Ferrari team orders in Russia

Bobafett · Post by **Bobafett** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:24 am

I know Vettel went against team orders but there were a few thoughts I had on it

Regardless of whether we as fans think he should have gave LeClerc the position back or not the timing was wrong, as the commentary team said it would have put Vettel at too much risk from Hamilton

I keep thinking that any time orders like that have been implemented (or at least suggested) the driver behind has been all over the driver infront gearbox but be it engine modes, driving style or whatever Vettel was just in the zone like his Red Bull days

If you looked at how much faster Vettel was.. To expect him to stay behind LeClerc was crazy, regardless of prematch team instruction, such pre match discussions didn't take into account Vetel genuinely being faster in general and whenever we have had team orders it's usually because the driver behind is or believes he's faster anyway which LeClerc wasn't, it was a pre arranged plan that didn't take race pace into consideration

Actually in this case would have been easier to swap with an undercut (like what happened), or done it once they were not as under threat of the mercs

Sounds crazy but this was a race strategy that worked well.. Only in theory.. At least its execution would have been

ALESI · Post by **ALESI** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:27 am

I couldn't really understand why Vettel would have agreed to this strategy anyway... he had effectively got himself in a good position to exploit the tow, so why would he agree?

ManicOversteer · Post by **ManicOversteer** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:42 am

I haven't logged into the forum for a long time but felt strongly enough about this one to look up my old password.
Hamilton was 2-3 seconds behind Leclerc during the entire argument. If Vettel had moved over then Hamilton would have been within 1.5 seconds of a Ferrari, probably even DRS range. If they were going to switch then fair enough but at that early stage of the race it was just stupidity to even ask.
Worth noting that at no point did Vettel say he absolutely would not move over. His concern was solely about Hamilton. Surely even he knew they could just give Leclerc the undercut so he wasn't the maniacal manipulator, defying team orders because they don't apply to him, like some have made him out to be. If he had moved over then Hamilton would have got him too and the internet would be condemning Ferrari even more.
If both Ferraris had just got on with it, and the K problem not surfaced, then they would have pulled away (slowly) from Hamilton, swapped them at the pits, and be in prime position to fight together against Hamilton coming at them on the soft tires.

Option or Prime · Post by **Option or Prime** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:44 am

Much as I feel that Vettel clearly is and was untrustworthy it is not him that I blame. To put someone at the head of a field as an experienced champion in the fastest car and expect him to give it up is not a plan anyone should expect to be honoured.
I blame Ferrari for being so weak and nïave as to consider it a plan. They should have said "do it if you want but you both have to accept the consequences".
Leclerc will never do that again and will be asking some pretty pointed questions of his race management team.

Ferrari were pathetic on the radio and it does the sport no good at all to look so fixed. Having rewatched the race its clear that Vettel was having a 'burst of form' and Leclerc either let him go or couldn't respond. If he couldn't respond then I'm not sure I understand what happened as CL has consistently been faster in recent races.

Leclerc learned a lesson and despite the agreement Vettel's impulsiveness took over, on Vettel's part I'm not sure how Ferrari respond to his belligerence, I suspect they will allow themselves to be bullied but if they want to seriously challenge for titles they need to get a grip.

Black_Flag_11 · Post by **Black_Flag_11** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:00 am

ALESI wrote:I couldn't really understand why Vettel would have agreed to this strategy anyway... he had effectively got himself in a good position to exploit the tow, so why would he agree?

Yeah it doesn't quite add up.

Vettel said that he thinks he stuck to what was agreed pre race. Now he could be lying of course but why would he agree to get by in turn 1 and then give the position back, with how hard it is to overtake that's basically agreeing to P2 before the race begins.

Not only that but theres a very real chance starting P3 in Sochi that he would take the lead regardless of what Leclerc did. So why would he give that chance up before the race even starts.

Ferrari should have simply said "we want to be 1-2 after the first corner, dont fight eachother and let Hamilton through" and let them get on with it, what they did was a very strange way of going about it.

Teddy007 · Post by **Teddy007** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:31 am

Everyone spent the time moaning about team orders over at Merc, for their obvious number 1 choice and results that are close to bagging another drivers/constructors.

