planetf1.com

Crazy idea. Maybe the stewards could enforce track limits on the full length of each track, in all sessions- with discretion used where extraordinary circumstances are present.

I otherwise don’t know why they both marking track boundaries and referencing them in documentation.

simonr23 wrote:Crazy idea. Maybe the stewards could enforce track limits on the full length of each track, in all sessions- with discretion used where extraordinary circumstances are present.

I otherwise don’t know why they both marking track boundaries and referencing them in documentation.

Enforce the rules eh? You're a revolutionary simon.

That's probably a bit better than the idea I was mulling over to make sure the drivers respected track limits. Maybe not as much fun but probably a better long term solution


http://www. still_putting/random/rubbish/ on_these/moddies/waiting/for_you/to/pick/up_on/it.

simonr23 wrote:Crazy idea. Maybe the stewards could enforce track limits on the full length of each track, in all sessions- with discretion used where extraordinary circumstances are present.

I otherwise don’t know why they both marking track boundaries and referencing them in documentation.

I'd be down for something like that.

What I dislike about the current system is that drivers are only punished if they left the track and gained an advantage. In my opinion, if a driver leaves the track, they've made an error, and should be punished for making a mistake. This should separate the good drivers from the great, as the great will be able to take a corner with confidence of keeping within track limits. Allowing for margin of error basically gives the worse drivers a free pass for whenever they make a mistake, however small.

I think I'm correct in saying that some other form of motorsport has telemetry installed in the cars that identifies when the car has left the track? That's something I'd like to see in F1. The replacement of gravel traps has vastly reduced the risk in F1, and something should be done to create a system that penalises drivers in a way similar to what gravel traps would have done.

The problem is that there is no desire from those inside the sport to enforce track limits. I recall Toto Wolff saying once that he was in favour of removing track limits altogether and letting the drivers go wherever they want because the fans want to see drivers pushing and going as fast as possible, not being constricted by something so trivial as a white line marking the boundary of the race track. How nice of him to tell us what we want to see without asking us.

I can think of no other sport where the boundary of the field of play is open to interpretation by the competitors.

I don't see what is radical about your idea, Simon. The main problem with it is that a minor error doesn't need to lead to a punishment. But running wide on purpose should.
Last week we saw no action at all against drivers cutting the corner atop the Raidillon, and we've seen this year after year. That is down to poor stewarding. I believe being very strict would take a little time to get used to, but it would take the racing away from 'spectacle' and more towards 'sport'. And perhaps that's where the real poblem is to be found.

A few weeks ago I advocated more kerb stones, and higher ones. The current trend towards lower ones only serves to increase the liberties taken, and therefore an increase in risk - as contradictory as that may sound.

I can see a lot of problems with that approach. First, every time a car leaves the track the stewards have to decide whether it was their own fault or if they were forced off. There will be a lot of judgement calls. On a track with a tight turn one, (Spa, Monza) how do you sort out a turn 1 lap 1 bunch up where many cars have to take evasive action and some just leave the racing surface to gain advantage over cars that have spun?

Second what is an appropriate penalty for leaving the racing surface? Is a drive through appropriate every time? If you assess a 5 or 10 second penalty that adds to the confusion where one car may be leading on track but the has a penalty so the car behind him is actually ahead. If you come upon a competitor who has a penalty, you don't have to battle him and pass him. You can just park 2-3 seconds from his gearbox and still be ahead. Lewis won the race in Canada and never had to pass Sebastian because of the penalty. That is not very satisfying for the fans.

People like seeing a driver spin off and then come back to win the race or at least get on the podium. Some of the great drives in F1 and other racing series have been when great drivers have made an error, ended up way down the standings and battled back to win.

I would say that the FIA needs to make going off track a disadvantage to the driver so they won't go there.

Perhaps where a steward/camera and AI decides it was an error/cheat manoeuvre, the car is reduced to 50% throttle for 1 second for the first penalty (1 warning- if not blatant) and 2 seconds, 3 seconds for subsequent infractions.

I believe the track limit is the limit. Drivers should treat it like an invisible wall- with exceptions for extraordinary situations (spun car, stalled car, large debris)

Unnecesary complicated. It will became a game of penalties.

