Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

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F1 Racer
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Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by F1 Racer »

I only watched this race on partial fast forward as I could tell it would be a dull one with no racing at the front, so as a result I may have missed some incidents but these were three that I certainly noticed:

(i) Grosjean and Russell - For me this incident shows why the inside driver should always be required to lift off the gas and exit the corner slower than they ideally want to rather than driving completely to the outside of the track. When there is a wall there, the outside driver can not take to the run-off area so instead he just gets clobbered. Russell was 100% at fault in my opinion, but this also means the drivers in similar positions on corners with no wall present are still 100% at fault for doing the same thing. Maybe no penalty was needed because Russell was out of the grand prix.

(ii) Danny Ric and Giovinazzi - Ric didn't leave enough outside space. I think I saw a Force India and a Torro Rosso race into the same corner later on with enough space on the outside given. Because Ric received damage, I guess no penalty needs to be dished out here either.

(iii) Kimi and Kyvat - This one is a bit of a weird one for me. Kimi tried to force another driver off the inside of the track by not being aware of a driver on his inside again, (like Belgium), but then at the same time there was a whiff of 'divebomb' about the overtaking move with the inside driver skating towards the middle of the track, i.e. Kyvat was braking a bit too late. Both were trying to drive into each other's lanes at the same time hence why there was such a forceful impact. This one was a racing incident/50:50 for me.

So I would say the stewards got these incidents right, but I wonder whether that was because the perpetrators came off worse this time?

TheGiantHogweed
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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

F1 Racer wrote:I only watched this race on partial fast forward as I could tell it would be a dull one with no racing at the front, so as a result I may have missed some incidents but these were three that I certainly noticed:

(i) Grosjean and Russell - For me this incident shows why the inside driver should always be required to lift off the gas and exit the corner slower than they ideally want to rather than driving completely to the outside of the track. When there is a wall there, the outside driver can not take to the run-off area so instead he just gets clobbered. Russell was 100% at fault in my opinion, but this also means the drivers in similar positions on corners with no wall present are still 100% at fault for doing the same thing. Maybe no penalty was needed because Russell was out of the grand prix.

(ii) Danny Ric and Giovinazzi - Ric didn't leave enough outside space. I think I saw a Force India and a Torro Rosso race into the same corner later on with enough space on the outside given. Because Ric received damage, I guess no penalty needs to be dished out here either.

(iii) Kimi and Kyvat - This one is a bit of a weird one for me. Kimi tried to force another driver off the inside of the track by not being aware of a driver on his inside again, (like Belgium), but then at the same time there was a whiff of 'divebomb' about the overtaking move with the inside driver skating towards the middle of the track, i.e. Kyvat was braking a bit too late. Both were trying to drive into each other's lanes at the same time hence why there was such a forceful impact. This one was a racing incident/50:50 for me.

So I would say the stewards got these incidents right, but I wonder whether that was because the perpetrators came off worse this time?

Think I more or less fully agree here. I think Grosjean was a bit too optimistic, but still would put more blame on Russell. I don't expect there to be any penalty towards either driver.

I think Ricciardo's overtake style most of the time works, but he does literally lunges down the inside. Giovinazzi tried to give him room, but Ricciardo suffered. And I can agree that no penalty is needed because of the outcome - but they apparently don't decide it from this. But I'm not sure if i believe this.

I think Kvyat was a tiny bit too optimistic, but I think he will have just about made the corner. But Kimi was still on his outside. But Kimi did certainly have time to give more space. IMO, he just wasn't aware enough. Then I think Kvyat will have either made it work - or ran a bit wide and had to slow down. But i still don't know why Kimi turned in like Kvyat wasn't there. Anyway, i again think that there will likely be no further investigation.

da4an1qu1
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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by da4an1qu1 »

I really can't understand how anyone is blaming Kimi on this one. What the hell was Kimi supposed to do. Not take the corner? He was there way ahead of Kvyat. So now we can legitimise a driver compromising a feasible racing line that'd keep them on track, so long as they get their car somewhere in the vicinity of their opponent to claim racing incident?

If Kimi wasn't there, exactly how would Kvyat made that corner? Visualise him having to go slow and wide and tiptoe back onto a racing line. Ridiculous!

mikeyg123
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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by mikeyg123 »

da4an1qu1 wrote:I really can't understand how anyone is blaming Kimi on this one. What the hell was Kimi supposed to do. Not take the corner? He was there way ahead of Kvyat. So now we can legitimise a driver compromising a feasible racing line that'd keep them on track, so long as they get their car somewhere in the vicinity of their opponent to claim racing incident?

If Kimi wasn't there, exactly how would Kvyat made that corner? Visualise him having to go slow and wide and tiptoe back onto a racing line. Ridiculous!
Kimi wasn't way ahead they banged front wheels and Kvyat was clearly going to make the corner. Look at the angle of his car before the contact. Kimi didn't see him and turned in as normal. Pretty understandable but I think Kvyat had the right to give it a go there.

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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

da4an1qu1 wrote:I really can't understand how anyone is blaming Kimi on this one. What the hell was Kimi supposed to do. Not take the corner? He was there way ahead of Kvyat. So now we can legitimise a driver compromising a feasible racing line that'd keep them on track, so long as they get their car somewhere in the vicinity of their opponent to claim racing incident?

