2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

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mikeyg123
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:I do not trust these tyre condition graphics. I am sure Hamilton said they were worn.
Mercedes would not put one of their drivers losing a position to vettel without reason. I don't think it is to do with bottas. If Hamilton could win with what he had, he would have ignored the stop surely.
13 laps to go and Vettel 15 seconds back and not catching...

No way is this about getting this best result.
I am sure Hamilton implied he would have to pit before the end. Just before he pitted he was giving it all and will have been doing his tyres no good in traffic. He should have been able to get by vettenafter he pitted. How can we be sure vettel wouldn't have got him if Hamilton did not pit? He sounded like he said he coudn't go much further. It is surely doubtful he would have beaten vettel if that was the case.
And it was very doubtful he'd be able to overtake Vettel as well. Bottom line he was 15 seconds away from Vettel with 13 laps to go and not being caught.

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Johnson
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

pokerman wrote:
Johnson wrote:
32deuce wrote:Mercedes gave away a 1-2. Don't think Hamilton's tires were dead. Stupid decision.
Mercedes rules of engagement, the guy behind can’t run a different strategy and jump the one ahead. Stupid, they should have ordered Bottas through if they wanted him to win.
Yep I just said that however I guess they have to think would Hamilton let him pass, I actually even have a feeling that Bottas would not have caught him anyway.
Hamilton should have been allowed to fight for the win. Can you image Ferrari doing that to Schumacher to make it fair for Barrichello. Hamilton would have likely won.

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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:I do not trust these tyre condition graphics. I am sure Hamilton said they were worn.
Mercedes would not put one of their drivers losing a position to vettel without reason. I don't think it is to do with bottas. If Hamilton could win with what he had, he would have ignored the stop surely.
13 laps to go and Vettel 15 seconds back and not catching...

No way is this about getting this best result.
Let me introduce you to James Vowles.
I don't think this decision is on Vowles. I don't think Mercedes made the call thinking it was the best way to get a 1-2.
Then it had to be on Wolff not allowing Hamilton to win because of fairness, not bad treatment for a supposed #2 driver, however personally I don't have a lot of faith in Vowles, I've no idea what kind of strategy Hamilton was even given?
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Johnson
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

Just remembered they said to Bottas earlier in the year he would get paid back.. maybe that was it.

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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Flash2k11 »

Invade wrote:Bottas pretty much just said he was controlling and pushing when needed, and today that generally wasn't needed. So there you go. Lewis having to play catch-up distorts the picture, I suppose. I reckon if Bottas needed to take matters into his own hands in the end he could have done Lewis had he stayed on a 1-stopper, but we'll never know.
I think Bottas was always going to pass Lewis if he stayed out, but I think they pitted Lewis purely to appease Bottas after telling him that they were definitely going to pit him. Had they left Lewis out and told him to let Valteri through, it was surely a nailed on 1-2.
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:I do not trust these tyre condition graphics. I am sure Hamilton said they were worn.
Mercedes would not put one of their drivers losing a position to vettel without reason. I don't think it is to do with bottas. If Hamilton could win with what he had, he would have ignored the stop surely.
13 laps to go and Vettel 15 seconds back and not catching...

No way is this about getting this best result.
Let me introduce you to James Vowles.
I don't think this decision is on Vowles. I don't think Mercedes made the call thinking it was the best way to get a 1-2.
Then it had to be on Wolff not allowing Hamilton to win because of fairness, not bad treatment for a supposed #2 driver, however personally I don't have a lot of faith in Vowles, I've no idea what kind of strategy Hamilton was even given?
If allowed to stay on a one stopper quite possibly a winning one. But yes. i think the call was Wolf's.

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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »

Flash2k11 wrote:
Invade wrote:Bottas pretty much just said he was controlling and pushing when needed, and today that generally wasn't needed. So there you go. Lewis having to play catch-up distorts the picture, I suppose. I reckon if Bottas needed to take matters into his own hands in the end he could have done Lewis had he stayed on a 1-stopper, but we'll never know.
I think Bottas was always going to pass Lewis if he stayed out, but I think they pitted Lewis purely to appease Bottas after telling him that they were definitely going to pit him. Had they left Lewis out and told him to let Valteri through, it was surely a nailed on 1-2.
:thumbup:

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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:I do not trust these tyre condition graphics. I am sure Hamilton said they were worn.
Mercedes would not put one of their drivers losing a position to vettel without reason. I don't think it is to do with bottas. If Hamilton could win with what he had, he would have ignored the stop surely.
13 laps to go and Vettel 15 seconds back and not catching...

