F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

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Asphalt_World
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F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by Asphalt_World »

OMG. Astonishing crash in F3, all down to sausage kerbs. Car launched and flipped a couple of times in the air before landing on crash barrier. Can't believe the driver has been able to walk away.

Sausage kerbs will surely not be in F1 again after this.

I can't believe what I just witnessed. Words fail me.

But he's walked to the medical car.
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Yellowbin74
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by Yellowbin74 »

How on earth did it take off like that???
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by Jezza13 »



That's unbelievable.

Very lucky boy & very lucky marshals.
Last edited by Jezza13 on Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Only took 7 yrs, 5 mths & 21 days.

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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by Asphalt_World »

I'm tempted to say that as he landed upside down on the barrier, the halo probably saved his life.

I actually feel a little sick even though he's walked away.
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by Asphalt_World »

Just look how the cockpit landed on the tyre wall upside down.
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by Banana Man »

F**k me, that’s some Mario Kart s**t right there. Thank goodness he walked away.
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Yellowbin74
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by Yellowbin74 »

I have no defence against the halo these days. FIA know best sometimes. Lets see what they say about this strange accident.
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by Option or Prime »

I simply do not understand the physics involved in that, the height is extraordinary. The older tracks just do not seem to suitable for todays racing.

Looking at it again he hits the end of the sausage kerb, its like a ramp.
Last edited by Option or Prime on Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by Jezza13 »

Looks like the launching point was with whatever's on the floor pretty much directly underneath the driver.

Is that where the skid plank starts?
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by shoot999 »

Expect all the sausage kerbs gone by Practice 3.

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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by UnlikeUday »

It's impossible to rule out freak accidents from any sport. Sadly, an incident is always like a lesson learnt from where safety points are noted & implied for future.
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by TheBlackFlag »

Thank god he walked away. Awful feeling to see that. Did he hit a sausage kerb at a weird angle?

Option or Prime
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by Option or Prime »

Have I got this right?

The sausage kerb is there to enforce track limits and prevent drivers taking different lines to go faster. When these circuits were designed the curves were drivable given the performance of the car. Now the speeds are higher, even in F3 it seems those curves can't be taken without changing the driving line significantly.
The circuit was built in 1922, nearly a hundred years ago.
In the 20's and 30's HP was about 150 HP for a supercharged 2L engine, the 2015 Mercedes was 700 HP with 160 extra from the ERS. Isn't it about time for tracks to be sympathetic to todays performance and track limits to be enforced?

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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by mikeyg123 »

Option or Prime wrote:Have I got this right?

The sausage kerb is there to enforce track limits and prevent drivers taking different lines to go faster. When these circuits were designed the curves were drivable given the performance of the car. Now the speeds are higher, even in F3 it seems those curves can't be taken without changing the driving line significantly.
The circuit was built in 1922, nearly a hundred years ago.
In the 20's and 30's HP was about 150 HP for a supercharged 2L engine, the 2015 Mercedes was 700 HP with 160 extra from the ERS. Isn't it about time for tracks to be sympathetic to todays performance and track limits to be enforced?
I'm not sure I understand this post? Do you mean we shouldn't have high speed corners ?

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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by pokerman »

Back to tarmac run off areas again and the ability of drivers to keep their cars flat out when they run wide, if sausage kerbs are too dangerous then it's back to gravel and grass.
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by Option or Prime »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Have I got this right?

The sausage kerb is there to enforce track limits and prevent drivers taking different lines to go faster. When these circuits were designed the curves were drivable given the performance of the car. Now the speeds are higher, even in F3 it seems those curves can't be taken without changing the driving line significantly.
The circuit was built in 1922, nearly a hundred years ago.
In the 20's and 30's HP was about 150 HP for a supercharged 2L engine, the 2015 Mercedes was 700 HP with 160 extra from the ERS. Isn't it about time for tracks to be sympathetic to todays performance and track limits to be enforced?
I'm not sure I understand this post? Do you mean we shouldn't have high speed corners ?
Not at all, its just that if you look at most circuits the line into curve at the point of entry and exit will vary given the speed. At low speed it will be a sharper curve than at high speed.

The curves profile fitted the track in the early days but as the curve gets shallower with highr speed there come a point where the faster curve no longer fits the physical profile of the track.
Isn't that why we see drivers going off circuit with 2 wheels to get through the curve as fast as possible.

Doesn't it make sense to modify the track to fit those curves OR make them go slower to stay on track?

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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by Jezza13 »

Sky report it looks like the try under the car actually wedged itself under the sausage curve causing Pironi's car to catapult when the curve reached the man body of the tray on his car propelling it skyward.
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by SmoothRide »

Jezza13 wrote:

That's unbelievable.

