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Pullrod wrote:As usual F1 fans forumers generally tend to converge to a consensus even tough it is a cr*p one such as in Sainz's case.

Sainz's Renault was hugely misleading as he was not happy about his situation(he said that himself) and failed to score BIG (also because of lack of reliability or misunderstanding of the car) when the car was competitive at the beginning of the year like Hulkenberg.

I followed all the FP sessions when Sainz and Verstappen were both in ToroRosso and there was nothing between them.

Carlos is no Hulkenberg and will take his first podium at the very first occasion.

He is the best starter in today's grid, consistent in the race, and very good in the rain. People will be shocked the day he will put his hands on a Top car. Mark my words.

I was even more surprised to learn that McLaren were the first to be impressed by Sainz's speed and concistency(did you forget the beating he gave to Kvyat??).
It seems that F1 teams are as bad as the average F1 fan who bases his impression on what is shown by the TV director and on what the most vocal forum members or Crofty or Brundle say. The only guy(not really, because I know of another WDC ) in the entire paddock who rated Sainz at the Top is Franz Tost.

And the more I see of Ricciardo vs Hulkenberg the more I am convinced he will kick some serious a*s when given the right tools. RIC is always there about with HUL in the race, unlike SAI who when he was fast he was really fast and was leaving HUL in his wake.

I said years ago(the only one foolish enough) that he will put a much better fight against Verstappen than Ricciardo but for some reason in F1 reputation or hype are more important than actual talent and results.

Norris is doing very well, the problem is Sainz who is underrated!!

Interesting take on it.
If he is that good, why do you think Red Bull passed on Sainz for 2019?

Surely he was a safer bet than Gasly.
To keep Max happy maybe...

Pullrod wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Pullrod wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

froze wrote: Exactly, I think this is the biggest merit Sainz has as of date. Although he lost to Verstappen in points, pace-wise he was very close to Verstappen, probably even closer than Ricciardo. Purely on that, I would rate Sainz higher than just another average midfield driver as some here are saying. Still unproven whether he can be considered a top driver but I would say he definitely has potential.

It's hard to know. Verstappen was in only his second year of racing cars. Sainz was a lot more experienced. I would guess Sainz is about Hulkenberg level. They were about even as team mates by the end of last year. I would put Hulk, Perez, Sainz and Bottas in a group together. Maybe with Perez slightly above the rest.

That's Ricciardo

I'm confused.. Hulkenberg and Sainz were team mates last year.

You are right.. I was thinking about this year and how HUL and RIC are the most closely matched pairing in the grid.

They are close. Most closely matched on the grid... I'm less sure. Ricciardo seems to be more often than not just a little bit better.

If you believe they are that close then you have to believe Perez is an absolute super star.

Which is fine by me

Pullrod wrote:As usual F1 fans forumers generally tend to converge to a consensus even tough it is a cr*p one such as in Sainz's case.

Sainz's Renault was hugely misleading as he was not happy about his situation(he said that himself) and failed to score BIG (also because of lack of reliability or misunderstanding of the car) when the car was competitive at the beginning of the year like Hulkenberg.

I followed all the FP sessions when Sainz and Verstappen were both in ToroRosso and there was nothing between them.

Carlos is no Hulkenberg and will take his first podium at the very first occasion.

He is the best starter in today's grid, consistent in the race, and very good in the rain. People will be shocked the day he will put his hands on a Top car. Mark my words.

I was even more surprised to learn that McLaren were the first to be impressed by Sainz's speed and concistency(did you forget the beating he gave to Kvyat??).
It seems that F1 teams are as bad as the average F1 fan who bases his impression on what is shown by the TV director and on what the most vocal forum members or Crofty or Brundle say. The only guy(not really, because I know of another WDC ) in the entire paddock who rated Sainz at the Top is Franz Tost.

And the more I see of Ricciardo vs Hulkenberg the more I am convinced he will kick some serious a*s when given the right tools. RIC is always there about with HUL in the race, unlike SAI who when he was fast he was really fast and was leaving HUL in his wake.

I said years ago(the only one foolish enough) that he will put a much better fight against Verstappen than Ricciardo but for some reason in F1 reputation or hype are more important than actual talent and results.

Norris is doing very well, the problem is Sainz who is underrated!!