No way is this about getting this best result.
I am sure Hamilton implied he would have to pit before the end. Just before he pitted he was giving it all and will have been doing his tyres no good in traffic. He should have been able to get by vettenafter he pitted. How can we be sure vettel wouldn't have got him if Hamilton did not pit? He sounded like he said he coudn't go much further. It is surely doubtful he would have beaten vettel if that was the case.
And it was very doubtful he'd be able to overtake Vettel as well. Bottom line he was 15 seconds away from Vettel with 13 laps to go and not being caught.
Indeed worse scenario Hamilton's tyres hit the cliff and he finishes 3rd instead of winning, he was put on a nothing strategy throughout the race and not allowed the one stop.
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

Johnson wrote:Just remembered they said to Bottas earlier in the year he would get paid back.. maybe that was it.
That's possible but strange they throw away a 1-2 finish.
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by shay550 »

6 titles in a row. What a feat from Mercedes!

Lewis played the team game today and didn’t make it hard for Valtteri. Fair play! Wondering if an undercut would have worked today. For some reason they don’t try the undercut with him.

Great defense from Seb at the end!

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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

I don't see the issue with what Mercedes did with Hamilton. He was giving it everything when Bottas had had his 2nd stop. Despite this, Hamilton was nearly as fast as Bottas. Implying he seriously was pushing. In all that traffic, although he was faster than Vettel at this stage, I seriously doubt he could have kept Vettel behind given he couldn't get past when he was significantly quicker. If Hamilton hadn't pitted, Ferrari's speed almost certainly will have got Vettel by. I think Mercedes gave Hamilton the best oppertunity of 2nd. I know Bottas will have had to get by Hamilton, but Hamilton's tyres will not have had the performance he was showing for long. and i feel there will have been orders to let Bottas by anyway for once as he will have been quicker.

I may be in the minority, but I think mercedes were right with what they did, but Hamilton couldn't pull it off. Don't think this is anything to do with giving Bottas a win. He deserved this and would have got it anyway given how bad Hamilton's tyres will have been at the end. He has managed his tyres so well in the past, but i'm pretty sure they will have been well past it several laps from the end.
Last edited by TheGiantHogweed on Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by BMWSauber84 »

pokerman wrote:
Johnson wrote:Just remembered they said to Bottas earlier in the year he would get paid back.. maybe that was it.
That's possible but strange they throw away a 1-2 finish.
It is, but I suppose losing the place to Vettel only cost Hamilton two points as he wouldn't have got the fastest lap staying out. The team played it super safe.

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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

pokerman wrote:
Johnson wrote:Just remembered they said to Bottas earlier in the year he would get paid back.. maybe that was it.
That's possible but strange they throw away a 1-2 finish.
As I imply in my post above, where is the confirmation Hamilton could have held 2nd? Mercedes will have ordered him to allow Bottas by due to the speed difference due to tyres by the end IMO. And Vettel's speed was so much faster on the straights that i am certain he will have got Hamilton too. This was the best chance Hamilton was given to get Vettel IMO, and he couldn't despite being so much faster. I don't know how people are expecting to hold Vettel back at the end when he was ona 1 stop. The Ferrari is just so quick that on the straight, surely Vettel would fly by?

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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:I don't see the issue with what Mercedes did with Hamilton. He was giving it everything when Bottas had had his 2nd stop. Despite this, Hamilton was nearly as fast as Bottas. Implying he seriously was puc=shing. In all that traffic, although he was faster than Vettel at this stage, I seriously doubt he could have kept Vettel behind given he couldn't get past when he was significantly quicker. If Hamilton hadn't pitted, Ferrari's speed almost certainly will have got Vettel by. I think Mercedes gave Hamilton the best oppertunity of 2nd. I know Bottas will have had to get by Hamilton, but Hamilton's tyres will not have had the performence he was showing for long. and i feel there will have been orders to let Bottas by anyway for once as he will have been quicker.