If Kimi wasn't there, exactly how would Kvyat made that corner? Visualise him having to go slow and wide and tiptoe back onto a racing line. Ridiculous!
Well, they have been cleared for this, but I think it is clear Kvyat hasn't done anything wrong from this decision. Quoted from here:

https://www.racefans.net/2019/09/22/gio ... -to-crane/


"The stewards also cleared Giovinazzi’s team mate Kimi Raikkonen and Daniil Kvyat over the collision between the pair at turn one.

“Kvyat explained that he saw that Raikkonen was slowing and harvesting [energy] into turn one,” they noted. “He moved to the inside and attempted to make the pass. He was on soft tyres.

“The stewards accepted his explanation that he felt he could make the corner. Raikkonen explained that he had seen Kvyat earlier, but had not expected him to be so far into the corner when he turned in.”"



Saying he was there way ahead of Kimi was not true when they were at the corner. Kvyat had his nose just ahead and Kimi turned in anyway. And clearly, the stweards accepted that Kvyat will actually have made the corner with the tyres he was on.

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Exediron
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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by Exediron »

mikeyg123 wrote:
da4an1qu1 wrote:I really can't understand how anyone is blaming Kimi on this one. What the hell was Kimi supposed to do. Not take the corner? He was there way ahead of Kvyat. So now we can legitimise a driver compromising a feasible racing line that'd keep them on track, so long as they get their car somewhere in the vicinity of their opponent to claim racing incident?

If Kimi wasn't there, exactly how would Kvyat made that corner? Visualise him having to go slow and wide and tiptoe back onto a racing line. Ridiculous!
Kimi wasn't way ahead they banged front wheels and Kvyat was clearly going to make the corner. Look at the angle of his car before the contact. Kimi didn't see him and turned in as normal. Pretty understandable but I think Kvyat had the right to give it a go there.
This is a line of argument you've used several times that I really don't agree with. Just because the attacking driver is going to be capable of making the corner does not mean he has a right to execute a move that requires the other driver to take evasive action to avoid a collision.
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da4an1qu1
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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by da4an1qu1 »

I can see there is no point arguing this. If this video doesn't sway you, then I despair. Kvyat was not making that corner. I don't know where Raikkonen could have went. He can take some blame for not just slamming on the brakes and letting Kvyat sail right by, and off of the track. But that's it.

This was not a controlled pass. And it is unfortunate that they actually collided, as it masks how ridiculous the move was. Way too ambitious.

https://youtu.be/UA1VxyBRLhU

And I'm not a Raikkonen fan. I do admire his abilities however. I'm actually a Ricciardo fan, and am fast losing patience with him too. He's making silly overtake attempts too, ruining any ground he reclaims in races.

I think we've got into this really strange "alternate universe" now where it is acceptable for the driver to bomb through at unreasonable speeds, to make the pass by crowding the driver off of the track. This was Kvyat's intention. Fine. If you fudge it up, it's your fault.

mikeyg123
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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by mikeyg123 »

da4an1qu1 wrote:I can see there is no point arguing this. If this video doesn't sway you, then I despair. Kvyat was not making that corner. I don't know where Raikkonen could have went. He can take some blame for not just slamming on the brakes and letting Kvyat sail right by, and off of the track. But that's it.

This was not a controlled pass. And it is unfortunate that they actually collided, as it masks how ridiculous the move was. Way too ambitious.

https://youtu.be/UA1VxyBRLhU

And I'm not a Raikkonen fan. I do admire his abilities however. I'm actually a Ricciardo fan, and am fast losing patience with him too. He's making silly overtake attempts too, ruining any ground he reclaims in races.

I think we've got into this really strange "alternate universe" now where it is acceptable for the driver to bomb through at unreasonable speeds, to make the pass by crowding the driver off of the track. This was Kvyat's intention. Fine. If you fudge it up, it's your fault.
No, I just don't think Kvyat's speed is unreasonable. Look at the overhead video before the contact. Kvyat is well in control and making the corner.

When the contact occurs it knocks Kvyat wheel straight which is why it looks like it does.

The stewards have looked at it and they are sure Kvyat would make the corner as well.

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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by mikeyg123 »

Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
da4an1qu1 wrote:I really can't understand how anyone is blaming Kimi on this one. What the hell was Kimi supposed to do. Not take the corner? He was there way ahead of Kvyat. So now we can legitimise a driver compromising a feasible racing line that'd keep them on track, so long as they get their car somewhere in the vicinity of their opponent to claim racing incident?

If Kimi wasn't there, exactly how would Kvyat made that corner? Visualise him having to go slow and wide and tiptoe back onto a racing line. Ridiculous!
Kimi wasn't way ahead they banged front wheels and Kvyat was clearly going to make the corner. Look at the angle of his car before the contact. Kimi didn't see him and turned in as normal. Pretty understandable but I think Kvyat had the right to give it a go there.
This is a line of argument you've used several times that I really don't agree with. Just because the attacking driver is going to be capable of making the corner does not mean he has a right to execute a move that requires the other driver to take evasive action to avoid a collision.
Almost every overtake that happens in a corner prevents the driver being overtaken from taking their usual line. Or take evasive action as you put it.

da4an1qu1
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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by da4an1qu1 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
da4an1qu1 wrote:I really can't understand how anyone is blaming Kimi on this one. What the hell was Kimi supposed to do. Not take the corner? He was there way ahead of Kvyat. So now we can legitimise a driver compromising a feasible racing line that'd keep them on track, so long as they get their car somewhere in the vicinity of their opponent to claim racing incident?