I don't think we can compare him to Verstappen. It is clear Verstappen has improved significantly since then with beating Ricciardo and all that. Sainz has since had an underperforming Kvyat, then Hulknenberg who to me was overall better than him - certainly to begin with. Then he is now against an unknown - but is getting outqualified which is not great.

This is my opinion, but i think he is one of the weaker drivers on the grid in terms of wheel to wheel racing. In 2017, he had several very clumsy moments. One in Bahrain walloping into the side of Stroll and causing himself and Stroll to retire. One of the most dangerous moves of the season in Canada. He forced Grosjean onto the grass, then Grosjean came back on track and is seemed like Sainz still thought he was still there and suddenly turned back into him, spinning himself out of control and knocking himself and Massa out of the race and nearly taking Grosjean with him. He also caused at least 5 other drivers to take avoiding action to avoid all the madness. That should have got a bigger penalty than it was. If Massa was in a slightly different position, it could have been comparable to Grosjean's Spa 2012 move. Downright dangerous. Even much later in the season for his last race for Toro Rosso at Japan, he simply took himself out by running wide. The amount of rookie mistakes he made this season was very bad indeed. To me even the start of 2018 looked poor but then he started to look better after this.

This year, he certainly looks incredibly solid and mistake free pretty much every race, but he's getting outqualified and while i think he has better race pace than Noris, Noris is having such bad luck in races that half the time they are not comparable. And I think the McLaren is so good that Sainz just isn't really getting challenged by anyone so he's being solid but not having a hard time. Sorry to say, but as i mentioned earlier, i don't think his racing ability is very good. He's a bit like Grosjean in terms of his spacial awareness.

Not that I would really blame him over verstappen for this incident. But most other drivers have quick reactions and suddenly turn out the way to avoid contact when Verstappen does a move like this. Sainz just seemes to stay with it and then retire. I mean he had no right to, but surely he expected it coming given how close Verstappen was. The number of times drivers have managed to avoid verstappen by taking avoiding action over the whole time he's been in F1 is huge now. I thought Sainz would have at least tried to avoid what looked likely to happen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18OE3O_t7mM

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Pullrod wrote:As usual F1 fans forumers generally tend to converge to a consensus even tough it is a cr*p one such as in Sainz's case.

Sainz's Renault was hugely misleading as he was not happy about his situation(he said that himself) and failed to score BIG (also because of lack of reliability or misunderstanding of the car) when the car was competitive at the beginning of the year like Hulkenberg.

I followed all the FP sessions when Sainz and Verstappen were both in ToroRosso and there was nothing between them.

Carlos is no Hulkenberg and will take his first podium at the very first occasion.

He is the best starter in today's grid, consistent in the race, and very good in the rain. People will be shocked the day he will put his hands on a Top car. Mark my words.

I was even more surprised to learn that McLaren were the first to be impressed by Sainz's speed and concistency(did you forget the beating he gave to Kvyat??).
It seems that F1 teams are as bad as the average F1 fan who bases his impression on what is shown by the TV director and on what the most vocal forum members or Crofty or Brundle say. The only guy(not really, because I know of another WDC ) in the entire paddock who rated Sainz at the Top is Franz Tost.

And the more I see of Ricciardo vs Hulkenberg the more I am convinced he will kick some serious a*s when given the right tools. RIC is always there about with HUL in the race, unlike SAI who when he was fast he was really fast and was leaving HUL in his wake.

I said years ago(the only one foolish enough) that he will put a much better fight against Verstappen than Ricciardo but for some reason in F1 reputation or hype are more important than actual talent and results.

Norris is doing very well, the problem is Sainz who is underrated!!

I don't think we can compare him to Verstappen. It is clear Verstappen has improved significantly since then with beating Ricciardo and all that. Sainz has since had an underperforming Kvyat, then Hulknenberg who to me was overall better than him - certainly to begin with. Then he is now against an unknown - but is getting outqualified which is not great.

