planetf1.com

Before the summer break, Verstappen was the best driver of the season, many putting him even ahead of Hamilton.

For the last 3 years, Verstappen has been considered the best new talent without any challenger. The hype around him has be unreal, much more than what we had with Hamilton in 2007. In the races, he was on a high after cementing his authority in Austria.

But everything changed after SPA. While he was busy playing bumper cars in Spa and Monza, all eyes turned to Leclerc. Suddenly, nobody really cares what Verstappen does. No-one talks about him in the race. And the car he is driving is Formula 1.5 now. While he was busy crashing, those two races brought Leclerc to the fore, especially fighting head-to-head with Hamilton. And winning. Verstappen may not be able to bully him like he did in Austria.

If I was Verstappen, I'd be very worried. Suddenly, there's at least another driver people consider just as good as him. Everyone's talking about him. And he has the car under him, while Verstappen is driving around in F1.5. There's no reason to believe either Honda or Red Bull can turn things around in 2020. The euphoria of those couple of wins has died down and seems like a distant memory.

I'd be very surprised if Verstappen is not feeling the heat right now.

ReservoirDog wrote:Before the summer break, Verstappen was the best driver of the season, many putting him even ahead of Hamilton.

For the last 3 years, Verstappen has been considered the best new talent without any challenger. The hype around him has be unreal, much more than what we had with Hamilton in 2007. In the races, he was on a high after cementing his authority in Austria.

But everything changed after SPA. While he was busy playing bumper cars in Spa and Monza, all eyes turned to Leclerc. Suddenly, nobody really cares what Verstappen does. No-one talks about him in the race. And the car he is driving is Formula 1.5 now. While he was busy crashing, those two races brought Leclerc to the fore, especially fighting head-to-head with Hamilton. And winning. Verstappen may not be able to bully him like he did in Austria.

If I was Verstappen, I'd be very worried. Suddenly, there's at least another driver people consider just as good as him. Everyone's talking about him. And he has the car under him, while Verstappen is driving around in F1.5. There's no reason to believe either Honda or Red Bull can turn things around in 2020. The euphoria of those couple of wins has died down and seems like a distant memory.

I'd be very surprised if Verstappen is not feeling the heat right now.

I doubt F1 drivers pay much attention to who's being talked about. Verstappen's a self confident driver. He know's he's the best guy out there. I doubt anything in the last 4 races (Where he would have anticipated struggling in 3 of them) will bother him.

He's probably under the least pressure of anyone in F1 at present. I don't understand what he would be worrying about?

mikeyg123 wrote:

ReservoirDog wrote:Before the summer break, Verstappen was the best driver of the season, many putting him even ahead of Hamilton.

For the last 3 years, Verstappen has been considered the best new talent without any challenger. The hype around him has be unreal, much more than what we had with Hamilton in 2007. In the races, he was on a high after cementing his authority in Austria.

But everything changed after SPA. While he was busy playing bumper cars in Spa and Monza, all eyes turned to Leclerc. Suddenly, nobody really cares what Verstappen does. No-one talks about him in the race. And the car he is driving is Formula 1.5 now. While he was busy crashing, those two races brought Leclerc to the fore, especially fighting head-to-head with Hamilton. And winning. Verstappen may not be able to bully him like he did in Austria.

If I was Verstappen, I'd be very worried. Suddenly, there's at least another driver people consider just as good as him. Everyone's talking about him. And he has the car under him, while Verstappen is driving around in F1.5. There's no reason to believe either Honda or Red Bull can turn things around in 2020. The euphoria of those couple of wins has died down and seems like a distant memory.

I'd be very surprised if Verstappen is not feeling the heat right now.

I doubt F1 drivers pay much attention to who's being talked about. Verstappen's a self confident driver. He know's he's the best guy out there. I doubt anything in the last 4 races (Where he would have anticipated struggling in 3 of them) will bother him.

He's probably under the least pressure of anyone in F1 at present. I don't understand what he would be worrying about?

Isn't that it though, He thinks he's the best guy out there.

We don't really now now, Leclerc has closed that door so you would have to say Ferrari isn't an option in that case his only hope is Mercedes or a gamble.

Looks like he IS worried...

https://www.planetf1.com/news/red-bull- ... concerned/

It's becoming clear Red Bull isn't the car to be in.

Option or Prime wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

ReservoirDog wrote:Before the summer break, Verstappen was the best driver of the season, many putting him even ahead of Hamilton.

For the last 3 years, Verstappen has been considered the best new talent without any challenger. The hype around him has be unreal, much more than what we had with Hamilton in 2007. In the races, he was on a high after cementing his authority in Austria.

But everything changed after SPA. While he was busy playing bumper cars in Spa and Monza, all eyes turned to Leclerc. Suddenly, nobody really cares what Verstappen does. No-one talks about him in the race. And the car he is driving is Formula 1.5 now. While he was busy crashing, those two races brought Leclerc to the fore, especially fighting head-to-head with Hamilton. And winning. Verstappen may not be able to bully him like he did in Austria.