What's wrong with using all the space you want if you can drive on it? (generally, not chicanes and stuff like that where you can gain immense amount of time).
In F1 everything is already too tight, especially with this new era 2m wide cars. Then everything is very calculated with line, driving style etc Why not give some more space where is due? It will look more spectacular (also Toto said that) and will give more variety, which is very needed. And it will ease a headache for the stewards.

'O but you should drive on track not outside it, that's racing'. Who decides where the track limit is? It's a relative thing, here let's allow on this exit more room. Anything artificially made its part of the track. 'Ohh but the rules...' Change the rules for the better.
Generally the tracks that have more variety in terms of racing line, track width, provide more overtaking posibilities. Not stop/go tracks. This is what the government of F1 and some fans fail to see.
F1 needs variety and more play space for the driver, not ultra-strict rules that will turn it into make or brake scenario.

Bacus wrote:Unnecesary complicated. It will became a game of penalties.

What's wrong with using all the space you want if you can drive on it? (generally, not chicanes and stuff like that where you can gain immense amount of time).
In F1 everything is already too tight, especially with this new era 2m wide cars. Then everything is very calculated with line, driving style etc Why not give some more space where is due? It will look more spectacular (also Toto said that) and will give more variety, which is very needed. And it will ease a headache for the stewards.

'O but you should drive on track not outside it, that's racing'. Who decides where the track limit is? It's a relative thing, here let's allow on this exit more room. Anything artificially made its part of the track. 'Ohh but the rules...' Change the rules for the better.
Generally the tracks that have more variety in terms of racing line, track width, provide more overtaking posibilities. Not stop/go tracks. This is what the government of F1 and some fans fail to see.
F1 needs variety and more play space for the driver, not ultra-strict rules that will turn it into make or brake scenario.

So a track like Paul Ricard which is all tarmac..... ?

Yes we could penalise every driver who was forced off the track by another, dodged a bit of debris , missed a breaking point, etc. Just find a way of policing 5 miles or so of white lines x 20 cars. And then sit around for a few hours whilst the stewards worked out the penalties they had to rescind post race.

Or alternatively do what most forms of racing do. Sort it out in the briefing room pre race so everyone knows the score.

Looking back to Germany, I wonder who would have won? Vettel and Max would be a no.

Perhaps they should reprofile some corners to make them a lot sharper and then when the drivers cut them they might end up taking the route they should have done in the first place.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Bacus wrote:Unnecesary complicated. It will became a game of penalties.

What's wrong with using all the space you want if you can drive on it? (generally, not chicanes and stuff like that where you can gain immense amount of time).
In F1 everything is already too tight, especially with this new era 2m wide cars. Then everything is very calculated with line, driving style etc Why not give some more space where is due? It will look more spectacular (also Toto said that) and will give more variety, which is very needed. And it will ease a headache for the stewards.

'O but you should drive on track not outside it, that's racing'. Who decides where the track limit is? It's a relative thing, here let's allow on this exit more room. Anything artificially made its part of the track. 'Ohh but the rules...' Change the rules for the better.
Generally the tracks that have more variety in terms of racing line, track width, provide more overtaking posibilities. Not stop/go tracks. This is what the government of F1 and some fans fail to see.
F1 needs variety and more play space for the driver, not ultra-strict rules that will turn it into make or brake scenario.

So a track like Paul Ricard which is all tarmac..... ?

Yeah I really don't understand when people advocate tracks that look like colourful parking lots. I also don't know how it would make it look more spectacular if we didn't enforce the rules. Spectacular is when we see drivers wrestling their cars to keep it on the track. Removing the track, and there's no incentive to fight to keep the car online.

shoot999 wrote:Yes we could penalise every driver who was forced off the track by another, dodged a bit of debris , missed a breaking point, etc. Just find a way of policing 5 miles or so of white lines x 20 cars. And then sit around for a few hours whilst the stewards worked out the penalties they had to rescind post race.

Or alternatively do what most forms of racing do. Sort it out in the briefing room pre race so everyone knows the score.

Looking back to Germany, I wonder who would have won? Vettel and Max would be a no.

