2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Thread

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Jezza13
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Jezza13 »

UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:well that is disapointing from Bottas I thought it would be incridibly likely he would beat hamilton here, but he seems to finding it tricky today compared to yesterday. Hopefully his race pace will still be decent.
He's somehow catfished Mercedes into giving him another contract. Now that is secure I doubt he will beat Hamilton again this season.
I think I read a few weeks back his focus now was on 2020.
I'm sure Wolff would've been happy to hear that.

Might try it with my boss on Monday.

"Hey boss. I'm pretty much done trying to give you my best for this year. I'm now gunna focus on next year".

Reckon i'd be hitting the employment websites before the day would be out.
Only took 7 yrs, 5 mths & 21 days.

Cooper, Arrows, Brabham, Ligier, Lotus, Tyrrell, Minardi, McLaren, Sauber, Williams,

Remember the garagista's. The heart & soul of F1. They raced to race.

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)

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Invade
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Invade »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Its really odd the both Gasly and Albon are/were better in the Torro Rosso than the Red Bull, how does that make sense?
It makes you think that maybe the gap between the top three teams and the rest of the field has a lot to do with the drivers.
Maybe Hamilton and Leclerc could live with Max Verstappen.

Or....?

I hope Hamilton hangs around for several more years yet, because things are on the verge of getting very spicy. The rise of Max and now Charles will reinvigorate this great sport.

mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:well that is disapointing from Bottas I thought it would be incridibly likely he would beat hamilton here, but he seems to finding it tricky today compared to yesterday. Hopefully his race pace will still be decent.
He's somehow catfished Mercedes into giving him another contract. Now that is secure I doubt he will beat Hamilton again this season.
Hopefully Ricciardo gets a Merc deal for 2021 onwards to close out his career. I don't get the impression Daniel is the kinda guy who wants to go on forever, and it's a shame he hasn't had a chance to bag a title in a car with that potential.

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Leclerc looks incredible on one Lap pace. In that department he is bossing Vettel lately, having Hamilton as a buffer should work in his favour too making it that much tougher for Vettel to get within slipstreaming range on lap one.

As for Mercedes, Obviously Hamilton's 2nd place won't last as I imagine he will get out-tractioned by Vettel at the start given the tyre offset, or Vettel will sail past pretty quickly on the straight. The gamble on medium tyres is one well worth making, Verstappen is starting further back so barring a miracle won't challenge at the start.

The medium to soft strategy will give Merc a window where a safety car could win them the race, if not they will have the tyre advantage later on in the race, but passing the Ferrari's looks like it will be impossible. A good session for Sainz and the inexplicably seatless for 2020 Hulk.

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Pullrod »

Option or Prime wrote:Its really odd the both Gasly and Albon are/were better in the Torro Rosso than the Red Bull, how does that make sense?
Maybe Verstappen is another Alonso.. A driver who drives a certain way and likes cars who seem undriveable to their teammates.
It is a good strategy to enhance your reputation/status but a very bad one to win championships.

Hopefully RB find a solution that can please both drivers because as things stand, they will NEVER win a WCC, but VER will reach GOD status.

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by SmoothRide »

mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:well that is disapointing from Bottas I thought it would be incridibly likely he would beat hamilton here, but he seems to finding it tricky today compared to yesterday. Hopefully his race pace will still be decent.
He's somehow catfished Mercedes into giving him another contract. Now that is secure I doubt he will beat Hamilton again this season.
It's a sensible decision. Bottas is an ideal number 2 driver. Fast but clearly slower than the lead guy. Brings in a lot of points, but not so much as to make WDC a battle. Makes no fuss when he has to move over and doesn't sulk afterwards. I like how he justified slowing his pace in Singapore to allow Lewis to get ahead. That the team would do the same if the situation was reversed. Sure, Valtteri, you keep thinking that! 8)

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Pullrod wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Its really odd the both Gasly and Albon are/were better in the Torro Rosso than the Red Bull, how does that make sense?
Maybe Verstappen is another Alonso.. A driver who drives a certain way and likes cars who seem undriveable to their teammates.
It is a good strategy to enhance your reputation/status but a very bad one to win championships.

Hopefully RB find a solution that can please both drivers because as things stand, they will NEVER win a WCC, but VER will reach GOD status.
I get the feeling that Red Bull seem to give Verstappen 100% priority over his team mate. At least it seems that way. They effectively seem to ruin other drivers careers since Verstappen has been there. But their thing of brining in drivers to soon just doesn't seem to be working out. I think they should have picked a very experienced driver for this year instead of Gasly or anyone from their program.