If I was Verstappen, I'd be very worried. Suddenly, there's at least another driver people consider just as good as him. Everyone's talking about him. And he has the car under him, while Verstappen is driving around in F1.5. There's no reason to believe either Honda or Red Bull can turn things around in 2020. The euphoria of those couple of wins has died down and seems like a distant memory.

I'd be very surprised if Verstappen is not feeling the heat right now.

I doubt F1 drivers pay much attention to who's being talked about. Verstappen's a self confident driver. He know's he's the best guy out there. I doubt anything in the last 4 races (Where he would have anticipated struggling in 3 of them) will bother him.

He's probably under the least pressure of anyone in F1 at present. I don't understand what he would be worrying about?

Isn't that it though, He thinks he's the best guy out there.

We don't really now now, Leclerc has closed that door so you would have to say Ferrari isn't an option in that case his only hope is Mercedes or a gamble.

But for him what he thinks is what matters. Us not really knowing isn't going to cause him concern.

Out of all the drivers in F1 I would say Max is under the least pressure. He's doesn't have the pressure of fighting for the championship, he's got a good get reputation, a long term contract, a team mate he can easily beat and he's young enough to know the prospect of being WDC is not a closing window for him.

I don't think Verstappen is under any particular pressure. I think Red Bull are under pressure to be honest. They have the best young driver in the sport but they do not have the car to keep him there at the moment. Empty promises start to backfire at some point. I think they will have to deliver by 2020 or face the real possibility of Max leaving. Of course, for Max to leave, the destination would have to be either Ferrari or Mercedes and there's no guarantee that either of those seats will be available in a year.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

ReservoirDog wrote:Before the summer break, Verstappen was the best driver of the season, many putting him even ahead of Hamilton.

For the last 3 years, Verstappen has been considered the best new talent without any challenger. The hype around him has be unreal, much more than what we had with Hamilton in 2007. In the races, he was on a high after cementing his authority in Austria.

But everything changed after SPA. While he was busy playing bumper cars in Spa and Monza, all eyes turned to Leclerc. Suddenly, nobody really cares what Verstappen does. No-one talks about him in the race. And the car he is driving is Formula 1.5 now. While he was busy crashing, those two races brought Leclerc to the fore, especially fighting head-to-head with Hamilton. And winning. Verstappen may not be able to bully him like he did in Austria.

If I was Verstappen, I'd be very worried. Suddenly, there's at least another driver people consider just as good as him. Everyone's talking about him. And he has the car under him, while Verstappen is driving around in F1.5. There's no reason to believe either Honda or Red Bull can turn things around in 2020. The euphoria of those couple of wins has died down and seems like a distant memory.

I'd be very surprised if Verstappen is not feeling the heat right now.

I doubt F1 drivers pay much attention to who's being talked about. Verstappen's a self confident driver. He know's he's the best guy out there. I doubt anything in the last 4 races (Where he would have anticipated struggling in 3 of them) will bother him.

He's probably under the least pressure of anyone in F1 at present. I don't understand what he would be worrying about?

Isn't that it though, He thinks he's the best guy out there.

We don't really now now, Leclerc has closed that door so you would have to say Ferrari isn't an option in that case his only hope is Mercedes or a gamble.

But for him what he thinks is what matters. Us not really knowing isn't going to cause him concern.

Out of all the drivers in F1 I would say Max is under the least pressure. He's doesn't have the pressure of fighting for the championship, he's got a good get reputation, a long term contract, a team mate he can easily beat and he's young enough to know the prospect of being WDC is not a closing window for him.

Well yes, but that is the voice of maturity speaking, I agree Red Bull are under pressure and Max isn't. However, the pressure comes from Max himself, he can be impatient and I don't think he will take it well if Leclerc gets a WDC before him.

I concur with the sentiments of the thread. Max is in a really, really sweet position right now. He's got a car that nobody expects him to be able to fight for the title with, and even at the few races where Red Bull are looked at as having a good chance to win, as long as he doesn't make a mistake that prevents that from happening, if they're actually not fighting for the win then nobody blames Max for that. Regardless of who his teammate is next year he's going to get the better of them, and whether the results he delivers are actually the best that can be expected from the car or not, because of the weaker performances of his teammate it's always going to be perceived to be the case. And when he does win races, he looks like an absolute star because of all of these points.

Obviously on a personal level, I'm sure he's hating seeing Leclerc come in, steal his thunder and being seen as F1's new star. Max has been dubbed Hamilton's heir for the last few years so having someone else muscle in on that, particularly for someone like Max who does seem (and this is just my perception, before anyone jumps on it) like the kind of personality who would be quite jealous at this. But the reality is that until he is fighting for a title, he has very little real pressure on him. Red Bull, on the other hand, sort of have to deliver in 2020 or really, really sell him on the 2021 car otherwise they're going to start facing a big challenge to actually keep him long-term.

He's under absolutely no pressure. He's at an age where a lot of drivers are only just getting into F1. The pressure will come when his Red Bull contract is coming to an end. He needs to make sure he is in a car capable of a championship fight, whether that's Red Bull or not remains to be seen.

