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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:35 pm 
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WHoff78 wrote:
It's all just a big ploy to promote reverse grid races.... Very poor for fans at the circuit, at least they have a Ferrari on pole but not good for those who have flown from further afield!


A ploy from whom? Are you saying the top teams all want to start races at the back?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:35 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Going through a run off area intentionally should result in a penalty. They are for cars with mechanical issues or flying off out of control. Any can in there should bring out yellow flags and can effect other cars which is not fair.

Yep slam dunk penalty for the Hulk.


Leclerc did the same thing earlier on as well so should be one for him too. And Bottas of course for ignoring yellow flags.

Bottas apparently slowed down, he said it cost him pole.


Surely you agree by nothing like enough? Unless he was on for pole by about 3 seconds.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:36 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Surely Bottas can’t keep that time, he went 0.059 off pole driving through a yellow flag zone.

From what he said, he backed off just before the finish line. I think that is the reason he had his time back on the board. I actually think he could have got pole if he was just a tiny bit further up.


That is nowhere near enough, unless he was on for a very easy pole by at very least 0.5 second or something. Let’s see what his S3 is.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:36 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If you watch the Ferrari's and Mercs were trying to get past but the track was blocked.


For a couple of seconds. What about the 30 seconds or so leading up to that?

You mean when they were sat in the pits?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:37 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Surely Bottas can’t keep that time, he went 0.059 off pole driving through a yellow flag zone.

From what he said, he backed off just before the finish line. I think that is the reason he had his time back on the board. I actually think he could have got pole if he was just a tiny bit further up.


That is nowhere near enough, unless he was on for a very easy pole by at very least 0.5 second or something. Let’s see what his S3 is.


Yes backing off for the finish line doesn't make up for not backing up through the yellow flag zone.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:37 pm 
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It will be another joke if it's only a reprimand for the drivers responsible.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:38 pm 
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All cars have to be on track 3 minutes before the end of quali and an enforced minimum lap time / car speed, are simple rules to sort it

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:38 pm 
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This happened in F3 as well? What was the punishment dished out?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:38 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
This happened in F3 as well? What was the punishment dished out?


2 thirds of the field got grid penalties.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:38 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Surely Bottas can’t keep that time, he went 0.059 off pole driving through a yellow flag zone.

From what he said, he backed off just before the finish line. I think that is the reason he had his time back on the board. I actually think he could have got pole if he was just a tiny bit further up.


Well that's no good is it....

Well you are not explaining much. What is no good?


Backing off just before the finish line. That would be AFTER the actual incident. The reason for having to back off. If he went past Kimi full bore and ignored the flags he should get a penalty time deleted or not.

He lifted off.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:40 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
All cars have to be on track 3 minutes before the end of quali and an enforced minimum lap time / car speed, are simple rules to sort it


I don't think yet more regulation is the answer. A stern talking to and a few penalties for idiocy is what's needed. We don't need to legislate out all variables.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:40 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Surely Bottas can’t keep that time, he went 0.059 off pole driving through a yellow flag zone.

From what he said, he backed off just before the finish line. I think that is the reason he had his time back on the board. I actually think he could have got pole if he was just a tiny bit further up.


Well that's no good is it....

Well you are not explaining much. What is no good?


Backing off just before the finish line. That would be AFTER the actual incident. The reason for having to back off. If he went past Kimi full bore and ignored the flags he should get a penalty time deleted or not.

But there was a delay between the accident and bottas crossing the line without the flags. They can't react instantly... Bottas's time initially wasn't counted. His time appeared soon after. was it not counted because they thought he didnt slow enough. Well no as it was put back up several minutes later. So i can't see him being investigated for it given he actually stated that he slowed down and his time did in the end count.


Last edited by TheGiantHogweed on Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:40 pm 
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Just watched it again, the 2 Ferrari's managed to get in front and what did they do, they immediately slowed down and Sainz then managed to get past them.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:41 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
From what he said, he backed off just before the finish line. I think that is the reason he had his time back on the board. I actually think he could have got pole if he was just a tiny bit further up.