I may be in the minority, but I think mercedes were right with what they did, but Hamilton couldn't pull it off. Don't think this is anything to do with giving Bottas a win. He deserved this and would have got it anyway given how bad Hamilton's tyres will have been at the end. He has managed his tyres so well in the past, but i'm pretty sure they will have been well past it several laps from the end.
What makes you think Hamilton was about to start losing a lot of time? What evidence are you using to come to that conclusion ?

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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by sandman1347 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:I don't see the issue with what Mercedes did with Hamilton. He was giving it everything when Bottas had had his 2nd stop. Despite this, Hamilton was nearly as fast as Bottas. Implying he seriously was puc=shing. In all that traffic, although he was faster than Vettel at this stage, I seriously doubt he could have kept Vettel behind given he couldn't get past when he was significantly quicker. If Hamilton hadn't pitted, Ferrari's speed almost certainly will have got Vettel by. I think Mercedes gave Hamilton the best oppertunity of 2nd. I know Bottas will have had to get by Hamilton, but Hamilton's tyres will not have had the performence he was showing for long. and i feel there will have been orders to let Bottas by anyway for once as he will have been quicker.

I may be in the minority, but I think mercedes were right with what they did, but Hamilton couldn't pull it off. Don't think this is anything to do with giving Bottas a win. He deserved this and would have got it anyway given how bad Hamilton's tyres will have been at the end. He has managed his tyres so well in the past, but i'm pretty sure they will have been well past it several laps from the end.
To me, they probably cost Hamilton a win. I think he had much better odds of winning the race by staying out than by pitting. Bottas would have caught him but passing is a different story. Maybe he would have, maybe not. I think Vettel was so far behind that there was no way he was going to get Lewis. Merc threw away a 1-2 finish in this race. I do get the feeling that they wanted Valteri to leave with a smile on his face today and understandably so.

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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Johnson wrote:Just remembered they said to Bottas earlier in the year he would get paid back.. maybe that was it.
That's possible but strange they throw away a 1-2 finish.
As I imply in my post above, where is the confirmation Hamilton could have held 2nd? Mercedes will have ordered him to allow Bottas by due to the speed difference due to tyres by the end IMO. And Vettel's speed was so much faster on the straights that i am certain he will have got Hamilton too. This was the best chance Hamilton was given to get Vettel IMO, and he couldn't despite being so much faster. I don't know how people are expecting to hold Vettel back at the end when he was ona 1 stop. The Ferrari is just so quick that on the straight, surely Vettel would fly by?
How do you know Vettel was going to catch Hamilton? , Bottas or Vettel wasnt making in roads into the gap and Ferrari isn't as good on its tyres.
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:I don't see the issue with what Mercedes did with Hamilton. He was giving it everything when Bottas had had his 2nd stop. Despite this, Hamilton was nearly as fast as Bottas. Implying he seriously was puc=shing. In all that traffic, although he was faster than Vettel at this stage, I seriously doubt he could have kept Vettel behind given he couldn't get past when he was significantly quicker. If Hamilton hadn't pitted, Ferrari's speed almost certainly will have got Vettel by. I think Mercedes gave Hamilton the best oppertunity of 2nd. I know Bottas will have had to get by Hamilton, but Hamilton's tyres will not have had the performence he was showing for long. and i feel there will have been orders to let Bottas by anyway for once as he will have been quicker.

I may be in the minority, but I think mercedes were right with what they did, but Hamilton couldn't pull it off. Don't think this is anything to do with giving Bottas a win. He deserved this and would have got it anyway given how bad Hamilton's tyres will have been at the end. He has managed his tyres so well in the past, but i'm pretty sure they will have been well past it several laps from the end.
What makes you think Hamilton was about to start losing a lot of time? What evidence are you using to come to that conclusion ?
because he said his tyres were a lot worse when he pitted?? At least it sounded like that. I think he had taken the best out of them. They would still be decent for most of the race, but i think Mercedes only pitted because they knew vettel would likely get him anyway, and this will have given him a better chance of getting by him plus fastest lap. Still don't see the issue with what they did.
Last edited by TheGiantHogweed on Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by -K- »

One would have thought they would pay back Bottas once Hamilton has the WDC in the bag too, but instead he’s just lost 9 points to Bottas. Schumacher paid back Rubens after sealing the title in 2002 didn’t he?