Get 20 interns who would be more than happy to work at minimum wage policing F1 cars

j man wrote:The problem is that there is no desire from those inside the sport to enforce track limits. I recall Toto Wolff saying once that he was in favour of removing track limits altogether and letting the drivers go wherever they want because the fans want to see drivers pushing and going as fast as possible, not being constricted by something so trivial as a white line marking the boundary of the race track. How nice of him to tell us what we want to see without asking us.

I can think of no other sport where the boundary of the field of play is open to interpretation by the competitors.

Racing at Paul Ricard could become quite interesting then...

Heres a thought, a radical one.

There does seem that there are some corners that are near impossible to get without at least 2 wheels over the lines, year in, year out, be it merc, ferrari, red bull, Lewis, max, seb.. They all do it.. And have for years, which begs the question. Why is that the track limit if the cars seem to find it impossible to stick to it, why not in those areas widen it.

That's only on the corners where its always been a bit of an issue though

Why has no one thought of that? That some tracks are simply too tight for modern cars?

Bobafett wrote:Heres a thought, a radical one.

There does seem that there are some corners that are near impossible to get without at least 2 wheels over the lines, year in, year out, be it merc, ferrari, red bull, Lewis, max, seb.. They all do it.. And have for years, which begs the question. Why is that the track limit if the cars seem to find it impossible to stick to it, why not in those areas widen it.

That's only on the corners where its always been a bit of an issue though

Why has no one thought of that? That some tracks are simply too tight for modern cars?

Because they're doing it to go faster. Name a corner where drivers are consistently going off, and I 100% guarantee you that they're only doing it because they gain time by doing it. If you put a wall there, they'd suddenly find it within the limits of the car to stay on track. The tightest corners on the calendar are in Monaco, and they manage to navigate those.

Bobafett wrote:Heres a thought, a radical one.

There does seem that there are some corners that are near impossible to get without at least 2 wheels over the lines, year in, year out, be it merc, ferrari, red bull, Lewis, max, seb.. They all do it.. And have for years, which begs the question. Why is that the track limit if the cars seem to find it impossible to stick to it, why not in those areas widen it.

That's only on the corners where its always been a bit of an issue though

Why has no one thought of that? That some tracks are simply too tight for modern cars?

It's only near impossible because of the speed they take through the corner. Those corners where you see that they never intend intend to stay fully on track.

If they can get round Loes hairpin in Monaco without hitting the wall they can get round the Parabolica at Monza. In fact amazingly enough when it was gravel on the outside they all used to manage fine.

So under this new enforce the track limits, Hamilton would have been penalised after Leclerc had him off; and maybe had the penalty rescinded some time in the future?......and later both Ham and Leclerc would have penalised for missing turn 1. So a nice sedate drive to the flag for the eventual winner Bottas?

I say a transponder placed around the entire track and when drivers put tires over the line the car decelerates quickly to allow the driver to get it back on-track immediately and acceleration will only resume once back within track bounds.

It's reeeeeeeally aggravating to see cars running waaaaaay over the line every single lap as if it's the normal racing line. I don't get why drivers say and feel it's not possible to not exceed the line, yet if you place a wall there, they can stay within track bounds just fine. It's such BS and it really takes away from the racing.

Coat the white lines with a chemical that degrades the tyre surface

If they cross the lines they'll need to pit to change tyres.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:I say a transponder placed around the entire track and when drivers put tires over the line the car decelerates quickly to allow the driver to get it back on-track immediately and acceleration will only resume once back within track bounds.

It's reeeeeeeally aggravating to see cars running waaaaaay over the line every single lap as if it's the normal racing line. I don't get why drivers say and feel it's not possible to not exceed the line, yet if you place a wall there, they can stay within track bounds just fine. It's such BS and it really takes away from the racing.

So Perez would have come out on top after forcing Albon onto the grass at Spa? Even more reason to be reckless if there is a chance of being overtaken then.

If a driver loses more time by going off track then they won't as readily move off track and these incidents will instead result in contact. Drivers won't continue to push each other off it they think it will result in a crash so it will actually solve that problem as well.

Just bring a strip of grass back.

A lot of the faster corners that have the huge asphalt run-off can still exist, but putting a bit of grass on the edge of the circuit, say 5 meters worth, would be a good solution in many areas. As many have suggested.