Verstappen needs to get himself in a position where he can make a choice for the 2021 season.

2020 is Merc v Ferrari, and no seats open. 2021 is sort of the position Hamilton found himself in 2012 - big shake up happening and he is potentially dominant driver in the right car. Hamilton made a choice, an informed gamble, and history will rate him as one of top drivers as a result.

Being a great driver in the right car is where legacys get defined!

Max potentially has >15yrs in this sport, he has the talent, but depending on choices and luck - he could smash every record or end up without ever winning the big prize or (most likely) something in between.

I'm yet to be convinced that Max Verstappen will end up at Mercedes, In the interview with Hamilton on channel 4 it was pretty clear that he had a role other than as a driver at Mercedes. He fits the Toto Wolff management style ethos. Verstappen can be a bit of a diva, and would come with his father, Jos Verstappen, who can be a bit of a bruiser by all accounts. Maybe I don't know enough about him but can he do the other side of racing?

Option or Prime wrote:I'm yet to be convinced that Max Verstappen will end up at Mercedes, In the interview with Hamilton on channel 4 it was pretty clear that he had a role other than as a driver at Mercedes. He fits the Toto Wolff management style ethos. Verstappen can be a bit of a diva, and would come with his father, Jos Verstappen, who can be a bit of a bruiser by all accounts. Maybe I don't know enough about him but can he do the other side of racing?

Was Hamilton like that when he came to Mercedes though? Or has he grown into that role whilst there? Verstappen is still younger than Hamilton was when he made his debut. Verstappen still has time to be whatever he wants to be.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:I'm yet to be convinced that Max Verstappen will end up at Mercedes, In the interview with Hamilton on channel 4 it was pretty clear that he had a role other than as a driver at Mercedes. He fits the Toto Wolff management style ethos. Verstappen can be a bit of a diva, and would come with his father, Jos Verstappen, who can be a bit of a bruiser by all accounts. Maybe I don't know enough about him but can he do the other side of racing?

Was Hamilton like that when he came to Mercedes though? Or has he grown into that role whilst there? Verstappen is still younger than Hamilton was when he made his debut. Verstappen still has time to be whatever he wants to be.

Fair point.

Option or Prime wrote:I'm yet to be convinced that Max Verstappen will end up at Mercedes, In the interview with Hamilton on channel 4 it was pretty clear that he had a role other than as a driver at Mercedes. He fits the Toto Wolff management style ethos. Verstappen can be a bit of a diva, and would come with his father, Jos Verstappen, who can be a bit of a bruiser by all accounts. Maybe I don't know enough about him but can he do the other side of racing?

I think Toto and Jos would know more than anyone else about how it would all play out, and the personalities involved. After all Jos and Toto have been friends for years.

ReservoirDog wrote:Looks like he IS worried...

https://www.planetf1.com/news/red-bull- ... concerned/

It's becoming clear Red Bull isn't the car to be in.

i would say it is clear red bull hasn't been the car to be in for a few years. perfect for him at his young age though. as others stated, he has a chance to win now and then, but isn't expected too. he has matured, won races, crashed and lost races....all part of the growing process of a young, extremely talented driver. with no expectation of winning the title due to being at red bull, it has been a pretty darn good spot for him to get started

after next year he will most likely get the chance at a merc or ferrari drive.....the obvious big question for everyone is, who gets the new formula right, out of the gate ? will merc continue its dominance, ferrari start dominating, maybe red bull and honda get it right?

I can't understand how people continue to entertain the thought that Verstappen will have a choice of Merc or Ferrari for 2021.

Leclerc's made Ferrari a closed shop for Verstappen. They're starting to have troubles controlling their drivers now. Verstappen & Leclerc as team mates? That's bound to end well.

As for Merc. The reason they balked at Ricciardo for this year was because they were worried about his impact on team harmony. They were burnt by the Hamilton / Rosberg partnership to the point they're hesitant to risk having another combination on that level. That's why they keep Bottas.

Hamiltons said he reckons he's got 5 yrs left. It'll take retirement or a motivational change on his behalf, or maybe Merc to grow a set, for them to pair Hamilton with Verstappen. It'll also depend on what plans Merc have for Russell or even Ocon.

Verstappen's choices for 2021 could well be limited to RB or oblivion.

Jezza13 wrote:I can't understand how people continue to entertain the thought that Verstappen will have a choice of Merc or Ferrari for 2021.

Leclerc's made Ferrari a closed shop for Verstappen. They're starting to have troubles controlling their drivers now. Verstappen & Leclerc as team mates? That's bound to end well.

As for Merc. The reason they balked at Ricciardo for this year was because they were worried about his impact on team harmony. They were burnt by the Hamilton / Rosberg partnership to the point they're hesitant to risk having another combination on that level. That's why they keep Bottas.

Hamiltons said he reckons he's got 5 yrs left. It'll take retirement or a motivational change on his behalf, or maybe Merc to grow a set, for them to pair Hamilton with Verstappen. It'll also depend on what plans Merc have for Russell or even Ocon.

Verstappen's choices for 2021 could well be limited to RB or oblivion.