Well that's no good is it....

Well you are not explaining much. What is no good?


Backing off just before the finish line. That would be AFTER the actual incident. The reason for having to back off. If he went past Kimi full bore and ignored the flags he should get a penalty time deleted or not.

He lifted off.


Surely you don't think by enough?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:42 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
From what he said, he backed off just before the finish line. I think that is the reason he had his time back on the board. I actually think he could have got pole if he was just a tiny bit further up.


Well that's no good is it....

Well you are not explaining much. What is no good?


Backing off just before the finish line. That would be AFTER the actual incident. The reason for having to back off. If he went past Kimi full bore and ignored the flags he should get a penalty time deleted or not.

But there was a delay between the accident and bottas crossing the line without the flags. They can't react instantly... Bottas's time initially wasn't counted. His time appeared soon after. was it not counted because they thought he didnt slow enough. Well no as it was put back up several minutes later. So i can't see him being investigated for it given he actually stated that he slowed down and his time did in the end count.


I think it was the second quickest S3 of the session? That's nowhere near slowing down enough.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:45 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Well that's no good is it....

Well you are not explaining much. What is no good?


Backing off just before the finish line. That would be AFTER the actual incident. The reason for having to back off. If he went past Kimi full bore and ignored the flags he should get a penalty time deleted or not.

He lifted off.


Surely you don't think by enough?

I don't know how it's measured?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:45 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Well that's no good is it....

Well you are not explaining much. What is no good?


Backing off just before the finish line. That would be AFTER the actual incident. The reason for having to back off. If he went past Kimi full bore and ignored the flags he should get a penalty time deleted or not.

But there was a delay between the accident and bottas crossing the line without the flags. They can't react instantly... Bottas's time initially wasn't counted. His time appeared soon after. was it not counted because they thought he didnt slow enough. Well no as it was put back up several minutes later. So i can't see him being investigated for it given he actually stated that he slowed down and his time did in the end count.


I think it was the second quickest S3 of the session? That's nowhere near slowing down enough.

So why was his time not counted, (as if they were accesing it) then several minutes later, it came up. It seemed like they decided that he hadn't done anything wrong, or had backed off enough.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:47 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
All cars have to be on track 3 minutes before the end of quali and an enforced minimum lap time / car speed, are simple rules to sort it


I don't think yet more regulation is the answer. A stern talking to and a few penalties for idiocy is what's needed. We don't need to legislate out all variables.


But we could say that about all manner of rules we have. A stern talking to does not get them to drive any differently. Not completing a second Q3 run is not against any rules so they can't be penalised and it could happen again. The only way to change this is to have penalties applied and these can only be applied with rules.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:47 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
But there was a delay between the accident and bottas crossing the line without the flags. They can't react instantly... Bottas's time initially wasn't counted. His time appeared soon after. was it not counted because they thought he didnt slow enough. Well no as it was put back up several minutes later. So i can't see him being investigated for it given he actually stated that he slowed down and his time did in the end count.


It wasn’t counted because of the red flag, nothing to do with yellows. His time was never on the board once the red went out. He crossed the line and nothing went onto the board. Some investigation must have occurred to allow the time but not a investigation of if he sped through yellows but an investigation of when it was set in relation to the red. The FIA aren’t investigating in real time, the time between him speeding though yellows and crossing the line is about 8 seconds, FIA don’t issue penalties 8 seconds after an incident.

He didn’t lift enough for the yellows. He might get away with it due to the farce of the rest of quali, but I expect Ferrari to enquire about this at very least. I would be amazed if he keeps that time.


Last edited by Johnson on Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:48 pm 
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They need to use VSC, I believe VSC has a minimum speed penalty as well as a maximum speed penalty, just ignore the maximum speed element of it.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:50 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
They need to use VSC, I believe VSC has a minimum speed penalty as well as a maximum speed penalty, just ignore the maximum speed element of it.