Over at Ferrari, when they obviously had agreements in place.. Vettel ignored it. Don't think anyone can blame him. It could have caused a problem. Then again, following these cars within 1-2 seconds on a racing line can also cause issues. Unless the car is that much faster or tyres are working better etc..

Ferrari made the mistake of making this to begin with.
We don't actually know what would have happened if LeClerk didn't have it in his mind to help his team mate (I've done this on games enough to help certain drivers) and it doesn't always work out.
Vettel had a choice
Ferrari had a choice

This is big issue for Ferrari and for once it isn't the press. The radio transmissions went on and on and on.

What now? LeCerk won't be doing any favours for Vettel at all. This is reminiscent or Merc Nico Vs Merc Lewis. The engineering teams got swapped over because it was one side of the garage Vs another. Ferrari will need to nip this in the bud. Unlike Merc, the advantage Ferrari occasionally have isn't a large one. A small mistake, wrong call etc = The other team is there to pounce.

Ferrari doing what Ferrari have done since Fernando left.. imploding. I love it. Spices up the sport.

Merc have decided a clear number 1 for obvious reasons. RBR have done the same. Ferrari though.. don't seem to be willing to make the choice... or do they..

shoot999 · Post by **shoot999** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:51 am

Teddy007 wrote:Everyone spent the time moaning about team orders over at Merc, for their obvious number 1 choice and results that are close to bagging another drivers/constructors.

Over at Ferrari, when they obviously had agreements in place.. Vettel ignored it. Don't think anyone can blame him. It could have caused a problem. Then again, following these cars within 1-2 seconds on a racing line can also cause issues. Unless the car is that much faster or tyres are working better etc..

Ferrari made the mistake of making this to begin with.
We don't actually know what would have happened if LeClerk didn't have it in his mind to help his team mate (I've done this on games enough to help certain drivers) and it doesn't always work out.
Vettel had a choice
Ferrari had a choice

This is big issue for Ferrari and for once it isn't the press. The radio transmissions went on and on and on.

What now? LeCerk won't be doing any favours for Vettel at all. This is reminiscent or Merc Nico Vs Merc Lewis. The engineering teams got swapped over because it was one side of the garage Vs another. Ferrari will need to nip this in the bud. Unlike Merc, the advantage Ferrari occasionally have isn't a large one. A small mistake, wrong call etc = The other team is there to pounce.

Ferrari doing what Ferrari have done since Fernando left.. imploding. I love it. Spices up the sport.

Merc have decided a clear number 1 for obvious reasons. RBR have done the same. Ferrari though.. don't seem to be willing to make the choice... or do they..

To be fair to Ferrari, in respect of RB and Merc the choice of number one has always been pretty much a no brainer; despite a few trying to 'sell' Bottas as some sort of rival to Ham. Ferrari have a different problem, the number one driver slot is changing (you could argue it has already changed), and its being played out over a season in few view of the press and public.

As Button put it, you probably won't find one contract within F1 that dictates who is No 1; or indeed No 2, but everyone within the teams and wider paddock knows exactly who is the No 1 within each team. And at Ferrari it's Leclerc.

It was interesting listening to Button, De Resta and Davidson over the weekend on this subject. Quite a lot of sympathy for Vettel as they have all been there, but the killer remark for me was 'he (Vettel) is now an outsider in his own team'.

Black_Flag_11 · Post by **Black_Flag_11** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:10 am

Teddy007 wrote: What now? LeCerk won't be doing any favours for Vettel at all.

That already seemed to be the case if you look at Monza. What we now know is that Vettel got a wake up call then, Leclerc is a nice guy but he has shown he has the ruthless/political mindset of a champion when required.

We now know neither driver will be doing the other any favours, its gloves off now, Leclerc was on another level through the mid season but if Vettel can consistently perform around the level he did yesterday it could get tasty.

Option or Prime · Post by **Option or Prime** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:16 am

Its almost as though Leclerc is going through a list of "can I do this yes/no" then seeing the responses, even in matters like commenting on the radio, thing is he is nearing the end of that list now.