I'm inclined to agree. Alonso thought being the best driver in F1 gave him a free choice of teams, and he was wrong. If Max thinks so he'll be proven wrong as well.

Jezza13 wrote:I can't understand how people continue to entertain the thought that Verstappen will have a choice of Merc or Ferrari for 2021.

Leclerc's made Ferrari a closed shop for Verstappen. They're starting to have troubles controlling their drivers now. Verstappen & Leclerc as team mates? That's bound to end well.

As for Merc. The reason they balked at Ricciardo for this year was because they were worried about his impact on team harmony. They were burnt by the Hamilton / Rosberg partnership to the point they're hesitant to risk having another combination on that level. That's why they keep Bottas.

Hamiltons said he reckons he's got 5 yrs left. It'll take retirement or a motivational change on his behalf, or maybe Merc to grow a set, for them to pair Hamilton with Verstappen. It'll also depend on what plans Merc have for Russell or even Ocon.

Verstappen's choices for 2021 could well be limited to RB or oblivion.

I agree with you!

And who can expect Merc to keep winning after 6 years in a row. That is already a record in this sport.
The only way I see Merc taking Max is if Hamilton goes home to McLaren in 2021.
They announced Merc engines and wouldn’t that be a story for him to go back to his original team for his last few years in F1.

Randine wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:I can't understand how people continue to entertain the thought that Verstappen will have a choice of Merc or Ferrari for 2021.

Leclerc's made Ferrari a closed shop for Verstappen. They're starting to have troubles controlling their drivers now. Verstappen & Leclerc as team mates? That's bound to end well.

As for Merc. The reason they balked at Ricciardo for this year was because they were worried about his impact on team harmony. They were burnt by the Hamilton / Rosberg partnership to the point they're hesitant to risk having another combination on that level. That's why they keep Bottas.

Hamiltons said he reckons he's got 5 yrs left. It'll take retirement or a motivational change on his behalf, or maybe Merc to grow a set, for them to pair Hamilton with Verstappen. It'll also depend on what plans Merc have for Russell or even Ocon.

Verstappen's choices for 2021 could well be limited to RB or oblivion.

I agree with you!

And who can expect Merc to keep winning after 6 years in a row. That is already a record in this sport.
The only way I see Merc taking Max is if Hamilton goes home to McLaren in 2021.
They announced Merc engines and wouldn’t that be a story for him to go back to his original team for his last few years in F1.

I agree with both of you about Ferrari being a no go and Merc only being an option if Hamilton retires or moves (I can't see him moving unless it was to another tier 1 team though)
It seems remarkable but a talent like Max might not be able to make it to a top team, at least for a while.

I must be borderline dyslexic, everytime I read this thread title I see, "Verstappen needs his watch back"

I do wonder whether if Hamilton gets to 8 titles but doesn’t yet want to call it a day, might he relish the challenge of Max or one of the other youngsters? After what he said about Rosberg I think he would have to not be the reigning champion when he does finally call it a day, and if he comes out on top, it’s another achievement for him.

-K- wrote:I do wonder whether if Hamilton gets to 8 titles but doesn’t yet want to call it a day, might he relish the challenge of Max or one of the other youngsters? After what he said about Rosberg I think he would have to not be the reigning champion when he does finally call it a day, and if he comes out on top, it’s another achievement for him.

Not sure I agree with this. Wasn't Hamilton's point about Rosberg that everything had to align for him to win the WDC, that won't be the case for Hamilton as a 8x WDC (or a 5x WDC).

I imagine he won't retire as champion though, but not for your reasoning.

Jezza13 wrote:I can't understand how people continue to entertain the thought that Verstappen will have a choice of Merc or Ferrari for 2021.

Leclerc's made Ferrari a closed shop for Verstappen. They're starting to have troubles controlling their drivers now. Verstappen & Leclerc as team mates? That's bound to end well.

As for Merc. The reason they balked at Ricciardo for this year was because they were worried about his impact on team harmony. They were burnt by the Hamilton / Rosberg partnership to the point they're hesitant to risk having another combination on that level. That's why they keep Bottas.

Hamiltons said he reckons he's got 5 yrs left. It'll take retirement or a motivational change on his behalf, or maybe Merc to grow a set, for them to pair Hamilton with Verstappen. It'll also depend on what plans Merc have for Russell or even Ocon.

Verstappen's choices for 2021 could well be limited to RB or oblivion.

i get the top teams want a clear #1 and #2, i just have a feeling both merc and ferrari would sign verstappen so the other one doesn't get him.
all the movement will be interesting along with which team gets it right from the start

JN23 wrote:

-K- wrote:I do wonder whether if Hamilton gets to 8 titles but doesn’t yet want to call it a day, might he relish the challenge of Max or one of the other youngsters? After what he said about Rosberg I think he would have to not be the reigning champion when he does finally call it a day, and if he comes out on top, it’s another achievement for him.

Not sure I agree with this. Wasn't Hamilton's point about Rosberg that everything had to align for him to win the WDC, that won't be the case for Hamilton as a 8x WDC (or a 5x WDC).