1-2 would have been an easier way of sealing the constructors’ than needing Hamilton to hold onto fastest lap. Shame Leclerc was held up on the last lap as that would have made them look even more silly, championship not in the bag.

It seems to me that putting Hamilton on the hards or having him try to nurse the mediums to the end would have both been better than this. He only burned the softs so fast because he was trying to re-pass Vettel. Maybe the strategy they did would have been worth a gamble if Vettel was still under investigation, but he wasn’t.

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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

F1_Ernie wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Johnson wrote:Just remembered they said to Bottas earlier in the year he would get paid back.. maybe that was it.
That's possible but strange they throw away a 1-2 finish.
As I imply in my post above, where is the confirmation Hamilton could have held 2nd? Mercedes will have ordered him to allow Bottas by due to the speed difference due to tyres by the end IMO. And Vettel's speed was so much faster on the straights that i am certain he will have got Hamilton too. This was the best chance Hamilton was given to get Vettel IMO, and he couldn't despite being so much faster. I don't know how people are expecting to hold Vettel back at the end when he was ona 1 stop. The Ferrari is just so quick that on the straight, surely Vettel would fly by?
How do you know Vettel was going to catch Hamilton? , Bottas or Vettel wasnt making in roads into the gap and Ferrari isn't as good on its tyres.
Ferrari isn't as good on old tyres. Hamilton couldn't get by Vettel when he was on brand new super softs vs vettel on older mediums. I just think that Hamilton trying as hard as he did (he even said he was giving it everything) will have resulted in vettel catching him and having far better tyre life at the end. But then i guess it could have been the case that hamilton didn't give it everything if he knew he wasn't pitting.

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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Herb »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Johnson wrote:Just remembered they said to Bottas earlier in the year he would get paid back.. maybe that was it.
That's possible but strange they throw away a 1-2 finish.
As I imply in my post above, where is the confirmation Hamilton could have held 2nd? Mercedes will have ordered him to allow Bottas by due to the speed difference due to tyres by the end IMO. And Vettel's speed was so much faster on the straights that i am certain he will have got Hamilton too. This was the best chance Hamilton was given to get Vettel IMO, and he couldn't despite being so much faster. I don't know how people are expecting to hold Vettel back at the end when he was ona 1 stop. The Ferrari is just so quick that on the straight, surely Vettel would fly by?
Vettel would have to catch Hamilton to use that straight line speed advantage. He wasn't doing so (yet!).

I do think Ham would have held 2nd, but I don't mind too much about it to be honest. I think with the lack of data the team had, they took a judgement call. They obviously thought he could get the job done.

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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

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Regarding Vettel's false start, do you remember Valtteri's mega start from some time back which was also deemed a false start by some. Apparently back then and also today what detrrmines if it's a false start is the sensor underneath the car. If the sensor says he didn't move enough before the lights went out there's not much room for interpretation or bias.

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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

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TheGiantHogweed wrote:I don't see the issue with what Mercedes did with Hamilton. He was giving it everything when Bottas had had his 2nd stop. Despite this, Hamilton was nearly as fast as Bottas. Implying he seriously was pushing. In all that traffic, although he was faster than Vettel at this stage, I seriously doubt he could have kept Vettel behind given he couldn't get past when he was significantly quicker. If Hamilton hadn't pitted, Ferrari's speed almost certainly will have got Vettel by. I think Mercedes gave Hamilton the best oppertunity of 2nd. I know Bottas will have had to get by Hamilton, but Hamilton's tyres will not have had the performance he was showing for long. and i feel there will have been orders to let Bottas by anyway for once as he will have been quicker.

I may be in the minority, but I think mercedes were right with what they did, but Hamilton couldn't pull it off. Don't think this is anything to do with giving Bottas a win. He deserved this and would have got it anyway given how bad Hamilton's tyres will have been at the end. He has managed his tyres so well in the past, but i'm pretty sure they will have been well past it several laps from the end.
Did you watch a different race?

Hamilton was still pulling away from Vettel when they pitted Hamilton. He needed to drop like a stone to for Vettel to get him and Vettels tyres would also be going off. His tyres were finished by the end as he was on softs.

Hamilton nearly as fast as Bottas? He was 9 seconds quicker in the second stint. But he had 5 lap fresher tyres. The gap went from 23 to 14 seconds.