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Pullrod »

BMWSauber84 wrote:Leclerc looks incredible on one Lap pace. In that department he is bossing Vettel lately, having Hamilton as a buffer should work in his favour too making it that much tougher for Vettel to get within slipstreaming range on lap one.

As for Mercedes, Obviously Hamilton's 2nd place won't last as I imagine he will get out-tractioned by Vettel at the start given the tyre offset, or Vettel will sail past pretty quickly on the straight. The gamble on medium tyres is one well worth making, Verstappen is starting further back so barring a miracle won't challenge at the start.

The medium to soft strategy will give Merc a window where a safety car could win them the race, if not they will have the tyre advantage later on in the race, but passing the Ferrari's looks like it will be impossible. A good session for Sainz and the inexplicably seatless for 2020 Hulk.
You are very late to the party :D
I have watched Leclerc long enough to know that he is the only one who could beat a focused Hamilton. The only area where he is clearly worse than HAM is in the rain but even there with this guy you never know what he could pull off.

No hype, just the real deal and I know HAM fear LEC more than VER. Just look at the body language ;)

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by BMWSauber84 »

It's the adaptability of Leclerc that is probably his most impressive attribute. He was 5-1 down in qualifying to Vettel after Canada. He often seemed to fall behind in Q3.

From that point he has outqualified Vettel 9 times out of 9. He worked out what he was doing wrong and has upped his game considerably.

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by F1 Racer »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Its really odd the both Gasly and Albon are/were better in the Torro Rosso than the Red Bull, how does that make sense?
It makes you think that maybe the gap between the top three teams and the rest of the field has a lot to do with the drivers.
Ummm... so until now you always just assumed that the teams were foolish in paying the top drivers such huge salaries, thinking that the driver doesn't make much of a difference?

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Pullrod »

F1 Racer wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Its really odd the both Gasly and Albon are/were better in the Torro Rosso than the Red Bull, how does that make sense?
It makes you think that maybe the gap between the top three teams and the rest of the field has a lot to do with the drivers.
Ummm... so until now you always just assumed that the teams were foolish in paying the top drivers such huge salaries, thinking that the driver doesn't make much of a difference?
That was the trend to bash HAM and his championships. Now the drivers make the difference they say.

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

F1 Racer wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Its really odd the both Gasly and Albon are/were better in the Torro Rosso than the Red Bull, how does that make sense?
It makes you think that maybe the gap between the top three teams and the rest of the field has a lot to do with the drivers.
Ummm... so until now you always just assumed that the teams were foolish in paying the top drivers such huge salaries, thinking that the driver doesn't make much of a difference?
Obviously not. My representation of the difference between the elite and midfield can be characterised by the difference between Hamilton and Bottas. However, taking in the perspective of the margins between Verstappen and his teammates illustrates that that gap might be much bigger. It's more likely in my opinion though that Toro Rosso have the fourth best car.
"Always believe you will become the best, but never believe you have done so"

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by F1 Racer »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Its really odd the both Gasly and Albon are/were better in the Torro Rosso than the Red Bull, how does that make sense?
It makes you think that maybe the gap between the top three teams and the rest of the field has a lot to do with the drivers.
Ummm... so until now you always just assumed that the teams were foolish in paying the top drivers such huge salaries, thinking that the driver doesn't make much of a difference?
Obviously not. My representation of the difference between the elite and midfield can be characterised by the difference between Hamilton and Bottas. However, taking in the perspective of the margins between Verstappen and his teammates illustrates that that gap might be much bigger. It's more likely in my opinion though that Toro Rosso have the fourth best car.
So why did you not already realise that a big part of the reason between the large gap from the top three to the midfield is down to the drivers then?

Bottas was already one of the more capable midfield drivers before he joined Mercedes, (comfortably beating an old Massa), but now Bottas looks poor over the last three seasons.

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

F1 Racer wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Its really odd the both Gasly and Albon are/were better in the Torro Rosso than the Red Bull, how does that make sense?
It makes you think that maybe the gap between the top three teams and the rest of the field has a lot to do with the drivers.
Ummm... so until now you always just assumed that the teams were foolish in paying the top drivers such huge salaries, thinking that the driver doesn't make much of a difference?
Obviously not. My representation of the difference between the elite and midfield can be characterised by the difference between Hamilton and Bottas. However, taking in the perspective of the margins between Verstappen and his teammates illustrates that that gap might be much bigger. It's more likely in my opinion though that Toro Rosso have the fourth best car.
So why did you not already realise that a big part of the reason between the large gap from the top three to the midfield is down to the drivers then?