Yep. Minimum speed allowed on track coupled with a minimum lap time. So easy to fix.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:51 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
But there was a delay between the accident and bottas crossing the line without the flags. They can't react instantly... Bottas's time initially wasn't counted. His time appeared soon after. was it not counted because they thought he didnt slow enough. Well no as it was put back up several minutes later. So i can't see him being investigated for it given he actually stated that he slowed down and his time did in the end count.


It wasn’t counted because of the red flag, nothing to do with yellows. His time was never on the board once the red went out. He crossed the line and nothing went onto the board. Some investigation must have occurred to allow the time but not a investigation of if he sped through yellows but an investigation of when it was set in relation to the red.

He didn’t lift enough for the yellows. He might get away with it due to the farce of the rest of quali, but I expect Ferrari to enquire about this at very least. I would be amazed if he keeps that time.

why would they investigate one and not both. How can you know this. Guess we will have to wait and see.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:53 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
All cars have to be on track 3 minutes before the end of quali and an enforced minimum lap time / car speed, are simple rules to sort it


I don't think yet more regulation is the answer. A stern talking to and a few penalties for idiocy is what's needed. We don't need to legislate out all variables.


But we could say that about all manner of rules we have. A stern talking to does not get them to drive any differently. Not completing a second Q3 run is not against any rules so they can't be penalised and it could happen again. The only way to change this is to have penalties applied and these can only be applied with rules.

Indeed you see a problem and then you create rules to stop it happening again.

In that respect maybe they can't penalise the Hulk but then again they did have a minimum time penalty in operation, how would they view what the Hulk did, deliberately driving off the track and then almost coming to a dead stop when he came back onto the track?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:54 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Surely Bottas can’t keep that time, he went 0.059 off pole driving through a yellow flag zone.


Dunno, Rosberg took a pole while driving through double waved yellows so who knows.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:55 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
But there was a delay between the accident and bottas crossing the line without the flags. They can't react instantly... Bottas's time initially wasn't counted. His time appeared soon after. was it not counted because they thought he didnt slow enough. Well no as it was put back up several minutes later. So i can't see him being investigated for it given he actually stated that he slowed down and his time did in the end count.


It wasn’t counted because of the red flag, nothing to do with yellows. His time was never on the board once the red went out. He crossed the line and nothing went onto the board. Some investigation must have occurred to allow the time but not a investigation of if he sped through yellows but an investigation of when it was set in relation to the red.

He didn’t lift enough for the yellows. He might get away with it due to the farce of the rest of quali, but I expect Ferrari to enquire about this at very least. I would be amazed if he keeps that time.

why would they investigate one and not both. How can you know this. Guess we will have to wait and see.


Because it obvious.

Think about it. Bottas ran the yellows and set his time 8 seconds later. For somebody to issue a penalty for him running through the yellows they would have to have issued it about 2-3 seconds after he did it. Quickest investigation in F1 history...

They need to look at apex speeds, GPS sector times etc to investigate a speeding through yellow zone. That can’t be done in 4 seconds. Bottas’ time never went onto the board.


Last edited by Johnson on Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:55 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
All cars have to be on track 3 minutes before the end of quali and an enforced minimum lap time / car speed, are simple rules to sort it


I don't think yet more regulation is the answer. A stern talking to and a few penalties for idiocy is what's needed. We don't need to legislate out all variables.


But we could say that about all manner of rules we have. A stern talking to does not get them to drive any differently. Not completing a second Q3 run is not against any rules so they can't be penalised and it could happen again. The only way to change this is to have penalties applied and these can only be applied with rules.

Indeed you see a problem and then you create rules to stop it happening again.

In that respect maybe they can't penalise the Hulk but then again they did have a minimum time penalty in operation, how would they view what the Hulk did, deliberately driving off the track and then almost coming to a dead stop when he came back onto the track?


I think I'd have to know if there is actually a sporting code rule that states you have to remain on the track during quali. I doubt there is because we've all seen drivers on slow laps make off track excursions to simply allow cars on flying laps to pass with ease. They haven't penalised anyone for that as far as I remember. It's a tricky one.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:56 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Surely Bottas can’t keep that time, he went 0.059 off pole driving through a yellow flag zone.


