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It's lap 1, turn 1 at Spa. Year on year it proves that sometimes you need 3 sets of eyes to avoid collisions.

Ultimately Max made a bad start, got swamped a bit, braked late and put his cars nose into a gap that was always likely to vanish. It was a big risk, and putting a lot of faith in Kimi not taking the apex and/or not being squeezed himself.

However it is La Source, on lap 1 - probably the single biggest sensorary maxxed out point in the F1 season. So much going on in a few moments, its impossible for any driver to see the full picture.

F1 Racer wrote:

Asphalt_World wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:
Here is an explanation of what Kimi should have done. If a track is 10m wide say, and an F1 car is 2m wide say, then if we assume your car is positioned on corner entry for a right-hander with 5m of track between you and the left edge of the track, and 3m between you and the right edge of the track, (therefore 1.5 x a car width to your inside and 2.5 car width's to your outside). Then it is your job, (if you can't see cars around you easily but you know they are likely to be there), to try and drive around the corner with a trajectory or path that maintains that 5m gap to your left and 3m gap to your right as much as possible at all times through that corner. Instead what Kimi did is he turned in super sharply so that he could take up the apex leaving about 0.5m to his right and 7.5m to his left, hence why Max got pinched off the track which is not fair. Why couldn't Kimi just maintain his trajectory by staying in the middle of the track?

Yeah, cos we can all get our tape measure out whilst braking from 140mph into a hairpin surrounded by multiple cars, all of whom are on unknown trajectories and speeds.

These are approximate distances, there is no need to measure anything. Kimi could have moved over slightly to the right, so long as he left at least a car's width between him and the wall. Unfortunately he left less than a car's width. You are just frustrated that I have presented the solution that would have allowed racing here whilst also avoiding contact, hence your immature response.

I'm frustrated? Wow, OK!

You can call it frustration, but either Kimi needs your advice or it was a bit of a racing incident. Having sat in a modern F1 car, even without a helmet on the view to the sides and rear is almost zero. The fact that Max was not the car initially alongside Kimi makes me think that Kimi felt the inside was clear as he out-braked the other car along the inside. He must have felt it was clear.

Badgeronimous wrote:It's lap 1, turn 1 at Spa. Year on year it proves that sometimes you need 3 sets of eyes to avoid collisions.

Ultimately Max made a bad start, got swamped a bit, braked late and put his cars nose into a gap that was always likely to vanish. It was a big risk, and putting a lot of faith in Kimi not taking the apex and/or not being squeezed himself.

However it is La Source, on lap 1 - probably the single biggest sensorary maxxed out point in the F1 season. So much going on in a few moments, its impossible for any driver to see the full picture.

I think St Devote might give it a run for it's money but yeah, there's a hell of a lot going on in such a short distance.

sandman1347 wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

sandman1347 wrote: What? This is literally the first comment I have posted about this incident and I said that both drivers got it wrong and it should be chalked up as a racing incident. You take that as me always wanting to blame Max? Honestly the things people say in here are amazing.

As far as what "we want to see"; that is totally irrelevant. Max was not alongside Kimi. He was behind him and he was very aggressive on the brakes into that corner at a very narrow angle. The move wasn't on IMO (and that's what it was - an overtaking attempt). For Max to have gotten through there cleanly, Kimi would have had to let him through in a situation where Max shouldn't have been going for it. It's not always up to the other guy to get out of the way.

I certainly think Kimi would have been better off had he left more space there and he will regret taking the normal racing line the way he did into the first corner here at Spa. It's always a traffic jam there at the start. Max does share some of the blame there though for being too optimistic. You seem to think that Max should be able to be super-aggressive while everyone else should tip toe around to make sure he doesn't hit them. That simply doesn't make sense.

What you are saying doesn't make sense though. You are suggesting that Kimi should have left room, in which case this means that Max wouldn't be driving optimistically by attempting a pass on the inside as he would know that Kimi was correctly giving him space. Why is it optimistic if you are assuming that the other driver will not try to crash into you. Didn't Senna say to Jackie Stewart that if you no longer go for a gap then you are no longer a racing driver. No one holds it against Damon Hill in Australia 1994 for going for a gap on the inside, they hold it against Schumacher for steering across into him like Kimi did to Max in Belgium.

I think you need to start your argument again and base it only on complete logic here.

I don't think it was deliberate from Kimi, I think it was careless and poor driving that he did without thinking and it was easily avoidable, hence a penalty should be given to him. Also Max had enough of his car alongside to be regarded as alongside, otherwise there would not have been such a heavy impact. Are you only counting cars perfectly in alignment to be alongside each other now? I don't think that makes sense.

Nope. I said Kimi would have been better off had he left more space (which is obvious due to the fact that the collision ruined his race). Max would also have been better off had he not tried to lunge there from so far back. You are only looking at this from one side apparently, though I cannot understand why that makes sense for you. Max was NOT alongside Raikkonen. He pulled partially alongside under braking due to braking extremely late into the corner. Before braking, Kimi was clearly in front. Max braked so late that he would have always made contact there; if not where they actually did then on exit as he ran wide. The move was not on I'm afraid.

As for your Senna, Schumacher comparisons; not at all a good fit. Michael had just crashed and damaged his car and he was weaving in order to take Damon out. Not even remotely comparable. Let's not be ridiculous here. As for the Senna interview; going for a gap several laps into a race where you are battling with one car is not the same as lunging into the first corner with cars all around you.

Check the replay, Max was alongside him into the braking zone. There is about 70% of his car ahead of the back of Kimi's rear wing and that easily qualifies as 'alongside'. I do not believe that alongside only means 100% overlap between the cars, as those occasions where the cars are perfectly level are going to be pretty rare for obvious reasons. I would say personally anything more than 10% to 20% overlap and then you are deemed as being 'alongside' and therefore allowed space, but regardless by anyone's definition 70% is clearly more than adequate overlap to qualify as being alongside someone.

Asphalt_World wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

Asphalt_World wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:
Here is an explanation of what Kimi should have done. If a track is 10m wide say, and an F1 car is 2m wide say, then if we assume your car is positioned on corner entry for a right-hander with 5m of track between you and the left edge of the track, and 3m between you and the right edge of the track, (therefore 1.5 x a car width to your inside and 2.5 car width's to your outside). Then it is your job, (if you can't see cars around you easily but you know they are likely to be there), to try and drive around the corner with a trajectory or path that maintains that 5m gap to your left and 3m gap to your right as much as possible at all times through that corner. Instead what Kimi did is he turned in super sharply so that he could take up the apex leaving about 0.5m to his right and 7.5m to his left, hence why Max got pinched off the track which is not fair. Why couldn't Kimi just maintain his trajectory by staying in the middle of the track?

Yeah, cos we can all get our tape measure out whilst braking from 140mph into a hairpin surrounded by multiple cars, all of whom are on unknown trajectories and speeds.

These are approximate distances, there is no need to measure anything. Kimi could have moved over slightly to the right, so long as he left at least a car's width between him and the wall. Unfortunately he left less than a car's width. You are just frustrated that I have presented the solution that would have allowed racing here whilst also avoiding contact, hence your immature response.

I'm frustrated? Wow, OK!

You can call it frustration, but either Kimi needs your advice or it was a bit of a racing incident. Having sat in a modern F1 car, even without a helmet on the view to the sides and rear is almost zero. The fact that Max was not the car initially alongside Kimi makes me think that Kimi felt the inside was clear as he out-braked the other car along the inside. He must have felt it was clear.

It's pretty simple, if Max backs out of what he does, (the move up the inside), then he stops the racing in that moment and even risks losing a place to the Force India that is behind him. Why should Max risk losing a place to a car that is behind him, just because the driver in front of him that he wants to race, might stupidly turn into him?

However if Kimi backs out of what he does, and stays in the middle of the track, then he very likely still stays ahead of Max on the run down the hill as he will be able to exit the corner quicker than Max. He will still need to continue racing but no contact happens and it is good for the racing to continue.

So if one driver backs out, he potentially loses an extra position and the racing situation at this corner is halted. If the other driver backs out then he doesn't really lose out and racing at this corner and the following straight is allowed to continue. Why would we want to encourage the driver to back out that halts the racing, (i.e. Max in this case)? That makes zero sense whatsoever. It's clear that the driver required to change their driving action in this incident should be Kimi as then fair racing gets to continue.