Bottas was already one of the more capable midfield drivers before he joined Mercedes, (comfortably beating an old Massa), but now Bottas looks poor over the last three seasons.
How much of a difference do you think there is? My original statement was about the comparison between Verstappen and the Toro Rosso drivers. Surely it's unrealistic that the gap is closer to one second than it is a few tenths.
"Always believe you will become the best, but never believe you have done so"

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Option or Prime »

Pullrod wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Its really odd the both Gasly and Albon are/were better in the Torro Rosso than the Red Bull, how does that make sense?
Maybe Verstappen is another Alonso.. A driver who drives a certain way and likes cars who seem undriveable to their teammates.
It is a good strategy to enhance your reputation/status but a very bad one to win championships.

Hopefully RB find a solution that can please both drivers because as things stand, they will NEVER win a WCC, but VER will reach GOD status.
Or maybe Verstappen gets special treatment within the team, didn't Gasly improve when he got MV's settings a while ago? Perhaps he gets different data, setups or upgrades.
Looking a Gasly he seems happier now than at RB so perhaps even psychology. It's a bit odd.

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by F1 Racer »

Option or Prime wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Its really odd the both Gasly and Albon are/were better in the Torro Rosso than the Red Bull, how does that make sense?
Maybe Verstappen is another Alonso.. A driver who drives a certain way and likes cars who seem undriveable to their teammates.
It is a good strategy to enhance your reputation/status but a very bad one to win championships.

Hopefully RB find a solution that can please both drivers because as things stand, they will NEVER win a WCC, but VER will reach GOD status.
Or maybe Verstappen gets special treatment within the team, didn't Gasly improve when he got MV's settings a while ago? Perhaps he gets different data, setups or upgrades.
Looking a Gasly he seems happier now than at RB so perhaps even psychology. It's a bit odd.
The car wasn't undriveable for Danny Ric. Also Danny Ric was comfortably faster than Kyvat when they were together, (not quite crushing Kyvat as Max is faster than Dan, so Max would crush Kyvat).

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by shoot999 »

SmoothRide wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:well that is disapointing from Bottas I thought it would be incridibly likely he would beat hamilton here, but he seems to finding it tricky today compared to yesterday. Hopefully his race pace will still be decent.
He's somehow catfished Mercedes into giving him another contract. Now that is secure I doubt he will beat Hamilton again this season.
It's a sensible decision. Bottas is an ideal number 2 driver. Fast but clearly slower than the lead guy. Brings in a lot of points, but not so much as to make WDC a battle. Makes no fuss when he has to move over and doesn't sulk afterwards. I like how he justified slowing his pace in Singapore to allow Lewis to get ahead. That the team would do the same if the situation was reversed. Sure, Valtteri, you keep thinking that! 8)
So the number of times Ham when leading has sacrificed his choice of pitstop to allow Bottas first go so as not to get undercut doesn't count?

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by mikeyg123 »

Option or Prime wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Its really odd the both Gasly and Albon are/were better in the Torro Rosso than the Red Bull, how does that make sense?
Maybe Verstappen is another Alonso.. A driver who drives a certain way and likes cars who seem undriveable to their teammates.
It is a good strategy to enhance your reputation/status but a very bad one to win championships.

Hopefully RB find a solution that can please both drivers because as things stand, they will NEVER win a WCC, but VER will reach GOD status.
Or maybe Verstappen gets special treatment within the team, didn't Gasly improve when he got MV's settings a while ago? Perhaps he gets different data, setups or upgrades.
Looking a Gasly he seems happier now than at RB so perhaps even psychology. It's a bit odd.
I think the Verstappen/Gasly comparison isn't far out of what you would expect if Gasly is at a similar level to Kvyat. Verstappen is just that much better.

shoot999
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by shoot999 »

Pullrod wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:Leclerc looks incredible on one Lap pace. In that department he is bossing Vettel lately, having Hamilton as a buffer should work in his favour too making it that much tougher for Vettel to get within slipstreaming range on lap one.

As for Mercedes, Obviously Hamilton's 2nd place won't last as I imagine he will get out-tractioned by Vettel at the start given the tyre offset, or Vettel will sail past pretty quickly on the straight. The gamble on medium tyres is one well worth making, Verstappen is starting further back so barring a miracle won't challenge at the start.