Dunno, Rosberg took a pole while driving through double waved yellows so who knows.

I thought they'd supposed to have changed that though?

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Last edited by pokerman on Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:58 pm 
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Rosberg took pole going through yellows on a drying track.

His GPS data showed he was 0.5 slower during the yellow flag zone even though his sector time in total was purple. Rosberg was lucky but a drying track is completely different.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:00 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
But there was a delay between the accident and bottas crossing the line without the flags. They can't react instantly... Bottas's time initially wasn't counted. His time appeared soon after. was it not counted because they thought he didnt slow enough. Well no as it was put back up several minutes later. So i can't see him being investigated for it given he actually stated that he slowed down and his time did in the end count.


It wasn’t counted because of the red flag, nothing to do with yellows. His time was never on the board once the red went out. He crossed the line and nothing went onto the board. Some investigation must have occurred to allow the time but not a investigation of if he sped through yellows but an investigation of when it was set in relation to the red.

He didn’t lift enough for the yellows. He might get away with it due to the farce of the rest of quali, but I expect Ferrari to enquire about this at very least. I would be amazed if he keeps that time.

why would they investigate one and not both. How can you know this. Guess we will have to wait and see.


Because it obvious.

Think about it. Bottas ran the yellows and set his time 8 seconds later. For somebody to issue a penalty for him running through the yellows they would have to have issued it about 2-3 seconds after he did it. Quickest investigation in F1 history...

They need to look at apex speeds, GPS sector times etc to investigate a speeding through yellow zone. That can’t be done in 4 seconds. Bottas’ time never went onto the board.

If bottas's time appeared on the board during the red flag, did they not have time to note that he did what he did? I'm not even seeing other sites mentioning that it was an odd thing he did. If it was that obvious and wrong, then yes, i don't know how he can't get away with it. but there was time during the very slow warm up lap and nothing was mentioned about Bottas earlier on regarding yellow flags.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:00 pm 
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I don't think any new rules are needed. This is a Monza specific issue and I bet teams will play it safer next time around with when they leave the pits.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:01 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
All cars have to be on track 3 minutes before the end of quali and an enforced minimum lap time / car speed, are simple rules to sort it


I don't think yet more regulation is the answer. A stern talking to and a few penalties for idiocy is what's needed. We don't need to legislate out all variables.


But we could say that about all manner of rules we have. A stern talking to does not get them to drive any differently. Not completing a second Q3 run is not against any rules so they can't be penalised and it could happen again. The only way to change this is to have penalties applied and these can only be applied with rules.

Indeed you see a problem and then you create rules to stop it happening again.

In that respect maybe they can't penalise the Hulk but then again they did have a minimum time penalty in operation, how would they view what the Hulk did, deliberately driving off the track and then almost coming to a dead stop when he came back onto the track?


I think I'd have to know if there is actually a sporting code rule that states you have to remain on the track during quali. I doubt there is because we've all seen drivers on slow laps make off track excursions to simply allow cars on flying laps to pass with ease. They haven't penalised anyone for that as far as I remember. It's a tricky one.

Well for this qualifying they stipulated a minimum time for completely your out lap, I wonder how they might view the Hulk's attempt to comply with this?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:01 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
All cars have to be on track 3 minutes before the end of quali and an enforced minimum lap time / car speed, are simple rules to sort it


I don't think yet more regulation is the answer. A stern talking to and a few penalties for idiocy is what's needed. We don't need to legislate out all variables.


But we could say that about all manner of rules we have. A stern talking to does not get them to drive any differently. Not completing a second Q3 run is not against any rules so they can't be penalised and it could happen again. The only way to change this is to have penalties applied and these can only be applied with rules.

Indeed you see a problem and then you create rules to stop it happening again.

In that respect maybe they can't penalise the Hulk but then again they did have a minimum time penalty in operation, how would they view what the Hulk did, deliberately driving off the track and then almost coming to a dead stop when he came back onto the track?