Lack of visibility in an F1 car means nothing, Kimi was aware that it was lap 1 with cars potentially being all around him so by default he should maintain a stable trajectory through the corner with no serious lateral movements across the track into areas of space that he cannot see. All drivers managed it at the previous race in Hungary and they should have done the same here. Kimi I believe did the same on lap 1 in Baku 2018, clumsily turning in as though a car on his inside wasn't there, so he has history of this and hasn't learned his lesson.

I'm surprised at the pass Kimi is getting for sweeping across the track to the inside and not considering someone maybe alongside him. If the roles were reversed I'm sure Verstappen would be getting heavily criticised for that oversite.

mikeyg123 wrote:I'm surprised at the pass Kimi is getting for sweeping across the track to the inside and not considering someone maybe alongside him. If the roles were reversed I'm sure Verstappen would be getting heavily criticised for that oversite.

Thank you.

I feel we should all be pro-racing, so why people here are so starkly advocating that the driver behind should not try to race the driver in front just because he may get crashed into is bizarre. Surely the correct actions from either driver should always allow and facilitate the maximum amount of fair racing to occur, and every crash or incident should be evaluated with this as the key criteria or principle in mind when determining who was at fault.

F1 Racer wrote:

Fiki wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

Fiki wrote:

F1 Racer wrote: These are approximate distances, there is no need to measure anything. Kimi could have moved over slightly to the right, so long as he left at least a car's width between him and the wall. Unfortunately he left less than a car's width. You are just frustrated that I have presented the solution that would have allowed racing here whilst also avoiding contact, hence your immature response.

Right... alright let's discuss this then. Would you start by disclosing which rule states that in this case Kimi had to leave a car's width of room? If you can find that rule, we'll continue on from there.

The rule is you cannot crowd another driver off the track, and the talk of a car's width of space has been brought up many times and was the reason for Hamilton not getting a penalty against Danny Ric at Monaco 2018 for example, because he left space.

Back to you.

OK, how do you decide that Kimi was deliberately crowding Max off the track? Because the word deliberate is in the actual rule, and it is important. According to Max himself after the race, Kimi didn't do it on purpose. So it was not deliberate, and the crowding rule is not applicable.

I know the rule about leaving a car's width is mentioned often. Even by drivers who should know what it says and still get it wrong. So, would you explain why you think it applied in this case, please?

It is turn 1 on lap 1 so you have to be aware of other cars around you and take the first turn sub-optimally to avoid contact. This is why the 20th place driver is 15+ seconds off the leader at the end of the first lap, because he took the opening corners sub-optimally to avoid ramming other cars. This cost him tonnes of time so why should he do this? Why can't he just race through turn 1 at 100% racing speed and on the racing line? Because he has a duty of care to not crash into others.

Cars need to brake earlier for turn 1 on lap 1 to avoid shunting the cars in front up the rear, so why aren't they also required to take a sub-optimal trajectory/pathing through the corner to also avoid contact with drivers that could be on their inside or outside? Many other cars took sub-optimal paths through turn 1 and avoided contact, but the line Kimi chose caused contact. This is a slam dunk driving cock-up from Kimi.

It was a deliberate crowd off because Kimi can't say that he had no realistic way of knowing if a car was on his inside, it is turn 1 of lap 1 for Christ's sake, so of course you have to assume that someone could be there. If you turn in on them anyway, then what you did was deliberate.

You don't need to explain how difficult the conditions at the start are, we can all see that every race. Niki Lauda explained long ago that it is largely instinctive, and I think he was right.

What you do need to explain is how you can prove that Kimi deliberately crowded Max off the track, when Max himself disagrees. To use your expression; even if it is a slam dunk driving cock-up from Kimi, it doesn't mean the rule on deliberately crowding off the track applies. And it doesn't.

So, with that out of the way, would you now show us which rule says that Kimi should have left a car's width, and why you believe it applies?

mikeyg123 wrote:I'm surprised at the pass Kimi is getting for sweeping across the track to the inside and not considering someone maybe alongside him. If the roles were reversed I'm sure Verstappen would be getting heavily criticised for that oversite.

You can see the start again on the F1 website, including from above. You will see that Kimi doesn't sweep across the track to the inside.

Fiki wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

Fiki wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:
The rule is you cannot crowd another driver off the track, and the talk of a car's width of space has been brought up many times and was the reason for Hamilton not getting a penalty against Danny Ric at Monaco 2018 for example, because he left space.

Back to you.

OK, how do you decide that Kimi was deliberately crowding Max off the track? Because the word deliberate is in the actual rule, and it is important. According to Max himself after the race, Kimi didn't do it on purpose. So it was not deliberate, and the crowding rule is not applicable.

I know the rule about leaving a car's width is mentioned often. Even by drivers who should know what it says and still get it wrong. So, would you explain why you think it applied in this case, please?

It is turn 1 on lap 1 so you have to be aware of other cars around you and take the first turn sub-optimally to avoid contact. This is why the 20th place driver is 15+ seconds off the leader at the end of the first lap, because he took the opening corners sub-optimally to avoid ramming other cars. This cost him tonnes of time so why should he do this? Why can't he just race through turn 1 at 100% racing speed and on the racing line? Because he has a duty of care to not crash into others.

Cars need to brake earlier for turn 1 on lap 1 to avoid shunting the cars in front up the rear, so why aren't they also required to take a sub-optimal trajectory/pathing through the corner to also avoid contact with drivers that could be on their inside or outside? Many other cars took sub-optimal paths through turn 1 and avoided contact, but the line Kimi chose caused contact. This is a slam dunk driving cock-up from Kimi.

It was a deliberate crowd off because Kimi can't say that he had no realistic way of knowing if a car was on his inside, it is turn 1 of lap 1 for Christ's sake, so of course you have to assume that someone could be there. If you turn in on them anyway, then what you did was deliberate.

You don't need to explain how difficult the conditions at the start are, we can all see that every race. Niki Lauda explained long ago that it is largely instinctive, and I think he was right.

What you do need to explain is how you can prove that Kimi deliberately crowded Max off the track, when Max himself disagrees. To use your expression; even if it is a slam dunk driving cock-up from Kimi, it doesn't mean the rule on deliberately crowding off the track applies. And it doesn't.

So, with that out of the way, would you now show us which rule says that Kimi should have left a car's width, and why you believe it applies?

Conditions aren't really that difficult at the start if you abide by these principles:

(i) Brake in good time for turn 1 so that you don't go into the back of cars in front of you.
(ii) If you arrive at turn 1 on the outside, then take an outside path through the corner
(iii) If you arrive at turn 1 in the middle of the track then take a middle path through the corner
(iv) If you arrive at turn 1 on the inside, then take an inside path through the corner

If you follow these four principles you will be fine and any contact you have will always be someone else's fault as they either move laterally into you or brake too late and shunt you from behind. Now granted following all four of those principles will require you to give up some race time by braking too early and taking sub-optimal pathing through the corner, but that is the natural spreading of the pack concept and only really the first car or two can take turn 1 as they please and brake at the limit etc. Also if there is still a bunch of cars jostling for position into turn 2 or turn 3 at any given track, then still apply the four principles until the pack has all managed to join the racing line and got fully up to racing speed.

What Kimi did in Belgium was that he arrived into turn 1 in the middle of the corner, but then proceded to take an inside path through the corner, oblivious to other cars that may be arriving at turn 1 on the inside and taking an inside path through the corner themselves, (i.e. Max). Kimi got his principles mixed up basically and this is why the crash happened.

This obviously is crowding an inside car off the track, this definition is well understood. It possibly may not have been deliberate by Kimi, it could have just been incompetence, but generally driving errors such as this could also be deliberate, we don't know what Kimi was thinking, I mean he was fully in control of his car so why swerve it across to the inside like that? He moved his car to the inside deliberately, so if another car does get crowded off by this action then he deliberately crowded them off. It was possible that he did this deliberately but what is certain is another driver was taken out of the race by Kimi's incompetence or deliberate move and this should get punished either way.

Fiki wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:I'm surprised at the pass Kimi is getting for sweeping across the track to the inside and not considering someone maybe alongside him. If the roles were reversed I'm sure Verstappen would be getting heavily criticised for that oversite.

You can see the start again on the F1 website, including from above. You will see that Kimi doesn't sweep across the track to the inside.

Yes he does.

At corner entry there is well over a car's width of space to the inside of Kimi. We know this because Max can comfortably fit his car in that gap.

By the corner apex there is barely any space between Kimi's car and the inside edge of the track.