The medium to soft strategy will give Merc a window where a safety car could win them the race, if not they will have the tyre advantage later on in the race, but passing the Ferrari's looks like it will be impossible. A good session for Sainz and the inexplicably seatless for 2020 Hulk.
You are very late to the party :D
I have watched Leclerc long enough to know that he is the only one who could beat a focused Hamilton. The only area where he is clearly worse than HAM is in the rain but even there with this guy you never know what he could pull off.

No hype, just the real deal and I know HAM fear LEC more than VER. Just look at the body language ;)
Some have and all seem to think he's relishing the fact he finally has a consistent challenger . No idea where this fear thing manifests itself.

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by F1 Racer »

shoot999 wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:well that is disapointing from Bottas I thought it would be incridibly likely he would beat hamilton here, but he seems to finding it tricky today compared to yesterday. Hopefully his race pace will still be decent.
He's somehow catfished Mercedes into giving him another contract. Now that is secure I doubt he will beat Hamilton again this season.
It's a sensible decision. Bottas is an ideal number 2 driver. Fast but clearly slower than the lead guy. Brings in a lot of points, but not so much as to make WDC a battle. Makes no fuss when he has to move over and doesn't sulk afterwards. I like how he justified slowing his pace in Singapore to allow Lewis to get ahead. That the team would do the same if the situation was reversed. Sure, Valtteri, you keep thinking that! 8)
So the number of times Ham when leading has sacrificed his choice of pitstop to allow Bottas first go so as not to get undercut doesn't count?
No it doesn't count as from memory Hamilton has never lost out on actual positions and WDC points as a result of allowing Bottas to have a marginally better pit stop opportunity.

For example Hamilton leading Bottas by 5 seconds, and Bottas is ahead of the 3rd place man by 2 seconds and the 3rd place man pits. Hamilton might normally stop on the next lap and Bottas the lap after that, but instead Hamilton stays out and allows Bottas to pit to fend off the undercut. Then Hamilton comes in a lap later than planned but comfortably still leading with no loss of points. Those are the types of situation you are describing right? Those occasions absolutely do not count, so please provide examples of when Hamilton has lost WDC points from helping Bottas.

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Johnson »

Bottas himself only lost WDC points once, Russia 2018.

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by F1 Racer »

Johnson wrote:Bottas himself only lost WDC points once, Russia 2018.
No, Singapore 2019, Germany 2018, probably many more. It counts as Bottas losing WDC points if he is prevented from gaining them from Hamilton.

Ditto has Hamilton lost WDC points to Bottas? I don't think so, maybe once late in the season one time when the title was pretty much won.

It's fine though, VB is the number two, but others seem to think they can argue that the situation at Mercedes is equal with LH and VB being treated the same as joint number ones.

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by SmoothRide »

Johnson wrote:Bottas himself only lost WDC points once, Russia 2018.
How about the last race at Singapore where Bottas would have finished ahead if the team did not tell him to slow down by 3 seconds per lap?

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by LBET »

A_Game_A_Day wrote:Slightly OT, but was watching the Sky pre-qualy show's interview with Kubica - it was the first time I'd seen the reality of his right arm. Really shocked me that it lacked muscle, looked largely limp, and as if he'd have little grip.

Really puts into impressive perspective that he can capably drive an F1 car at all!
After understanding the magnitude of his injury and the associated nerve damage, it was clearly that the he has very, (very), limited dexterity in his right hand. Major chunks of muscle were lost.

No paddle operation, no holding cups of tea and no classical guitar.

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by kleefton »

Pullrod wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Its really odd the both Gasly and Albon are/were better in the Torro Rosso than the Red Bull, how does that make sense?
Maybe Verstappen is another Alonso.. A driver who drives a certain way and likes cars who seem undriveable to their teammates.
It is a good strategy to enhance your reputation/status but a very bad one to win championships.

Hopefully RB find a solution that can please both drivers because as things stand, they will NEVER win a WCC, but VER will reach GOD status.
Agree with most of this. It seems no one else but Max can drive that Redbull car. The car is developed entirely around Max and it will be very difficult for anyone else to master it because Max’s driving style is unique enough. Very Alonsoesque indeed. They really need an experienced vet in that car, someone that knows how to set up the car to their liking. Hulk is their man imo since they won’t dare bring in Alonso.

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by SmoothRide »

LBET wrote:
A_Game_A_Day wrote:Slightly OT, but was watching the Sky pre-qualy show's interview with Kubica - it was the first time I'd seen the reality of his right arm. Really shocked me that it lacked muscle, looked largely limp, and as if he'd have little grip.

