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T-bone accidents in racing?

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:48 pm
by pendulumeffect
How often do they occur? Can the sidepods and survival cell survive a T-bone crash at certain speeds? Are racing cars tested for T-bone collision? Any notable instances in historic races where the driver has survived?

Re: T-bone accidents in racing?

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:56 pm
by Charles LeBrad
Alex Zanardi survived one in 2001 on an oval race. I believe from memory he got sideways exiting the pits on cold tires and Alex Tagliani hit him. Lost his legs in it though.

Re: T-bone accidents in racing?

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:24 pm
by F1 MERCENARY
pendulumeffect wrote:How often do they occur? Can the sidepods and survival cell survive a T-bone crash at certain speeds? Are racing cars tested for T-bone collision? Any notable instances in historic races where the driver has survived?
The survival cell or monocoque is designed to withstand great impacts from all sides. The issue with open-wheel cars is that the noses are sharp by comparison and made of the same material so when a nose hits any part of another car bluntly, it rips right through it like a hot knife through butter.
The ONLY solution I find would help is something I've had in my head but after this incident I think I am going to reach out to the FIA to see if it's something they would consider.
If it works it would potentially prevent deaths like Hubert's accident from happening and make me rich, all in one fell swoop.

Re: T-bone accidents in racing?

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:44 pm
by Charles LeBrad
You’re idea is to build the front end out of rubber isn’t it? That’s my money making idea. That or surround the car in one big Zorb ball

Re: T-bone accidents in racing?

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:57 am
by Mort Canard
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
pendulumeffect wrote:How often do they occur? Can the sidepods and survival cell survive a T-bone crash at certain speeds? Are racing cars tested for T-bone collision? Any notable instances in historic races where the driver has survived?
The survival cell or monocoque is designed to withstand great impacts from all sides. The issue with open-wheel cars is that the noses are sharp by comparison and made of the same material so when a nose hits any part of another car bluntly, it rips right through it like a hot knife through butter.
The ONLY solution I find would help is something I've had in my head but after this incident I think I am going to reach out to the FIA to see if it's something they would consider.
If it works it would potentially prevent deaths like Hubert's accident from happening and make me rich, all in one fell swoop.
If you make the side of the tub so strong that the nose of the other car won't penetrate, the other driver will likely have his feet crushed when his nose collapses. There also has to be some crumple zones built into both the side pods and the nose of both cars so than energy can be absorbed and not all transferred to the driver in the cockpit. Going to be a fine balancing act.

I have heard estimates of 120-150mph speed differential between Corea and Hubert's cars in the crash. That's a lot for cars to absorb and not transfer too much energy to the driver.

Remember that Dale Earnhardt Sr. died in an accident that was the G-load equivalent of a 42mph straight on impact with a solid wall.

Re: T-bone accidents in racing?

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:39 am
by Badgeronimous
Mort Canard wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
pendulumeffect wrote:How often do they occur? Can the sidepods and survival cell survive a T-bone crash at certain speeds? Are racing cars tested for T-bone collision? Any notable instances in historic races where the driver has survived?
The survival cell or monocoque is designed to withstand great impacts from all sides. The issue with open-wheel cars is that the noses are sharp by comparison and made of the same material so when a nose hits any part of another car bluntly, it rips right through it like a hot knife through butter.
The ONLY solution I find would help is something I've had in my head but after this incident I think I am going to reach out to the FIA to see if it's something they would consider.
If it works it would potentially prevent deaths like Hubert's accident from happening and make me rich, all in one fell swoop.
If you make the side of the tub so strong that the nose of the other car won't penetrate, the other driver will likely have his feet crushed when his nose collapses. There also has to be some crumple zones built into both the side pods and the nose of both cars so than energy can be absorbed and not all transferred to the driver in the cockpit. Going to be a fine balancing act.

I have heard estimates of 120-150mph speed differential between Corea and Hubert's cars in the crash. That's a lot for cars to absorb and not transfer too much energy to the driver.

Remember that Dale Earnhardt Sr. died in an accident that was the G-load equivalent of a 42mph straight on impact with a solid wall.
Earnhardts crash looked fairly minor, a gentle hit of the wall in motor sport terms... but just the right angle, with just enough force and it had tragic consequences. A simple HANS device would have undoubtedly saved him.

Without knowing specifically what killed Hubert, it's hard to speculate what could have saved him. I suspect the details on this will be released in time.

Re: T-bone accidents in racing?

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:57 am
by oz_karter
They are rare but when they happen there is often consequences.