If Kimi wasn't there, exactly how would Kvyat made that corner? Visualise him having to go slow and wide and tiptoe back onto a racing line. Ridiculous!
Kimi wasn't way ahead they banged front wheels and Kvyat was clearly going to make the corner. Look at the angle of his car before the contact. Kimi didn't see him and turned in as normal. Pretty understandable but I think Kvyat had the right to give it a go there.
This is a line of argument you've used several times that I really don't agree with. Just because the attacking driver is going to be capable of making the corner does not mean he has a right to execute a move that requires the other driver to take evasive action to avoid a collision.
Almost every overtake that happens in a corner prevents the driver being overtaken from taking their usual line. Or take evasive action as you put it.
That's missing the point. The point is it you execute the move, you still have to be able to stay on track. Not make the overtake because you raced to cut off your opponents line for a corner, *and nothing more*.

Ok, stewards say that Kvyat appeared to still be in control. I concede. Maybe. I'm dubious.

My biggest concern is that now a spin is being spun that Rakkonien is the reckless driver. Both times, Spa and Singapore, all he's been guilty of is not taking evasive action whilst the desperado behind him has decided to 'lick it and send it'.

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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by Siao7 »

da4an1qu1 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
da4an1qu1 wrote:I really can't understand how anyone is blaming Kimi on this one. What the hell was Kimi supposed to do. Not take the corner? He was there way ahead of Kvyat. So now we can legitimise a driver compromising a feasible racing line that'd keep them on track, so long as they get their car somewhere in the vicinity of their opponent to claim racing incident?

If Kimi wasn't there, exactly how would Kvyat made that corner? Visualise him having to go slow and wide and tiptoe back onto a racing line. Ridiculous!
Kimi wasn't way ahead they banged front wheels and Kvyat was clearly going to make the corner. Look at the angle of his car before the contact. Kimi didn't see him and turned in as normal. Pretty understandable but I think Kvyat had the right to give it a go there.
This is a line of argument you've used several times that I really don't agree with. Just because the attacking driver is going to be capable of making the corner does not mean he has a right to execute a move that requires the other driver to take evasive action to avoid a collision.
Almost every overtake that happens in a corner prevents the driver being overtaken from taking their usual line. Or take evasive action as you put it.
That's missing the point. The point is it you execute the move, you still have to be able to stay on track. Not make the overtake because you raced to cut off your opponents line for a corner, *and nothing more*.

Ok, stewards say that Kvyat appeared to still be in control. I concede. Maybe. I'm dubious.

My biggest concern is that now a spin is being spun that Rakkonien is the reckless driver. Both times, Spa and Singapore, all he's been guilty of is not taking evasive action whilst the desperado behind him has decided to 'lick it and send it'.
Kimi accepted the blame:

"Raikkonen would later claim responsibility for that incident, saying “I saw on the side of my eyes that he was there but it was too late and we touched”".

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... GkVaA.html


So what are you arguing about?

mikeyg123
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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by mikeyg123 »

da4an1qu1 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
da4an1qu1 wrote:I really can't understand how anyone is blaming Kimi on this one. What the hell was Kimi supposed to do. Not take the corner? He was there way ahead of Kvyat. So now we can legitimise a driver compromising a feasible racing line that'd keep them on track, so long as they get their car somewhere in the vicinity of their opponent to claim racing incident?

If Kimi wasn't there, exactly how would Kvyat made that corner? Visualise him having to go slow and wide and tiptoe back onto a racing line. Ridiculous!
Kimi wasn't way ahead they banged front wheels and Kvyat was clearly going to make the corner. Look at the angle of his car before the contact. Kimi didn't see him and turned in as normal. Pretty understandable but I think Kvyat had the right to give it a go there.
This is a line of argument you've used several times that I really don't agree with. Just because the attacking driver is going to be capable of making the corner does not mean he has a right to execute a move that requires the other driver to take evasive action to avoid a collision.
Almost every overtake that happens in a corner prevents the driver being overtaken from taking their usual line. Or take evasive action as you put it.
That's missing the point. The point is it you execute the move, you still have to be able to stay on track. Not make the overtake because you raced to cut off your opponents line for a corner, *and nothing more*.

Ok, stewards say that Kvyat appeared to still be in control. I concede. Maybe. I'm dubious.

My biggest concern is that now a spin is being spun that Rakkonien is the reckless driver. Both times, Spa and Singapore, all he's been guilty of is not taking evasive action whilst the desperado behind him has decided to 'lick it and send it'.
Nobody's saying Kimi is an inherently reckless driver.

I think both drivers wanted the same piece of tarmac (at the apex of the corner) and Kvyat beat Kimi to it. Drivers should take account of others alongside them. Kimi saw Kvyat but to late which was understandable seeing as he made a late move. I don't really blame either driver in this case. Kvyat was entitled to give it a go but there was always a risk that Kimi wouldn't see him.