Really puts into impressive perspective that he can capably drive an F1 car at all!
After understanding the magnitude of his injury and the associated nerve damage, it was clearly that the he has very, (very), limited dexterity in his right hand. Major chunks of muscle were lost.

No paddle operation, no holding cups of tea and no classical guitar.
Yes, he hides it very cleverly and the media is kind to him not emphasizing it (most photos of him are shot to conceal the state of his arm), but the functionality in his right arm is not much different than a prosthetic limb.

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by F1 Racer »

kleefton wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Its really odd the both Gasly and Albon are/were better in the Torro Rosso than the Red Bull, how does that make sense?
Maybe Verstappen is another Alonso.. A driver who drives a certain way and likes cars who seem undriveable to their teammates.
It is a good strategy to enhance your reputation/status but a very bad one to win championships.

Hopefully RB find a solution that can please both drivers because as things stand, they will NEVER win a WCC, but VER will reach GOD status.
Agree with most of this. It seems no one else but Max can drive that Redbull car. The car is developed entirely around Max and it will be very difficult for anyone else to master it because Max’s driving style is unique enough. Very Alonsoesque indeed. They really need an experienced vet in that car, someone that knows how to set up the car to their liking. Hulk is their man imo since they won’t dare bring in Alonso.
What part did you not agree with? The part about them not being able to win a WCC with a second driver that can't get to grips with the car? Benetton managed it in 1995 after all, where Herbert was never on the lead pace at any race.

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by kleefton »

F1 Racer wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Its really odd the both Gasly and Albon are/were better in the Torro Rosso than the Red Bull, how does that make sense?
Maybe Verstappen is another Alonso.. A driver who drives a certain way and likes cars who seem undriveable to their teammates.
It is a good strategy to enhance your reputation/status but a very bad one to win championships.

Hopefully RB find a solution that can please both drivers because as things stand, they will NEVER win a WCC, but VER will reach GOD status.
Agree with most of this. It seems no one else but Max can drive that Redbull car. The car is developed entirely around Max and it will be very difficult for anyone else to master it because Max’s driving style is unique enough. Very Alonsoesque indeed. They really need an experienced vet in that car, someone that knows how to set up the car to their liking. Hulk is their man imo since they won’t dare bring in Alonso.
What part did you not agree with? The part about them not being able to win a WCC with a second driver that can't get to grips with the car? Benetton managed it in 1995 after all, where Herbert was never on the lead pace at any race.

If Verstappen ends up not winning a single title because Redbull is too focused on building a car that only he likes, he will never be considered a God imo.

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by F1 Racer »

kleefton wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Its really odd the both Gasly and Albon are/were better in the Torro Rosso than the Red Bull, how does that make sense?
Maybe Verstappen is another Alonso.. A driver who drives a certain way and likes cars who seem undriveable to their teammates.
It is a good strategy to enhance your reputation/status but a very bad one to win championships.

Hopefully RB find a solution that can please both drivers because as things stand, they will NEVER win a WCC, but VER will reach GOD status.
Agree with most of this. It seems no one else but Max can drive that Redbull car. The car is developed entirely around Max and it will be very difficult for anyone else to master it because Max’s driving style is unique enough. Very Alonsoesque indeed. They really need an experienced vet in that car, someone that knows how to set up the car to their liking. Hulk is their man imo since they won’t dare bring in Alonso.
What part did you not agree with? The part about them not being able to win a WCC with a second driver that can't get to grips with the car? Benetton managed it in 1995 after all, where Herbert was never on the lead pace at any race.

If Verstappen ends up not winning a single title because Redbull is too focused on building a car that only he likes, he will never be considered a God imo.
Yeah, I think Verstappen actually has to win things doesn't he. I agree with you.

shoot999
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by shoot999 »

SmoothRide wrote:
Johnson wrote:Bottas himself only lost WDC points once, Russia 2018.
How about the last race at Singapore where Bottas would have finished ahead if the team did not tell him to slow down by 3 seconds per lap?
So if they didnt slow him down, or he didnt want to play ball they would have just pitted Ham earlier. So where's the scenario that gains him those points. Lets the tactic of going long play out, and then sabotage the tactic at the last minute?

But just so I understand. In this case you are arguing that he lost points; and ground on Hamilton, because of team tactics. Yet in the past Ham has given up his call on a pitstop to allow Bottas to pit so as not to let Bottas be undercut (for example keeping a third place rather than dropping to forth.) But in that case; you are arguing that even though Bottas got 15 points rather than 12 and that was an overall point benefit to Bottas and brought him closer in the WDC fight with Hamilton, that doesn't count as an example of team tactics benefiting Bottas to the detriment of Hamilton.