I imagine he won't retire as champion though, but not for your reasoning.

He probably did say that, he said that it was the first time Rosberg had beat him in 18 years anyway. I thought there was also a comment about Nico not giving anyone else the opportunity to beat him to the title next year and how he thought differently, hence my thinking.

The only other way I see it happening is if Hamilton signed a contract at some time and then said in advance he would leave at its conclusion, champion or not. If that happened it would give Mercedes or whoever plenty of time to acquire the best driver they could to replace him, be that Max or Charles or anyone else.

Back onto Max and his chances at the top teams. I did read a few weeks ago a comment from Charles that he could see himself at Ferrari for 5 years. I immediately thought, only 5 years? Max could be at Ferrari if Charles decided to try and help another team rise up the ranks or to race elsewhere though.

pc27b wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:I can't understand how people continue to entertain the thought that Verstappen will have a choice of Merc or Ferrari for 2021.

Leclerc's made Ferrari a closed shop for Verstappen. They're starting to have troubles controlling their drivers now. Verstappen & Leclerc as team mates? That's bound to end well.

As for Merc. The reason they balked at Ricciardo for this year was because they were worried about his impact on team harmony. They were burnt by the Hamilton / Rosberg partnership to the point they're hesitant to risk having another combination on that level. That's why they keep Bottas.

Hamiltons said he reckons he's got 5 yrs left. It'll take retirement or a motivational change on his behalf, or maybe Merc to grow a set, for them to pair Hamilton with Verstappen. It'll also depend on what plans Merc have for Russell or even Ocon.

Verstappen's choices for 2021 could well be limited to RB or oblivion.

i get the top teams want a clear #1 and #2, i just have a feeling both merc and ferrari would sign verstappen so the other one doesn't get him.
all the movement will be interesting along with which team gets it right from the start

No-one was rushing to sign up Alonso when he was available. I doubt either Merc or Ferrari would sign a guy who would probably cost them as much in headache medication as he would in salary just so the other guy couldn't get him, especially if their current #1's doing the job.

Merc will only sign Verstappen if it's ok'd by Hamilton. If Leclerc continues on his current trajectory, there'll be no need for Ferrari to even contemplate talking to Verstappen.

I don't even know why we're talking about Merc, Ferrari & Verstappen anyway when it's patently clear that 2021 will signal the dawn of the Renault - Ricciardo era

Ruste13 wrote:I must be borderline dyslexic, everytime I read this thread title I see, "Verstappen needs his watch back"

Ever since I read that I now see the same headline, oddly disturbing

Option or Prime wrote:

Ruste13 wrote:I must be borderline dyslexic, everytime I read this thread title I see, "Verstappen needs his watch back"

Ever since I read that I now see the same headline, oddly disturbing

Same here. I think that if he needs to watch his back, perhaps all he needs to do is is adjust his mirrors. Or just a reminder they are actually there.

Fiki wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

Ruste13 wrote:I must be borderline dyslexic, everytime I read this thread title I see, "Verstappen needs his watch back"

Ever since I read that I now see the same headline, oddly disturbing

Same here. I think that if he needs to watch his back, perhaps all he needs to do is is adjust his mirrors. Or just a reminder they are actually there.

Hahaha.

ReservoirDog wrote: I'd be very surprised if Verstappen is not feeling the heat right now.

I am a big fan of max but he is starting to come out with... some... silly comments. The arrogance and belief in his own level (which is better than any driver on the grid apparently). Max has forgotten how many mistakes he has made in the last 12 months but because he's had a two team mates that struggle to even get close to him... (when Ric would at least put up a fight).... He now thinks he is the best driver by .2 of a second.

Thing is with Leclerk and Hamitlon, they have one thing over Max. That is the multiple world champions team mate they were fighting. We've all seen the best of Vettel and Alonso (among their worst too). Many on that grid valuated Fernando as the best, meaning Lewis's prestige level has a notch higher than some other drivers on the grid.

Max is a talent but unlike the other two, he has yet to have a real challenging team mate that we know can win a title. I still hope we get a LeClerk, Max or Hamilton partnership in the same team. If Max is worth .2 more than those two drivers... it also makes a bit of a mockery of their team mates...

And Max reminds me of Vettel a little bit, the new prodigal son. We've seen what can go badly for Vettel when he isn't being cuddled. Max has Horner and Marko holding his hand outside of the car. Max might not do so well in a team like Ferrari that expect results and very few mistakes, we also know they don't cuddle their drivers. Likewise at Merc.

Leclerc might look good now, but another 3-4 years without a Ferrari WDC and they will change drivers again. Verstappen has time but he may have to wait for a seat at Mercedes oor for Honda to make another big gain. 2021 won't be a a massive shake up from what I have seen, but ground effect ought to make overtaking more possible.

