs vettel on older mediums. I just think that Hamilton trying as hard as he did (he even said he was giving it everything) will have resulted in vettel catching him and having far better tyre life at the end. But then i guess it could have been the case that hamilton didn't give it everything if he knew he wasn't pitting.


You say.. Ferrari isn’t so good on old tyres? It’s impossible to overtake?

So how was Vettel on old softs going to overtake Hamilton, ignoring the fact he had to close 15 seconds in 13 laps.

I should have made it clear that it was just trying to highlight that you had said they are not as good on old tyres.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:53 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Invade wrote:
Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I don't see the issue with what Mercedes did with Hamilton. He was giving it everything when Bottas had had his 2nd stop. Despite this, Hamilton was nearly as fast as Bottas. Implying he seriously was pushing. In all that traffic, although he was faster than Vettel at this stage, I seriously doubt he could have kept Vettel behind given he couldn't get past when he was significantly quicker. If Hamilton hadn't pitted, Ferrari's speed almost certainly will have got Vettel by. I think Mercedes gave Hamilton the best oppertunity of 2nd. I know Bottas will have had to get by Hamilton, but Hamilton's tyres will not have had the performance he was showing for long. and i feel there will have been orders to let Bottas by anyway for once as he will have been quicker.

I may be in the minority, but I think mercedes were right with what they did, but Hamilton couldn't pull it off. Don't think this is anything to do with giving Bottas a win. He deserved this and would have got it anyway given how bad Hamilton's tyres will have been at the end. He has managed his tyres so well in the past, but i'm pretty sure they will have been well past it several laps from the end.


Did you watch a different race?

Hamilton was still pulling away from Vettel when they pitted Hamilton. He needed to drop like a stone to for Vettel to get him and Vettels tyres would also be going off. His tyres were finished by the end as he was on softs.

Hamilton nearly as fast as Bottas? He was 9 seconds quicker in the second stint. But he had 5 lap fresher tyres. The gap went from 23 to 14 seconds.

Hamilton couldn’t pull it off? His times never dropped off at all. I don’t see any evidence for that.



I'm pretty sure he was referring to Ham keeping pace with Bottas on well used mediums after Bottas' second pitstop.

Yea

Edit, just realised i have replied to you Invade, but this reply is to Johnson.



Yes, i know i'm writing a lot about it, but if you it is said that i have not watched the race, my post needs to be read.

I admitted he was faster than Vettel at this stage when he was seriously pushing. Look at the bold part...

I also said that Hamilton was nearly as fast as Bottas despite Bottas having just pitted. But this was when Hamilton was pushing hard. He will not have kept his tyres in great shape until the end doing this. If he didn't do this (which he likely did as he was going to pit), i think vettel will have caught him slowly and got him in the end. If Hamilton pushed hard, it think his tyres will have been bad enough at the end that vettel could have got him anyway. I can't be certain, but i think it was very likely. It does seems my post has been misunderstood.

As people have mentioned to me before. When you are comfortably leading and know you are safe, is there any need to push. I don't think we can say there was proof Hamilton was faster this weekend in any way overall.

Hamilton not pulling it off. What i mean by that is he couldn't get past Vettel despite being on significently better tyres.

I think you have been a bit unreasonable towards my post.


That was because Bottas was surprisingly slow after his final pit stop. His usual bad stint per race maybe or he just wasn’t that quick this race.

There is no evidence that Hamiltons tyres would go off. He took his softs that had done qualifying 21 laps. That’s 22-25 laps. He needed 32 laps on mediums with half the fuel load. That’s kind of a no brainier to make that. His 2nd stint on the mediums was shorter than his first stint on softs.

The cars that 1 stopped the medium made it home fine without falling off the cliff.

Exactly, Hamilton couldn’t pass Vettel so how would Bottas/Vettel have passed Hamilton?

There was clearly no reason to pit Hamilton, that’s clear to everybody. I can’t see why you ignore that just because you are a Bottas fan. Allison himself said he was pitted to avoid the cars fighting on track at the end.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:02 am 
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Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Invade wrote:
Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I don't see the issue with what Mercedes did with Hamilton. He was giving it everything when Bottas had had his 2nd stop. Despite this, Hamilton was nearly as fast as Bottas. Implying he seriously was pushing. In all that traffic, although he was faster than Vettel at this stage, I seriously doubt he could have kept Vettel behind given he couldn't get past when he was significantly quicker. If Hamilton hadn't pitted, Ferrari's speed almost certainly will have got Vettel by. I think Mercedes gave Hamilton the best oppertunity of 2nd. I know Bottas will have had to get by Hamilton, but Hamilton's tyres will not have had the performance he was showing for long. and i feel there will have been orders to let Bottas by anyway for once as he will have been quicker.

I may be in the minority, but I think mercedes were right with what they did, but Hamilton couldn't pull it off. Don't think this is anything to do with giving Bottas a win. He deserved this and would have got it anyway given how bad Hamilton's tyres will have been at the end. He has managed his tyres so well in the past, but i'm pretty sure they will have been well past it several laps from the end.


Did you watch a different race?

Hamilton was still pulling away from Vettel when they pitted Hamilton. He needed to drop like a stone to for Vettel to get him and Vettels tyres would also be going off. His tyres were finished by the end as he was on softs.

Hamilton nearly as fast as Bottas? He was 9 seconds quicker in the second stint. But he had 5 lap fresher tyres. The gap went from 23 to 14 seconds.

Hamilton couldn’t pull it off? His times never dropped off at all. I don’t see any evidence for that.



I'm pretty sure he was referring to Ham keeping pace with Bottas on well used mediums after Bottas' second pitstop.

Yea

Edit, just realised i have replied to you Invade, but this reply is to Johnson.



Yes, i know i'm writing a lot about it, but if you it is said that i have not watched the race, my post needs to be read.

I admitted he was faster than Vettel at this stage when he was seriously pushing. Look at the bold part...