One that strongly comes to memory is that which killed Mark Porter during the Bathurst 1000 weekend in 2006. He spun and was stopped sideways across the track at the top of the hill (which is blind and very fast).

Another driver could not avoid and impacted the driver's side of Porter's car. Very unfortunate.

The Supercars series have made changes since - moving the drivers more towards the centre of the car, more side protection and introducing warning lights for yellow flags etc. to the dash of the cars (although I'm unsure how functional that is today).

From memory it has been over 10 years since a major crash in the series has had such dire consequences.

Re: T-bone accidents in racing?

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:31 pm
by F1 MERCENARY
Charles LeBrad wrote:You’re idea is to build the front end out of rubber isn’t it? That’s my money making idea. That or surround the car in one big Zorb ball
I have a mechanical brain so no. LOL

Certainly NOT rubber though. that would never work and the rubber up front would have to be extremely rigid in order for it to hold the wing steady without drooping,
so it'll still be hard enough to rip through the car and pierce the monocoque just the same.

Mine would be high tech and would totally change how Monocoques are built across ALL 4-wheel series globally.

Re: T-bone accidents in racing?

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:44 pm
by Mort Canard
Badgeronimous wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
pendulumeffect wrote:How often do they occur? Can the sidepods and survival cell survive a T-bone crash at certain speeds? Are racing cars tested for T-bone collision? Any notable instances in historic races where the driver has survived?
The survival cell or monocoque is designed to withstand great impacts from all sides. The issue with open-wheel cars is that the noses are sharp by comparison and made of the same material so when a nose hits any part of another car bluntly, it rips right through it like a hot knife through butter.
The ONLY solution I find would help is something I've had in my head but after this incident I think I am going to reach out to the FIA to see if it's something they would consider.
If it works it would potentially prevent deaths like Hubert's accident from happening and make me rich, all in one fell swoop.
If you make the side of the tub so strong that the nose of the other car won't penetrate, the other driver will likely have his feet crushed when his nose collapses. There also has to be some crumple zones built into both the side pods and the nose of both cars so than energy can be absorbed and not all transferred to the driver in the cockpit. Going to be a fine balancing act.

I have heard estimates of 120-150mph speed differential between Corea and Hubert's cars in the crash. That's a lot for cars to absorb and not transfer too much energy to the driver.

Remember that Dale Earnhardt Sr. died in an accident that was the G-load equivalent of a 42mph straight on impact with a solid wall.
Earnhardts crash looked fairly minor, a gentle hit of the wall in motor sport terms... but just the right angle, with just enough force and it had tragic consequences. A simple HANS device would have undoubtedly saved him.

Without knowing specifically what killed Hubert, it's hard to speculate what could have saved him. I suspect the details on this will be released in time.
I would say a chest strap and a hans device would have saved Earnhardt, but that's a minor quibble.

Experts tell us that you can stop a driver from 80 miles an hour in four feet with no major injuries. this is done with crumple zones in the cars and energy absorbing barriers.

I don't believe that you can attenuate a 120-150 speed differential between two open wheel cars and have both drivers survive. There are just way too many G forces that ultimately have to be absorbed by one driver or the other.

Re: T-bone accidents in racing?

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:30 pm
by Banana Man
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE0qnbrFKuE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUUIoGMjRPc

I don't know how different the relative speeds were compared to Hubert's accident but Sato was briefly trapped in the wreckage as the car was deformed by the impact.

Re: T-bone accidents in racing?

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:03 pm
by Lt. Drebin
Notable instance: Road Atlanta 1995, IMSA series, former F1 driver Fabrizio Barbazza got T-boned by Jeremy Dale. No HANS devices, but miraculously both drivers survived. View with discretion, tough, some graphic scenes there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIdGGjMhL4M

Re: T-bone accidents in racing?

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:25 pm
by Lt. Drebin
Another one: Jacques Villeneuve hitting Hiro Matsushita, 1994, Cart series, Phoenix oval. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssVXtmjl-Xk

Re: T-bone accidents in racing?

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:50 pm
by F1 MERCENARY
Banana Man wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE0qnbrFKuE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUUIoGMjRPc

I don't know how different the relative speeds were compared to Hubert's accident but Sato was briefly trapped in the wreckage as the car was deformed by the impact.
Yeah, Hiro was lucky that Villenueve hit him just behind the safety cell because had it been another few inches to the left, he would have likely not survived.

But the argument of a low nose being safer is evident in that accident. Villenueve was lucky he didn't end up breaking and possibly losing his legs that day.