This is my opinion, but i think he is one of the weaker drivers on the grid in terms of wheel to wheel racing. In 2017, he had several very clumsy moments. One in Bahrain walloping into the side of Stroll and causing himself and Stroll to retire. One of the most dangerous moves of the season in Canada. He forced Grosjean onto the grass, then Grosjean came back on track and is seemed like Sainz still thought he was still there and suddenly turned back into him, spinning himself out of control and knocking himself and Massa out of the race and nearly taking Grosjean with him. He also caused at least 5 other drivers to take avoiding action to avoid all the madness. That should have got a bigger penalty than it was. If Massa was in a slightly different position, it could have been comparable to Grosjean's Spa 2012 move. Downright dangerous. Even much later in the season for his last race for Toro Rosso at Japan, he simply took himself out by running wide. The amount of rookie mistakes he made this season was very bad indeed. To me even the start of 2018 looked poor but then he started to look better after this.

This year, he certainly looks incredibly solid and mistake free pretty much every race, but he's getting outqualified and while i think he has better race pace than Noris, Noris is having such bad luck in races that half the time they are not comparable. And I think the McLaren is so good that Sainz just isn't really getting challenged by anyone so he's being solid but not having a hard time. Sorry to say, but as i mentioned earlier, i don't think his racing ability is very good. He's a bit like Grosjean in terms of his spacial awareness.

Sainz has had bad luck too, something many refuse to see... Look closer and you will change your mind.

About contact and spatial awareness there is another Top driver(more than one to be honest) who can not race without banging wheels and is unable to finish first laps unscathed too often. Too many guys out there looking for trouble and Sainz is not one of them.

As I said F1 is about Hype and reputation.
Put Sainz in a Top car and we will have a laugh.

Pullrod wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Pullrod wrote:As usual F1 fans forumers generally tend to converge to a consensus even tough it is a cr*p one such as in Sainz's case.

Sainz's Renault was hugely misleading as he was not happy about his situation(he said that himself) and failed to score BIG (also because of lack of reliability or misunderstanding of the car) when the car was competitive at the beginning of the year like Hulkenberg.

I followed all the FP sessions when Sainz and Verstappen were both in ToroRosso and there was nothing between them.

Carlos is no Hulkenberg and will take his first podium at the very first occasion.

He is the best starter in today's grid, consistent in the race, and very good in the rain. People will be shocked the day he will put his hands on a Top car. Mark my words.

I was even more surprised to learn that McLaren were the first to be impressed by Sainz's speed and concistency(did you forget the beating he gave to Kvyat??).
It seems that F1 teams are as bad as the average F1 fan who bases his impression on what is shown by the TV director and on what the most vocal forum members or Crofty or Brundle say. The only guy(not really, because I know of another WDC ) in the entire paddock who rated Sainz at the Top is Franz Tost.

And the more I see of Ricciardo vs Hulkenberg the more I am convinced he will kick some serious a*s when given the right tools. RIC is always there about with HUL in the race, unlike SAI who when he was fast he was really fast and was leaving HUL in his wake.

I said years ago(the only one foolish enough) that he will put a much better fight against Verstappen than Ricciardo but for some reason in F1 reputation or hype are more important than actual talent and results.

Norris is doing very well, the problem is Sainz who is underrated!!

I don't think we can compare him to Verstappen. It is clear Verstappen has improved significantly since then with beating Ricciardo and all that. Sainz has since had an underperforming Kvyat, then Hulknenberg who to me was overall better than him - certainly to begin with. Then he is now against an unknown - but is getting outqualified which is not great.

This is my opinion, but i think he is one of the weaker drivers on the grid in terms of wheel to wheel racing. In 2017, he had several very clumsy moments. One in Bahrain walloping into the side of Stroll and causing himself and Stroll to retire. One of the most dangerous moves of the season in Canada. He forced Grosjean onto the grass, then Grosjean came back on track and is seemed like Sainz still thought he was still there and suddenly turned back into him, spinning himself out of control and knocking himself and Massa out of the race and nearly taking Grosjean with him. He also caused at least 5 other drivers to take avoiding action to avoid all the madness. That should have got a bigger penalty than it was. If Massa was in a slightly different position, it could have been comparable to Grosjean's Spa 2012 move. Downright dangerous. Even much later in the season for his last race for Toro Rosso at Japan, he simply took himself out by running wide. The amount of rookie mistakes he made this season was very bad indeed. To me even the start of 2018 looked poor but then he started to look better after this.

This year, he certainly looks incredibly solid and mistake free pretty much every race, but he's getting outqualified and while i think he has better race pace than Noris, Noris is having such bad luck in races that half the time they are not comparable. And I think the McLaren is so good that Sainz just isn't really getting challenged by anyone so he's being solid but not having a hard time. Sorry to say, but as i mentioned earlier, i don't think his racing ability is very good. He's a bit like Grosjean in terms of his spacial awareness.