Bobafett · Post by **Bobafett** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:28 am

I would love to know the exact wording of the agreement.. I get the feeling it was let Vettel get the slipstream and pass and if he doesn't pull away from you then we will swap (a strategy many teams seem to do these days) but it's like LeClerc just took it as I let Vettel through then he gives up position

I remember Canada 2005 when Alonso said to the reanault pit wall I'm faster than Giancarlo.. They replyed basicly.. Well pass him then, Ferrari should told LeClerc if close the gap first at least

Vettel actually might have expected LeClerc to be closer to him, there's so many factors wrong here

ManicOversteer · Post by **ManicOversteer** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:06 am

Has anyone said that Vettel was NEVER going to give the place back?
I don't think even Vettel has said it.

So I don't know how Leclerc or the team can lose trust.
Vettel couldn't move over at that early stage because of how close Hamilton was.

And they worked it out anyway. Leclerc got the undercut and so took the lead. If Vettel's car hadn't broken down then they would have only had to fend off Hamilton on the soft tyres to take the one-two.

Option or Prime · Post by **Option or Prime** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:22 am

ManicOversteer wrote:Has anyone said that Vettel was NEVER going to give the place back?
I don't think even Vettel has said it.

So I don't know how Leclerc or the team can lose trust.
Vettel couldn't move over at that early stage because of how close Hamilton was.

And they worked it out anyway. Leclerc got the undercut and so took the lead. If Vettel's car hadn't broken down then they would have only had to fend off Hamilton on the soft tyres to take the one-two.

Realistically if he doesn't swap early he is hardly going to swap later when the end of the race is in sight!

ManicOversteer · Post by **ManicOversteer** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:28 am

Option or Prime wrote:
ManicOversteer wrote:Has anyone said that Vettel was NEVER going to give the place back?
I don't think even Vettel has said it.

So I don't know how Leclerc or the team can lose trust.
Vettel couldn't move over at that early stage because of how close Hamilton was.

And they worked it out anyway. Leclerc got the undercut and so took the lead. If Vettel's car hadn't broken down then they would have only had to fend off Hamilton on the soft tyres to take the one-two.
Realistically if he doesn't swap early he is hardly going to swap later when the end of the race is in sight!

But the point is that he couldn't swap early, Hamilton was too close. As said in commentary, swaps are not completed early in the race when the pack is close together. Leclerc never had a gap to Hamilton for Vettel to drop into.

froze · Post by **froze** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:58 am

Bobafett wrote:If you looked at how much faster Vettel was.. To expect him to stay behind LeClerc was crazy, regardless of prematch team instruction, such pre match discussions didn't take into account Vetel genuinely being faster in general and whenever we have had team orders it's usually because the driver behind is or believes he's faster anyway which LeClerc wasn't, it was a pre arranged plan that didn't take race pace into consideration

Although I do think it was a weird situation to be implementing team orders and I'd rather see the drivers race, I have to disagree with Vettel being faster than Leclerc. The only time Vettel was faster was in the start, where he got a tow and got past Leclerc. After this Leclerc held within 2 seconds of Vettel, waiting for the team orders. If Vettel really was that much faster, he should've been able to pull away from Leclerc. Also, we all know how hard it is to follow, as you saw how Leclerc couldn't overtake Bottas after the SC, even though Leclerc drove purple sectors before getting stuck behind Bottas' gearbox.

Yellowbin74 · Post by **Yellowbin74** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:30 pm

I think that as soon as Ferrari discussed their "plans", Seb had one thing in mind - he was ALWAYS going to say "I just got a good start so I deserve to stay here", regardless of whether it was true or not.

I also can't help but feel that Seb thrashed his car so much to build a gap, that it contributed to his failure.

Doing the undercut was the only way to switch this, as Lewis was far too close to risk it on track - and this is where the Ferrari strategy failed. They should have realised this straight away and laid down the law - instead there was much back and forth, with Seb leading most of the negotiations. Or, they don't swap and have to accept that Charles would be pretty angry afterwards. Either way they messed around too much.

I reckon the next few races will be pretty spicy..