I also said that Hamilton was nearly as fast as Bottas despite Bottas having just pitted. But this was when Hamilton was pushing hard. He will not have kept his tyres in great shape until the end doing this. If he didn't do this (which he likely did as he was going to pit), i think vettel will have caught him slowly and got him in the end. If Hamilton pushed hard, it think his tyres will have been bad enough at the end that vettel could have got him anyway. I can't be certain, but i think it was very likely. It does seems my post has been misunderstood.

As people have mentioned to me before. When you are comfortably leading and know you are safe, is there any need to push. I don't think we can say there was proof Hamilton was faster this weekend in any way overall.

Hamilton not pulling it off. What i mean by that is he couldn't get past Vettel despite being on significently better tyres.

I think you have been a bit unreasonable towards my post.


That was because Bottas was surprisingly slow after his final pit stop. His usual bad stint per race maybe or he just wasn’t that quick this race.

There is no evidence that Hamiltons tyres would go off. He took his softs that had done qualifying 21 laps. That’s 22-25 laps. He needed 32 laps on mediums with half the fuel load. That’s kind of a no brainier to make that. His 2nd stint on the mediums was shorter than his first stint on softs.

The cars that 1 stopped the medium made it home fine without falling off the cliff.

Exactly, Hamilton couldn’t pass Vettel so how would Bottas/Vettel have passed Hamilton?


Bottas did have a lot traffic to clear after he pitted. But after that since he had been told that hamilton would certainly box, I don't know why he had to try that hard really.

I thought i had said this. I think it is very possible that Bottas will have had enough speed over Hamilton for Mercedes to make Hamilton let him by - if that would happen. Regarding Vettel, I think he certainly will have caught up in the end. And the speed is so quick, that surely it would be likely he would pass? Hamilton got within half a second of Vettel before the start of the main straight. The Ferrari's speed keeps him ahead without DRS. I think Vettel would fly by once he had DRS. Hamilton looked really quick to start with on his 2nd stint, but I think he was only this quick because he knew he was pitting again. Otherwise i think vettel will have caught and used the speed advantage to get by. Guess we won't agree on that.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:07 am 
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Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Invade wrote:
Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I don't see the issue with what Mercedes did with Hamilton. He was giving it everything when Bottas had had his 2nd stop. Despite this, Hamilton was nearly as fast as Bottas. Implying he seriously was pushing. In all that traffic, although he was faster than Vettel at this stage, I seriously doubt he could have kept Vettel behind given he couldn't get past when he was significantly quicker. If Hamilton hadn't pitted, Ferrari's speed almost certainly will have got Vettel by. I think Mercedes gave Hamilton the best oppertunity of 2nd. I know Bottas will have had to get by Hamilton, but Hamilton's tyres will not have had the performance he was showing for long. and i feel there will have been orders to let Bottas by anyway for once as he will have been quicker.

I may be in the minority, but I think mercedes were right with what they did, but Hamilton couldn't pull it off. Don't think this is anything to do with giving Bottas a win. He deserved this and would have got it anyway given how bad Hamilton's tyres will have been at the end. He has managed his tyres so well in the past, but i'm pretty sure they will have been well past it several laps from the end.


Did you watch a different race?

Hamilton was still pulling away from Vettel when they pitted Hamilton. He needed to drop like a stone to for Vettel to get him and Vettels tyres would also be going off. His tyres were finished by the end as he was on softs.

Hamilton nearly as fast as Bottas? He was 9 seconds quicker in the second stint. But he had 5 lap fresher tyres. The gap went from 23 to 14 seconds.

Hamilton couldn’t pull it off? His times never dropped off at all. I don’t see any evidence for that.



I'm pretty sure he was referring to Ham keeping pace with Bottas on well used mediums after Bottas' second pitstop.

Yea

Edit, just realised i have replied to you Invade, but this reply is to Johnson.



Yes, i know i'm writing a lot about it, but if you it is said that i have not watched the race, my post needs to be read.

I admitted he was faster than Vettel at this stage when he was seriously pushing. Look at the bold part...

I also said that Hamilton was nearly as fast as Bottas despite Bottas having just pitted. But this was when Hamilton was pushing hard. He will not have kept his tyres in great shape until the end doing this. If he didn't do this (which he likely did as he was going to pit), i think vettel will have caught him slowly and got him in the end. If Hamilton pushed hard, it think his tyres will have been bad enough at the end that vettel could have got him anyway. I can't be certain, but i think it was very likely. It does seems my post has been misunderstood.

As people have mentioned to me before. When you are comfortably leading and know you are safe, is there any need to push. I don't think we can say there was proof Hamilton was faster this weekend in any way overall.

Hamilton not pulling it off. What i mean by that is he couldn't get past Vettel despite being on significently better tyres.

I think you have been a bit unreasonable towards my post.


That was because Bottas was surprisingly slow after his final pit stop. His usual bad stint per race maybe or he just wasn’t that quick this race.

There is no evidence that Hamiltons tyres would go off. He took his softs that had done qualifying 21 laps. That’s 22-25 laps. He needed 32 laps on mediums with half the fuel load. That’s kind of a no brainier to make that. His 2nd stint on the mediums was shorter than his first stint on softs.

The cars that 1 stopped the medium made it home fine without falling off the cliff.

Exactly, Hamilton couldn’t pass Vettel so how would Bottas/Vettel have passed Hamilton?

There was clearly no reason to pit Hamilton, that’s clear to everybody. I can’t see why you ignore that just because you are a Bottas fan. Allison himself said he was pitted to avoid the cars fighting on track at the end.

"he just wasn’t that quick this race", come on now he controlled the race perfectly and was just as quick as he needed to be. I bet you wouldn't be saying that if the car had had 44 written on it.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:09 am 
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You’re completely ignoring the clear facts:

-Vettel was not catching Hamilton even though he had a big tyre advantage
- Taking the medium 31-32 laps wasn’t a long way, they had taken softs 25 laps already
- the drivers that took the medium that far did not fall off the cliff. Mediums were fine for 30 laps.
- Vettel had 10 laps to close 15 seconds and he wasn’t even catching him yet.
-Vettel himself was slow at the end of the race on his worn softs.