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Covalent
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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by Covalent »

Siao7 wrote:
da4an1qu1 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote: Kimi wasn't way ahead they banged front wheels and Kvyat was clearly going to make the corner. Look at the angle of his car before the contact. Kimi didn't see him and turned in as normal. Pretty understandable but I think Kvyat had the right to give it a go there.
This is a line of argument you've used several times that I really don't agree with. Just because the attacking driver is going to be capable of making the corner does not mean he has a right to execute a move that requires the other driver to take evasive action to avoid a collision.
Almost every overtake that happens in a corner prevents the driver being overtaken from taking their usual line. Or take evasive action as you put it.
That's missing the point. The point is it you execute the move, you still have to be able to stay on track. Not make the overtake because you raced to cut off your opponents line for a corner, *and nothing more*.

Ok, stewards say that Kvyat appeared to still be in control. I concede. Maybe. I'm dubious.

My biggest concern is that now a spin is being spun that Rakkonien is the reckless driver. Both times, Spa and Singapore, all he's been guilty of is not taking evasive action whilst the desperado behind him has decided to 'lick it and send it'.
Kimi accepted the blame:

"Raikkonen would later claim responsibility for that incident, saying “I saw on the side of my eyes that he was there but it was too late and we touched”".

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... GkVaA.html


So what are you arguing about?
He didn't claim responsibility, I'm a bit surprised F1.com would make that kind of false conclusion actually.
Also a bit rich that this if coming from Kvyat of all people:
“I think the episode with Kimi was the only episode where he just tried to suicide himself, to be honest with you. A lot moving under braking and he just turned on me. He does this a lot, unfortunately, so today he paid his price.”

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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by Covalent »

mikeyg123 wrote:
da4an1qu1 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote: Kimi wasn't way ahead they banged front wheels and Kvyat was clearly going to make the corner. Look at the angle of his car before the contact. Kimi didn't see him and turned in as normal. Pretty understandable but I think Kvyat had the right to give it a go there.
This is a line of argument you've used several times that I really don't agree with. Just because the attacking driver is going to be capable of making the corner does not mean he has a right to execute a move that requires the other driver to take evasive action to avoid a collision.
Almost every overtake that happens in a corner prevents the driver being overtaken from taking their usual line. Or take evasive action as you put it.
That's missing the point. The point is it you execute the move, you still have to be able to stay on track. Not make the overtake because you raced to cut off your opponents line for a corner, *and nothing more*.

Ok, stewards say that Kvyat appeared to still be in control. I concede. Maybe. I'm dubious.

My biggest concern is that now a spin is being spun that Rakkonien is the reckless driver. Both times, Spa and Singapore, all he's been guilty of is not taking evasive action whilst the desperado behind him has decided to 'lick it and send it'.
Nobody's saying Kimi is an inherently reckless driver.

I think both drivers wanted the same piece of tarmac (at the apex of the corner) and Kvyat beat Kimi to it. Drivers should take account of others alongside them. Kimi saw Kvyat but to late which was understandable seeing as he made a late move. I don't really blame either driver in this case. Kvyat was entitled to give it a go but there was always a risk that Kimi wouldn't see him.
Isn't Kvyat saying exactly that?

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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by tim3003 »

F1 Racer wrote:
(i) Grosjean and Russell - For me this incident shows why the inside driver should always be required to lift off the gas and exit the corner slower than they ideally want to rather than driving completely to the outside of the track. When there is a wall there, the outside driver can not take to the run-off area so instead he just gets clobbered. Russell was 100% at fault in my opinion, but this also means the drivers in similar positions on corners with no wall present are still 100% at fault for doing the same thing. Maybe no penalty was needed because Russell was out of the grand prix.
Well Coulthard and Webber put the blame with Grosjean. Isn't the rule that Russell was ahead, so has the right to chose his own line? It looked absurd of Grosjean to push his nose forward when with the wall beside him there was no room to do anything other than hit Russell. The cars were 'interlocked' then, so the only way for both to stay on the track was for Grosjean to keep station until Russell moved away from the barrier.

Siao7
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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by Siao7 »

Covalent wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
da4an1qu1 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote: This is a line of argument you've used several times that I really don't agree with. Just because the attacking driver is going to be capable of making the corner does not mean he has a right to execute a move that requires the other driver to take evasive action to avoid a collision.
Almost every overtake that happens in a corner prevents the driver being overtaken from taking their usual line. Or take evasive action as you put it.
That's missing the point. The point is it you execute the move, you still have to be able to stay on track. Not make the overtake because you raced to cut off your opponents line for a corner, *and nothing more*.

Ok, stewards say that Kvyat appeared to still be in control. I concede. Maybe. I'm dubious.

My biggest concern is that now a spin is being spun that Rakkonien is the reckless driver. Both times, Spa and Singapore, all he's been guilty of is not taking evasive action whilst the desperado behind him has decided to 'lick it and send it'.
Kimi accepted the blame:

"Raikkonen would later claim responsibility for that incident, saying “I saw on the side of my eyes that he was there but it was too late and we touched”".

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... GkVaA.html


So what are you arguing about?
He didn't claim responsibility, I'm a bit surprised F1.com would make that kind of false conclusion actually.
Also a bit rich that this if coming from Kvyat of all people:
“I think the episode with Kimi was the only episode where he just tried to suicide himself, to be honest with you. A lot moving under braking and he just turned on me. He does this a lot, unfortunately, so today he paid his price.”
Well, not sure how else to take it really. Maybe they meant he accepted his part of the blame, that he saw Kvyat but didn't react fast enough or it was too late.