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by sandman1347 »

F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:Bottas himself only lost WDC points once, Russia 2018.
No, Singapore 2019, Germany 2018, probably many more. It counts as Bottas losing WDC points if he is prevented from gaining them from Hamilton.

Ditto has Hamilton lost WDC points to Bottas? I don't think so, maybe once late in the season one time when the title was pretty much won.

It's fine though, VB is the number two, but others seem to think they can argue that the situation at Mercedes is equal with LH and VB being treated the same as joint number ones.
Singapore 2019? Why? Because they didn't hand him Hamilton's position through strategy? That's not losing points. That's just not gaining points either. As for Germany 2018; you have to basically assume that Bottas would have been able to pass Lewis on track (which I think is a foolish assumption). The hold order came AFTER Valteri had his run at Lewis through turn 6 and Lewis basically gapped Bottas after that. Bottas was slower than Hamilton at that point; he just had the better restart because he had fresh tires and a long run to get the slipstream. He was never going to win that race.

The only time Bottas was really asked to sacrifice his rightful position was Russia 2018 (and that was totally unnecessary for Hamilton or Mercedes).

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Fiki »

Am I the only one who is annoyed by drivers going off track and still holding on to their lap times? I doubt I am, but likewise I doubt the owners intend to lose sleep over a silly detail like rules and regulations. :?
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Asphalt_World »

Fiki wrote:Am I the only one who is annoyed by drivers going off track and still holding on to their lap times? I doubt I am, but likewise I doubt the owners intend to lose sleep over a silly detail like rules and regulations. :?
I'll join you with annoyance about that. A Sky commentator said that they seemed to be ignoring the track limits because with the exception of T2, there is no advantage to be gained. To me this is simply not true. OK, so no time may be gained by running wide at lots of corners, but it does give the drivers the knowledge that they can push hard and if they run wide, they won't get punished.

Track limits should be enforced on all corners at all circuits, full stop.
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Option or Prime »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Fiki wrote:Am I the only one who is annoyed by drivers going off track and still holding on to their lap times? I doubt I am, but likewise I doubt the owners intend to lose sleep over a silly detail like rules and regulations. :?
I'll join you with annoyance about that. A Sky commentator said that they seemed to be ignoring the track limits because with the exception of T2, there is no advantage to be gained. To me this is simply not true. OK, so no time may be gained by running wide at lots of corners, but it does give the drivers the knowledge that they can push hard and if they run wide, they won't get punished.

Track limits should be enforced on all corners at all circuits, full stop.
Well if we are voting count me in. Its a pet hate of mine, going off track!
Last edited by Option or Prime on Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Fiki »

Option or Prime wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Fiki wrote:Am I the only one who is annoyed by drivers going off track and still holding on to their lap times? I doubt I am, but likewise I doubt the owners intend to lose sleep over a silly detail like rules and regulations. :?
I'll join you with annoyance about that. A Sky commentator said that they seemed to be ignoring the track limits because with the exception of T2, there is no advantage to be gained. To me this is simply not true. OK, so no time may be gained by running wide at lots of corners, but it does give the drivers the knowledge that they can push hard and if they run wide, they won't get punished.

Track limits should be enforced on all corners at all circuits, full stop.
Well if we are voting count me in. Its a pet hate going of track!
I can't help wondering how the notion that nothing was gained going off track came about. The sport counts lap times down to one thousandth of a second... The reason they do it, must be either because they gain something on the corner(s) they complete off-track, or on the straight following it. With drivers going fully off-track at the exit of the final corner, as many did today, I believe the gains are found on both the corner AND the straight. Is there another explanation?
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Fiki wrote:Am I the only one who is annoyed by drivers going off track and still holding on to their lap times? I doubt I am, but likewise I doubt the owners intend to lose sleep over a silly detail like rules and regulations. :?
I'll join you with annoyance about that. A Sky commentator said that they seemed to be ignoring the track limits because with the exception of T2, there is no advantage to be gained. To me this is simply not true. OK, so no time may be gained by running wide at lots of corners, but it does give the drivers the knowledge that they can push hard and if they run wide, they won't get punished.