That’s the evidence that Vettel wouldn’t get Hamilton. Please present the counter arguments of why Vettel would have caught him let alone be able to pass.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:17 am 
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Johnson wrote:
You’re completely ignoring the clear facts:

-Vettel was not catching Hamilton even though he had a big tyre advantage
- Taking the medium 31-32 laps wasn’t a long way, they had taken softs 25 laps already
- the drivers that took the medium that far did not fall off the cliff. Mediums were fine for 30 laps.
- Vettel had 10 laps to close 15 seconds and he wasn’t even catching him yet.
-Vettel himself was slow at the end of the race on his worn softs.

That’s the evidence that Vettel wouldn’t get Hamilton. Please present the counter arguments of why Vettel would have caught him let alone be able to pass.


I don't think we will ever settle on this. Hamilton was giving it everything just before he pitted. He likely won't have done this if he wasn't pitting. So in that case, i think Vettel will have slowly caught him up... You don't have to agree, but that is what i think.

I think it is a point that Hamilton will have been able to bring his car to the end on these tyres easily, but vettel's tyres will have been quicker initially. And this is where i think he will have had a good chance to close in and get the overtake done earlier. Then as we saw, I don't think Hamilton will have been able to get by. But I only think Vettel will have been able to do this due to his initial tyre advantage and straight line speed.

I can pretty much guarantee we won't agree so was there any point me posting this? It is an opinion. Even what you have written isn't evidence. Nobody can conclude what may or may not have happened...


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:23 am 
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Covalent wrote:



"he just wasn’t that quick this race", come on now he controlled the race perfectly and was just as quick as he needed to be. I bet you wouldn't be saying that if the car had had 44 written on it.


I said maybe. You can only compare him to Hamilton who was stuck behind Vettel in stint 1. Mercedes was clearly the quickest car.

By stint 2, Hamilton was 23 seconds behind but had 5 lap fresher tyres. That closed down to 13 by the time Bottas pits. Hamilton took all the pain of running a 1 stop (staying out on old tyres while rivals are on new tyres) and then 2 stopped.

Genuinely, how quick was either Mercedes driver? I don’t know. I know the Bottas-Mercedes package was significantly quicker than Vettel-Ferrari, that’s all I know.

Bottas won the race by out qualifying Hamilton. A great lap and congrats to him for the win and beating Lewis is qualifying but the race pace comparison, there simply isn’t a great comparison to say how quick Bottas was today. That’s the importance of qualifying and track position and why Ferrari would have won the race if they were 1-2 after the first corners too.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:24 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Invade wrote:
Johnson wrote:

Did you watch a different race?

Hamilton was still pulling away from Vettel when they pitted Hamilton. He needed to drop like a stone to for Vettel to get him and Vettels tyres would also be going off. His tyres were finished by the end as he was on softs.

Hamilton nearly as fast as Bottas? He was 9 seconds quicker in the second stint. But he had 5 lap fresher tyres. The gap went from 23 to 14 seconds.

Hamilton couldn’t pull it off? His times never dropped off at all. I don’t see any evidence for that.



I'm pretty sure he was referring to Ham keeping pace with Bottas on well used mediums after Bottas' second pitstop.

Yea

Edit, just realised i have replied to you Invade, but this reply is to Johnson.



Yes, i know i'm writing a lot about it, but if you it is said that i have not watched the race, my post needs to be read.

I admitted he was faster than Vettel at this stage when he was seriously pushing. Look at the bold part...

I also said that Hamilton was nearly as fast as Bottas despite Bottas having just pitted. But this was when Hamilton was pushing hard. He will not have kept his tyres in great shape until the end doing this. If he didn't do this (which he likely did as he was going to pit), i think vettel will have caught him slowly and got him in the end. If Hamilton pushed hard, it think his tyres will have been bad enough at the end that vettel could have got him anyway. I can't be certain, but i think it was very likely. It does seems my post has been misunderstood.

As people have mentioned to me before. When you are comfortably leading and know you are safe, is there any need to push. I don't think we can say there was proof Hamilton was faster this weekend in any way overall.

Hamilton not pulling it off. What i mean by that is he couldn't get past Vettel despite being on significently better tyres.

I think you have been a bit unreasonable towards my post.


That was because Bottas was surprisingly slow after his final pit stop. His usual bad stint per race maybe or he just wasn’t that quick this race.

There is no evidence that Hamiltons tyres would go off. He took his softs that had done qualifying 21 laps. That’s 22-25 laps. He needed 32 laps on mediums with half the fuel load. That’s kind of a no brainier to make that. His 2nd stint on the mediums was shorter than his first stint on softs.

The cars that 1 stopped the medium made it home fine without falling off the cliff.

Exactly, Hamilton couldn’t pass Vettel so how would Bottas/Vettel have passed Hamilton?

There was clearly no reason to pit Hamilton, that’s clear to everybody. I can’t see why you ignore that just because you are a Bottas fan. Allison himself said he was pitted to avoid the cars fighting on track at the end.

"he just wasn’t that quick this race", come on now he controlled the race perfectly and was just as quick as he needed to be. I bet you wouldn't be saying that if the car had had 44 written on it.