I still think there is way too much run-off at corners that just don't need them. The FIA overreacted on this, I think, on many tracks. Newer tracks like COTA have an ABSURD amount, it's just not necessary.

Hopefully they review this and don't continue to overdo it, and bring back grass and gravel at some corners where it is still safe to do so.

shoot999 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:I say a transponder placed around the entire track and when drivers put tires over the line the car decelerates quickly to allow the driver to get it back on-track immediately and acceleration will only resume once back within track bounds.

It's reeeeeeeally aggravating to see cars running waaaaaay over the line every single lap as if it's the normal racing line. I don't get why drivers say and feel it's not possible to not exceed the line, yet if you place a wall there, they can stay within track bounds just fine. It's such BS and it really takes away from the racing.

So Perez would have come out on top after forcing Albon onto the grass at Spa? Even more reason to be reckless if there is a chance of being overtaken then.

Albon only put 2 wheels on the grass so I imagine a system could detect if it’s 2 wheels or 4.
Also such a system should only be used at certain corners where going off yields an advantage. No point using it on the Spa main straight. I like that idea. Today’s tech should make it possible.

kleefton wrote:

shoot999 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:I say a transponder placed around the entire track and when drivers put tires over the line the car decelerates quickly to allow the driver to get it back on-track immediately and acceleration will only resume once back within track bounds.

It's reeeeeeeally aggravating to see cars running waaaaaay over the line every single lap as if it's the normal racing line. I don't get why drivers say and feel it's not possible to not exceed the line, yet if you place a wall there, they can stay within track bounds just fine. It's such BS and it really takes away from the racing.

So Perez would have come out on top after forcing Albon onto the grass at Spa? Even more reason to be reckless if there is a chance of being overtaken then.

Albon only put 2 wheels on the grass so I imagine a system could detect if it’s 2 wheels or 4.
Also such a system should only be used at certain corners where going off yields an advantage. No point using it on the Spa main straight. I like that idea. Today’s tech should make it possible.

Installed years ago at Brands, but not sure of its worth, or even if its still used.

kleefton wrote:

shoot999 wrote:

F1 MERCENARY wrote:I say a transponder placed around the entire track and when drivers put tires over the line the car decelerates quickly to allow the driver to get it back on-track immediately and acceleration will only resume once back within track bounds.

It's reeeeeeeally aggravating to see cars running waaaaaay over the line every single lap as if it's the normal racing line. I don't get why drivers say and feel it's not possible to not exceed the line, yet if you place a wall there, they can stay within track bounds just fine. It's such BS and it really takes away from the racing.

So Perez would have come out on top after forcing Albon onto the grass at Spa? Even more reason to be reckless if there is a chance of being overtaken then.

Albon only put 2 wheels on the grass so I imagine a system could detect if it’s 2 wheels or 4.
Also such a system should only be used at certain corners where going off yields an advantage. No point using it on the Spa main straight. I like that idea. Today’s tech should make it possible.

You get it!

I'm sure he understood it just the same but you know how people are on forums. They can't help but argue for the sake of doing so, for fun.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Bobafett wrote:Heres a thought, a radical one.

There does seem that there are some corners that are near impossible to get without at least 2 wheels over the lines, year in, year out, be it merc, ferrari, red bull, Lewis, max, seb.. They all do it.. And have for years, which begs the question. Why is that the track limit if the cars seem to find it impossible to stick to it, why not in those areas widen it.

That's only on the corners where its always been a bit of an issue though

Why has no one thought of that? That some tracks are simply too tight for modern cars?

It's only near impossible because of the speed they take through the corner. Those corners where you see that they never intend intend to stay fully on track.

If they can get round Loes hairpin in Monaco without hitting the wall they can get round the Parabolica at Monza. In fact amazingly enough when it was gravel on the outside they all used to manage fine.