In order to do this his car had to sweep across closer to the track's edge between corner entry and corner apex.

F1 Racer wrote:

Fiki wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

Fiki wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:
The rule is you cannot crowd another driver off the track, and the talk of a car's width of space has been brought up many times and was the reason for Hamilton not getting a penalty against Danny Ric at Monaco 2018 for example, because he left space.

Back to you.

OK, how do you decide that Kimi was deliberately crowding Max off the track? Because the word deliberate is in the actual rule, and it is important. According to Max himself after the race, Kimi didn't do it on purpose. So it was not deliberate, and the crowding rule is not applicable.

I know the rule about leaving a car's width is mentioned often. Even by drivers who should know what it says and still get it wrong. So, would you explain why you think it applied in this case, please?

It is turn 1 on lap 1 so you have to be aware of other cars around you and take the first turn sub-optimally to avoid contact. This is why the 20th place driver is 15+ seconds off the leader at the end of the first lap, because he took the opening corners sub-optimally to avoid ramming other cars. This cost him tonnes of time so why should he do this? Why can't he just race through turn 1 at 100% racing speed and on the racing line? Because he has a duty of care to not crash into others.

Cars need to brake earlier for turn 1 on lap 1 to avoid shunting the cars in front up the rear, so why aren't they also required to take a sub-optimal trajectory/pathing through the corner to also avoid contact with drivers that could be on their inside or outside? Many other cars took sub-optimal paths through turn 1 and avoided contact, but the line Kimi chose caused contact. This is a slam dunk driving cock-up from Kimi.

It was a deliberate crowd off because Kimi can't say that he had no realistic way of knowing if a car was on his inside, it is turn 1 of lap 1 for Christ's sake, so of course you have to assume that someone could be there. If you turn in on them anyway, then what you did was deliberate.

You don't need to explain how difficult the conditions at the start are, we can all see that every race. Niki Lauda explained long ago that it is largely instinctive, and I think he was right.

What you do need to explain is how you can prove that Kimi deliberately crowded Max off the track, when Max himself disagrees. To use your expression; even if it is a slam dunk driving cock-up from Kimi, it doesn't mean the rule on deliberately crowding off the track applies. And it doesn't.

So, with that out of the way, would you now show us which rule says that Kimi should have left a car's width, and why you believe it applies?

Conditions aren't really that difficult at the start if you abide by these principles:

(i) Brake in good time for turn 1 so that you don't go into the back of cars in front of you.
(ii) If you arrive at turn 1 on the outside, then take an outside path through the corner
(iii) If you arrive at turn 1 in the middle of the track then take a middle path through the corner
(iv) If you arrive at turn 1 on the inside, then take an inside path through the corner

If you follow these four principles you will be fine and any contact you have will always be someone else's fault as they either move laterally into you or brake too late and shunt you from behind. Now granted following all four of those principles will require you to give up some race time by braking too early and taking sub-optimal pathing through the corner, but that is the natural spreading of the pack concept and only really the first car or two can take turn 1 as they please and brake at the limit etc. Also if there is still a bunch of cars jostling for position into turn 2 or turn 3 at any given track, then still apply the four principles until the pack has all managed to join the racing line and got fully up to racing speed.

What Kimi did in Belgium was that he arrived into turn 1 in the middle of the corner, but then proceded to take an inside path through the corner, oblivious to other cars that may be arriving at turn 1 on the inside and taking an inside path through the corner themselves, (i.e. Max). Kimi got his principles mixed up basically and this is why the crash happened.

This obviously is crowding an inside car off the track, this definition is well understood. It possibly may not have been deliberate by Kimi, it could have just been incompetence, but generally driving errors such as this could also be deliberate, we don't know what Kimi was thinking, I mean he was fully in control of his car so why swerve it across to the inside like that? He moved his car to the inside deliberately, so if another car does get crowded off by this action then he deliberately crowded them off. It was possible that he did this deliberately but what is certain is another driver was taken out of the race by Kimi's incompetence or deliberate move and this should get punished either way.

So you admit it's possible Kimi didn't deliberately crowd Max off. So that's that really out of the way. Thank you!

Now, how about your other contention, about having to leave a car's width of space? If you quote the exact rule, it will be clear to you straightaway which error of interpretation you make there.

F1 Racer wrote:

Fiki wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

Fiki wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:
The rule is you cannot crowd another driver off the track, and the talk of a car's width of space has been brought up many times and was the reason for Hamilton not getting a penalty against Danny Ric at Monaco 2018 for example, because he left space.

Back to you.

OK, how do you decide that Kimi was deliberately crowding Max off the track? Because the word deliberate is in the actual rule, and it is important. According to Max himself after the race, Kimi didn't do it on purpose. So it was not deliberate, and the crowding rule is not applicable.

I know the rule about leaving a car's width is mentioned often. Even by drivers who should know what it says and still get it wrong. So, would you explain why you think it applied in this case, please?

It is turn 1 on lap 1 so you have to be aware of other cars around you and take the first turn sub-optimally to avoid contact. This is why the 20th place driver is 15+ seconds off the leader at the end of the first lap, because he took the opening corners sub-optimally to avoid ramming other cars. This cost him tonnes of time so why should he do this? Why can't he just race through turn 1 at 100% racing speed and on the racing line? Because he has a duty of care to not crash into others.

Cars need to brake earlier for turn 1 on lap 1 to avoid shunting the cars in front up the rear, so why aren't they also required to take a sub-optimal trajectory/pathing through the corner to also avoid contact with drivers that could be on their inside or outside? Many other cars took sub-optimal paths through turn 1 and avoided contact, but the line Kimi chose caused contact. This is a slam dunk driving cock-up from Kimi.

It was a deliberate crowd off because Kimi can't say that he had no realistic way of knowing if a car was on his inside, it is turn 1 of lap 1 for Christ's sake, so of course you have to assume that someone could be there. If you turn in on them anyway, then what you did was deliberate.

You don't need to explain how difficult the conditions at the start are, we can all see that every race. Niki Lauda explained long ago that it is largely instinctive, and I think he was right.

What you do need to explain is how you can prove that Kimi deliberately crowded Max off the track, when Max himself disagrees. To use your expression; even if it is a slam dunk driving cock-up from Kimi, it doesn't mean the rule on deliberately crowding off the track applies. And it doesn't.

So, with that out of the way, would you now show us which rule says that Kimi should have left a car's width, and why you believe it applies?

Conditions aren't really that difficult at the start if you abide by these principles:

(i) Brake in good time for turn 1 so that you don't go into the back of cars in front of you.
(ii) If you arrive at turn 1 on the outside, then take an outside path through the corner
(iii) If you arrive at turn 1 in the middle of the track then take a middle path through the corner
(iv) If you arrive at turn 1 on the inside, then take an inside path through the corner

If you follow these four principles you will be fine and any contact you have will always be someone else's fault as they either move laterally into you or brake too late and shunt you from behind. Now granted following all four of those principles will require you to give up some race time by braking too early and taking sub-optimal pathing through the corner, but that is the natural spreading of the pack concept and only really the first car or two can take turn 1 as they please and brake at the limit etc. Also if there is still a bunch of cars jostling for position into turn 2 or turn 3 at any given track, then still apply the four principles until the pack has all managed to join the racing line and got fully up to racing speed.

What Kimi did in Belgium was that he arrived into turn 1 in the middle of the corner, but then proceded to take an inside path through the corner, oblivious to other cars that may be arriving at turn 1 on the inside and taking an inside path through the corner themselves, (i.e. Max). Kimi got his principles mixed up basically and this is why the crash happened.

This obviously is crowding an inside car off the track, this definition is well understood. It possibly may not have been deliberate by Kimi, it could have just been incompetence, but generally driving errors such as this could also be deliberate, we don't know what Kimi was thinking, I mean he was fully in control of his car so why swerve it across to the inside like that? He moved his car to the inside deliberately, so if another car does get crowded off by this action then he deliberately crowded them off. It was possible that he did this deliberately but what is certain is another driver was taken out of the race by Kimi's incompetence or deliberate move and this should get punished either way.

Started many races have you?

Try starting from the middle of the grid at Spa, even in the F1 game, and see how often using your method that you escape unscathed.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or just clueless.

Fiki wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

Fiki wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:
It is turn 1 on lap 1 so you have to be aware of other cars around you and take the first turn sub-optimally to avoid contact. This is why the 20th place driver is 15+ seconds off the leader at the end of the first lap, because he took the opening corners sub-optimally to avoid ramming other cars. This cost him tonnes of time so why should he do this? Why can't he just race through turn 1 at 100% racing speed and on the racing line? Because he has a duty of care to not crash into others.