Caserole of Nonsense · Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:13 pm

As i have said many times in the past, just let them race. simple. dont run into each other is the only rule. the only time to even think about team orders is after the final stop. far less problems overall doing it this way.

the main problem with yesterday was that it was unfair on leclerc as he didnt fight for position into turn 2 because of the arrangement. vettel was always going to pass hamilton if he got a decent start and so there was no point having a stupid agreement. leclerc would have stayed inside and made vettel go the long way round so i understand him being annoyed.

Siao7 · Post by **Siao7** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:34 pm

froze wrote:
Bobafett wrote:If you looked at how much faster Vettel was.. To expect him to stay behind LeClerc was crazy, regardless of prematch team instruction, such pre match discussions didn't take into account Vetel genuinely being faster in general and whenever we have had team orders it's usually because the driver behind is or believes he's faster anyway which LeClerc wasn't, it was a pre arranged plan that didn't take race pace into consideration
Although I do think it was a weird situation to be implementing team orders and I'd rather see the drivers race, I have to disagree with Vettel being faster than Leclerc. The only time Vettel was faster was in the start, where he got a tow and got past Leclerc. After this Leclerc held within 2 seconds of Vettel, waiting for the team orders. If Vettel really was that much faster, he should've been able to pull away from Leclerc. Also, we all know how hard it is to follow, as you saw how Leclerc couldn't overtake Bottas after the SC, even though Leclerc drove purple sectors before getting stuck behind Bottas' gearbox.

I am not sure about this. Apart from laps 2 & 3, Vettel was gaining steadily up until lap 21 (before CL's pit), where he was up to 4.2 sec ahead according to this:

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... %20Leclerc

F1 Racer · Post by **F1 Racer** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:56 pm

I don't really get this whole idea of Leclerc 'letting' Vettel have a slipstream at the start. Surely this is just something that occurs naturally due to the laws of physics and air flow etc.

For example if Hamilton had used the slipstream at the start to pass Leclerc, (if LH had made a better start), then this wouldn't have been considered as Leclerc 'letting' Hamilton have a slipstream. So I don't get why Vettel passes Leclerc in the same way why this is treated differently. For me it was a fair and square pass.

The only reason that I would see for switching the order of these two at some point in the race would have been for fair payback for Singapore when Vettel was allowed to get ahead of Leclerc 'unfairly', so to allow Leclerc to undercut Vettel at the stops, (like what ultimately actually happened), would have been equal treatment and reasonable. However the rationale for wanting to switch the cars seemed unrelated to Singapore and instead more about this allowing of a slipstream at the start. I see no reason for there to have been an agreement in place for this. It's just created an unnecessary political situation where there didn't need to be one.

ReservoirDog · Post by **ReservoirDog** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:16 pm

shoot999 wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:Everyone spent the time moaning about team orders over at Merc, for their obvious number 1 choice and results that are close to bagging another drivers/constructors.

Over at Ferrari, when they obviously had agreements in place.. Vettel ignored it. Don't think anyone can blame him. It could have caused a problem. Then again, following these cars within 1-2 seconds on a racing line can also cause issues. Unless the car is that much faster or tyres are working better etc..

Ferrari made the mistake of making this to begin with.
We don't actually know what would have happened if LeClerk didn't have it in his mind to help his team mate (I've done this on games enough to help certain drivers) and it doesn't always work out.
Vettel had a choice
Ferrari had a choice

This is big issue for Ferrari and for once it isn't the press. The radio transmissions went on and on and on.

What now? LeCerk won't be doing any favours for Vettel at all. This is reminiscent or Merc Nico Vs Merc Lewis. The engineering teams got swapped over because it was one side of the garage Vs another. Ferrari will need to nip this in the bud. Unlike Merc, the advantage Ferrari occasionally have isn't a large one. A small mistake, wrong call etc = The other team is there to pounce.

Ferrari doing what Ferrari have done since Fernando left.. imploding. I love it. Spices up the sport.