This is something i often notice. When hamilton wins a race, but another driver looks as quick or quicker in certain stints, people often say that as the leader or net leader, they don't really need to give it everything. But wthe other way round, with a lot of people, it almost looks like they are assuming Bottas didn't have the pace. I don't see why he needed to use more than he did. He controlled the race well and initially was far faster than anyone. Very rare for Bottas, but that was effectively like one of Hamilton's very comfortable wins. Probably the best of his career. Hamilton's strategy of a possible one stop may have been more challenging, but if he won due to that, that will have really helped him out. As if he went on an equal strategy to Bottas, it is incredibly unlikely he will have been close for a change.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:27 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
You’re completely ignoring the clear facts:

-Vettel was not catching Hamilton even though he had a big tyre advantage
- Taking the medium 31-32 laps wasn’t a long way, they had taken softs 25 laps already
- the drivers that took the medium that far did not fall off the cliff. Mediums were fine for 30 laps.
- Vettel had 10 laps to close 15 seconds and he wasn’t even catching him yet.
-Vettel himself was slow at the end of the race on his worn softs.

That’s the evidence that Vettel wouldn’t get Hamilton. Please present the counter arguments of why Vettel would have caught him let alone be able to pass.


I don't think we will ever settle on this. Hamilton was giving it everything just before he pitted. He likely won't have done this if he wasn't pitting. So in that case, i think Vettel will have slowly caught him up... You don't have to agree, but that is what i think.

I think it is a point that Hamilton will have been able to bring his car to the end on these tyres easily, but vettel's tyres will have been quicker initially. And this is where i think he will have had a good chance to close in and get the overtake done earlier. Then as we saw, I don't think Hamilton will have been able to get by. But I only think Vettel will have been able to do this due to his initial tyre advantage and straight line speed.

I can pretty much guarantee we won't agree so was there any point me posting this? It is an opinion. Even what you have written isn't evidence. Nobody can conclude what may or may not have happened...


Back up your opinion why, if you want a proper discussion. Just saying because I just think so isn’t worth the effort to discuss it if that’s the best way you can support your argument.

Quicker initially? Vettel had already had his new mediums on 5-6 laps when Hamilton pitted. He wasn’t quick. The Ferrari was slow today, stint 2, Vettel on new softs couldn’t even match Bottas on new mediums. It was even slower on the mediums.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:33 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Covalent wrote:



"he just wasn’t that quick this race", come on now he controlled the race perfectly and was just as quick as he needed to be. I bet you wouldn't be saying that if the car had had 44 written on it.


I said maybe. You can only compare him to Hamilton who was stuck behind Vettel in stint 1. Mercedes was clearly the quickest car.

By stint 2, Hamilton was 23 seconds behind but had 5 lap fresher tyres. That closed down to 13 by the time Bottas pits. Hamilton took all the pain of running a 1 stop (staying out on old tyres while rivals are on new tyres) and then 2 stopped.

Genuinely, how quick was either Mercedes driver? I don’t know. I know the Bottas-Mercedes package was significantly quicker than Vettel-Ferrari, that’s all I know.

Bottas won the race by out qualifying Hamilton. A great lap and congrats to him for the win and beating Lewis is qualifying but the race pace comparison, there simply isn’t a great comparison to say how quick Bottas was today. That’s the importance of qualifying and track position and why Ferrari would have won the race if they were 1-2 after the first corners too.

Well you gave him two alternatives, either he had a bad stint or he was just slow. I presented a third, in my view more realistic, alternative.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:34 am 
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Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
You’re completely ignoring the clear facts:

-Vettel was not catching Hamilton even though he had a big tyre advantage
- Taking the medium 31-32 laps wasn’t a long way, they had taken softs 25 laps already
- the drivers that took the medium that far did not fall off the cliff. Mediums were fine for 30 laps.
- Vettel had 10 laps to close 15 seconds and he wasn’t even catching him yet.
-Vettel himself was slow at the end of the race on his worn softs.

That’s the evidence that Vettel wouldn’t get Hamilton. Please present the counter arguments of why Vettel would have caught him let alone be able to pass.


I don't think we will ever settle on this. Hamilton was giving it everything just before he pitted. He likely won't have done this if he wasn't pitting. So in that case, i think Vettel will have slowly caught him up... You don't have to agree, but that is what i think.

I think it is a point that Hamilton will have been able to bring his car to the end on these tyres easily, but vettel's tyres will have been quicker initially. And this is where i think he will have had a good chance to close in and get the overtake done earlier. Then as we saw, I don't think Hamilton will have been able to get by. But I only think Vettel will have been able to do this due to his initial tyre advantage and straight line speed.

I can pretty much guarantee we won't agree so was there any point me posting this? It is an opinion. Even what you have written isn't evidence. Nobody can conclude what may or may not have happened...


Back up your opinion why, if you want a proper discussion. Just saying because I just think so isn’t worth the effort to discuss it if that’s the best way you can support your argument.

Quicker initially? Vettel had already had his new mediums on 5-6 laps when Hamilton pitted. He wasn’t quick. The Ferrari was slow today, stint 2, Vettel on new softs couldn’t even match Bottas on new mediums. It was even slower on the mediums.

I guess this would go against me for Vettel being able to pass Hamilton, but if Vettel was THAT slow and his tyres were worn at the end and Hamilton was on far newer, softer tyres, why couldn't he find some way by in the corners where he had more grip? Leclerc managed this against slower cars while his car wasn't in the best shape. Not everything was done on the straight. Hamilton should have had a massive advantage here surely? If you look at it this way, surely Mercedes expected that hamilton would manage. I was surprised that he kept getting so close but couldn't get by. understanderble on the straights, but he should have managed to get by in a similar way to how leclerc climbed up the field given the tyre advantage he had.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:48 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
You’re completely ignoring the clear facts:

-Vettel was not catching Hamilton even though he had a big tyre advantage
- Taking the medium 31-32 laps wasn’t a long way, they had taken softs 25 laps already
- the drivers that took the medium that far did not fall off the cliff. Mediums were fine for 30 laps.
- Vettel had 10 laps to close 15 seconds and he wasn’t even catching him yet.
-Vettel himself was slow at the end of the race on his worn softs.

That’s the evidence that Vettel wouldn’t get Hamilton. Please present the counter arguments of why Vettel would have caught him let alone be able to pass.