There is a lot of great young talent in F1, which is very exciting. I still think that Max is one of the top drivers, but Leclerc came in at the right place at the right time, and I would guess he gets a championship before Max. I heard a NFL QB say performance is like elevators in a building. When you first come into a professional league, your reflexes and stamina are at the top floor, but your experience and knowledge of the sport is at the bottom floor. Reflexes and stamina decline each year, but your knowledge and experience increase each year, and when those two factors equalize, it is then that you are at the top of your game as a professional athlete. In my opinion, Max is getting to that point. Weather Red Bull can provide a world championship winning car is yet to be seen, I read that they have stopped developing the 2019 car to put all resources on the 2020 car, but I say we don't see him really challenging for a world driver championship until 2021. But you can be sure that in the next couple of years he will be driving for a top team, so think he's in a great position.

I think that Leclerc is in a more precarious position and needs to watch his back. Next year Leclerc and Vettel are going to be trading points all year and it's going to be a real fight. I don't think Vettel is finished yet, so how does that battle end? One driver will be loved by Ferrari and one driver will be spurned. If it ends up that it's Leclerc that gets spurned, where does he go from there? Is Leclerc good enough to pick a fight and go head to head with Vettel? I guess time will tell, either way it's Leclerc watching his back for the next season, and Verstappen getting to pick which team he wants to drive for in 2021.

Excellent discussion. I can't wait to see what happens.

Ruste13 wrote:I must be borderline dyslexic, everytime I read this thread title I see, "Verstappen needs his watch back"

Me too.

Teddy007 wrote:

ReservoirDog wrote: I'd be very surprised if Verstappen is not feeling the heat right now.

I am a big fan of max but he is starting to come out with... some... silly comments. The arrogance and belief in his own level (which is better than any driver on the grid apparently). Max has forgotten how many mistakes he has made in the last 12 months but because he's had a two team mates that struggle to even get close to him... (when Ric would at least put up a fight).... He now thinks he is the best driver by .2 of a second.

Thing is with Leclerk and Hamitlon, they have one thing over Max. That is the multiple world champions team mate they were fighting. We've all seen the best of Vettel and Alonso (among their worst too). Many on that grid valuated Fernando as the best, meaning Lewis's prestige level has a notch higher than some other drivers on the grid.

Max is a talent but unlike the other two, he has yet to have a real challenging team mate that we know can win a title. I still hope we get a LeClerk, Max or Hamilton partnership in the same team. If Max is worth .2 more than those two drivers... it also makes a bit of a mockery of their team mates...

And Max reminds me of Vettel a little bit, the new prodigal son. We've seen what can go badly for Vettel when he isn't being cuddled. Max has Horner and Marko holding his hand outside of the car. Max might not do so well in a team like Ferrari that expect results and very few mistakes, we also know they don't cuddle their drivers. Likewise at Merc.

Well you know what they say about anything said before the word "but".

Teddy007 wrote:

ReservoirDog wrote: I'd be very surprised if Verstappen is not feeling the heat right now.

I am a big fan of max but he is starting to come out with... some... silly comments. The arrogance and belief in his own level (which is better than any driver on the grid apparently). Max has forgotten how many mistakes he has made in the last 12 months but because he's had a two team mates that struggle to even get close to him... (when Ric would at least put up a fight).... He now thinks he is the best driver by .2 of a second.

Thing is with Leclerk and Hamitlon, they have one thing over Max. That is the multiple world champions team mate they were fighting. We've all seen the best of Vettel and Alonso (among their worst too). Many on that grid valuated Fernando as the best, meaning Lewis's prestige level has a notch higher than some other drivers on the grid.

Max is a talent but unlike the other two, he has yet to have a real challenging team mate that we know can win a title. I still hope we get a LeClerk, Max or Hamilton partnership in the same team. If Max is worth .2 more than those two drivers... it also makes a bit of a mockery of their team mates...

And Max reminds me of Vettel a little bit, the new prodigal son. We've seen what can go badly for Vettel when he isn't being cuddled. Max has Horner and Marko holding his hand outside of the car. Max might not do so well in a team like Ferrari that expect results and very few mistakes, we also know they don't cuddle their drivers. Likewise at Merc.

Three things here -

Aren't Red Bull known for being the least cuddly team around? Isn't Marko accused of being too harsh with the young drivers?

Surely Leclerc has made as many mistakes in the past 12 months as Verstappen?

He has beaten Ricciardo. Who of course was able to beat Vettel.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Teddy007 wrote:

ReservoirDog wrote: I'd be very surprised if Verstappen is not feeling the heat right now.

I am a big fan of max but he is starting to come out with... some... silly comments. The arrogance and belief in his own level (which is better than any driver on the grid apparently). Max has forgotten how many mistakes he has made in the last 12 months but because he's had a two team mates that struggle to even get close to him... (when Ric would at least put up a fight).... He now thinks he is the best driver by .2 of a second.

Thing is with Leclerk and Hamitlon, they have one thing over Max. That is the multiple world champions team mate they were fighting. We've all seen the best of Vettel and Alonso (among their worst too). Many on that grid valuated Fernando as the best, meaning Lewis's prestige level has a notch higher than some other drivers on the grid.

Max is a talent but unlike the other two, he has yet to have a real challenging team mate that we know can win a title. I still hope we get a LeClerk, Max or Hamilton partnership in the same team. If Max is worth .2 more than those two drivers... it also makes a bit of a mockery of their team mates...