Merc have decided a clear number 1 for obvious reasons. RBR have done the same. Ferrari though.. don't seem to be willing to make the choice... or do they..
To be fair to Ferrari, in respect of RB and Merc the choice of number one has always been pretty much a no brainer; despite a few trying to 'sell' Bottas as some sort of rival to Ham. Ferrari have a different problem, the number one driver slot is changing (you could argue it has already changed), and its being played out over a season in few view of the press and public.

As Button put it, you probably won't find one contract within F1 that dictates who is No 1; or indeed No 2, but everyone within the teams and wider paddock knows exactly who is the No 1 within each team. And at Ferrari it's Leclerc.

It was interesting listening to Button, De Resta and Davidson over the weekend on this subject. Quite a lot of sympathy for Vettel as they have all been there, but the killer remark for me was 'he (Vettel) is now an outsider in his own team'.

Who said that? Button? That's what I have been feeling about him for the last few races. Seems I am not the only one who sees it like this.

Johnson · Post by **Johnson** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:17 pm

I don’t think it has been mentioned but part of Vettels agreement to the slipstream deal might have been to do with Singapore. A bit of a pay back.

I think without Singapore, Russia would not have played out with that. Ferrari basically gave Leclerc the Russia win gift wrapped in return for kind of screwing him in Singapore.

DFWdude · Post by **DFWdude** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:09 pm

Ferrari needs to realize they can't orchestrate races in general, or team orders in specific. Let them race. Once taking the lead, Vettel posted at least 5 Fastest Laps prior to the pit stops. He was clearly faster.

LeClerc is a fine driver... seems much better in control of is mind than Verstappen ever was. But he's no 4-time WDC, yet. These younger drivers will appreciate their accomplishments more when they earn it on merit. Whining like a child doesn't cut it.

Johnson · Post by **Johnson** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:59 pm

DFWdude wrote:Ferrari needs to realize they can't orchestrate races in general, or team orders in specific. Let them race. Once taking the lead, Vettel posted at least 5 Fastest Laps prior to the pit stops. He was clearly faster.

LeClerc is a fine driver... seems much better in control of is mind than Verstappen ever was. But he's no 4-time WDC, yet. These younger drivers will appreciate their accomplishments more when they earn it on merit. Whining like a child doesn't cut it.

Vettel built a 4.5 second lead, he had about 0.2 advantage but im not too sure how hard each were pushing because once Leclerc was told it will be plan C he completely cooled down and it seemed he knew he was getting the undercut and race lead.

Races are won on saturday as much as Sunday, Russian is the only track in the entire season that the person starting in P3 can take the lead whilst making an equal start to the leader. Vettel didn’t get a better start than Leclerc, it was almost identical. Leclerc is the better package for winning races at the moment. Being 0.5 quicker in qualifying and 0.1 slower in the race is better than the other way around. At no other track would Vettel have taken the lead and he isn’t showing 4x WDC qualifying speed this year.

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:15 pm

Johnson wrote:
DFWdude wrote:Ferrari needs to realize they can't orchestrate races in general, or team orders in specific. Let them race. Once taking the lead, Vettel posted at least 5 Fastest Laps prior to the pit stops. He was clearly faster.

LeClerc is a fine driver... seems much better in control of is mind than Verstappen ever was. But he's no 4-time WDC, yet. These younger drivers will appreciate their accomplishments more when they earn it on merit. Whining like a child doesn't cut it.
Vettel built a 4.5 second lead, he had about 0.2 advantage but im not too sure how hard each were pushing because once Leclerc was told it will be plan C he completely cooled down and it seemed he knew he was getting the undercut and race lead.

Races are won on saturday as much as Sunday, Russian is the only track in the entire season that the person starting in P3 can take the lead whilst making an equal start to the leader. Vettel didn’t get a better start than Leclerc, it was almost identical. Leclerc is the better package for winning races at the moment. Being 0.5 quicker in qualifying and 0.1 slower in the race is better than the other way around. At no other track would Vettel have taken the lead and he isn’t showing 4x WDC qualifying speed this year.

Haa I get you so he was intentionally losing time to Hamilton!