Very lucky boy & very lucky marshals.
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by wolfticket »

I think the front/side view is the scariest: It really does give a sense of quite how far and fast it flew 8O

As mentioned above, it does look rather like it went into the wall cockpit first, which suggests Halo did it's job.
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by zack14 »

That is shocking 8O

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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by Option or Prime »

Certainly does, the car does a 11/2 somersault and a 720 spin, how do you walk to the medical car after that? I think I'd be doing an impersonation of a jelly!

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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by mikeyg123 »

Option or Prime wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:Have I got this right?

The sausage kerb is there to enforce track limits and prevent drivers taking different lines to go faster. When these circuits were designed the curves were drivable given the performance of the car. Now the speeds are higher, even in F3 it seems those curves can't be taken without changing the driving line significantly.
The circuit was built in 1922, nearly a hundred years ago.
In the 20's and 30's HP was about 150 HP for a supercharged 2L engine, the 2015 Mercedes was 700 HP with 160 extra from the ERS. Isn't it about time for tracks to be sympathetic to todays performance and track limits to be enforced?
I'm not sure I understand this post? Do you mean we shouldn't have high speed corners ?
Not at all, its just that if you look at most circuits the line into curve at the point of entry and exit will vary given the speed. At low speed it will be a sharper curve than at high speed.

The curves profile fitted the track in the early days but as the curve gets shallower with highr speed there come a point where the faster curve no longer fits the physical profile of the track.
Isn't that why we see drivers going off circuit with 2 wheels to get through the curve as fast as possible.

Doesn't it make sense to modify the track to fit those curves OR make them go slower to stay on track?
Tracks shouldn't be modified. Drivers are meant to stay on track and there is no reason why they can't. They don't because they don't have to.

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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by Option or Prime »

Which is what I was implying Mikeyg, sausage kerbs are just a token effort to persuade drivers to stay on track. I'm moving more and more towards the sensor and chip solution with grass as a run off as pokerman is suggesting.

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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by UnlikeUday »

pokerman wrote:Back to tarmac run off areas again and the ability of drivers to keep their cars flat out when they run wide, if sausage kerbs are too dangerous then it's back to gravel and grass.
Gravel & grass will surely do more good than harm. No doubt drivers keep pushing to find the absolute limit but there has to be a limit i.e gravel & grass!
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by Jezza13 »

Option or Prime wrote:Which is what I was implying Mikeyg, sausage kerbs are just a token effort to persuade drivers to stay on track. I'm moving more and more towards the sensor and chip solution with grass as a run off as pokerman is suggesting.
Yeah it's old technology. V8 Supercars have been using it for years with success. I'm sure other series have been using it too.

I suggested this a few years ago if there's any issue with fitting a sensors to the cars or they really don't want to force the tracks to foot a bill for going back to grass & tarmac just a few years after getting rid of them.

It's simple, easy to set up & monitor, not invasive & pretty much fool proof.

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Simply run them across the points at which cars could leave the track limits to gain an advantage. As soon as a car runs over the ribbon, a sensor attached to the ribbon sends a signal to race control. They view footage of who ran over it & determine if a warning should be issued.

3 warnings = penalty.

There. Job done.
Last edited by Jezza13 on Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Only took 7 yrs, 5 mths & 21 days.

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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by jimmyj »

What a terrible accident, thank goodness no one was killed. Sensors in the pavement seem like a smarter way to manage track limits than big kerbs.

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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by Asphalt_World »

The thing that causes a problem is the fact that F1 cars only visit circuits once a year and changes made for them are not always useful for other forms of motorsport. We all know motorbikes need some different safety features in certain corners and that's a big reason bikes don't race at certain circuits.

However, I do know that the removal of gravel traps has had a huge financial benefit motorsport teams outside of F1, WEC and a few other rich race series because it means that other than huge crashes, small offs are not resulting in bodywork breaking as a car slides through gravel, the underside is kept undamaged and gravel getting in to all the mechanical parts doesn't happen. I hear 1st hand that this has saved teams thousands and thousands of pounds. Circuits need grass route motorsport to stay alive.