In fairness Kvyat held his hand up and accepted that he drove like a blind granny in this race. He wasn't using Kimi to excuse his own bad driving or something

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Covalent
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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by Covalent »

Siao7 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
da4an1qu1 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Almost every overtake that happens in a corner prevents the driver being overtaken from taking their usual line. Or take evasive action as you put it.
That's missing the point. The point is it you execute the move, you still have to be able to stay on track. Not make the overtake because you raced to cut off your opponents line for a corner, *and nothing more*.

Ok, stewards say that Kvyat appeared to still be in control. I concede. Maybe. I'm dubious.

My biggest concern is that now a spin is being spun that Rakkonien is the reckless driver. Both times, Spa and Singapore, all he's been guilty of is not taking evasive action whilst the desperado behind him has decided to 'lick it and send it'.
Kimi accepted the blame:

"Raikkonen would later claim responsibility for that incident, saying “I saw on the side of my eyes that he was there but it was too late and we touched”".

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... GkVaA.html


So what are you arguing about?
He didn't claim responsibility, I'm a bit surprised F1.com would make that kind of false conclusion actually.
Also a bit rich that this if coming from Kvyat of all people:
“I think the episode with Kimi was the only episode where he just tried to suicide himself, to be honest with you. A lot moving under braking and he just turned on me. He does this a lot, unfortunately, so today he paid his price.”
Well, not sure how else to take it really. Maybe they meant he accepted his part of the blame, that he saw Kvyat but didn't react fast enough or it was too late.

In fairness Kvyat held his hand up and accepted that he drove like a blind granny in this race. He wasn't using Kimi to excuse his own bad driving or something
Yes and all the while F1.com only points the finger at Kimi.

Siao7
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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by Siao7 »

Covalent wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
da4an1qu1 wrote:
That's missing the point. The point is it you execute the move, you still have to be able to stay on track. Not make the overtake because you raced to cut off your opponents line for a corner, *and nothing more*.

Ok, stewards say that Kvyat appeared to still be in control. I concede. Maybe. I'm dubious.

My biggest concern is that now a spin is being spun that Rakkonien is the reckless driver. Both times, Spa and Singapore, all he's been guilty of is not taking evasive action whilst the desperado behind him has decided to 'lick it and send it'.
Kimi accepted the blame:

"Raikkonen would later claim responsibility for that incident, saying “I saw on the side of my eyes that he was there but it was too late and we touched”".

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... GkVaA.html


So what are you arguing about?
He didn't claim responsibility, I'm a bit surprised F1.com would make that kind of false conclusion actually.
Also a bit rich that this if coming from Kvyat of all people:
“I think the episode with Kimi was the only episode where he just tried to suicide himself, to be honest with you. A lot moving under braking and he just turned on me. He does this a lot, unfortunately, so today he paid his price.”
Well, not sure how else to take it really. Maybe they meant he accepted his part of the blame, that he saw Kvyat but didn't react fast enough or it was too late.

In fairness Kvyat held his hand up and accepted that he drove like a blind granny in this race. He wasn't using Kimi to excuse his own bad driving or something
Yes and all the while F1.com only points the finger at Kimi.
I think all websites I have checked kind of do. Kimi said that he was struggling with his tyres and when he checked his mirrors, Kvyat was too far back, then he saw him next to him and it was too late to react. So, while it was not exactly a sinister move from him, it does point out to Kimi turning into Kvyat, as they were alongside at that time I believe. Kvyat did over react with his comments, but if you want to point a finger, I think the blame lies more with Kimi, ever so slightly.

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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by Covalent »

Siao7 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Kimi accepted the blame:

"Raikkonen would later claim responsibility for that incident, saying “I saw on the side of my eyes that he was there but it was too late and we touched”".

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... GkVaA.html


So what are you arguing about?
He didn't claim responsibility, I'm a bit surprised F1.com would make that kind of false conclusion actually.
Also a bit rich that this if coming from Kvyat of all people:
“I think the episode with Kimi was the only episode where he just tried to suicide himself, to be honest with you. A lot moving under braking and he just turned on me. He does this a lot, unfortunately, so today he paid his price.”
Well, not sure how else to take it really. Maybe they meant he accepted his part of the blame, that he saw Kvyat but didn't react fast enough or it was too late.

In fairness Kvyat held his hand up and accepted that he drove like a blind granny in this race. He wasn't using Kimi to excuse his own bad driving or something
Yes and all the while F1.com only points the finger at Kimi.
I think all websites I have checked kind of do. Kimi said that he was struggling with his tyres and when he checked his mirrors, Kvyat was too far back, then he saw him next to him and it was too late to react. So, while it was not exactly a sinister move from him, it does point out to Kimi turning into Kvyat, as they were alongside at that time I believe. Kvyat did over react with his comments, but if you want to point a finger, I think the blame lies more with Kimi, ever so slightly.
Agreed but as you said ever so slightly. "Claimed responsibility" implies 100% fault IMO.

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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by F1 Racer »

Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
da4an1qu1 wrote:I really can't understand how anyone is blaming Kimi on this one. What the hell was Kimi supposed to do. Not take the corner? He was there way ahead of Kvyat. So now we can legitimise a driver compromising a feasible racing line that'd keep them on track, so long as they get their car somewhere in the vicinity of their opponent to claim racing incident?