Cars need to brake earlier for turn 1 on lap 1 to avoid shunting the cars in front up the rear, so why aren't they also required to take a sub-optimal trajectory/pathing through the corner to also avoid contact with drivers that could be on their inside or outside? Many other cars took sub-optimal paths through turn 1 and avoided contact, but the line Kimi chose caused contact. This is a slam dunk driving cock-up from Kimi.

It was a deliberate crowd off because Kimi can't say that he had no realistic way of knowing if a car was on his inside, it is turn 1 of lap 1 for Christ's sake, so of course you have to assume that someone could be there. If you turn in on them anyway, then what you did was deliberate.

You don't need to explain how difficult the conditions at the start are, we can all see that every race. Niki Lauda explained long ago that it is largely instinctive, and I think he was right.

What you do need to explain is how you can prove that Kimi deliberately crowded Max off the track, when Max himself disagrees. To use your expression; even if it is a slam dunk driving cock-up from Kimi, it doesn't mean the rule on deliberately crowding off the track applies. And it doesn't.

So, with that out of the way, would you now show us which rule says that Kimi should have left a car's width, and why you believe it applies?

Conditions aren't really that difficult at the start if you abide by these principles:

(i) Brake in good time for turn 1 so that you don't go into the back of cars in front of you.
(ii) If you arrive at turn 1 on the outside, then take an outside path through the corner
(iii) If you arrive at turn 1 in the middle of the track then take a middle path through the corner
(iv) If you arrive at turn 1 on the inside, then take an inside path through the corner

If you follow these four principles you will be fine and any contact you have will always be someone else's fault as they either move laterally into you or brake too late and shunt you from behind. Now granted following all four of those principles will require you to give up some race time by braking too early and taking sub-optimal pathing through the corner, but that is the natural spreading of the pack concept and only really the first car or two can take turn 1 as they please and brake at the limit etc. Also if there is still a bunch of cars jostling for position into turn 2 or turn 3 at any given track, then still apply the four principles until the pack has all managed to join the racing line and got fully up to racing speed.

What Kimi did in Belgium was that he arrived into turn 1 in the middle of the corner, but then proceded to take an inside path through the corner, oblivious to other cars that may be arriving at turn 1 on the inside and taking an inside path through the corner themselves, (i.e. Max). Kimi got his principles mixed up basically and this is why the crash happened.

This obviously is crowding an inside car off the track, this definition is well understood. It possibly may not have been deliberate by Kimi, it could have just been incompetence, but generally driving errors such as this could also be deliberate, we don't know what Kimi was thinking, I mean he was fully in control of his car so why swerve it across to the inside like that? He moved his car to the inside deliberately, so if another car does get crowded off by this action then he deliberately crowded them off. It was possible that he did this deliberately but what is certain is another driver was taken out of the race by Kimi's incompetence or deliberate move and this should get punished either way.

So you admit it's possible Kimi didn't deliberately crowd Max off. So that's that really out of the way. Thank you!

Now, how about your other contention, about having to leave a car's width of space? If you quote the exact rule, it will be clear to you straightaway which error of interpretation you make there.

No, I am saying that it was likely deliberate. Kimi moved his car across deliberately. If he takes another car out in the process then Kimi is taking them out deliberately. In the slight chance it was just incompetence, punishments can still be handed out for incompetent driving as we know. So I am in no way letting Kimi off the hook, I am damning him even further.

The car's width of space we know is a 'thing', just look at Hamilton vs Ricciardo at Monaco, but even regardless of this, you cannot deliberately crowd another driver off the track and Kimi did this.

You are trying to argue technicalities to cover for Kimi, but this is a bad stance to take when what Kimi did was just plain bad driving no matter how you look at it.

Badgeronimous wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

Fiki wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:
It is turn 1 on lap 1 so you have to be aware of other cars around you and take the first turn sub-optimally to avoid contact. This is why the 20th place driver is 15+ seconds off the leader at the end of the first lap, because he took the opening corners sub-optimally to avoid ramming other cars. This cost him tonnes of time so why should he do this? Why can't he just race through turn 1 at 100% racing speed and on the racing line? Because he has a duty of care to not crash into others.

Cars need to brake earlier for turn 1 on lap 1 to avoid shunting the cars in front up the rear, so why aren't they also required to take a sub-optimal trajectory/pathing through the corner to also avoid contact with drivers that could be on their inside or outside? Many other cars took sub-optimal paths through turn 1 and avoided contact, but the line Kimi chose caused contact. This is a slam dunk driving cock-up from Kimi.

It was a deliberate crowd off because Kimi can't say that he had no realistic way of knowing if a car was on his inside, it is turn 1 of lap 1 for Christ's sake, so of course you have to assume that someone could be there. If you turn in on them anyway, then what you did was deliberate.

You don't need to explain how difficult the conditions at the start are, we can all see that every race. Niki Lauda explained long ago that it is largely instinctive, and I think he was right.

What you do need to explain is how you can prove that Kimi deliberately crowded Max off the track, when Max himself disagrees. To use your expression; even if it is a slam dunk driving cock-up from Kimi, it doesn't mean the rule on deliberately crowding off the track applies. And it doesn't.

So, with that out of the way, would you now show us which rule says that Kimi should have left a car's width, and why you believe it applies?

Conditions aren't really that difficult at the start if you abide by these principles:

(i) Brake in good time for turn 1 so that you don't go into the back of cars in front of you.
(ii) If you arrive at turn 1 on the outside, then take an outside path through the corner
(iii) If you arrive at turn 1 in the middle of the track then take a middle path through the corner
(iv) If you arrive at turn 1 on the inside, then take an inside path through the corner

If you follow these four principles you will be fine and any contact you have will always be someone else's fault as they either move laterally into you or brake too late and shunt you from behind. Now granted following all four of those principles will require you to give up some race time by braking too early and taking sub-optimal pathing through the corner, but that is the natural spreading of the pack concept and only really the first car or two can take turn 1 as they please and brake at the limit etc. Also if there is still a bunch of cars jostling for position into turn 2 or turn 3 at any given track, then still apply the four principles until the pack has all managed to join the racing line and got fully up to racing speed.

What Kimi did in Belgium was that he arrived into turn 1 in the middle of the corner, but then proceded to take an inside path through the corner, oblivious to other cars that may be arriving at turn 1 on the inside and taking an inside path through the corner themselves, (i.e. Max). Kimi got his principles mixed up basically and this is why the crash happened.

This obviously is crowding an inside car off the track, this definition is well understood. It possibly may not have been deliberate by Kimi, it could have just been incompetence, but generally driving errors such as this could also be deliberate, we don't know what Kimi was thinking, I mean he was fully in control of his car so why swerve it across to the inside like that? He moved his car to the inside deliberately, so if another car does get crowded off by this action then he deliberately crowded them off. It was possible that he did this deliberately but what is certain is another driver was taken out of the race by Kimi's incompetence or deliberate move and this should get punished either way.

Started many races have you?

Try starting from the middle of the grid at Spa, even in the F1 game, and see how often using your method that you escape unscathed.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or just clueless.

This method will work 100% of the time if you and all other drivers follow it. Case in point, Hungary 2019. All drivers will remain unscathed.

If just you follow it but other drivers don't, then you may get shunted as I said above, but it will always be the other drivers' fault if so.

F1 Racer wrote:

Fiki wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

Fiki wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:
It is turn 1 on lap 1 so you have to be aware of other cars around you and take the first turn sub-optimally to avoid contact. This is why the 20th place driver is 15+ seconds off the leader at the end of the first lap, because he took the opening corners sub-optimally to avoid ramming other cars. This cost him tonnes of time so why should he do this? Why can't he just race through turn 1 at 100% racing speed and on the racing line? Because he has a duty of care to not crash into others.

Cars need to brake earlier for turn 1 on lap 1 to avoid shunting the cars in front up the rear, so why aren't they also required to take a sub-optimal trajectory/pathing through the corner to also avoid contact with drivers that could be on their inside or outside? Many other cars took sub-optimal paths through turn 1 and avoided contact, but the line Kimi chose caused contact. This is a slam dunk driving cock-up from Kimi.

It was a deliberate crowd off because Kimi can't say that he had no realistic way of knowing if a car was on his inside, it is turn 1 of lap 1 for Christ's sake, so of course you have to assume that someone could be there. If you turn in on them anyway, then what you did was deliberate.