Sainz has had bad luck too, something many refuse to see... Look closer and you will change your mind.

About contact and spatial awareness there is another Top driver(more than one to be honest) who can not race without banging wheels and is unable to finish first laps unscathed too often. Too many guys out there looking for trouble and Sainz is not one of them.

As I said F1 is about Hype and reputation.
Put Sainz in a Top car and we will have a laugh.

As my post implies, if he is in a car with more challengers, i think his poor wheel to wheel racing will show. He's made to many mistakes in the past to make me think he's going to get good at this. And yes, i agree that Leclerc, Verstappen and a few other top drivers do some poor moves sometimes, but I personally think they have shown more speed than Sainz will. Sainz hasn't really looked that quick to me.

I am indeed wrong about the amount of bad luck Sainz has also had, but still, with their jumber of retirements between them, it makes basically half their races not really easy to judge.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Pullrod wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Pullrod wrote:As usual F1 fans forumers generally tend to converge to a consensus even tough it is a cr*p one such as in Sainz's case.

Sainz's Renault was hugely misleading as he was not happy about his situation(he said that himself) and failed to score BIG (also because of lack of reliability or misunderstanding of the car) when the car was competitive at the beginning of the year like Hulkenberg.

I followed all the FP sessions when Sainz and Verstappen were both in ToroRosso and there was nothing between them.

Carlos is no Hulkenberg and will take his first podium at the very first occasion.

He is the best starter in today's grid, consistent in the race, and very good in the rain. People will be shocked the day he will put his hands on a Top car. Mark my words.

I was even more surprised to learn that McLaren were the first to be impressed by Sainz's speed and concistency(did you forget the beating he gave to Kvyat??).
It seems that F1 teams are as bad as the average F1 fan who bases his impression on what is shown by the TV director and on what the most vocal forum members or Crofty or Brundle say. The only guy(not really, because I know of another WDC ) in the entire paddock who rated Sainz at the Top is Franz Tost.

And the more I see of Ricciardo vs Hulkenberg the more I am convinced he will kick some serious a*s when given the right tools. RIC is always there about with HUL in the race, unlike SAI who when he was fast he was really fast and was leaving HUL in his wake.

I said years ago(the only one foolish enough) that he will put a much better fight against Verstappen than Ricciardo but for some reason in F1 reputation or hype are more important than actual talent and results.

Norris is doing very well, the problem is Sainz who is underrated!!

I don't think we can compare him to Verstappen. It is clear Verstappen has improved significantly since then with beating Ricciardo and all that. Sainz has since had an underperforming Kvyat, then Hulknenberg who to me was overall better than him - certainly to begin with. Then he is now against an unknown - but is getting outqualified which is not great.

This is my opinion, but i think he is one of the weaker drivers on the grid in terms of wheel to wheel racing. In 2017, he had several very clumsy moments. One in Bahrain walloping into the side of Stroll and causing himself and Stroll to retire. One of the most dangerous moves of the season in Canada. He forced Grosjean onto the grass, then Grosjean came back on track and is seemed like Sainz still thought he was still there and suddenly turned back into him, spinning himself out of control and knocking himself and Massa out of the race and nearly taking Grosjean with him. He also caused at least 5 other drivers to take avoiding action to avoid all the madness. That should have got a bigger penalty than it was. If Massa was in a slightly different position, it could have been comparable to Grosjean's Spa 2012 move. Downright dangerous. Even much later in the season for his last race for Toro Rosso at Japan, he simply took himself out by running wide. The amount of rookie mistakes he made this season was very bad indeed. To me even the start of 2018 looked poor but then he started to look better after this.

This year, he certainly looks incredibly solid and mistake free pretty much every race, but he's getting outqualified and while i think he has better race pace than Noris, Noris is having such bad luck in races that half the time they are not comparable. And I think the McLaren is so good that Sainz just isn't really getting challenged by anyone so he's being solid but not having a hard time. Sorry to say, but as i mentioned earlier, i don't think his racing ability is very good. He's a bit like Grosjean in terms of his spacial awareness.

Sainz has had bad luck too, something many refuse to see... Look closer and you will change your mind.