If Kimi wasn't there, exactly how would Kvyat made that corner? Visualise him having to go slow and wide and tiptoe back onto a racing line. Ridiculous!
Kimi wasn't way ahead they banged front wheels and Kvyat was clearly going to make the corner. Look at the angle of his car before the contact. Kimi didn't see him and turned in as normal. Pretty understandable but I think Kvyat had the right to give it a go there.
This is a line of argument you've used several times that I really don't agree with. Just because the attacking driver is going to be capable of making the corner does not mean he has a right to execute a move that requires the other driver to take evasive action to avoid a collision.
Well I would say the Kimi/Kyvat incident is no different to the Schumacher/Villeneuve Jerez 1997 incident, (the driver on the inside coming from way back with a dive bomb). People almost unanimously blame Schumacher for that one, turning into a car on the inside without looking*. Kimi didn't look in Singapore and he didn't look in Belgium. He seems to have a habit of not looking before he turns into the corner.

*Obviously Schumacher did look but had he not looked and just steered his car into the corner normally there would still have been contact and people would have blamed Michael, so in terms of the pure movement of the cars, these incidents were very similar.
Last edited by F1 Racer on Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by F1 Racer »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
da4an1qu1 wrote:I really can't understand how anyone is blaming Kimi on this one. What the hell was Kimi supposed to do. Not take the corner? He was there way ahead of Kvyat. So now we can legitimise a driver compromising a feasible racing line that'd keep them on track, so long as they get their car somewhere in the vicinity of their opponent to claim racing incident?

If Kimi wasn't there, exactly how would Kvyat made that corner? Visualise him having to go slow and wide and tiptoe back onto a racing line. Ridiculous!
Kimi wasn't way ahead they banged front wheels and Kvyat was clearly going to make the corner. Look at the angle of his car before the contact. Kimi didn't see him and turned in as normal. Pretty understandable but I think Kvyat had the right to give it a go there.
This is a line of argument you've used several times that I really don't agree with. Just because the attacking driver is going to be capable of making the corner does not mean he has a right to execute a move that requires the other driver to take evasive action to avoid a collision.
Almost every overtake that happens in a corner prevents the driver being overtaken from taking their usual line. Or take evasive action as you put it.
Correct, but I think the key is that the overtaker also cannot just take their normal line either. Virtually all crashes seem to occur where one or both drivers seem to think they have a right to take their normal line through the corner even though there is someone elses car already occupying some of that space.

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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by F1 Racer »

tim3003 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
(i) Grosjean and Russell - For me this incident shows why the inside driver should always be required to lift off the gas and exit the corner slower than they ideally want to rather than driving completely to the outside of the track. When there is a wall there, the outside driver can not take to the run-off area so instead he just gets clobbered. Russell was 100% at fault in my opinion, but this also means the drivers in similar positions on corners with no wall present are still 100% at fault for doing the same thing. Maybe no penalty was needed because Russell was out of the grand prix.
Well Coulthard and Webber put the blame with Grosjean. Isn't the rule that Russell was ahead, so has the right to chose his own line? It looked absurd of Grosjean to push his nose forward when with the wall beside him there was no room to do anything other than hit Russell. The cars were 'interlocked' then, so the only way for both to stay on the track was for Grosjean to keep station until Russell moved away from the barrier.
Why should a driver in Grosjean's position have to lift here though? He doesn't know with 100% certainty that Russell is going to come across on him like that. It's no different to Kimi coming across on Kyvat in my opinion, only Russell definately knew Grosjean was there so it's worse.

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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
da4an1qu1 wrote:I really can't understand how anyone is blaming Kimi on this one. What the hell was Kimi supposed to do. Not take the corner? He was there way ahead of Kvyat. So now we can legitimise a driver compromising a feasible racing line that'd keep them on track, so long as they get their car somewhere in the vicinity of their opponent to claim racing incident?

If Kimi wasn't there, exactly how would Kvyat made that corner? Visualise him having to go slow and wide and tiptoe back onto a racing line. Ridiculous!
Kimi wasn't way ahead they banged front wheels and Kvyat was clearly going to make the corner. Look at the angle of his car before the contact. Kimi didn't see him and turned in as normal. Pretty understandable but I think Kvyat had the right to give it a go there.
This is a line of argument you've used several times that I really don't agree with. Just because the attacking driver is going to be capable of making the corner does not mean he has a right to execute a move that requires the other driver to take evasive action to avoid a collision.
Almost every overtake that happens in a corner prevents the driver being overtaken from taking their usual line. Or take evasive action as you put it.
Correct, but I think the key is that the overtaker also cannot just take their normal line either. Virtually all crashes seem to occur where one or both drivers seem to think they have a right to take their normal line through the corner even though there is someone elses car already occupying some of that space.
Agree here. Often you see that with the overtaking driver seizes the inside and pushes the driver on the outside off the track.

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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by F1 Racer »

mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote: This is a line of argument you've used several times that I really don't agree with. Just because the attacking driver is going to be capable of making the corner does not mean he has a right to execute a move that requires the other driver to take evasive action to avoid a collision.
Almost every overtake that happens in a corner prevents the driver being overtaken from taking their usual line. Or take evasive action as you put it.
Correct, but I think the key is that the overtaker also cannot just take their normal line either. Virtually all crashes seem to occur where one or both drivers seem to think they have a right to take their normal line through the corner even though there is someone elses car already occupying some of that space.
Agree here. Often you see that with the overtaking driver seizes the inside and pushes the driver on the outside off the track.
Yeah, and it's often legitimised with fancy comments such as ''He had the line'' or ''The racing line was his'' or ''The gap was always going to close'' in order to justify such actions.