Quite. It's rather hilarious for the FIA to carp about drivers exceeding track limits and then letting Vettel blatantly do it. I must admit kudos to SD for his comment on CH4 'Well, his shadow is inside the line'.... F1 needs to stop making allowances for the name drivers. I mean if Kevin M had crowded Hamilton off the track I'm sure it would have been a different story. It seems when a 'name' guy does something it's brave and when a younger guy does it it's reckless.

simonr23 wrote:Crazy idea. Maybe the stewards could enforce track limits on the full length of each track, in all sessions- with discretion used where extraordinary circumstances are present.

I otherwise don’t know why they both marking track boundaries and referencing them in documentation.

There are 2 different but linked problems.

Drivers deliberately driving off the track. A cable sunk in the track at for example 1m from the edge of the track could be used to automatically penalise a driver for exceeding the track. There could be an audible warning which changed to tell them how close they are to being penalised. That system could also be used to inform drivers about cars overlapping them if there were sensors built into each car. The actual overlapping can take place at very high speed, so the system could be used to assign blame - such that if the lead driver does not have a realistic opportunity to react, then the attacking driver would be punished.

Drivers forced off the track. So if you are going to be penalised for going off the track unless you were forced off the track, the stewards will still need to be involved for that, so every time a car goes off the track, they would need to look at that. The data could be analysed by computer based on a set of rules to minimise the number of incidents the stewards have to look at.

I'm all for drivers driving on the actual race track - I think it would slow the speeds, but the racing would be better.

Agree with the above, it will be interesting with the new regulations, with the ground effect relying on a smooth track surface and requiring some sort of seal to that surface. If the cars go of track they run the risk of breaking that seal and losing downforce, (depending on the type of run off of course).
That would make control in the corners much more of a challenge and act as a disincentive.

There is no need for a system built into the run-offs at all those F1 tracks, when all cars are fitted with on-board cameras. If a camera is again fitted centrally instead of on the driver's shoulder, then doubt can quickly be dispelled. And let's not forget that it was/is the duty of the marshals to report all transgressions.

I think that if the sport took precedence over silly excitement, it would take a maximum of two races before all the drivers would understand the rules. Who knows, they might even dive into the rulebooks and actually read and study them!

I find it difficult to stomach that, one week after a driver lost his life, and a day after another had a very lucky escape, a driver forcing another off the track is put on the highest step of the podium, and that the current world champion declares that he will adapt his conduct according to the new disregard for the published rules. What on earth is wrong with motorsport?

Fiki wrote:There is no need for a system built into the run-offs at all those F1 tracks, when all cars are fitted with on-board cameras. If a camera is again fitted centrally instead of on the driver's shoulder, then doubt can quickly be dispelled. And let's not forget that it was/is the duty of the marshals to report all transgressions.

I think that if the sport took precedence over silly excitement, it would take a maximum of two races before all the drivers would understand the rules. Who knows, they might even dive into the rulebooks and actually read and study them!

I find it difficult to stomach that, one week after a driver lost his life, and a day after another had a very lucky escape, a driver forcing another off the track is put on the highest step of the podium, and that the current world champion declares that he will adapt his conduct according to the new disregard for the published rules. What on earth is wrong with motorsport?

What's wrong with motorsport is the rather loose and arbitrary enforcement of the "rules" coupled with the new guys caring less and less each season about them and caring more about finding out how far they can push limits before they're told tom reign it in. And the problem is in that last bit, these kids are being allowed to push beyond the regulations for what seems to me to be in favor of a more exciting show to hopefully grow the fan base as much as possible regardless of how it comes about. Verstappen is a prime example of this because coming into F1 he was quick right out of the gate BUT would make rash decisions that often ended in contact either with another driver or the track. And what's worse is that he did many things with considerable frequency that went unpunished and so, all the other youngsters waiting in the wings witnessed him pushing boundaries and going unpunished so they then adopted a similar mentality.

Leclerc is one that until Verstappen did him dirty was a rather clean driver in every regard, but it was clear from his own words that he was not happy about how Verstappen was allowed to play dirty and himself said that now he knew what was allowed so he's aware of what he's allowed to do in future battles, WHICH screwed race control in that BECAUSE they allowed Verstappen's dirty tactic, they then could not penalize Leclerc for doing the same in the future. It set precedent that they couldn't go back on. It cemented what's allowed moving forward and that's not a good thing.

I will say that Leclerc on Hamilton wasn't as bad as what Verstappen did to Leclerc, but it falls within the same spectrum.