Hamilton couldn’t pull it off? His times never dropped off at all. I don’t see any evidence for that.
Last edited by Johnson on Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Apparently Ricciardo did a stint of 30 laps on the medium earlier in the race and with a heavier fuel load. That number would have taken Hamilton to the end of the grand Prix. Of course though there are variables within that comparison.

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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

mikeyg123,

More about the jump start. https://www.racefans.net/2019/10/13/ste ... rt-penalty

Kimi last races moves very far forward indeed before the lights went out. Vettel didn't even leave what is still within the limits. So it is a pretty different situation as i thought. Certainly not exactly the same. I don't see inconsistency here.

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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Johnson wrote:Just remembered they said to Bottas earlier in the year he would get paid back.. maybe that was it.
That's possible but strange they throw away a 1-2 finish.
As I imply in my post above, where is the confirmation Hamilton could have held 2nd? Mercedes will have ordered him to allow Bottas by due to the speed difference due to tyres by the end IMO. And Vettel's speed was so much faster on the straights that i am certain he will have got Hamilton too. This was the best chance Hamilton was given to get Vettel IMO, and he couldn't despite being so much faster. I don't know how people are expecting to hold Vettel back at the end when he was ona 1 stop. The Ferrari is just so quick that on the straight, surely Vettel would fly by?
How do you know Vettel was going to catch Hamilton? , Bottas or Vettel wasnt making in roads into the gap and Ferrari isn't as good on its tyres.
Ferrari isn't as good on old tyres. Hamilton couldn't get by Vettel when he was on brand new super softs vs vettel on old mediums. I just think that Hamilton trying as hard as he did (he even said he was giving it everything) will have resulted in vettel catching him and having far better tyre life at the end. But then i guess it could have been the case that hamilton didn't give it everything if he knew he wasn't pitting.
Lots of guessing going on but I fully expect Mercedes to come out with the same excuse that Hamilton's tyres wouldn't last. Vettel wasn't taking any time out of Hamilton, the only way Vettel was catching Hamilton was if his tyres hit the cliff. Your better off trying to keep a 1-2 by staying out with a big gap and track position than pitting on a track which is very difficult to overtake on and against a car with is stupid quick on the straights, the overtake was never happening.
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

BMWSauber84 wrote:Apparently Ricciardo did a stint of 30 laps on the medium earlier in the race and with a heavier fuel load. That number would have taken Hamilton to the end of the grand Prix. Of course though there are variables within that comparison.
Sky mentioned that Ricciardo was really slow though compared to the rest. This is why I think Vettel will have got Hamilton. It may have got Hamilton to the end, But I am certain vettel would have caught up. It may be difficult to get by a ferrari in a Mercedes, but the other way round, The Speed advantage on the straight, i think vettel will have got it done pretty easily. That is why I don't think Mercedes decision to box and get fastest lap was not a bad one.

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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by JN23 »

A system error on the timing system had the race finish at lap 52, meaning that Perez keep P9. Does that mean no I vestigation for Gasly?

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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Flash2k11 »

Covalent wrote:Regarding Vettel's false start, do you remember Valtteri's mega start from some time back which was also deemed a false start by some. Apparently back then and also today what detrrmines if it's a false start is the sensor underneath the car. If the sensor says he didn't move enough before the lights went out there's not much room for interpretation or bias.
The difference was that Valteri didn't actually move before the lights went green, just so close from the point when they went green that it wasn't possible with human reaction time to have actually reacted to the lights. The inference being that he guessed and got very, very lucky. Vettel just plain rolled forwards while the lights were still red... the fact that he stopped again should be immaterial really, and for the stewards to say that he didnt move enough to set off their sensor (IE he was still behind the line) is just daft.

It's about as black and white as a rule can be in F1.... seemed to be reactionary stewarding all round today, can't say i'm a fan of it.
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »

Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:I don't see the issue with what Mercedes did with Hamilton. He was giving it everything when Bottas had had his 2nd stop. Despite this, Hamilton was nearly as fast as Bottas. Implying he seriously was pushing. In all that traffic, although he was faster than Vettel at this stage, I seriously doubt he could have kept Vettel behind given he couldn't get past when he was significantly quicker. If Hamilton hadn't pitted, Ferrari's speed almost certainly will have got Vettel by. I think Mercedes gave Hamilton the best oppertunity of 2nd. I know Bottas will have had to get by Hamilton, but Hamilton's tyres will not have had the performance he was showing for long. and i feel there will have been orders to let Bottas by anyway for once as he will have been quicker.