About contact and spatial awareness there is another Top driver(more than one to be honest) who can not race without banging wheels and is unable to finish first laps unscathed too often. Too many guys out there looking for trouble and Sainz is not one of them.

As I said F1 is about Hype and reputation.
Put Sainz in a Top car and we will have a laugh.

As my post implies, if he is in a car with more challengers, i think his racing poor wheel to wheel racing will show. He's made to many mistakes in the past to make me think he's goign to get good at this.

Just like Verstappen, Vettel and Leclerc.

Pullrod wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Pullrod wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Pullrod wrote:As usual F1 fans forumers generally tend to converge to a consensus even tough it is a cr*p one such as in Sainz's case.

Sainz's Renault was hugely misleading as he was not happy about his situation(he said that himself) and failed to score BIG (also because of lack of reliability or misunderstanding of the car) when the car was competitive at the beginning of the year like Hulkenberg.

I followed all the FP sessions when Sainz and Verstappen were both in ToroRosso and there was nothing between them.

Carlos is no Hulkenberg and will take his first podium at the very first occasion.

He is the best starter in today's grid, consistent in the race, and very good in the rain. People will be shocked the day he will put his hands on a Top car. Mark my words.

I was even more surprised to learn that McLaren were the first to be impressed by Sainz's speed and concistency(did you forget the beating he gave to Kvyat??).
It seems that F1 teams are as bad as the average F1 fan who bases his impression on what is shown by the TV director and on what the most vocal forum members or Crofty or Brundle say. The only guy(not really, because I know of another WDC ) in the entire paddock who rated Sainz at the Top is Franz Tost.

And the more I see of Ricciardo vs Hulkenberg the more I am convinced he will kick some serious a*s when given the right tools. RIC is always there about with HUL in the race, unlike SAI who when he was fast he was really fast and was leaving HUL in his wake.

I said years ago(the only one foolish enough) that he will put a much better fight against Verstappen than Ricciardo but for some reason in F1 reputation or hype are more important than actual talent and results.

Norris is doing very well, the problem is Sainz who is underrated!!

I don't think we can compare him to Verstappen. It is clear Verstappen has improved significantly since then with beating Ricciardo and all that. Sainz has since had an underperforming Kvyat, then Hulknenberg who to me was overall better than him - certainly to begin with. Then he is now against an unknown - but is getting outqualified which is not great.

This is my opinion, but i think he is one of the weaker drivers on the grid in terms of wheel to wheel racing. In 2017, he had several very clumsy moments. One in Bahrain walloping into the side of Stroll and causing himself and Stroll to retire. One of the most dangerous moves of the season in Canada. He forced Grosjean onto the grass, then Grosjean came back on track and is seemed like Sainz still thought he was still there and suddenly turned back into him, spinning himself out of control and knocking himself and Massa out of the race and nearly taking Grosjean with him. He also caused at least 5 other drivers to take avoiding action to avoid all the madness. That should have got a bigger penalty than it was. If Massa was in a slightly different position, it could have been comparable to Grosjean's Spa 2012 move. Downright dangerous. Even much later in the season for his last race for Toro Rosso at Japan, he simply took himself out by running wide. The amount of rookie mistakes he made this season was very bad indeed. To me even the start of 2018 looked poor but then he started to look better after this.

This year, he certainly looks incredibly solid and mistake free pretty much every race, but he's getting outqualified and while i think he has better race pace than Noris, Noris is having such bad luck in races that half the time they are not comparable. And I think the McLaren is so good that Sainz just isn't really getting challenged by anyone so he's being solid but not having a hard time. Sorry to say, but as i mentioned earlier, i don't think his racing ability is very good. He's a bit like Grosjean in terms of his spacial awareness.

Sainz has had bad luck too, something many refuse to see... Look closer and you will change your mind.

About contact and spatial awareness there is another Top driver(more than one to be honest) who can not race without banging wheels and is unable to finish first laps unscathed too often. Too many guys out there looking for trouble and Sainz is not one of them.

As I said F1 is about Hype and reputation.
Put Sainz in a Top car and we will have a laugh.

As my post implies, if he is in a car with more challengers, i think his racing poor wheel to wheel racing will show. He's made to many mistakes in the past to make me think he's goign to get good at this.

Just like Verstappen, Vettel and Leclerc.

haha yea i was just editing my post and i have added some of those drivers