Track limits should be enforced on all corners at all circuits, full stop.
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Mort Canard »

Pullrod wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Its really odd the both Gasly and Albon are/were better in the Torro Rosso than the Red Bull, how does that make sense?
It makes you think that maybe the gap between the top three teams and the rest of the field has a lot to do with the drivers.
Ummm... so until now you always just assumed that the teams were foolish in paying the top drivers such huge salaries, thinking that the driver doesn't make much of a difference?
That was the trend to bash HAM and his championships. Now the drivers make the difference they say.
:thumbup: :lol:
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Jezza13 »

F1 Racer wrote:
kleefton wrote:

If Verstappen ends up not winning a single title because Redbull is too focused on building a car that only he likes, he will never be considered a God imo.
Yeah, I think Verstappen actually has to win things doesn't he. I agree with you.
A few people have been saying for a few years that it's not a matter of if but when Verstappen will win a championship. They've almost seen it as a fait accompli that he'll get the drivers trophy one day.

The advent of the YDP's, B-teams & with 2 of the big 3 teams clearly having a #1 & #2 driver setup, it's more difficult than ever for a driver to position themselves in a car that'll give them a genuine chance to win the title. It's looking increasingly like, for top shelf drivers in YDP's anyway, there's a non overlapping conduit for them as far as their career paths go.

Get signed to a YDP at a young age & get funded by the F1 team for their junior career. In return, if they show promise, they commit themselves to that career path that locks them in up until they get turfed because they're deemed not good enough, or they they make it to the A team & fulfill the terms of the contract they signed a few years earlier. By the time they have the option to look around, the other big teams have their junior talent coming through & as such have no need to look at outside their YDP bubble.

Ricciardo's a prime example of the negative aspects of YDP's.

Verstappen needs a competitive RB, & Honda for that matter, as much as RB & Honda needs a competitive Verstappen. In fact he probably needs them more. It seems Leclerc's got Ferrari's future locked up. Hamilton's said got a few years left in him & Russell's impressing at Williams & could be the heir apparent to Hamilton's seat, though i'd not totally discount Ocon returning to Merc either, so that option could be compromised too.

For all his talent, and he's a great talent no doubt, he could very easily end up with a career record that, on paper, indicates he was a driver who had a few wins on talent, lucked in to a few more, got a pole position or 2 but that's about it. Obviously it wouldn't be an accurate portrayal of his talent. I think he's better than that though not as good as some make out. To me he's Vettel 2.0, maybe slightly better, but without Vettel's record.
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Mort Canard »

Jezza13 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
kleefton wrote:

If Verstappen ends up not winning a single title because Redbull is too focused on building a car that only he likes, he will never be considered a God imo.
Yeah, I think Verstappen actually has to win things doesn't he. I agree with you.
A few people have been saying for a few years that it's not a matter of if but when Verstappen will win a championship. They've almost seen it as a fait accompli that he'll get the drivers trophy one day.

The advent of the YDP's, B-teams & with 2 of the big 3 teams clearly having a #1 & #2 driver setup, it's more difficult than ever for a driver to position themselves in a car that'll give them a genuine chance to win the title. It's looking increasingly like, for top shelf drivers in YDP's anyway, there's a non overlapping conduit for them as far as their career paths go.

Get signed to a YDP at a young age & get funded by the F1 team for their junior career. In return, if they show promise, they commit themselves to that career path that locks them in up until they get turfed because they're deemed not good enough, or they they make it to the A team & fulfill the terms of the contract they signed a few years earlier. By the time they have the option to look around, the other big teams have their junior talent coming through & as such have no need to look at outside their YDP bubble.

Ricciardo's a prime example of the negative aspects of YDP's.

Verstappen needs a competitive RB, & Honda for that matter, as much as RB & Honda needs a competitive Verstappen. In fact he probably needs them more. It seems Leclerc's got Ferrari's future locked up. Hamilton's said got a few years left in him & Russell's impressing at Williams & could be the heir apparent to Hamilton's seat, though i'd not totally discount Ocon returning to Merc either, so that option could be compromised too.

For all his talent, and he's a great talent no doubt, he could very easily end up with a career record that, on paper, indicates he was a driver who had a few wins on talent, lucked in to a few more, got a pole position or 2 but that's about it. Obviously it wouldn't be an accurate portrayal of his talent. I think he's better than that though not as good as some make out. To me he's Vettel 2.0, maybe slightly better, but without Vettel's record.
So you're saying that Max will go down in F1 history with the caveat that "He was better than his record indicates." :lol:

Certainly with young Charles winning at his current pace, Max will need many times the seven wins he now has if he is to be called the "Driver of his Generation."
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Jezza13 »

Mort Canard wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
kleefton wrote:

If Verstappen ends up not winning a single title because Redbull is too focused on building a car that only he likes, he will never be considered a God imo.
Yeah, I think Verstappen actually has to win things doesn't he. I agree with you.
A few people have been saying for a few years that it's not a matter of if but when Verstappen will win a championship. They've almost seen it as a fait accompli that he'll get the drivers trophy one day.