You don't need to explain how difficult the conditions at the start are, we can all see that every race. Niki Lauda explained long ago that it is largely instinctive, and I think he was right.

What you do need to explain is how you can prove that Kimi deliberately crowded Max off the track, when Max himself disagrees. To use your expression; even if it is a slam dunk driving cock-up from Kimi, it doesn't mean the rule on deliberately crowding off the track applies. And it doesn't.

So, with that out of the way, would you now show us which rule says that Kimi should have left a car's width, and why you believe it applies?

Conditions aren't really that difficult at the start if you abide by these principles:

(i) Brake in good time for turn 1 so that you don't go into the back of cars in front of you.
(ii) If you arrive at turn 1 on the outside, then take an outside path through the corner
(iii) If you arrive at turn 1 in the middle of the track then take a middle path through the corner
(iv) If you arrive at turn 1 on the inside, then take an inside path through the corner

If you follow these four principles you will be fine and any contact you have will always be someone else's fault as they either move laterally into you or brake too late and shunt you from behind. Now granted following all four of those principles will require you to give up some race time by braking too early and taking sub-optimal pathing through the corner, but that is the natural spreading of the pack concept and only really the first car or two can take turn 1 as they please and brake at the limit etc. Also if there is still a bunch of cars jostling for position into turn 2 or turn 3 at any given track, then still apply the four principles until the pack has all managed to join the racing line and got fully up to racing speed.

What Kimi did in Belgium was that he arrived into turn 1 in the middle of the corner, but then proceded to take an inside path through the corner, oblivious to other cars that may be arriving at turn 1 on the inside and taking an inside path through the corner themselves, (i.e. Max). Kimi got his principles mixed up basically and this is why the crash happened.

This obviously is crowding an inside car off the track, this definition is well understood. It possibly may not have been deliberate by Kimi, it could have just been incompetence, but generally driving errors such as this could also be deliberate, we don't know what Kimi was thinking, I mean he was fully in control of his car so why swerve it across to the inside like that? He moved his car to the inside deliberately, so if another car does get crowded off by this action then he deliberately crowded them off. It was possible that he did this deliberately but what is certain is another driver was taken out of the race by Kimi's incompetence or deliberate move and this should get punished either way.

So you admit it's possible Kimi didn't deliberately crowd Max off. So that's that really out of the way. Thank you!

Now, how about your other contention, about having to leave a car's width of space? If you quote the exact rule, it will be clear to you straightaway which error of interpretation you make there.

No, I am saying that it was likely deliberate. Kimi moved his car across deliberately. If he takes another car out in the process then Kimi is taking them out deliberately. In the slight chance it was just incompetence, punishments can still be handed out for incompetent driving as we know. So I am in no way letting Kimi off the hook, I am damning him even further.

The car's width of space we know is a 'thing', just look at Hamilton vs Ricciardo at Monaco, but even regardless of this, you cannot deliberately crowd another driver off the track and Kimi did this.

You are trying to argue technicalities to cover for Kimi, but this is a bad stance to take when what Kimi did was just plain bad driving no matter how you look at it.

Oh dear... You said that Kimi crowded Max off. The rule states that only deliberate crowding is forbidden. That is not a technicality I'm trying to argue, it is a matter of fact. You would have known this, if you had looked for the rule as I asked you in my first reaction to your claim.

The same goes for the car's width of space, which you may know to be a 'thing', but which you will find is not applicable in this case, because the rule clearly states it isn't. Do please look it up.

Fiki wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

Fiki wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:
Conditions aren't really that difficult at the start if you abide by these principles:

(i) Brake in good time for turn 1 so that you don't go into the back of cars in front of you.
(ii) If you arrive at turn 1 on the outside, then take an outside path through the corner
(iii) If you arrive at turn 1 in the middle of the track then take a middle path through the corner
(iv) If you arrive at turn 1 on the inside, then take an inside path through the corner

If you follow these four principles you will be fine and any contact you have will always be someone else's fault as they either move laterally into you or brake too late and shunt you from behind. Now granted following all four of those principles will require you to give up some race time by braking too early and taking sub-optimal pathing through the corner, but that is the natural spreading of the pack concept and only really the first car or two can take turn 1 as they please and brake at the limit etc. Also if there is still a bunch of cars jostling for position into turn 2 or turn 3 at any given track, then still apply the four principles until the pack has all managed to join the racing line and got fully up to racing speed.

What Kimi did in Belgium was that he arrived into turn 1 in the middle of the corner, but then proceded to take an inside path through the corner, oblivious to other cars that may be arriving at turn 1 on the inside and taking an inside path through the corner themselves, (i.e. Max). Kimi got his principles mixed up basically and this is why the crash happened.

This obviously is crowding an inside car off the track, this definition is well understood. It possibly may not have been deliberate by Kimi, it could have just been incompetence, but generally driving errors such as this could also be deliberate, we don't know what Kimi was thinking, I mean he was fully in control of his car so why swerve it across to the inside like that? He moved his car to the inside deliberately, so if another car does get crowded off by this action then he deliberately crowded them off. It was possible that he did this deliberately but what is certain is another driver was taken out of the race by Kimi's incompetence or deliberate move and this should get punished either way.

So you admit it's possible Kimi didn't deliberately crowd Max off. So that's that really out of the way. Thank you!

Now, how about your other contention, about having to leave a car's width of space? If you quote the exact rule, it will be clear to you straightaway which error of interpretation you make there.

No, I am saying that it was likely deliberate. Kimi moved his car across deliberately. If he takes another car out in the process then Kimi is taking them out deliberately. In the slight chance it was just incompetence, punishments can still be handed out for incompetent driving as we know. So I am in no way letting Kimi off the hook, I am damning him even further.

The car's width of space we know is a 'thing', just look at Hamilton vs Ricciardo at Monaco, but even regardless of this, you cannot deliberately crowd another driver off the track and Kimi did this.

You are trying to argue technicalities to cover for Kimi, but this is a bad stance to take when what Kimi did was just plain bad driving no matter how you look at it.

Oh dear... You said that Kimi crowded Max off. The rule states that only deliberate crowding is forbidden. That is not a technicality I'm trying to argue, it is a matter of fact. You would have known this, if you had looked for the rule as I asked you in my first reaction to your claim.

The same goes for the car's width of space, which you may know to be a 'thing', but which you will find is not applicable in this case, because the rule clearly states it isn't. Do please look it up.

If it was deliberate then Kimi broke the deliberate crowd off rule.

However you are saying he could have accidentally done it too.

To that I will say what rule was Vettel guilty of breaking in Britain when he accidentally shunted Max off the circuit and got a 20 second penalty? Whatever rule was broken there, Kimi broke the same rule if he accidentally shunted Max in Belgium. How about that then? Do you have a comeback now?

F1 Racer wrote:

Fiki wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

Fiki wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:
Conditions aren't really that difficult at the start if you abide by these principles:

(i) Brake in good time for turn 1 so that you don't go into the back of cars in front of you.
(ii) If you arrive at turn 1 on the outside, then take an outside path through the corner
(iii) If you arrive at turn 1 in the middle of the track then take a middle path through the corner
(iv) If you arrive at turn 1 on the inside, then take an inside path through the corner

If you follow these four principles you will be fine and any contact you have will always be someone else's fault as they either move laterally into you or brake too late and shunt you from behind. Now granted following all four of those principles will require you to give up some race time by braking too early and taking sub-optimal pathing through the corner, but that is the natural spreading of the pack concept and only really the first car or two can take turn 1 as they please and brake at the limit etc. Also if there is still a bunch of cars jostling for position into turn 2 or turn 3 at any given track, then still apply the four principles until the pack has all managed to join the racing line and got fully up to racing speed.

What Kimi did in Belgium was that he arrived into turn 1 in the middle of the corner, but then proceded to take an inside path through the corner, oblivious to other cars that may be arriving at turn 1 on the inside and taking an inside path through the corner themselves, (i.e. Max). Kimi got his principles mixed up basically and this is why the crash happened.

This obviously is crowding an inside car off the track, this definition is well understood. It possibly may not have been deliberate by Kimi, it could have just been incompetence, but generally driving errors such as this could also be deliberate, we don't know what Kimi was thinking, I mean he was fully in control of his car so why swerve it across to the inside like that? He moved his car to the inside deliberately, so if another car does get crowded off by this action then he deliberately crowded them off. It was possible that he did this deliberately but what is certain is another driver was taken out of the race by Kimi's incompetence or deliberate move and this should get punished either way.