Also it was Vettel going to plan C, and the slower race pace was why he lost the race.

trento · Post by **trento** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:22 am

ALESI wrote:I couldn't really understand why Vettel would have agreed to this strategy anyway... he had effectively got himself in a good position to exploit the tow, so why would he agree?

to guarantee himself p1 at the end of lap 1 and beyond. as for disobeying team orders, it's not surprising given his track record.

trento · Post by **trento** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:24 am

DFWdude wrote:Ferrari needs to realize they can't orchestrate races in general, or team orders in specific. Let them race. Once taking the lead, Vettel posted at least 5 Fastest Laps prior to the pit stops. He was clearly faster.

LeClerc is a fine driver... seems much better in control of is mind than Verstappen ever was. But he's no 4-time WDC, yet. These younger drivers will appreciate their accomplishments more when they earn it on merit. Whining like a child doesn't cut it.

no one can tell if Leclerc couldn't have done the same being in front but i agree. let them race, especially at the first stint

trento · Post by **trento** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:26 am

Yellowbin74 wrote:I think that as soon as Ferrari discussed their "plans", Seb had one thing in mind - he was ALWAYS going to say "I just got a good start so I deserve to stay here", regardless of whether it was true or not.

I also can't help but feel that Seb thrashed his car so much to build a gap, that it contributed to his failure.

Doing the undercut was the only way to switch this, as Lewis was far too close to risk it on track - and this is where the Ferrari strategy failed. They should have realised this straight away and laid down the law - instead there was much back and forth, with Seb leading most of the negotiations. Or, they don't swap and have to accept that Charles would be pretty angry afterwards. Either way they messed around too much.

I reckon the next few races will be pretty spicy..

it's possible to do it end of lap 1. the gap wasn't really big yet and Seb would not lose much time. After a few laps, it's pointless cos the lead Seb built shouldn't just disappear.

trento · Post by **trento** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:32 am

F1 Racer wrote:I don't really get this whole idea of Leclerc 'letting' Vettel have a slipstream at the start. Surely this is just something that occurs naturally due to the laws of physics and air flow etc.

For example if Hamilton had used the slipstream at the start to pass Leclerc, (if LH had made a better start), then this wouldn't have been considered as Leclerc 'letting' Hamilton have a slipstream. So I don't get why Vettel passes Leclerc in the same way why this is treated differently. For me it was a fair and square pass.

The only reason that I would see for switching the order of these two at some point in the race would have been for fair payback for Singapore when Vettel was allowed to get ahead of Leclerc 'unfairly', so to allow Leclerc to undercut Vettel at the stops, (like what ultimately actually happened), would have been equal treatment and reasonable. However the rationale for wanting to switch the cars seemed unrelated to Singapore and instead more about this allowing of a slipstream at the start. I see no reason for there to have been an agreement in place for this. It's just created an unnecessary political situation where there didn't need to be one.

If there was no pre race agreement, Leclerc would simply blast off and move slightly off line to defend against Lewis. Being off line means Seb would not get the tow, thus not getting p2 at the first corner. The danger of defending against Lewis is that he now gets the tow and can overtake Leclerc, making it a Ferrari 2-3.

It's not a fair pass simply because there was an agreement. A driver has a reason to be upset with a broken promise. See how Webber was so upset at multi-21. Alonso upset with losing no.1 at Mclaren when he was promised it. Leclerc didn't ask for it. The team and drivers agreed. In the radio, the team in fact said Seb will give it back rather than Leclerc asking for it.

TheGiantHogweed · Post by **TheGiantHogweed** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:17 pm

I think the full team radio transcript will be relevant. https://www.racefans.net/2019/10/01/vet ... ranscript/

It is certainly interesting!

Johnson · Post by **Johnson** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:58 pm

That's interesting, it seems that if Vettel got a better start he might have been allowed to keep the lead. If you watch from the overhead shot both cars get an identical start and its all slipsteam that gets him by.

I wondered why Vettel would sign up for any type of deal that basically ensured he would be P2, but it makes more sense now seeing the transcript.