The advent of the YDP's, B-teams & with 2 of the big 3 teams clearly having a #1 & #2 driver setup, it's more difficult than ever for a driver to position themselves in a car that'll give them a genuine chance to win the title. It's looking increasingly like, for top shelf drivers in YDP's anyway, there's a non overlapping conduit for them as far as their career paths go.

Get signed to a YDP at a young age & get funded by the F1 team for their junior career. In return, if they show promise, they commit themselves to that career path that locks them in up until they get turfed because they're deemed not good enough, or they they make it to the A team & fulfill the terms of the contract they signed a few years earlier. By the time they have the option to look around, the other big teams have their junior talent coming through & as such have no need to look at outside their YDP bubble.

Ricciardo's a prime example of the negative aspects of YDP's.

Verstappen needs a competitive RB, & Honda for that matter, as much as RB & Honda needs a competitive Verstappen. In fact he probably needs them more. It seems Leclerc's got Ferrari's future locked up. Hamilton's said got a few years left in him & Russell's impressing at Williams & could be the heir apparent to Hamilton's seat, though i'd not totally discount Ocon returning to Merc either, so that option could be compromised too.

For all his talent, and he's a great talent no doubt, he could very easily end up with a career record that, on paper, indicates he was a driver who had a few wins on talent, lucked in to a few more, got a pole position or 2 but that's about it. Obviously it wouldn't be an accurate portrayal of his talent. I think he's better than that though not as good as some make out. To me he's Vettel 2.0, maybe slightly better, but without Vettel's record.
So you're saying that Max will go down in F1 history with the caveat that "He was better than his record indicates." :lol:

Certainly with young Charles winning at his current pace, Max will need many times the seven wins he now has if he is to be called the "Driver of his Generation."
Possibly yeah though I don't think he'd be the only one with that caveat.

I personally think Senna was a better driver than his record indicates & i'm sure there's a few more. I don't necessarily think he's a better driver than Leclerc, though for me the jury's still out on that.
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Re: 2019 Russian Grand Prix Free Practice & Qualifying Threa

Post by Mort Canard »

Jezza13 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Yeah, I think Verstappen actually has to win things doesn't he. I agree with you.
A few people have been saying for a few years that it's not a matter of if but when Verstappen will win a championship. They've almost seen it as a fait accompli that he'll get the drivers trophy one day.

The advent of the YDP's, B-teams & with 2 of the big 3 teams clearly having a #1 & #2 driver setup, it's more difficult than ever for a driver to position themselves in a car that'll give them a genuine chance to win the title. It's looking increasingly like, for top shelf drivers in YDP's anyway, there's a non overlapping conduit for them as far as their career paths go.

Get signed to a YDP at a young age & get funded by the F1 team for their junior career. In return, if they show promise, they commit themselves to that career path that locks them in up until they get turfed because they're deemed not good enough, or they they make it to the A team & fulfill the terms of the contract they signed a few years earlier. By the time they have the option to look around, the other big teams have their junior talent coming through & as such have no need to look at outside their YDP bubble.

Ricciardo's a prime example of the negative aspects of YDP's.

Verstappen needs a competitive RB, & Honda for that matter, as much as RB & Honda needs a competitive Verstappen. In fact he probably needs them more. It seems Leclerc's got Ferrari's future locked up. Hamilton's said got a few years left in him & Russell's impressing at Williams & could be the heir apparent to Hamilton's seat, though i'd not totally discount Ocon returning to Merc either, so that option could be compromised too.

For all his talent, and he's a great talent no doubt, he could very easily end up with a career record that, on paper, indicates he was a driver who had a few wins on talent, lucked in to a few more, got a pole position or 2 but that's about it. Obviously it wouldn't be an accurate portrayal of his talent. I think he's better than that though not as good as some make out. To me he's Vettel 2.0, maybe slightly better, but without Vettel's record.
So you're saying that Max will go down in F1 history with the caveat that "He was better than his record indicates." :lol:

Certainly with young Charles winning at his current pace, Max will need many times the seven wins he now has if he is to be called the "Driver of his Generation."
Possibly yeah though I don't think he'd be the only one with that caveat.

I personally think Senna was a better driver than his record indicates & i'm sure there's a few more. I don't necessarily think he's a better driver than Leclerc, though for me the jury's still out on that.
Agreed! Remains to be seen. I have to say I find Charles a much more likeable character than Max.
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