So you admit it's possible Kimi didn't deliberately crowd Max off. So that's that really out of the way. Thank you!

Now, how about your other contention, about having to leave a car's width of space? If you quote the exact rule, it will be clear to you straightaway which error of interpretation you make there.

No, I am saying that it was likely deliberate. Kimi moved his car across deliberately. If he takes another car out in the process then Kimi is taking them out deliberately. In the slight chance it was just incompetence, punishments can still be handed out for incompetent driving as we know. So I am in no way letting Kimi off the hook, I am damning him even further.

The car's width of space we know is a 'thing', just look at Hamilton vs Ricciardo at Monaco, but even regardless of this, you cannot deliberately crowd another driver off the track and Kimi did this.

You are trying to argue technicalities to cover for Kimi, but this is a bad stance to take when what Kimi did was just plain bad driving no matter how you look at it.

Oh dear... You said that Kimi crowded Max off. The rule states that only deliberate crowding is forbidden. That is not a technicality I'm trying to argue, it is a matter of fact. You would have known this, if you had looked for the rule as I asked you in my first reaction to your claim.

The same goes for the car's width of space, which you may know to be a 'thing', but which you will find is not applicable in this case, because the rule clearly states it isn't. Do please look it up.

If it was deliberate then Kimi broke the deliberate crowd off rule.

However you are saying he could have accidentally done it too.

To that I will say what rule was Vettel guilty of breaking in Britain when he accidentally shunted Max off the circuit and got a 20 second penalty? Whatever rule was broken there, Kimi broke the same rule if he accidentally shunted Max in Belgium. How about that then? Do you have a comeback now?

For a relatively new member you sure are taking things way too seriously. Lighten up and maybe you'll find out discussions can be fun and other members will want to engage in a discussion with you in the future as well.

Covalent wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

Fiki wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:
No, I am saying that it was likely deliberate. Kimi moved his car across deliberately. If he takes another car out in the process then Kimi is taking them out deliberately. In the slight chance it was just incompetence, punishments can still be handed out for incompetent driving as we know. So I am in no way letting Kimi off the hook, I am damning him even further.

The car's width of space we know is a 'thing', just look at Hamilton vs Ricciardo at Monaco, but even regardless of this, you cannot deliberately crowd another driver off the track and Kimi did this.

You are trying to argue technicalities to cover for Kimi, but this is a bad stance to take when what Kimi did was just plain bad driving no matter how you look at it.

Oh dear... You said that Kimi crowded Max off. The rule states that only deliberate crowding is forbidden. That is not a technicality I'm trying to argue, it is a matter of fact. You would have known this, if you had looked for the rule as I asked you in my first reaction to your claim.

The same goes for the car's width of space, which you may know to be a 'thing', but which you will find is not applicable in this case, because the rule clearly states it isn't. Do please look it up.

If it was deliberate then Kimi broke the deliberate crowd off rule.

However you are saying he could have accidentally done it too.

To that I will say what rule was Vettel guilty of breaking in Britain when he accidentally shunted Max off the circuit and got a 20 second penalty? Whatever rule was broken there, Kimi broke the same rule if he accidentally shunted Max in Belgium. How about that then? Do you have a comeback now?

For a relatively new member you sure are taking things way too seriously. Lighten up and maybe you'll find out discussions can be fun and other members will want to engage in a discussion with you in the future as well.

Please can you leave out the personal attacks such as suggesting that I am taking things way too seriously. It would be better if you just stuck to the discussion at hand.

Remember, attack the points, not the poster.

F1 Racer wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:Also, why is no one mentioning about Lewis crowding Seb off the track at the same corner? It looked naughty what he did, just so that he could have great acceleration down the hill, and is completely different to the line he took at turn 1 in Baku 2019 with Bottas, where he delayed getting on the power at corner exit.

Basically because there is plenty of outside run-off area and because there was immediate focus drawn to the Kimi/Max crash, the Lewis/Seb incident got no attention at all, but it was still poor driving etiquette and also was against the rules.

No it wasn't against the rules nor was it an incident worthy of review. Seb had a bad start and Lewis was by him; done and dusted. Their cars never even touched. Seb just didn't want to tuck in behind and lose momentum so he gunned it through the runoff area. That's not on Lewis.

Does Lewis drive fully to the exit edge of the track? I believe that he does with Vettel alongside him, therefore he crowded Vettel off, and did the same thing that Vettel did to him in Canada.

What you are saying is that Vettel accelerated into the run off area so that he could pass Lewis 10 seconds later by getting a good run on him, therefore Vettel should be penalised.

At least one of them did something wrong there.

Wow, talk about over analyzing. Nothing wrong with what happened. Unless you really want to get into detail - maybe we could say, how about Vettel, leaving the track, gunning it and gaining an advantage? Had he staying within track limits he would have had to back off, fallen in behind Hamilton and been vulnerable to Bottas? Ferrari International Assistance is back everyone. Or not.

angrypirate wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:
Does Lewis drive fully to the exit edge of the track? I believe that he does with Vettel alongside him, therefore he crowded Vettel off, and did the same thing that Vettel did to him in Canada.

What you are saying is that Vettel accelerated into the run off area so that he could pass Lewis 10 seconds later by getting a good run on him, therefore Vettel should be penalised.

At least one of them did something wrong there.

Wow, talk about over analyzing. Nothing wrong with what happened. Unless you really want to get into detail - maybe we could say, how about Vettel, leaving the track, gunning it and gaining an advantage? Had he staying within track limits he would have had to back off, fallen in behind Hamilton and been vulnerable to Bottas? Ferrari International Assistance is back everyone. Or not.

Err... re-read the quote you are responding to and you will see that I already mentioned that Vettel could have been naughty by accelerating and gaining speed off the race track. I had covered that angle too.

Maybe the stewards chose not to act here because the transgression of Hamilton got corrected 10 seconds later as Seb passed him, and they allowed Seb's extra acceleration gained from the outside run-off to go unpunished as Seb was just using the run-off to help right the wrong that Hamilton did to him by forcing him off the track in the first place. I doubt it, but at least Hamilton ultimately didn't gain from crowding Seb off the track as Seb did manage to stay ahead of him later round the lap.

F1 Racer wrote:

Covalent wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

Fiki wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:
No, I am saying that it was likely deliberate. Kimi moved his car across deliberately. If he takes another car out in the process then Kimi is taking them out deliberately. In the slight chance it was just incompetence, punishments can still be handed out for incompetent driving as we know. So I am in no way letting Kimi off the hook, I am damning him even further.

The car's width of space we know is a 'thing', just look at Hamilton vs Ricciardo at Monaco, but even regardless of this, you cannot deliberately crowd another driver off the track and Kimi did this.

You are trying to argue technicalities to cover for Kimi, but this is a bad stance to take when what Kimi did was just plain bad driving no matter how you look at it.

Oh dear... You said that Kimi crowded Max off. The rule states that only deliberate crowding is forbidden. That is not a technicality I'm trying to argue, it is a matter of fact. You would have known this, if you had looked for the rule as I asked you in my first reaction to your claim.

The same goes for the car's width of space, which you may know to be a 'thing', but which you will find is not applicable in this case, because the rule clearly states it isn't. Do please look it up.

If it was deliberate then Kimi broke the deliberate crowd off rule.

However you are saying he could have accidentally done it too.

To that I will say what rule was Vettel guilty of breaking in Britain when he accidentally shunted Max off the circuit and got a 20 second penalty? Whatever rule was broken there, Kimi broke the same rule if he accidentally shunted Max in Belgium. How about that then? Do you have a comeback now?

For a relatively new member you sure are taking things way too seriously. Lighten up and maybe you'll find out discussions can be fun and other members will want to engage in a discussion with you in the future as well.

Please can you leave out the personal attacks such as suggesting that I am taking things way too seriously. It would be better if you just stuck to the discussion at hand.

Remember, attack the points, not the poster.

Case in point. It wasn't a personal attack, merely a suggestion based on an observation.

Covalent wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

Covalent wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:
If it was deliberate then Kimi broke the deliberate crowd off rule.

However you are saying he could have accidentally done it too.

To that I will say what rule was Vettel guilty of breaking in Britain when he accidentally shunted Max off the circuit and got a 20 second penalty? Whatever rule was broken there, Kimi broke the same rule if he accidentally shunted Max in Belgium. How about that then? Do you have a comeback now?