And Max reminds me of Vettel a little bit, the new prodigal son. We've seen what can go badly for Vettel when he isn't being cuddled. Max has Horner and Marko holding his hand outside of the car. Max might not do so well in a team like Ferrari that expect results and very few mistakes, we also know they don't cuddle their drivers. Likewise at Merc.

Three things here -

Aren't Red Bull known for being the least cuddly team around? Isn't Marko accused of being too harsh with the young drivers?

Surely Leclerc has made as many mistakes in the past 12 months as Verstappen?

He has beaten Ricciardo. Who of course was able to beat Vettel.

A few counter points.

1) Depending who you are & your talent window, I think with Marko you're either the golden child or the retarded cousin. What other team boss would so blatantly throw one of his drivers under a bus so as to keep the other content (See Turkey 2010 & Baku 2018 as examples)?

2) Probably has but he's also only in his 2nd year in F1 in a team that's not built around him. Verstappen on the other hand is now in his 5th season in the sport & has the entire RB F1 organisation working for him.

3) Verstappen did beat Ricciardo but I will say, & I know i'm in the minority here, I firmly believe, taking a holistic view of the situation, the final scoreline flatters Verstappen very, very much.

Jezza13 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Teddy007 wrote:

ReservoirDog wrote: I'd be very surprised if Verstappen is not feeling the heat right now.

I am a big fan of max but he is starting to come out with... some... silly comments. The arrogance and belief in his own level (which is better than any driver on the grid apparently). Max has forgotten how many mistakes he has made in the last 12 months but because he's had a two team mates that struggle to even get close to him... (when Ric would at least put up a fight).... He now thinks he is the best driver by .2 of a second.

Thing is with Leclerk and Hamitlon, they have one thing over Max. That is the multiple world champions team mate they were fighting. We've all seen the best of Vettel and Alonso (among their worst too). Many on that grid valuated Fernando as the best, meaning Lewis's prestige level has a notch higher than some other drivers on the grid.

Max is a talent but unlike the other two, he has yet to have a real challenging team mate that we know can win a title. I still hope we get a LeClerk, Max or Hamilton partnership in the same team. If Max is worth .2 more than those two drivers... it also makes a bit of a mockery of their team mates...

And Max reminds me of Vettel a little bit, the new prodigal son. We've seen what can go badly for Vettel when he isn't being cuddled. Max has Horner and Marko holding his hand outside of the car. Max might not do so well in a team like Ferrari that expect results and very few mistakes, we also know they don't cuddle their drivers. Likewise at Merc.

Three things here -

Aren't Red Bull known for being the least cuddly team around? Isn't Marko accused of being too harsh with the young drivers?

Surely Leclerc has made as many mistakes in the past 12 months as Verstappen?

He has beaten Ricciardo. Who of course was able to beat Vettel.

A few counter points.

1) Depending who you are & your talent window, I think with Marko you're either the golden child or the retarded cousin. What other team boss would so blatantly throw one of his drivers under a bus so as to keep the other content (See Turkey 2010 & Baku 2018 as examples)?

2) Probably has but he's also only in his 2nd year in F1 in a team that's not built around him. Verstappen on the other hand is now in his 5th season in the sport & has the entire RB F1 organisation working for him.

3) Verstappen did beat Ricciardo but I will say, & I know i'm in the minority here, I firmly believe, taking a holistic view of the situation, the final scoreline flatters Verstappen very, very much.

I think fundamentally the driver comparisons show that Verstappen is currently a chunk better than Leclerc. Leclerc is much less experienced though so you would certainly expect that gap to close over the next few seasons.

I would reject that Verstappen is in any kind of cuddly environment. He is in the same position as the other Red Bull drivers. Succeed or you're out. The difference is Verstappen does succeed. So if he is in a better position that the others it certainly isn't down to luck.

The only danger is he “Alonso’s” himself, that being he is blocked from joining numerous teams despite being recognised as the best. It’s the only time in F1 history I can recall arguably the best driver on the grid unable to get himself into a top car for the best part of a decade - circa 2011-2019.

This is largely due to Red Bulls drive program and in part Alonso’s somewhat toxic tendencies. In the past, if you were quick, you would always find a way to the best cars. A few tops seats will open up in the next 3-4 years including both Mercedes seats, probably a Ferrari seat in the next 1-2 seasons too.

The only thing Verstappen has to watch out for is a seat on another team if Red bull and Honda don't become more competitive. For the moment it seems he is being hailed as the best of the New School and the fact that Leclerc is winning in a Ferrari is of no consequence to Verstappen's reputation in terms of ability, because it's common knowledge that he's not in the best car and is doing exceedingly well despite that and has taken wins from the top 2 cars/teams. If we put both of them in the same car Verstappen might likely have the edge, either through sheer ability or via brute force and intimidation bred from his over aggression, but who knows?… Leclerc might in fact be better than Verstappen in the way of mental focus and could potentially beat Verstappen with mind games to gain the upper hand.