The other interesting thing is that Vettel lost the K at somepoint before turn 6 and didn't park until turn 13. He did half a lap with no K, could they not have just gone the extra 200-300m to make the pits, he could have rolled the final 100m. He literally went 85-90% of the distance to the pits from where he lost the K. They had 40 seconds or so to make that choice and surely it was one worth risking. They likely would have won since Russell accidents that brought at the later SC was related to Vettels VSC.

pc27b · Post by **pc27b** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:33 pm

there are enough rumors that vettel has been chatting with red bull and not so happy at ferrari. i wonder if this is just another nail in the coffin so he can go to red bull and ferrari can sign ricciardo.

no one at ferrari should have thought vettel was going to give up the lead in that situation. i would say the same it it was Leclerc also.

Johnson · Post by **Johnson** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:05 pm

Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
DFWdude wrote:Ferrari needs to realize they can't orchestrate races in general, or team orders in specific. Let them race. Once taking the lead, Vettel posted at least 5 Fastest Laps prior to the pit stops. He was clearly faster.

LeClerc is a fine driver... seems much better in control of is mind than Verstappen ever was. But he's no 4-time WDC, yet. These younger drivers will appreciate their accomplishments more when they earn it on merit. Whining like a child doesn't cut it.
Vettel built a 4.5 second lead, he had about 0.2 advantage but im not too sure how hard each were pushing because once Leclerc was told it will be plan C he completely cooled down and it seemed he knew he was getting the undercut and race lead.

Races are won on saturday as much as Sunday, Russian is the only track in the entire season that the person starting in P3 can take the lead whilst making an equal start to the leader. Vettel didn’t get a better start than Leclerc, it was almost identical. Leclerc is the better package for winning races at the moment. Being 0.5 quicker in qualifying and 0.1 slower in the race is better than the other way around. At no other track would Vettel have taken the lead and he isn’t showing 4x WDC qualifying speed this year.

Haa I get you so he was intentionally losing time to Hamilton!

Also it was Vettel going to plan C, and the slower race pace was why he lost the race.

Where did I say that? I said Vettel was about 0.2 quicker. I was merely refering to Leclercs attitude, once he was told plan C, he completely cooled down and was happy again. Where as before that he was agitated that Vettel was ahead. Plan C, likely meant Leclerc pits first and gets to undercut into the lead.

Teddy007 · Post by **Teddy007** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:21 pm

shoot999 wrote:
Teddy007 wrote: To be fair to Ferrari, in respect of RB and Merc the choice of number one has always been pretty much a no brainer; despite a few trying to 'sell' Bottas as some sort of rival to Ham. Ferrari have a different problem, the number one driver slot is changing (you could argue it has already changed), and its being played out over a season in few view of the press and public.

As Button put it, you probably won't find one contract within F1 that dictates who is No 1; or indeed No 2, but everyone within the teams and wider paddock knows exactly who is the No 1 within each team. And at Ferrari it's Leclerc.

It was interesting listening to Button, De Resta and Davidson over the weekend on this subject. Quite a lot of sympathy for Vettel as they have all been there, but the killer remark for me was 'he (Vettel) is now an outsider in his own team'.

I'd say it would best to make the choice and do it as LeClerk. An obvious future for F1. Vettel has shown he can dominate with a number 1 status.

I would say LeClerk has been more unfortunate (as shown by the recent article of PF1). Ferrari need to make the call or lose another season. Maybe it is too little too late. Come next season, if we get another year where it's race/close between these 2-3 teams.. again Ferrari need to nip this in the bud.

Ryu28 · Post by **Ryu28** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:33 pm

Vettel didn't respect the pole. He should not have overtaken Leclerc and then none of this would have happened.

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:03 pm

Johnson wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
DFWdude wrote:Ferrari needs to realize they can't orchestrate races in general, or team orders in specific. Let them race. Once taking the lead, Vettel posted at least 5 Fastest Laps prior to the pit stops. He was clearly faster.

LeClerc is a fine driver... seems much better in control of is mind than Verstappen ever was. But he's no 4-time WDC, yet. These younger drivers will appreciate their accomplishments more when they earn it on merit. Whining like a child doesn't cut it.
Vettel built a 4.5 second lead, he had about 0.2 advantage but im not too sure how hard each were pushing because once Leclerc was told it will be plan C he completely cooled down and it seemed he knew he was getting the undercut and race lead.