I don't think we will ever settle on this. Hamilton was giving it everything just before he pitted. He likely won't have done this if he wasn't pitting. So in that case, i think Vettel will have slowly caught him up... You don't have to agree, but that is what i think.

I think it is a point that Hamilton will have been able to bring his car to the end on these tyres easily, but vettel's tyres will have been quicker initially. And this is where i think he will have had a good chance to close in and get the overtake done earlier. Then as we saw, I don't think Hamilton will have been able to get by. But I only think Vettel will have been able to do this due to his initial tyre advantage and straight line speed.

I can pretty much guarantee we won't agree so was there any point me posting this? It is an opinion. Even what you have written isn't evidence. Nobody can conclude what may or may not have happened...


Back up your opinion why, if you want a proper discussion. Just saying because I just think so isn’t worth the effort to discuss it if that’s the best way you can support your argument.

Quicker initially? Vettel had already had his new mediums on 5-6 laps when Hamilton pitted. He wasn’t quick. The Ferrari was slow today, stint 2, Vettel on new softs couldn’t even match Bottas on new mediums. It was even slower on the mediums.

I guess this would go against me for Vettel being able to pass Hamilton, but if Vettel was THAT slow and his tyres were worn at the end and Hamilton was on far newer, softer tyres, why couldn't he find some way by in the corners where he had more grip? Leclerc managed this against slower cars while his car wasn't in the best shape. Not everything was done on the straight. Hamilton should have had a massive advantage here surely? If you look at it this way, surely Mercedes expected that hamilton would manage. I was surprised that he kept getting so close but couldn't get by. understanderble on the straights, but he should have managed to get by in a similar way to how leclerc climbed up the field given the tyre advantage he had.


Lets wait for the timing data, nothing to hide in there.

Hamilton did catch Vettel at nearly 2 seconds per lap but by the end Hamiltons softs were also destroyed to by following so close for 5-6 laps.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:52 am 
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JN23 wrote:
A system error on the timing system had the race finish at lap 52, meaning that Perez keep P9. Does that mean no I vestigation for Gasly?

https://twitter.com/fia/status/1183277853129003008?s=19


Both still are under investigation if anyone's interested.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:59 am 
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Re Leclerc driving with a damaged car. Ferrari were asked to put and said they would and then they didn't pit. If true I think that should be a DQ. Leclerc had to hold his mirror on with his hand at one point, which when it fell off nearly hit Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:04 am 
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What has happened with Ricciardo in qualifying? Has anybody kept a close eye on it? He was 6-1 up against Hülkenberg but the lap ten races they are 5-5 making it 11-6 in Ricciardos favour. Have penalties and issues influenced this?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:08 am 
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Mercedes turned a certain 1-2 into a 1-3. I'd love to hear the reasoning.
Even if they did want to give the race to Bottas, they surely didn't have to chuck 2nd place in the toilet in doing so.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:19 am 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
Mercedes turned a certain 1-2 into a 1-3. I'd love to hear the reasoning.
Even if they did want to give the race to Bottas, they surely didn't have to chuck 2nd place in the toilet in doing so.

Allison said they didn’t want to risk the cars fighting on track and taking each other out and risk losing the WCC chance this race. They also wouldn’t want the embarrassment of giving team orders to a 5 time champion to let his team mate through. That always gets a negative backlash and you don’t want those headlines the day you seal a record 6th WCC.

The simply solution, like what Ferrari did to Vettel in Russia (leaving him out to put Leclerc ahead) they pulled a strategy move to secure a safe 1-3 or a possible 1-2 if Lewis could get by Vettel.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:19 am 
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JN23 wrote:
Re Leclerc driving with a damaged car. Ferrari were asked to put and said they would and then they didn't pit. If true I think that should be a DQ. Leclerc had to hold his mirror on with his hand at one point, which when it fell off nearly hit Hamilton.


Some close ups from Leclerc and Hamilton's car being hit with large chunks of debris which broke Hamilton's mirror being shown on the F1 broadcast that Buxton does. As you say, just missing Hamilton.


Last edited by shoot999 on Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:40 am 
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JN23 wrote:
Re Leclerc driving with a damaged car. Ferrari were asked to put and said they would and then they didn't pit. If true I think that should be a DQ. Leclerc had to hold his mirror on with his hand at one point, which when it fell off nearly hit Hamilton.


I don't normally go with the F(errari)IA angle, but the other posters who are upset at the double standards applied to Ferrari in this race are on the money. If Ferrari were asked to pit, rather than just putting up a black flag with all its loaded connotations, this would be a courtesy extended by the race director or whoever. And Ferrari (likely Leclerc himself) repaid them with betrayal.

Again we have a "from now on" moment... to Ferrari, to whoever, the race director should not extend courtesies. They should just enforce the rules.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:46 am 
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da4an1qu1 wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Re Leclerc driving with a damaged car. Ferrari were asked to put and said they would and then they didn't pit. If true I think that should be a DQ. Leclerc had to hold his mirror on with his hand at one point, which when it fell off nearly hit Hamilton.


I don't normally go with the F(errari)IA angle, but the other posters who are upset at the double standards applied to Ferrari in this race are on the money. If Ferrari were asked to pit, rather than just putting up a black flag with all its loaded connotations, this would be a courtesy extended by the race director or whoever. And Ferrari (likely Leclerc himself) repaid them with betrayal.

Again we have a "from now on" moment... to Ferrari, to whoever, the race director should not extend courtesies. They should just enforce the rules.


And justice served. Leclerc penalised 15 seconds. Ricciardo up to P6 and Leclerc down to P7.

https://twitter.com/F1/status/1183316240326184960


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:47 am 
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Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
You’re completely ignoring the clear facts:

-Vettel was not catching Hamilton even though he had a big tyre advantage
- Taking the medium 31-32 laps wasn’t a long way, they had taken softs 25 laps already
- the drivers that took the medium that far did not fall off the cliff. Mediums were fine for 30 laps.
- Vettel had 10 laps to close 15 seconds and he wasn’t even catching him yet.
-Vettel himself was slow at the end of the race on his worn softs.