I may be in the minority, but I think mercedes were right with what they did, but Hamilton couldn't pull it off. Don't think this is anything to do with giving Bottas a win. He deserved this and would have got it anyway given how bad Hamilton's tyres will have been at the end. He has managed his tyres so well in the past, but i'm pretty sure they will have been well past it several laps from the end.
Did you watch a different race?

Hamilton was still pulling away from Vettel when they pitted Hamilton. He needed to drop like a stone to for Vettel to get him and Vettels tyres would also be going off. His tyres were finished by the end as he was on softs.

Hamilton nearly as fast as Bottas? He was 9 seconds quicker in the second stint. But he had 5 lap fresher tyres. The gap went from 23 to 14 seconds.

Hamilton couldn’t pull it off? His times never dropped off at all. I don’t see any evidence for that.
I'm pretty sure he was referring to Ham keeping pace with Bottas on well used mediums after Bottas' second pitstop.

TheGiantHogweed
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

F1_Ernie wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote: That's possible but strange they throw away a 1-2 finish.
As I imply in my post above, where is the confirmation Hamilton could have held 2nd? Mercedes will have ordered him to allow Bottas by due to the speed difference due to tyres by the end IMO. And Vettel's speed was so much faster on the straights that i am certain he will have got Hamilton too. This was the best chance Hamilton was given to get Vettel IMO, and he couldn't despite being so much faster. I don't know how people are expecting to hold Vettel back at the end when he was ona 1 stop. The Ferrari is just so quick that on the straight, surely Vettel would fly by?
How do you know Vettel was going to catch Hamilton? , Bottas or Vettel wasnt making in roads into the gap and Ferrari isn't as good on its tyres.
Ferrari isn't as good on old tyres. Hamilton couldn't get by Vettel when he was on brand new super softs vs vettel on old mediums. I just think that Hamilton trying as hard as he did (he even said he was giving it everything) will have resulted in vettel catching him and having far better tyre life at the end. But then i guess it could have been the case that hamilton didn't give it everything if he knew he wasn't pitting.
Lots of guessing going on but I fully expect Mercedes to come out with the same excuse that Hamilton's tyres wouldn't last. Vettel wasn't taking any time out of Hamilton, the only way Vettel was catching Hamilton was if his tyres hit the cliff. Your better off trying to keep a 1-2 by staying out with a big gap and track position than pitting on a track which is very difficult to overtake on and against a car with is stupid quick on the straights, the overtake was never happening.
And what is this "Guessing" that everyone seems to think Mercedes did that for Bottas? Where is the evidence of that? Have Mercedes admitted the reason? That is what is puzzling me. I thought there were more obvious reason's for Hamilton pitting.

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Johnson
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Johnson »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Johnson wrote:Just remembered they said to Bottas earlier in the year he would get paid back.. maybe that was it.
That's possible but strange they throw away a 1-2 finish.
As I imply in my post above, where is the confirmation Hamilton could have held 2nd? Mercedes will have ordered him to allow Bottas by due to the speed difference due to tyres by the end IMO. And Vettel's speed was so much faster on the straights that i am certain he will have got Hamilton too. This was the best chance Hamilton was given to get Vettel IMO, and he couldn't despite being so much faster. I don't know how people are expecting to hold Vettel back at the end when he was ona 1 stop. The Ferrari is just so quick that on the straight, surely Vettel would fly by?
How do you know Vettel was going to catch Hamilton? , Bottas or Vettel wasnt making in roads into the gap and Ferrari isn't as good on its tyres.
Ferrari isn't as good on old tyres. Hamilton couldn't get by Vettel when he was on brand new super softs vs vettel on older mediums. I just think that Hamilton trying as hard as he did (he even said he was giving it everything) will have resulted in vettel catching him and having far better tyre life at the end. But then i guess it could have been the case that hamilton didn't give it everything if he knew he wasn't pitting.
You say.. Ferrari isn’t so good on old tyres? It’s impossible to overtake?

So how was Vettel on old softs going to overtake Hamilton, ignoring the fact he had to close 15 seconds in 13 laps.