Track days are also a huge money spinner for circuits allowing them an income through the winter months where racing is almost none existent. The fact that the likes of you and me can go and have fun in our own cars, without getting them ruined in a gravel trap when we run out of tallent, is very beneficial to circuit survival.
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by lord byron »

Ive never been one to downplay things but this does seem like a one off,

I agree with Villeneuve if young drivers took less risks and think its ok to go at it like hammer and tongs and have the attitude that oh well its 2019 not 1950 my super duper all dancing designed cockpit will save me they are dreaming last week proved that anything can still happen.
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by UnlikeUday »

jimmyj wrote:What a terrible accident, thank goodness no one was killed. Sensors in the pavement seem like a smarter way to manage track limits than big kerbs.
This was somewhat similar to Webber's accident at Valencia. Webber was at a bigger risk as at a higher speed & there was no halo as well.
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by Asphalt_World »

If hawkeye can spot a tiny tennis ball travelling at 140mph and judge it's position within a few millimetres, I'm sure being able to monitor a huge car at similar speeds shouldn't be beyond the wit of man. This would inform the stewards of a car going off track within seconds.
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by mikeyg123 »

Nothing works as well as gravel for preventing drivers from going off track.

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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by Banana Man »

What tracks need is a 1m wide strip of gravel, next to the edge of the track. Not large enough to beach or roll a car if they go flying off but enough to dirty the tyres and lose a load of time if you run wide.

Nobody seems to put four wheels off the track at the Roggia, I wonder why?
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by Asphalt_World »

mikeyg123 wrote:Nothing works as well as gravel for preventing drivers from going off track.
100% correct. There's a problem though because there's not a lot worse than gravel for causing a car that has gone off to skip through the air and in to a barrier without slowing down.

Swing and roundabouts I'm afraid.
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by Asphalt_World »

Banana Man wrote:What tracks need is a 1m wide strip of gravel, next to the edge of the track. Not large enough to beach or roll a car if they go flying off but enough to dirty the tyres and lose a load of time if you run wide.

Nobody seems to put four wheels off the track at the Roggia, I wonder why?
Yes, but the speed on the exit of that chicane will never be fast so gravel works brilliant's to keep them on track without the danger of car's skipping over it at vast speeds. It's a different matter at fast entry corners though.
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by Banana Man »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Banana Man wrote:What tracks need is a 1m wide strip of gravel, next to the edge of the track. Not large enough to beach or roll a car if they go flying off but enough to dirty the tyres and lose a load of time if you run wide.

Nobody seems to put four wheels off the track at the Roggia, I wonder why?
Yes, but the speed on the exit of that chicane will never be fast so gravel works brilliant's to keep them on track without the danger of car's skipping over it at vast speeds. It's a different matter at fast entry corners though.
That’s why we should only have a 1m strip. Once you skip a cross it your on flat tarmac again and the risk of rolling is much reduced.

Drivers would also run wide a lot less if there was an actual punishment for doing it and no time to be gained.
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by Asphalt_World »

Banana Man wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Banana Man wrote:What tracks need is a 1m wide strip of gravel, next to the edge of the track. Not large enough to beach or roll a car if they go flying off but enough to dirty the tyres and lose a load of time if you run wide.

Nobody seems to put four wheels off the track at the Roggia, I wonder why?
Yes, but the speed on the exit of that chicane will never be fast so gravel works brilliant's to keep them on track without the danger of car's skipping over it at vast speeds. It's a different matter at fast entry corners though.
That’s why we should only have a 1m strip. Once you skip a cross it your on flat tarmac again and the risk of rolling is much reduced.

Drivers would also run wide a lot less if there was an actual punishment for doing it and no time to be gained.
I've thought before that a small strip would make the difference. I only wonder that as the gravel needs to be a track level, it would basically be in a little dug out trough and I worry that a car would still be caused a lot of trouble if they slid in to that sideways.
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

Peroni suffered a fractured vertebrae.
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Re: F3 Monza Crash - all seems OK though.

Post by Exediron »

Holy moly! That's the sort of accident you see in a videogame and complain about the physics engine! :lol:

Glad he was okay and we can laugh about it now, but yeah - that needs to be looked at.
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The Peroni F3 Accident was SCARY!

Post by DFWdude »

Here's the slo-mo of the Peroni flight during the F3 race.

http://www.espn.co.uk/video/clip?id=27557450

A question...
What was that 20-feet of sausage curbing doing all by its lonesome on the curve? Looks beyond ancient and should have been removed long ago.

And a Comment...
Looks like the Halo did its job very well. This would have been far more serious without it.

Oooops. Just saw the other thread. Sorry.
Last edited by DFWdude on Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Peroni F3 Accident was SCARY!

Post by Asphalt_World »

DFWdude wrote:Here's the slo-mo of the Peroni flight during the F3 race.

http://www.espn.co.uk/video/clip?id=27557450

A question...
What was that 20-feet of sausage curbing doing all by its lonesome on the curve? Looks beyond ancient and should have been removed long ago.

And a Comment...
Looks like the Halo did its job very well. This would have been far more serious without it.
The sausage was anything but ancient. It's a modern way to stop drivers gaining advantage by running wide. It failed massively today and won't be seen again.
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