For a relatively new member you sure are taking things way too seriously. Lighten up and maybe you'll find out discussions can be fun and other members will want to engage in a discussion with you in the future as well.

Please can you leave out the personal attacks such as suggesting that I am taking things way too seriously. It would be better if you just stuck to the discussion at hand.

Remember, attack the points, not the poster.

Case in point. It wasn't a personal attack, merely a suggestion based on an observation.

It was a personal attack because the comment is irrelevant to the arguments. Just attack or defend the points that are made, that is all I am doing.

You were trying to throw scorn on my points by implying that perhaps my points could be wrong due to me taking the situation too seriously and therefore coming to the wrong conclusions as a result. Instead you should attempt to show me coming to the wrong conclusions by successfully debating against my points and not my character.

F1 Racer wrote:

Covalent wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

Covalent wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:
If it was deliberate then Kimi broke the deliberate crowd off rule.

However you are saying he could have accidentally done it too.

To that I will say what rule was Vettel guilty of breaking in Britain when he accidentally shunted Max off the circuit and got a 20 second penalty? Whatever rule was broken there, Kimi broke the same rule if he accidentally shunted Max in Belgium. How about that then? Do you have a comeback now?

For a relatively new member you sure are taking things way too seriously. Lighten up and maybe you'll find out discussions can be fun and other members will want to engage in a discussion with you in the future as well.

Please can you leave out the personal attacks such as suggesting that I am taking things way too seriously. It would be better if you just stuck to the discussion at hand.

Remember, attack the points, not the poster.

Case in point. It wasn't a personal attack, merely a suggestion based on an observation.

It was a personal attack because the comment is irrelevant to the arguments. Just attack or defend the points that are made, that is all I am doing.

You were trying to throw scorn on my points by implying that perhaps my points could be wrong due to me taking the situation too seriously and therefore coming to the wrong conclusions as a result. Instead you should attempt to show me coming to the wrong conclusions by successfully debating against my points and not my character.

Incorrect, I don't care about your conclusions but the tone is a bit too aggressive sometimes.

Anyway, enough of the OT, take it easy.

mikeyg123 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:The rules definitely say Kimi was at fault. If someone as a significant portion of their car alongside you have to leave space and Kimi didn't. Max took a risk he perhaps didn't need to take but the blame for the accident is all on Kimi.

When you are concentrating on not hitting the car in front you are not necessarily aware of everything around you especially as Verstappen's car was masked by Perez's as Verstappen deemed it wise to dive on the inside of not one but two cars, this feels like a deja vue to recent 2017 discussions.

Oh this was a bigger risk than any of his 3 lap one incidents in 2017. He put himself in a risky position here.

Yeah like I say it's weighing up the risk and reward, his run of form this last 12 months is based on getting that balance right.

F1 Racer wrote:Also, why is no one mentioning about Lewis crowding Seb off the track at the same corner? It looked naughty what he did, just so that he could have great acceleration down the hill, and is completely different to the line he took at turn 1 in Baku 2019 with Bottas, where he delayed getting on the power at corner exit.

Basically because there is plenty of outside run-off area and because there was immediate focus drawn to the Kimi/Max crash, the Lewis/Seb incident got no attention at all, but it was still poor driving etiquette and also was against the rules.

Hamilton left Vettel just enough room to stay on the track, Vettel's car veered to the left because he lost traction on the kerb.

Option or Prime wrote:Just consider what you are suggesting for a minute:

1) You are saying F1 racing drivers should go slower in the the first corner of a grand prix and give room to all around them. The fastest drivers in the world are never going to do that they want to race in addition they would need swivel heads to do that. Looking backwards is a nice idea but they are going to assume that no-one is going to do anything daft.

2) That the day after they lost a fellow driver an ex world champion deliberately caused an accident.

Verstappen must have been in a hyped up mood because to drive to the next turn at close to racing speed with broken steering suspension is particularly sensible, especially when it is so close to the turn where the accident happened the day before.

I think it is a racing incident, Verstappen was daft to go there, Kimi turned in not expecting a dive down the inside. Even if MV had made the corner I'm not sure where he would have ended up!

Indeed Verstappen did the exact same thing in 2016 at the same corner, diving on the inside of 2 cars and how did that turn out for him?

pokerman wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:Also, why is no one mentioning about Lewis crowding Seb off the track at the same corner? It looked naughty what he did, just so that he could have great acceleration down the hill, and is completely different to the line he took at turn 1 in Baku 2019 with Bottas, where he delayed getting on the power at corner exit.

Basically because there is plenty of outside run-off area and because there was immediate focus drawn to the Kimi/Max crash, the Lewis/Seb incident got no attention at all, but it was still poor driving etiquette and also was against the rules.

Hamilton left Vettel just enough room to stay on the track, Vettel's car veered to the left because he lost traction on the kerb.

Vettel was forced pretty much fully onto and over the kerb so Hamilton didn't really leave enough space. It is kind of marginal but a bit naughty from Lewis. The fact that Vettel lost traction shows that he was unfairly forced onto a disadvantageous part of the track; the left side of his car and wheels go beyond the kerbing and onto the run off so I don't think he was given quite enough space.

pokerman wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:Just consider what you are suggesting for a minute:

1) You are saying F1 racing drivers should go slower in the the first corner of a grand prix and give room to all around them. The fastest drivers in the world are never going to do that they want to race in addition they would need swivel heads to do that. Looking backwards is a nice idea but they are going to assume that no-one is going to do anything daft.

2) That the day after they lost a fellow driver an ex world champion deliberately caused an accident.

Verstappen must have been in a hyped up mood because to drive to the next turn at close to racing speed with broken steering suspension is particularly sensible, especially when it is so close to the turn where the accident happened the day before.

I think it is a racing incident, Verstappen was daft to go there, Kimi turned in not expecting a dive down the inside. Even if MV had made the corner I'm not sure where he would have ended up!

Indeed Verstappen did the exact same thing in 2016 at the same corner, diving on the inside of 2 cars and how did that turn out for him?

There in 2016 it was Vettel's fault, moving from the outside of the track to the middle of the track and squeezing two cars to his inside, (Kimi and Max). Bad driving from Vettel, he should have stayed to the outside of the track and no crash would have happened there.

WHoff78 wrote:Kimi was trying to avoid those around him. I feel like on reflection he would probably do the same again. Max perhaps would do the same again to but only because he tends to take more risks and can afford to. But I would guess that when he's in a championship fight we wouldn't see max take a similar risk if he has any sense. Right now there's far less pressure on those decisions for Max so it's hard to be sure.

This is an old argument dating back to 2017, he has nothing to lose, however this past 12 months he still hasn't had a WDC capable car but guess what after his disastrous start in 2018 because he carried on in the same vein as before, he started taking less risks and the better results came along with better acclaim to the point of some saying that he is now driving better than Hamilton.

He got himself to the point of challenging for second place in the WDC against a faster Mercedes and Ferrari so I would say he had something to lose yet he still took the risk.

F1 Racer wrote:It's pretty much a carbon copy of Australia 1994 actually. Kimi's car even tilts up onto two wheels like Michael's Benetton did, and Max's front-left wishbone gets damaged like on Damon's car. Hearing Brundle saying it was Max's fault in the highlights is absolutely laughable when Damon Hill was deemed innocent for doing the same thing all those years ago.

Schumacher had just hit a wall and damaged his car which Hill was unaware of, Schumacher knew he was done for so it was his intent to take Hill out.

mikeyg123 wrote:I'm surprised at the pass Kimi is getting for sweeping across the track to the inside and not considering someone maybe alongside him. If the roles were reversed I'm sure Verstappen would be getting heavily criticised for that oversite.

He moved across to defend against Perez, something that you are perfectly entitled to do.

pokerman wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:It's pretty much a carbon copy of Australia 1994 actually. Kimi's car even tilts up onto two wheels like Michael's Benetton did, and Max's front-left wishbone gets damaged like on Damon's car. Hearing Brundle saying it was Max's fault in the highlights is absolutely laughable when Damon Hill was deemed innocent for doing the same thing all those years ago.

Schumacher had just hit a wall and damaged his car which Hill was unaware of, Schumacher knew he was done for so it was his intent to take Hill out.

We don't know with any certainty Schumacher's or Kimi's intention but their cars took the same naughty trajectory into the inside car... so both were wrong imo.