When two or more cars are going through a corner together, there is no racing line and both cars have a responsibility to avoid contact with each other.

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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote: This is a line of argument you've used several times that I really don't agree with. Just because the attacking driver is going to be capable of making the corner does not mean he has a right to execute a move that requires the other driver to take evasive action to avoid a collision.
Almost every overtake that happens in a corner prevents the driver being overtaken from taking their usual line. Or take evasive action as you put it.
Correct, but I think the key is that the overtaker also cannot just take their normal line either. Virtually all crashes seem to occur where one or both drivers seem to think they have a right to take their normal line through the corner even though there is someone elses car already occupying some of that space.
Agree here. Often you see that with the overtaking driver seizes the inside and pushes the driver on the outside off the track.
Yeah, and it's often legitimised with fancy comments such as ''He had the line'' or ''The racing line was his'' or ''The gap was always going to close'' in order to justify such actions.

When two or more cars are going through a corner together, there is no racing line and both cars have a responsibility to avoid contact with each other.
:thumbup:

It's like we treat the racing line as a real definite thing.

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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

The issue is that by the time Kimi saw Kvyat, it was too late even though he started to correct, and Kvyat's speed through the corner was too great not to drift outward a tad and it lead to contact.
I'll agree it's a racing incident but I continually say that an attacking driver has to be the more aware driver BECAUSE they have the advantage of VISION whereas the leading driver's vision is SEVERELY
compromised and all they have are tiny mirrors to glance into for split seconds before deciding where to put their car. so while on approach to a corner a driver will look in his mirror a couple times
and see he's clear, but the moment they take their eye off the mirror the trailing driver zooms in and the next thing the lead driver sees is said car alongside him and he has to take evasive action,
and sometimes things happen too fast and they collide.

It's not like when we're on the highway and can look into our mirrors for a few seconds to absorb everything behind us and estimate closing speeds of other drivers. These guys look to see if they're
clear and decide in an instant what to do next.
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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by tim3003 »

F1 Racer wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
(i) Grosjean and Russell - For me this incident shows why the inside driver should always be required to lift off the gas and exit the corner slower than they ideally want to rather than driving completely to the outside of the track. When there is a wall there, the outside driver can not take to the run-off area so instead he just gets clobbered. Russell was 100% at fault in my opinion, but this also means the drivers in similar positions on corners with no wall present are still 100% at fault for doing the same thing. Maybe no penalty was needed because Russell was out of the grand prix.
Well Coulthard and Webber put the blame with Grosjean. Isn't the rule that Russell was ahead, so has the right to chose his own line? It looked absurd of Grosjean to push his nose forward when with the wall beside him there was no room to do anything other than hit Russell. The cars were 'interlocked' then, so the only way for both to stay on the track was for Grosjean to keep station until Russell moved away from the barrier.
Why should a driver in Grosjean's position have to lift here though? He doesn't know with 100% certainty that Russell is going to come across on him like that. It's no different to Kimi coming across on Kyvat in my opinion, only Russell definately knew Grosjean was there so it's worse.
No he doesn't know. But it's Russell's right to take his line, so Grosjean should be prepared for anything. Hamilton didn't know Leclerc was going to squeeze him at Monza, but that was allowed, so...

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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by mikeyg123 »

tim3003 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
(i) Grosjean and Russell - For me this incident shows why the inside driver should always be required to lift off the gas and exit the corner slower than they ideally want to rather than driving completely to the outside of the track. When there is a wall there, the outside driver can not take to the run-off area so instead he just gets clobbered. Russell was 100% at fault in my opinion, but this also means the drivers in similar positions on corners with no wall present are still 100% at fault for doing the same thing. Maybe no penalty was needed because Russell was out of the grand prix.
Well Coulthard and Webber put the blame with Grosjean. Isn't the rule that Russell was ahead, so has the right to chose his own line? It looked absurd of Grosjean to push his nose forward when with the wall beside him there was no room to do anything other than hit Russell. The cars were 'interlocked' then, so the only way for both to stay on the track was for Grosjean to keep station until Russell moved away from the barrier.
Why should a driver in Grosjean's position have to lift here though? He doesn't know with 100% certainty that Russell is going to come across on him like that. It's no different to Kimi coming across on Kyvat in my opinion, only Russell definately knew Grosjean was there so it's worse.
No he doesn't know. But it's Russell's right to take his line, so Grosjean should be prepared for anything. Hamilton didn't know Leclerc was going to squeeze him at Monza, but that was allowed, so...
Why is it Russell's right to take his line? If another car is already in the bit of tarmac you want you shouldn't just drive into them.

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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by Asphalt_World »

It's interesting reading that people are sure that Russel should have left room on the outside, yet when a driver overtakes down the inside and gets alongside, they seem to be forgiven for driving the car they're passing out and off the track, bit like Max on Charles in Austria and the million other passes we've see like this. We're told they are simply taking the racing line out of the corner.