That’s the evidence that Vettel wouldn’t get Hamilton. Please present the counter arguments of why Vettel would have caught him let alone be able to pass.


I don't think we will ever settle on this. Hamilton was giving it everything just before he pitted. He likely won't have done this if he wasn't pitting. So in that case, i think Vettel will have slowly caught him up... You don't have to agree, but that is what i think.

I think it is a point that Hamilton will have been able to bring his car to the end on these tyres easily, but vettel's tyres will have been quicker initially. And this is where i think he will have had a good chance to close in and get the overtake done earlier. Then as we saw, I don't think Hamilton will have been able to get by. But I only think Vettel will have been able to do this due to his initial tyre advantage and straight line speed.

I can pretty much guarantee we won't agree so was there any point me posting this? It is an opinion. Even what you have written isn't evidence. Nobody can conclude what may or may not have happened...


Back up your opinion why, if you want a proper discussion. Just saying because I just think so isn’t worth the effort to discuss it if that’s the best way you can support your argument.

Quicker initially? Vettel had already had his new mediums on 5-6 laps when Hamilton pitted. He wasn’t quick. The Ferrari was slow today, stint 2, Vettel on new softs couldn’t even match Bottas on new mediums. It was even slower on the mediums.

I guess this would go against me for Vettel being able to pass Hamilton, but if Vettel was THAT slow and his tyres were worn at the end and Hamilton was on far newer, softer tyres, why couldn't he find some way by in the corners where he had more grip? Leclerc managed this against slower cars while his car wasn't in the best shape. Not everything was done on the straight. Hamilton should have had a massive advantage here surely? If you look at it this way, surely Mercedes expected that hamilton would manage. I was surprised that he kept getting so close but couldn't get by. understanderble on the straights, but he should have managed to get by in a similar way to how leclerc climbed up the field given the tyre advantage he had.


Lets wait for the timing data, nothing to hide in there.

Hamilton did catch Vettel at nearly 2 seconds per lap but by the end Hamiltons softs were also destroyed to by following so close for 5-6 laps.


"Wolff explained the team’s decision to pit Hamilton again was partly motivated by the fact the tyres were dropping off very quickly at the end of a stint.

"“Both tyres dropped suddenly. You could see that they were they were pretty robust and then from one lap to the other the drivers felt that there was no grip anymore."

"“Both of the drivers said it and when changed Lewis for the second part he also said, his feedback was that the tyre was losing grip at that stage and would it have been very difficult just to defend against Sebastian. It was never a question with Valtteri because we knew what we were going to do anyway.”"


https://www.racefans.net/2019/10/13/mer ... ttas-past/

I think this heavily backs up several of my points.

they also said that they would not allow this strategy of Hamiltons let him beat Bottas. So some way or other if they had continued with that, Bottas would have got by. And Toto is certainly implying that Vettel likely could have got by had they not done another stint. Even to the point where he is saying that it was Hamilton's feedback that suggested this.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:51 am 
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tootsie323 wrote:
cmax wrote:
Is Lewis carrying damage I wonder?

Lost a wing mirror, apparently

This happened down the back straight.

When LeClerc's front wing finally gave way the debris hit Hamilton's mirror and break it. Could have hit his head.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:51 am 
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Invade wrote:
Interesting new tyre deg graphics. No idea how accurate they are though.


Vettel is on the 2-stopper.

Where do they get this information from.

I call BS.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:52 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Hamilton you idiot, you could have won.

It was Mercedes decision for Bottas to win.


I know that, what I mean is he should take matters into his own hands.

He is a team player.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:55 am 
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Yes that’s much better rather than saying I just think. I’ll pass judgement when I see the times but Hamiltons times never dropped suddenly on the mediums and I didn’t notice that on Bottas watching the live timing.

The question I would put to Wolf is, where did Hamilton finish? Yes, 3rd behind Vettel. So they pitted him to defend against Vettel and finished behind him anyway.

I just re-watched that part of the race and Hamilton was 17.5 ahead with 10 laps to. The last 2 laps of the stint he extended the gap to Vettel, where is the drop off?

The fact they said they won’t allow this strategy- why did they tell Bottas during the race (just after his first stop) that Hamilton is one stopping and you need to pass him on track then? Lots of BS from Mercedes there. Doesn’t add up. Hamilton wasn’t going to be allowed to win (based on Wolfs quotes) and the easiest way to manage that was pitting him, whether he needed it or not. It saved using tea, orders.


Last edited by Johnson on Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:58 am 
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Clarky wrote:
Invade wrote:
Interesting new tyre deg graphics. No idea how accurate they are though.


Vettel is on the 2-stopper.

Where do they get this information from.

I call BS.

Yea i think these graphics are just getting silly now. There is just too much to go wrong with them. It is like when they brought in little multi piece sectors times. as in the first sector had around 20 sections. And i think it was all guesswork that these pieces went green, purple or yellow before the sector was complete. They were used 1 year in the first qualifying session and were never used again. They were so buggy and inaccurate.

I think this thing about tyre life is useless. Even drivers who had been driving for ages behind other cars apparently had a huge percentage of life left in them. I don't believe that at all. These graphics should be removed along with several others. it is just looking way to cluttered. More like a overly detailed video game than reality. I wish there was an option to disable them. The big box on the left with all the drivers is over sized enough IMO. The cars keep driving behind it. I preferred when it was a discrete bar in the middle at the bottom showing 5 drivers at a time and switching every few seconds.

Every time they try and bring more to improve things, it makes it worse. And it isn't just graphics.


Last edited by TheGiantHogweed on Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:01 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Yes that’s much better rather than saying I just think. I’ll pass judgement when I see the times but Hamiltons times never dropped suddenly on the mediums and I didn’t notice that on Bottas watching the live timing.