As stated, motorsport just endured a death and one driver clinging onto life, and another injured in a freak accident, and motorsport is dangerous enough by it's very essence, so I wish that wiser figureheads would say screw everything and meet with everyone and state very clearly what's allowed and what's not allowed and from this moment you play within the rules or you don't get to play.

Just line all tracks with walls just under a cars width off track. Problem solved.

No way would that solve the problem because then drivers on the inside would put opponents into said walls because they'll argue they need the added car's width to maximize their own speed and going slower would compromise their race. SMH

F1 MERCENARY wrote:No way would that solve the problem because then drivers on the inside would put opponents into said walls because they'll argue they need the added car's width to maximize their own speed and going slower would compromise their race. SMH

Then both drivers would crash. Wouldn't happen often before they learned.

That's just it, these knuckleheads aren't learning. look at Verstappen last week… Back to his old habits of forcing the issue just because he HAS TO BE IN FRONT NOOOOOW!
rather than bide his time and drive his but off while exercising wisdom garnered from past mistakes/incidents.

Leclerc, instead of trying an over/under decided he'd not leave a car's width to the edge of the track and screw it.

Doesn't seem like they're learning the right things and are proving to be learning the opposite.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:That's just it, these knuckleheads aren't learning. look at Verstappen last week… Back to his old habits of forcing the issue just because he HAS TO BE IN FRONT NOOOOOW!
rather than bide his time and drive his but off while exercising wisdom garnered from past mistakes/incidents.

Leclerc, instead of trying an over/under decided he'd not leave a car's width to the edge of the track and screw it.

Doesn't seem like they're learning the right things and are proving to be learning the opposite.

Nothing like that happened to Verstappen last week?

Leclerc would have left a cars width if there had been a wall there and not leaving a cars width would have guaranteed a collision.

I meant 2 weeks ago at Spa.

But you are proving my point with the 2nd part of your post. We need to forget the "IFS" and hold drivers accountable for disregarding rules based on IFS.
In any other sport a foul is a foul and infractions incur penalties. The problem is the arbitrary enforcement of the rules for the sake of whatever is on the agenda on any given day. IF F1 appointed a full-time static committee of professionals to monitor every single race, who are itching to hand out penalties, drivers would change their tune effective immediately. But EVERYONE needs to change the mentality of "IFS" once and for all and accept that there are rules & regulations in place that drivers are supposed to adhere to DURING COMPETITION.

ALESI wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Bobafett wrote:Heres a thought, a radical one.

There does seem that there are some corners that are near impossible to get without at least 2 wheels over the lines, year in, year out, be it merc, ferrari, red bull, Lewis, max, seb.. They all do it.. And have for years, which begs the question. Why is that the track limit if the cars seem to find it impossible to stick to it, why not in those areas widen it.

That's only on the corners where its always been a bit of an issue though

Why has no one thought of that? That some tracks are simply too tight for modern cars?

It's only near impossible because of the speed they take through the corner. Those corners where you see that they never intend intend to stay fully on track.

If they can get round Loes hairpin in Monaco without hitting the wall they can get round the Parabolica at Monza. In fact amazingly enough when it was gravel on the outside they all used to manage fine.

Quite. It's rather hilarious for the FIA to carp about drivers exceeding track limits and then letting Vettel blatantly do it. I must admit kudos to SD for his comment on CH4 'Well, his shadow is inside the line'.... F1 needs to stop making allowances for the name drivers. I mean if Kevin M had crowded Hamilton off the track I'm sure it would have been a different story. It seems when a 'name' guy does something it's brave and when a younger guy does it it's reckless.

Is there any evidence to prove that he did, without doubt, exceed track limits in that corner though? A penalty should only be given in an instance of breaking track limits if it is absolutely certain that the driver did indeed do so. The FIA deemed that there was not enough evidence to suggest he did break track limits, which is good enough for me.

And in response to Mikeyg's comment - it used to happen quite a bit that drivers would run onto the gravel quite spectacularly if you recall. We just see it a lot more because the risk-reward is much less effective now, unfortunately.

GRAVEL TRAPS or SAND TRAPS.

Simple but effective.