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Covalent
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Covalent »

Flash2k11 wrote:
Covalent wrote:Regarding Vettel's false start, do you remember Valtteri's mega start from some time back which was also deemed a false start by some. Apparently back then and also today what detrrmines if it's a false start is the sensor underneath the car. If the sensor says he didn't move enough before the lights went out there's not much room for interpretation or bias.
The difference was that Valteri didn't actually move before the lights went green, just so close from the point when they went green that it wasn't possible with human reaction time to have actually reacted to the lights. The inference being that he guessed and got very, very lucky. Vettel just plain rolled forwards while the lights were still red... the fact that he stopped again should be immaterial really, and for the stewards to say that he didnt move enough to set off their sensor (IE he was still behind the line) is just daft.

It's about as black and white as a rule can be in F1.... seemed to be reactionary stewarding all round today, can't say i'm a fan of it.
I may be wrong here but I think he did move before the lights went green, it's just that they went out barely before the sensor reported movement.

BMWSauber84
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by BMWSauber84 »

I can imagine the outrage from some of the erm 'usual suspects' on here had the situations been reversed and Bottas had been pitted from the lead when maybe a one stop could have won him the race.

I'm sure they will be along in a moment to talk about what a disgrace Mercedes are for not letting their drivers race...surely they won't take completely the opposite view just because it's Bottas and not Hamilton that was the possible beneficiary.

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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by iano »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:I don't see the issue with what Mercedes did with Hamilton. He was giving it everything when Bottas had had his 2nd stop. Despite this, Hamilton was nearly as fast as Bottas. Implying he seriously was puc=shing. In all that traffic, although he was faster than Vettel at this stage, I seriously doubt he could have kept Vettel behind given he couldn't get past when he was significantly quicker. If Hamilton hadn't pitted, Ferrari's speed almost certainly will have got Vettel by. I think Mercedes gave Hamilton the best oppertunity of 2nd. I know Bottas will have had to get by Hamilton, but Hamilton's tyres will not have had the performence he was showing for long. and i feel there will have been orders to let Bottas by anyway for once as he will have been quicker.

I may be in the minority, but I think mercedes were right with what they did, but Hamilton couldn't pull it off. Don't think this is anything to do with giving Bottas a win. He deserved this and would have got it anyway given how bad Hamilton's tyres will have been at the end. He has managed his tyres so well in the past, but i'm pretty sure they will have been well past it several laps from the end.
What makes you think Hamilton was about to start losing a lot of time? What evidence are you using to come to that conclusion ?
because he said his tyres were a lot worse when he pitted?? At least it sounded like that. I think he had taken the best out of them. They would still be decent for most of the race, but i think Mercedes only pitted because they knew vettel would likely get him anyway, and this will have given him a better chance of getting by him plus fastest lap. Still don't see the issue with what they did.
The graphic showed Hamiltion having 70% life remaining on every tire as he pulled into the pits. I would think 70% on a medium tire to run 10 more laps should be quite safe.

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Mercedes-Benz
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

Mercedes definitely missed 1-2 here but after qualifying they should be happy with the result. Charles definitely deserves penalty for ending Max race. Though Perez and Gasly was a racing incident. Not sure if Max had some issue with engine in qualifying but Albon was did a great job good in qualifying. Sadly his race pace is very poor.
Sir Stirling Moss "Quite frankly, Kimi Raikkonen is the fastest driver in the world"

mikeyg123
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:mikeyg123,

More about the jump start. https://www.racefans.net/2019/10/13/ste ... rt-penalty

Kimi last races moves very far forward indeed before the lights went out. Vettel didn't even leave what is still within the limits. So it is a pretty different situation as i thought. Certainly not exactly the same. I don't see inconsistency here.
I think what Vettel did would usually be penalised but I acknowledge it is directly comparable to Kimi.

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Invade
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by Invade »

TheGiantHogweed wrote: And what is this "Guessing" that everyone seems to think Mercedes did that for Bottas? Where is the evidence of that? Have Mercedes admitted the reason? That is what is puzzling me. I thought there were more obvious reason's for Hamilton pitting.
James Allison more or less stated that they pitted Ham to be secure and not risk the two drivers tangling later in the race.