The question I would put to Wolf is, where did Hamilton finish? Yes, 3rd behind Vettel. So they pitted him to defend against Vettel and finished behind him anyway.

I just re-watched that part of the race and Hamilton was 17.5 ahead with 10 laps to. The last 2 laps of the stint he extended the gap to Vettel, where is the drop off?

The fact they said they won’t allow this strategy- why did they tell Bottas during the race (just after his first stop) that Hamilton is one stopping and you need to pass him on track then? Lots of BS from Mercedes there. Doesn’t add up.

Yea it is strange if that was the case. As after Bottas's 2nd stop, they told him Hamilton definitely would be stopping again.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:01 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Yes that’s much better rather than saying I just think. I’ll pass judgement when I see the times but Hamiltons times never dropped suddenly on the mediums and I didn’t notice that on Bottas watching the live timing.

The question I would put to Wolf is, where did Hamilton finish? Yes, 3rd behind Vettel. So they pitted him to defend against Vettel and finished behind him anyway.

I just re-watched that part of the race and Hamilton was 17.5 ahead with 10 laps to. The last 2 laps of the stint he extended the gap to Vettel, where is the drop off?

The fact they said they won’t allow this strategy- why did they tell Bottas during the race that Hamilton is one stopping and you need to pass him on track then? Lots of BS from Mercedes there. Doesn’t add up


Well thats the third explanation, The other being that Ham wouldn't be allowed to win on an alternate strategy (team ethos that applies to both) and the third being that they didn't want to have to tell a 5 times WDC to move aside to let Bottas pass (better to disguise it through a pit stop). Personally I'm waiting for the Mercedes Pitwall video midweek for the forth and final explanation. :]


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:05 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Invade wrote:
Interesting new tyre deg graphics. No idea how accurate they are though.


Vettel is on the 2-stopper.

Where do they get this information from.

I call BS.

Yea i think these graphics are just getting silly now. There is just too much to go wrong with them. It is like when they brought in little multi piece sectors times. as in the first sector had around 20 sections. And i think it was all guesswork that these pieces went green, purple or yellow before the sector was complete. They were used 1 year in the first qualifying session and were never used again. They were so buggy and inaccurate.

I think this thing about tyre life is useless. Even drivers who had been driving for ages behind other cars apparently had a huge percentage of life left in them. I don't believe that at all. These graphics should be removed along with several others. it is just looking way to cluttered. More like a overly detailed video game than reality. I wish there was an option to disable them. The big box on the left with all the drivers is over sized enough IMO. The cars keep driving behind it. I preferred when it was a discrete bar in the middle at the bottom showing 5 drivers at a time and switching every few seconds.

Every time they try and bring more to improve things, it makes it worse. And it isn't just graphics.

The mini sectors are accurate and what the teams use, its GPS data, no guesswork at all. The only reason they stopped using them was because it ruined the suspense of qualifying and the fans didn’t like that, preferring the 3 sector system.

The tyre graphics I do not know where it gets it’s data from. It seemed reasonably accurate this race, but without knowing how this data is derived I wouldn’t rubbish it just yet. It would be interesting to know.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:07 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Invade wrote:
Interesting new tyre deg graphics. No idea how accurate they are though.


Vettel is on the 2-stopper.

Where do they get this information from.

I call BS.

Yea i think these graphics are just getting silly now. There is just too much to go wrong with them. It is like when they brought in little multi piece sectors times. as in the first sector had around 20 sections. And i think it was all guesswork that these pieces went green, purple or yellow before the sector was complete. They were used 1 year in the first qualifying session and were never used again. They were so buggy and inaccurate.

I think this thing about tyre life is useless. Even drivers who had been driving for ages behind other cars apparently had a huge percentage of life left in them. I don't believe that at all. These graphics should be removed along with several others. it is just looking way to cluttered. More like a overly detailed video game than reality. I wish there was an option to disable them. The big box on the left with all the drivers is over sized enough IMO. The cars keep driving behind it. I preferred when it was a discrete bar in the middle at the bottom showing 5 drivers at a time and switching every few seconds.

Every time they try and bring more to improve things, it makes it worse. And it isn't just graphics.


Think Coultard hit the nail on the head. He said whoever came up with these graphics clearly doesn't have a F1 background, but is obviously a gamer.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:10 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Yes that’s much better rather than saying I just think. I’ll pass judgement when I see the times but Hamiltons times never dropped suddenly on the mediums and I didn’t notice that on Bottas watching the live timing.

The question I would put to Wolf is, where did Hamilton finish? Yes, 3rd behind Vettel. So they pitted him to defend against Vettel and finished behind him anyway.

I just re-watched that part of the race and Hamilton was 17.5 ahead with 10 laps to. The last 2 laps of the stint he extended the gap to Vettel, where is the drop off?

The fact they said they won’t allow this strategy- why did they tell Bottas during the race that Hamilton is one stopping and you need to pass him on track then? Lots of BS from Mercedes there. Doesn’t add up


Well thats the third explanation, The other being that Ham wouldn't be allowed to win on an alternate strategy (team ethos that applies to both) and the third being that they didn't want to have to tell a 5 times WDC to move aside to let Bottas pass (better to disguise it through a pit stop). Personally I'm waiting for the Mercedes Pitwall video midweek for the forth and final explanation. :]


A decision isn’t made by 1 factor.

Wolf said himself, Hamilton wouldn’t be allowed to win on an alternative strategy (read the link). But that contradicts the message given to Bottas during the race that he needed to catch and pass Hamilton on track as Hamilton was 1 stopping. So who knows, someone in Mercedes isn’t telling the complete truth. They also allowed Hamilton an alternative 1 stop strategy at Silverstone that would have won him the race against Bottas’ 2.