Is it one rule for passing and another for being passed? It shouldn't be.
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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by tim3003 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
(i) Grosjean and Russell - For me this incident shows why the inside driver should always be required to lift off the gas and exit the corner slower than they ideally want to rather than driving completely to the outside of the track. When there is a wall there, the outside driver can not take to the run-off area so instead he just gets clobbered. Russell was 100% at fault in my opinion, but this also means the drivers in similar positions on corners with no wall present are still 100% at fault for doing the same thing. Maybe no penalty was needed because Russell was out of the grand prix.
Well Coulthard and Webber put the blame with Grosjean. Isn't the rule that Russell was ahead, so has the right to chose his own line? It looked absurd of Grosjean to push his nose forward when with the wall beside him there was no room to do anything other than hit Russell. The cars were 'interlocked' then, so the only way for both to stay on the track was for Grosjean to keep station until Russell moved away from the barrier.
Why should a driver in Grosjean's position have to lift here though? He doesn't know with 100% certainty that Russell is going to come across on him like that. It's no different to Kimi coming across on Kyvat in my opinion, only Russell definately knew Grosjean was there so it's worse.
No he doesn't know. But it's Russell's right to take his line, so Grosjean should be prepared for anything. Hamilton didn't know Leclerc was going to squeeze him at Monza, but that was allowed, so...
Why is it Russell's right to take his line?
Because he was ahead. That's the way it works - as long as he doesnt weave or move twice in the braking zone.
mikeyg123 wrote:If another car is already in the bit of tarmac you want you shouldn't just drive into them.
Correct. That applies to Grosjean in this case, not Russell.

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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by F1 Racer »

tim3003 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Why should a driver in Grosjean's position have to lift here though? He doesn't know with 100% certainty that Russell is going to come across on him like that. It's no different to Kimi coming across on Kyvat in my opinion, only Russell definately knew Grosjean was there so it's worse.
No he doesn't know. But it's Russell's right to take his line, so Grosjean should be prepared for anything. Hamilton didn't know Leclerc was going to squeeze him at Monza, but that was allowed, so...
I would argue that Leclerc's move of putting Hamilton off the track at Monza wasn't really ''allowed'', I think it just went unpunished that particular time due to biased stewarding. If it was a completely fair maneuver then why did Hamilton complain about it and Mercedes protested too? If it was all fair game then Hamilton and Mercedes would have been cool with it, but they weren't so clearly they know in their gut that it was against the regulations.

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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by mikeyg123 »

tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Well Coulthard and Webber put the blame with Grosjean. Isn't the rule that Russell was ahead, so has the right to chose his own line? It looked absurd of Grosjean to push his nose forward when with the wall beside him there was no room to do anything other than hit Russell. The cars were 'interlocked' then, so the only way for both to stay on the track was for Grosjean to keep station until Russell moved away from the barrier.
Why should a driver in Grosjean's position have to lift here though? He doesn't know with 100% certainty that Russell is going to come across on him like that. It's no different to Kimi coming across on Kyvat in my opinion, only Russell definately knew Grosjean was there so it's worse.
No he doesn't know. But it's Russell's right to take his line, so Grosjean should be prepared for anything. Hamilton didn't know Leclerc was going to squeeze him at Monza, but that was allowed, so...
Why is it Russell's right to take his line?
Because he was ahead. That's the way it works - as long as he doesnt weave or move twice in the braking zone.
mikeyg123 wrote:If another car is already in the bit of tarmac you want you shouldn't just drive into them.
Correct. That applies to Grosjean in this case, not Russell.
Grosjean went in a straight line. Russell moved over into him. Russell wanted to move left but Grosjean was was already there.

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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by F1 Racer »

mikeyg123 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
No he doesn't know. But it's Russell's right to take his line, so Grosjean should be prepared for anything. Hamilton didn't know Leclerc was going to squeeze him at Monza, but that was allowed, so...
Why is it Russell's right to take his line?
Because he was ahead. That's the way it works - as long as he doesnt weave or move twice in the braking zone.
mikeyg123 wrote:If another car is already in the bit of tarmac you want you shouldn't just drive into them.
Correct. That applies to Grosjean in this case, not Russell.
Grosjean went in a straight line. Russell moved over into him. Russell wanted to move left but Grosjean was was already there.
Exactly, all Grosjean was doing was accelerating his car straight ahead into space that he could see was currently clear, it was Russell who moved laterally across into him despite having loads of free space to his right to use to exit the corner safely without contact.

Either Grosjean has to slam on the brakes and stop his forward momentum abruptly or Russell lifts slightly and uses a bit more of the middle of the track to exit the corner without sliding too far sideways. It seems like Russell's adjustment to avoid contact is by far the easier, smaller and fairer one for him to make than the adjustment Grosjean would be required to make to avoid contact. We would also get to see the cars continue to race side-by-side down the next straight to prolong the action rather than curtailing it prematurely.

If you are driving forwards into open space then that should always be ok, but if you are veering your car laterally closer to the edge of the track than where you are presently then that is not ok if there happens to be part of another car there between you and the edge of the track, so the latter is the 'foul' move so-to-speak.

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Re: Crowding off the track at the 2019 Singapore Grand Prix

Post by F1 Racer »

^^

It was also clearly not in Russell's interests for there to be contact either as it put him out of the race. If he lifts slightly and exits the corner a bit slower and tighter he probably loses about 0.1 seconds of race time and doesn't end up in the wall. If Grosjean slams on the brakes and stops his forward momentum significantly, he loses at least 0.5 seconds of race time there easily, so again who has the easier adjustment to make? For me it is comfortably Russell as he loses much less time avoiding impact than the time Grosjean loses avoiding impact.

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