BMWSauber84
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by BMWSauber84 »

What we should also remember is that all joking and speculation aside, without the Leclerc and Verstappen incident, Hamilton would probably not have gotten into that position of having a whiff of a victory. He had fallen behind both at the start.

mikeyg123
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:I don't see the issue with what Mercedes did with Hamilton. He was giving it everything when Bottas had had his 2nd stop. Despite this, Hamilton was nearly as fast as Bottas. Implying he seriously was puc=shing. In all that traffic, although he was faster than Vettel at this stage, I seriously doubt he could have kept Vettel behind given he couldn't get past when he was significantly quicker. If Hamilton hadn't pitted, Ferrari's speed almost certainly will have got Vettel by. I think Mercedes gave Hamilton the best oppertunity of 2nd. I know Bottas will have had to get by Hamilton, but Hamilton's tyres will not have had the performence he was showing for long. and i feel there will have been orders to let Bottas by anyway for once as he will have been quicker.

I may be in the minority, but I think mercedes were right with what they did, but Hamilton couldn't pull it off. Don't think this is anything to do with giving Bottas a win. He deserved this and would have got it anyway given how bad Hamilton's tyres will have been at the end. He has managed his tyres so well in the past, but i'm pretty sure they will have been well past it several laps from the end.
What makes you think Hamilton was about to start losing a lot of time? What evidence are you using to come to that conclusion ?
because he said his tyres were a lot worse when he pitted?? At least it sounded like that. I think he had taken the best out of them. They would still be decent for most of the race, but i think Mercedes only pitted because they knew vettel would likely get him anyway, and this will have given him a better chance of getting by him plus fastest lap. Still don't see the issue with what they did.
Vettel wasn't catching when he pitted so at that point the tyres can't have been too bad.

Look, he pits and he almost certainly finishes third with a slight chance of second. He stays out and he may even win with worse case being 3rd place. In any normal circumstance you stay out.

Hamilton always says his tyres are gone. Mercedes usually take it with a big pinch of salt.

sandman1347
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Re: 2019 Japanese Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by sandman1347 »

Invade wrote:
Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:I don't see the issue with what Mercedes did with Hamilton. He was giving it everything when Bottas had had his 2nd stop. Despite this, Hamilton was nearly as fast as Bottas. Implying he seriously was pushing. In all that traffic, although he was faster than Vettel at this stage, I seriously doubt he could have kept Vettel behind given he couldn't get past when he was significantly quicker. If Hamilton hadn't pitted, Ferrari's speed almost certainly will have got Vettel by. I think Mercedes gave Hamilton the best oppertunity of 2nd. I know Bottas will have had to get by Hamilton, but Hamilton's tyres will not have had the performance he was showing for long. and i feel there will have been orders to let Bottas by anyway for once as he will have been quicker.

I may be in the minority, but I think mercedes were right with what they did, but Hamilton couldn't pull it off. Don't think this is anything to do with giving Bottas a win. He deserved this and would have got it anyway given how bad Hamilton's tyres will have been at the end. He has managed his tyres so well in the past, but i'm pretty sure they will have been well past it several laps from the end.
Did you watch a different race?

Hamilton was still pulling away from Vettel when they pitted Hamilton. He needed to drop like a stone to for Vettel to get him and Vettels tyres would also be going off. His tyres were finished by the end as he was on softs.

Hamilton nearly as fast as Bottas? He was 9 seconds quicker in the second stint. But he had 5 lap fresher tyres. The gap went from 23 to 14 seconds.

Hamilton couldn’t pull it off? His times never dropped off at all. I don’t see any evidence for that.
I'm pretty sure he was referring to Ham keeping pace with Bottas on well used mediums after Bottas' second pitstop.
The fact is that, with 10 laps to go, Bottas wasn't catching him very quickly. He was only gaining about 3 tenths per lap and was 8 seconds behind. I think Hamilton would have dropped off towards the end and that Valteri would have caught up but I am far from declaring that he would have overtaken Lewis before the end of the race. It's a difficult track to overtake at and Valteri's tires would be far from fresh by the end.

Regardless of what happened between Lewis and Valteri; the main point that TheGiantHogweed made that I dispute is the point about Vettel. There is absolutely no reason to believe that Vettel would have beaten Hamilton had Lewis stayed out. Lewis was 18 seconds in front of Seb and the gap was growing with just 10 laps to go. No way was Seb going to get him.

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