I think I'd have to know if there is actually a sporting code rule that states you have to remain on the track during quali. I doubt there is because we've all seen drivers on slow laps make off track excursions to simply allow cars on flying laps to pass with ease. They haven't penalised anyone for that as far as I remember. It's a tricky one.


If the others had driven past Hulkenberg they could've pinged him for leaving the track & gaining an advantage but as it stands i'm not sure if what he did was against the rules.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:06 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
But there was a delay between the accident and bottas crossing the line without the flags. They can't react instantly... Bottas's time initially wasn't counted. His time appeared soon after. was it not counted because they thought he didnt slow enough. Well no as it was put back up several minutes later. So i can't see him being investigated for it given he actually stated that he slowed down and his time did in the end count.


It wasn’t counted because of the red flag, nothing to do with yellows. His time was never on the board once the red went out. He crossed the line and nothing went onto the board. Some investigation must have occurred to allow the time but not a investigation of if he sped through yellows but an investigation of when it was set in relation to the red.

He didn’t lift enough for the yellows. He might get away with it due to the farce of the rest of quali, but I expect Ferrari to enquire about this at very least. I would be amazed if he keeps that time.

why would they investigate one and not both. How can you know this. Guess we will have to wait and see.


Because it obvious.

Think about it. Bottas ran the yellows and set his time 8 seconds later. For somebody to issue a penalty for him running through the yellows they would have to have issued it about 2-3 seconds after he did it. Quickest investigation in F1 history...

They need to look at apex speeds, GPS sector times etc to investigate a speeding through yellow zone. That can’t be done in 4 seconds. Bottas’ time never went onto the board.

If bottas's time appeared on the board during the red flag, did they not have time to note that he did what he did? I'm not even seeing other sites mentioning that it was an odd thing he did. If it was that obvious and wrong, then yes, i don't know how he can't get away with it. but there was time during the very slow warm up lap and nothing was mentioned about Bottas earlier on regarding yellow flags.


Everybody knows it’s a rule break, it’s a standard penalty / time deletion or at very least an investigation if you post your quickest lap when a yellow flag is on track.

I think especially so since a driver was killed last week as another driver blasted through a yellow zone (although he had very little time to react to that yellow) and involved himself in an accident that already occurred.

On top of this we had Hamilton crashing off into the barriers metres from Leclerc walking through the same gravel trap in Germany and of course Bianchi, although those both in the wet.


Last edited by Johnson on Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:09 pm 
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Hulk is atleast under investigation!

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:12 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Hulk is atleast under investigation!

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Expected... it's not like he had any lock up..


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:15 pm 
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Ja'a wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Hulk is atleast under investigation!

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Expected... it's not like he had any lock up..


Yes, Vettel did it correctly. Rosberg Monaco-2014 style. Hülkenberg was more Schumacher Monaco 2006 method.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:17 pm 
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I am betting Lewis will win tomorrow as the Ferraris are going to eat their tyres. Also LeClerc is going to have a difficult time getting to the first corner with both Mercedes behind him, it's going to be an exciting start to the race.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:18 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Ja'a wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Hulk is atleast under investigation!

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Source - Imgur

Expected... it's not like he had any lock up..


Yes, Vettel did it correctly. Rosberg Monaco-2014 style. Hülkenberg was more Schumacher Monaco 2006 method.


Well yeah, Vettel deliberately went off in a semi-smart way. Hulkenberg was just blatant.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:34 pm 
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I need to watch it again. I must have been too busy laughing when it looked as though they weren’t going to make the start line. Needless to say I’d have been fuming a minute later had I paid to go there.

Who would have thought that a driver that was once blocked in the pits at the end of quali, and a driver who was recently left in the garage by his team, would leave it so late?

I honestly didn’t think we’d see something as ludicrous as Ferrari forgetting to refuel a car again, but we may have just found it.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:37 pm 
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Why would you bring in a rule to prevent something like this? It only happened because the teams were being idiots and then the McLaren and Renault were causing a frikkin road block

Correction the Ferraris actually got passed Sainz and then decided to try and be clever and it back fired


Last edited by FormulaFun on Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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