If you read the link, Wolf said it was either let Bottas into the lead with a team order or pitting Lewis to resolve making sure Bottas won.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:12 am 
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Clarky wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
cmax wrote:
Is Lewis carrying damage I wonder?

Lost a wing mirror, apparently

This happened down the back straight.

When LeClerc's front wing finally gave way the debris hit Hamilton's mirror and break it. Could have hit his head.

https://twitter.com/racefansdotnet/stat ... 6865324032

How lucky is Hamilton through being hit on the helmet.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:12 am 
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So the Racing Point protest regarding Renault is regarding a "pre-set lap distance-dependent brake bias adjustment system"... Obviously.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:20 am 
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Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Invade wrote:
Interesting new tyre deg graphics. No idea how accurate they are though.


Vettel is on the 2-stopper.

Where do they get this information from.

I call BS.

Yea i think these graphics are just getting silly now. There is just too much to go wrong with them. It is like when they brought in little multi piece sectors times. as in the first sector had around 20 sections. And i think it was all guesswork that these pieces went green, purple or yellow before the sector was complete. They were used 1 year in the first qualifying session and were never used again. They were so buggy and inaccurate.

I think this thing about tyre life is useless. Even drivers who had been driving for ages behind other cars apparently had a huge percentage of life left in them. I don't believe that at all. These graphics should be removed along with several others. it is just looking way to cluttered. More like a overly detailed video game than reality. I wish there was an option to disable them. The big box on the left with all the drivers is over sized enough IMO. The cars keep driving behind it. I preferred when it was a discrete bar in the middle at the bottom showing 5 drivers at a time and switching every few seconds.

Every time they try and bring more to improve things, it makes it worse. And it isn't just graphics.

The mini sectors are accurate and what the teams use, its GPS data, no guesswork at all. The only reason they stopped using them was because it ruined the suspense of qualifying and the fans didn’t like that, preferring the 3 sector system.

The tyre graphics I do not know where it gets it’s data from. It seemed reasonably accurate this race, but without knowing how this data is derived I wouldn’t rubbish it just yet. It would be interesting to know.

Ah ok. But it certainly is too cluttered.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:29 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Yes that’s much better rather than saying I just think. I’ll pass judgement when I see the times but Hamiltons times never dropped suddenly on the mediums and I didn’t notice that on Bottas watching the live timing.

The question I would put to Wolf is, where did Hamilton finish? Yes, 3rd behind Vettel. So they pitted him to defend against Vettel and finished behind him anyway.

I just re-watched that part of the race and Hamilton was 17.5 ahead with 10 laps to. The last 2 laps of the stint he extended the gap to Vettel, where is the drop off?

The fact they said they won’t allow this strategy- why did they tell Bottas during the race (just after his first stop) that Hamilton is one stopping and you need to pass him on track then? Lots of BS from Mercedes there. Doesn’t add up. Hamilton wasn’t going to be allowed to win (based on Wolfs quotes) and the easiest way to manage that was pitting him, whether he needed it or not. It saved using tea, orders.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0G4-Vp2TS0

From this video, the team radio heard was "OK Lewis so, pushing hard now." - Hamilton: "What do you think I've been doing this fast (or similar) God Knows how many laps. Tyres are dropping off."

I thought i remembered him saying similar to this. And I wasn't exactly wrong. This is what made me doubt that he would be able to keep Vettel behind right to the end. And given how fast Vettel was on the straights, i don't think A Ferrari getting by will have been that hard. I'm not sure if Mercedes expected Hamilton to be able to re pass Vettel, but it was worth doing what they did if Hamilton thought his tyres were dropping off. As he likely will have been got by Vettel. But then he could have waited for that anyway and still pitted for fastest lap. So i guess it still seems a bit strange.

But I do think my views are valid. Quite a lot of what I though seems to be the case from what Toto and Hamilton has said.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:33 am 
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Johnson wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Yes that’s much better rather than saying I just think. I’ll pass judgement when I see the times but Hamiltons times never dropped suddenly on the mediums and I didn’t notice that on Bottas watching the live timing.

The question I would put to Wolf is, where did Hamilton finish? Yes, 3rd behind Vettel. So they pitted him to defend against Vettel and finished behind him anyway.

I just re-watched that part of the race and Hamilton was 17.5 ahead with 10 laps to. The last 2 laps of the stint he extended the gap to Vettel, where is the drop off?

The fact they said they won’t allow this strategy- why did they tell Bottas during the race that Hamilton is one stopping and you need to pass him on track then? Lots of BS from Mercedes there. Doesn’t add up


Well thats the third explanation, The other being that Ham wouldn't be allowed to win on an alternate strategy (team ethos that applies to both) and the third being that they didn't want to have to tell a 5 times WDC to move aside to let Bottas pass (better to disguise it through a pit stop). Personally I'm waiting for the Mercedes Pitwall video midweek for the forth and final explanation. :]


A decision isn’t made by 1 factor.

Wolf said himself, Hamilton wouldn’t be allowed to win on an alternative strategy (read the link). But that contradicts the message given to Bottas during the race that he needed to catch and pass Hamilton on track as Hamilton was 1 stopping. So who knows, someone in Mercedes isn’t telling the complete truth. They also allowed Hamilton an alternative 1 stop strategy at Silverstone that would have won him the race against Bottas’ 2.

If you read the link, Wolf said it was either let Bottas into the lead with a team order or pitting Lewis to resolve making sure Bottas won.


Thats what I was saying. It's part of the team agreements in relation to who is first or second on the track.

The Silverstone alternate strategy was confirmed at the time as one put forward by both drivers pre race; and agreed to by the team. So in that respect it was a 'one-off'.

That could change now the WCC is sown up, and maybe change again once the WDC is finalised?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:36 am 
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Leclerc’s penalty is a two part penalty, 5 seconds for the collision and 10 for staying out with a damaged car: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/lecl ... nic&nrt=54

Interesting read as during the race it seemed very much like it was Charles alone deciding not to pit.


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