At times right now Leclerc is struggling a tad mentally because the guy he's teamed up with is seemingly impervious to mental games and he can't get under his skin, but Leclerc and Verstappen are of similar age and have a history, and Leclerc has won at times leaving Verstappen seething and annoyed while Leclerc smiles and gets on with business.

As for Alonso, he shot himself in the foot while at McLaren because instead of shutting up and putting his head down to fight the rookie phenom, Lewis Hamilton, he resorted to whining and demanding preference and was the beginning of the end for his dismissal and the only available seat was at the now struggling Renault and he had to remain there until the Ferrari seat opened up. And when it did the car wasn't bad, but it wasn't great, yet still he did exceedingly well with what he had. He should have allowed Vettel to take the seat at Ferrari and taken Red Bull up on their offer and he might have racked up a few more championships. So that scenario right there disproves the notion that he wasn't offered top seats in F1, but rather, that he turned down offers to drive for Ferrari… Which is clearly EVERY driver's dream.

After Ferrari imploded he had just one place to go which was McLaren under the allure of the once glorious juggernaut that was McLaren-Honda, potentially rearing it's head again.
Sadly, he didn't hang on long enough to enjoy any success with McLaren the 2nd time around but what we did get to see from him was how clearly better he was than anyone in the other car.
While I feel his antics and politics ruining every team he drove for, I think that can only be said of Ferrari because at Renault he didn't ruffle any feathers during either stint with the outfit, and
at McLaren an all out civil war ensued and he overreacted and he made poor decisions that cost him his seat with the team and the team itself received the largest fine int he history of all sport.
His 2nd stint with McLaren was only made strenuous out of his sheer frustration with Honda falling considerably short of the mark, and his ill-advised public vocalization upset them and they
chose to partner up with Red Bull instead, leaving McLaren with Renault engines. His management team is just as much to blame, if not more so, for Alonso not getting better seats, and other,
less loyal drivers would have cut ties with their management in the quest to land better offers/deals. And while it sadly hurt his legacy a bit, that shows real character.

Jezza13 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Teddy007 wrote:

ReservoirDog wrote: I'd be very surprised if Verstappen is not feeling the heat right now.

I am a big fan of max but he is starting to come out with... some... silly comments. The arrogance and belief in his own level (which is better than any driver on the grid apparently). Max has forgotten how many mistakes he has made in the last 12 months but because he's had a two team mates that struggle to even get close to him... (when Ric would at least put up a fight).... He now thinks he is the best driver by .2 of a second.

Thing is with Leclerk and Hamitlon, they have one thing over Max. That is the multiple world champions team mate they were fighting. We've all seen the best of Vettel and Alonso (among their worst too). Many on that grid valuated Fernando as the best, meaning Lewis's prestige level has a notch higher than some other drivers on the grid.

Max is a talent but unlike the other two, he has yet to have a real challenging team mate that we know can win a title. I still hope we get a LeClerk, Max or Hamilton partnership in the same team. If Max is worth .2 more than those two drivers... it also makes a bit of a mockery of their team mates...

And Max reminds me of Vettel a little bit, the new prodigal son. We've seen what can go badly for Vettel when he isn't being cuddled. Max has Horner and Marko holding his hand outside of the car. Max might not do so well in a team like Ferrari that expect results and very few mistakes, we also know they don't cuddle their drivers. Likewise at Merc.

Three things here -

Aren't Red Bull known for being the least cuddly team around? Isn't Marko accused of being too harsh with the young drivers?

Surely Leclerc has made as many mistakes in the past 12 months as Verstappen?

He has beaten Ricciardo. Who of course was able to beat Vettel.

A few counter points.

1) Depending who you are & your talent window, I think with Marko you're either the golden child or the retarded cousin. What other team boss would so blatantly throw one of his drivers under a bus so as to keep the other content (See Turkey 2010 & Baku 2018 as examples)?

2) Probably has but he's also only in his 2nd year in F1 in a team that's not built around him. Verstappen on the other hand is now in his 5th season in the sport & has the entire RB F1 organisation working for him.

3) Verstappen did beat Ricciardo but I will say, & I know i'm in the minority here, I firmly believe, taking a holistic view of the situation, the final scoreline flatters Verstappen very, very much.

Re point 3, I agree!

What most people do not take into account is that Dan was at Red Bull for 5 years.
And when did he join? Right on the back of them winning 4 championships in a row.

Imagine the excitement joining Red Bull for 2014. Thinking I have a real shot at the title.

When Dan had something to prove (mainly 2014), he was amazing.
Then year after year Red Bull talked up the next year how they would be contenders again, only for Dan to not get the right equipment, for 5 years.

Dan beat Max 2 years out of 3, and in the end was sick of waiting for a real title shot.

Now Max is about to hit his 5th year at Red Bull, everyone expects him to jump ship.
But how much flak did Dan cop for doing the same last year?

And what if Max does go to Merc and the same thing happens to him as happened to Dan, that is Merc slip backwards and don’t win a championship for 6+ years.
Do you think that might effect Max’s motivation? I certainly do.

Just like Dan’s motivation at Red Bull was lacking a little in his last year, which flattered Max.