Races are won on saturday as much as Sunday, Russian is the only track in the entire season that the person starting in P3 can take the lead whilst making an equal start to the leader. Vettel didn’t get a better start than Leclerc, it was almost identical. Leclerc is the better package for winning races at the moment. Being 0.5 quicker in qualifying and 0.1 slower in the race is better than the other way around. At no other track would Vettel have taken the lead and he isn’t showing 4x WDC qualifying speed this year.

Haa I get you so he was intentionally losing time to Hamilton!

Also it was Vettel going to plan C, and the slower race pace was why he lost the race.
Where did I say that? I said Vettel was about 0.2 quicker. I was merely refering to Leclercs attitude, once he was told plan C, he completely cooled down and was happy again. Where as before that he was agitated that Vettel was ahead. Plan C, likely meant Leclerc pits first and gets to undercut into the lead.

That's trying to change the context of the discussion, we were talking about lap times not his emotion, your cool down was he was not pushing hence why I highlighted the text.

trento · Post by **trento** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:09 pm

Johnson wrote:That's interesting, it seems that if Vettel got a better start he might have been allowed to keep the lead. If you watch from the overhead shot both cars get an identical start and its all slipsteam that gets him by.

I wondered why Vettel would sign up for any type of deal that basically ensured he would be P2, but it makes more sense now seeing the transcript.

The other interesting thing is that Vettel lost the K at somepoint before turn 6 and didn't park until turn 13. He did half a lap with no K, could they not have just gone the extra 200-300m to make the pits, he could have rolled the final 100m. He literally went 85-90% of the distance to the pits from where he lost the K. They had 40 seconds or so to make that choice and surely it was one worth risking. They likely would have won since Russell accidents that brought at the later SC was related to Vettels VSC.

the team ordered him to give up the lead, so your statement is contradictory.

Following the deal would give him in p2, one better than p3 so why not?

trento · Post by **trento** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:11 pm

Johnson wrote:
Where did I say that? I said Vettel was about 0.2 quicker. I was merely refering to Leclercs attitude, once he was told plan C, he completely cooled down and was happy again. Where as before that he was agitated that Vettel was ahead. Plan C, likely meant Leclerc pits first and gets to undercut into the lead.

he has every right to be upset cos he followed the agreement while his teammate didn't.

trento · Post by **trento** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:13 pm

Ryu28 wrote:Vettel didn't respect the pole. He should not have overtaken Leclerc and then none of this would have happened.

i think the agreement was to give Vettel the tow so he could remain ahead of Hamilton and also Leclerc. If he didn't overtake Leclerc, Hamilton would get the tow and Vettel would lose p2 eventually.

kleefton · Post by **kleefton** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:28 pm

pc27b wrote:there are enough rumors that vettel has been chatting with red bull and not so happy at ferrari. i wonder if this is just another nail in the coffin so he can go to red bull and ferrari can sign ricciardo.

no one at ferrari should have thought vettel was going to give up the lead in that situation. i would say the same it it was Leclerc also.

If he goes to Redbull to partner up with Verstappen he is absolutely crazy. That team and car is centered around Max. Max would effectively end his F1 career by embarrassing him even worse than Leclerc is doing.

mikeyg123 · Post by **mikeyg123** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:35 pm

kleefton wrote:
pc27b wrote:there are enough rumors that vettel has been chatting with red bull and not so happy at ferrari. i wonder if this is just another nail in the coffin so he can go to red bull and ferrari can sign ricciardo.

no one at ferrari should have thought vettel was going to give up the lead in that situation. i would say the same it it was Leclerc also.
If he goes to Redbull to partner up with Verstappen he is absolutely crazy. That team and car is centered around Max. Max would effectively end his F1 career by embarrassing him even worse than Leclerc is doing.

It depends if he likes being an F1 driver or not.

Vettel Fan · Post by **Vettel Fan** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:28 pm

What did Leclerc expect after what happened in Monza. If I were in the car I couldn't image many scenarios were I would give up the lead.
Sitting in a prerace meeting with management talking about giving me a tow but promising to swap positions later, I would be laughing my donkey off inside but all thumbs up on the outside.