F1 Racer wrote:

pokerman wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:Also, why is no one mentioning about Lewis crowding Seb off the track at the same corner? It looked naughty what he did, just so that he could have great acceleration down the hill, and is completely different to the line he took at turn 1 in Baku 2019 with Bottas, where he delayed getting on the power at corner exit.

Basically because there is plenty of outside run-off area and because there was immediate focus drawn to the Kimi/Max crash, the Lewis/Seb incident got no attention at all, but it was still poor driving etiquette and also was against the rules.

Hamilton left Vettel just enough room to stay on the track, Vettel's car veered to the left because he lost traction on the kerb.

Vettel was forced pretty much fully onto and over the kerb so Hamilton didn't really leave enough space. It is kind of marginal but a bit naughty from Lewis. The fact that Vettel lost traction shows that he was unfairly forced onto a disadvantageous part of the track; the left side of his car and wheels go beyond the kerbing and onto the run off so I don't think he was given quite enough space.

He was still on the track, the kerb is the track otherwise drivers consistently abuse track limits.

F1 Racer wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:Just consider what you are suggesting for a minute:

1) You are saying F1 racing drivers should go slower in the the first corner of a grand prix and give room to all around them. The fastest drivers in the world are never going to do that they want to race in addition they would need swivel heads to do that. Looking backwards is a nice idea but they are going to assume that no-one is going to do anything daft.

2) That the day after they lost a fellow driver an ex world champion deliberately caused an accident.

Verstappen must have been in a hyped up mood because to drive to the next turn at close to racing speed with broken steering suspension is particularly sensible, especially when it is so close to the turn where the accident happened the day before.

I think it is a racing incident, Verstappen was daft to go there, Kimi turned in not expecting a dive down the inside. Even if MV had made the corner I'm not sure where he would have ended up!

Indeed Verstappen did the exact same thing in 2016 at the same corner, diving on the inside of 2 cars and how did that turn out for him?

There in 2016 it was Vettel's fault, moving from the outside of the track to the middle of the track and squeezing two cars to his inside, (Kimi and Max). Bad driving from Vettel, he should have stayed to the outside of the track and no crash would have happened there.

For my part I'm happy to consider it a racing incident, my stake in this is to question the level of risk that Verstappen took.

pokerman wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

pokerman wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:Also, why is no one mentioning about Lewis crowding Seb off the track at the same corner? It looked naughty what he did, just so that he could have great acceleration down the hill, and is completely different to the line he took at turn 1 in Baku 2019 with Bottas, where he delayed getting on the power at corner exit.

Basically because there is plenty of outside run-off area and because there was immediate focus drawn to the Kimi/Max crash, the Lewis/Seb incident got no attention at all, but it was still poor driving etiquette and also was against the rules.

Hamilton left Vettel just enough room to stay on the track, Vettel's car veered to the left because he lost traction on the kerb.

Vettel was forced pretty much fully onto and over the kerb so Hamilton didn't really leave enough space. It is kind of marginal but a bit naughty from Lewis. The fact that Vettel lost traction shows that he was unfairly forced onto a disadvantageous part of the track; the left side of his car and wheels go beyond the kerbing and onto the run off so I don't think he was given quite enough space.

He was still on the track, the kerb is the track otherwise drivers consistently abuse track limits.

I think you have to have at least one tyre always between the white lines and the kerbs are past the white lines and regarded as not part of the track officially. Seb was forced fully over the white lines as that is where his car went just before he lost control.

pokerman wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:Just consider what you are suggesting for a minute:

1) You are saying F1 racing drivers should go slower in the the first corner of a grand prix and give room to all around them. The fastest drivers in the world are never going to do that they want to race in addition they would need swivel heads to do that. Looking backwards is a nice idea but they are going to assume that no-one is going to do anything daft.

2) That the day after they lost a fellow driver an ex world champion deliberately caused an accident.

Verstappen must have been in a hyped up mood because to drive to the next turn at close to racing speed with broken steering suspension is particularly sensible, especially when it is so close to the turn where the accident happened the day before.

I think it is a racing incident, Verstappen was daft to go there, Kimi turned in not expecting a dive down the inside. Even if MV had made the corner I'm not sure where he would have ended up!

Indeed Verstappen did the exact same thing in 2016 at the same corner, diving on the inside of 2 cars and how did that turn out for him?

There in 2016 it was Vettel's fault, moving from the outside of the track to the middle of the track and squeezing two cars to his inside, (Kimi and Max). Bad driving from Vettel, he should have stayed to the outside of the track and no crash would have happened there.

For my part I'm happy to consider it a racing incident, my stake in this is to question the level of risk that Verstappen took.

2016 was just as avoidable as 2019.

The risk only comes about due to the inconsistent application of the rules and drivers getting away with driving badly.

If Max could be confident that Kimi would be forced to give him space or Kimi would get a really severe penalty if he didn't, then there is zero risk for Max to attempt to pass Kimi there. Unfortunately because those conditions don't actually exist due to poor stewarding, Max trying to pass there was a small risk.

F1 Racer wrote:

pokerman wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:It's pretty much a carbon copy of Australia 1994 actually. Kimi's car even tilts up onto two wheels like Michael's Benetton did, and Max's front-left wishbone gets damaged like on Damon's car. Hearing Brundle saying it was Max's fault in the highlights is absolutely laughable when Damon Hill was deemed innocent for doing the same thing all those years ago.

Schumacher had just hit a wall and damaged his car which Hill was unaware of, Schumacher knew he was done for so it was his intent to take Hill out.

We don't know with any certainty Schumacher's or Kimi's intention but their cars took the same naughty trajectory into the inside car... so both were wrong imo.

Two completely differently scenarios, unlike Schumacher, Kimi was driving at racing speed, also Schumacher tried to repeat the trick against Villenueve in Jerez 1997 for which he got disqualified from the WDC, there was no benefit to Kimi in crashing both himself and Verstappen out of the race.

F1 Racer wrote:

pokerman wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

pokerman wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:Also, why is no one mentioning about Lewis crowding Seb off the track at the same corner? It looked naughty what he did, just so that he could have great acceleration down the hill, and is completely different to the line he took at turn 1 in Baku 2019 with Bottas, where he delayed getting on the power at corner exit.

Basically because there is plenty of outside run-off area and because there was immediate focus drawn to the Kimi/Max crash, the Lewis/Seb incident got no attention at all, but it was still poor driving etiquette and also was against the rules.

Hamilton left Vettel just enough room to stay on the track, Vettel's car veered to the left because he lost traction on the kerb.

Vettel was forced pretty much fully onto and over the kerb so Hamilton didn't really leave enough space. It is kind of marginal but a bit naughty from Lewis. The fact that Vettel lost traction shows that he was unfairly forced onto a disadvantageous part of the track; the left side of his car and wheels go beyond the kerbing and onto the run off so I don't think he was given quite enough space.

He was still on the track, the kerb is the track otherwise drivers consistently abuse track limits.

I think you have to have at least one tyre always between the white lines and the kerbs are past the white lines and regarded as not part of the track officially. Seb was forced fully over the white lines as that is where his car went just before he lost control.

In that case every qualifying lap should have been annulled and every driver penalised in the race for consistently abusing track limits, the white line I believe only applies to the inside of corners?

I think you need to have a think about what you just said?

pokerman wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

pokerman wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:It's pretty much a carbon copy of Australia 1994 actually. Kimi's car even tilts up onto two wheels like Michael's Benetton did, and Max's front-left wishbone gets damaged like on Damon's car. Hearing Brundle saying it was Max's fault in the highlights is absolutely laughable when Damon Hill was deemed innocent for doing the same thing all those years ago.

Schumacher had just hit a wall and damaged his car which Hill was unaware of, Schumacher knew he was done for so it was his intent to take Hill out.

We don't know with any certainty Schumacher's or Kimi's intention but their cars took the same naughty trajectory into the inside car... so both were wrong imo.

Two completely differently scenarios, unlike Schumacher, Kimi was driving at racing speed, also Schumacher tried to repeat the trick against Villenueve in Jerez 1997 for which he got disqualified from the WDC, there was no benefit to Kimi in crashing both himself and Verstappen out of the race.

I was mainly likening the two scenarios due to the physical impacts that the cars took due to the coming togethers occurring in the same manner, (albeit for different stakes and one likely deliberate, the other likely incompetence).

Yeah, so Kimi instead fell foul of the one that Vettel did in Britain. What was the rule that Vettel broke when he crashed into Max a few races ago?