I'm honestly not sure if this is the appropriate time to be starting something like this but I did notice discussion on it in the race thread so I hope it's ok.

Mods - If you deem it inappropriate or insensitive at this time please feel free to lock or better still delete the thread & accept my apologies. The skill of social timing has never been one of my strengths.

Carrying on the discussion regarding the Eau Rouge / Radillon complex & the part it may have played in the F2 accident.

The problem I see with Eau Rouge / Radillon is that due to the speed, lack of run off, lack of visibility over the crest & possibility the slight unsettling of the car over Radillon, most accidents there are seldom minor. The only way I can see safety through that area improving is if they modify the complex.

Those of my vintage will remember how it was changed in the wake of Senna's death in 94.



My fear here is that this sad, tragic accident, like Tamburello in the wake of Senna's death, could be the catalyst to permanently neuter this magnificent piece of racing real estate as we see above. The race fan in me dearly hopes it isn't. The former safety professional in me looks at that corner, looks at the history of the accidents there, looks at all the options available & in the end would probably find it difficult to raise a valid argument against the decision if it was. I certainly think the option will, & should, be tabled for discussion during the investigation & there will probably be a certain amount of pressure to modify the complex on a permanent basis from various quarters. I've little doubt it'll be a topic for discussion in the media at the very least because lets face it, if we were asked what corner would we most expect something like this to happen, Radillon would be very high if not on the top of the list for most of us.

Those charged with the thankless task of investigating the accident & putting forward recommendations to mitigate the risk of this happening again, & those to whom the responsibility of deciding what, if any, recommendations to accept & implement, could very well have some difficult & very unpopular, but in the end, necessary & justifiable, decisions to make.

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The last 3 deaths have all been at that point of the circuit, so you can be sure there will be a thorough investigation. It was a very unfortunate accident, although the way that car split apart was something we don’t often see these days. Not sure what they can do to change that area of the circuit, I just hope they don’t try and slow the cars into eau rouge.

Raidillon has been permanently modified before (at least, the runoff has) due to major accidents. I believe Luciano Burti skating over the gravel there and burying himself in the tyres had a lot to do with that.

I think the only safety changes that need to be made involve moving that barrier so that it no longer deflects cars back onto the circuit - or into the vicinity. This will, I know, mean removing some of the safety team from that location, but considering how rarely the runoff on the outside of Eau Rouge is used, there's a fair argument for a barrier there to house the equipment and personnel. Failing that, they could easily reclaim part of the General Admission hillside along the Kemmel Straight.

I don't think any of these would necessarily be popular decisions, but they'd be more popular than neutering one of the most exciting corners in European motorsports when the rearranging of barriers would probably suffice.

I've only seen the crash once and have no desire to do so again, but I didn't notice whether the barrier at that part of the track is still the traditional tyre wall that it was in 2012, or if it's become Tecpro? That's another change that really should have happened by now. That or an Indy-style SAFER barrier, considering the speeds and forces involved in crashes there. If those can handle oval-type impacts, they'll be able to handle an F1 car coming over Raidillon. And almost any other car racing there does so with less potential force in a crash.

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But like the Senna accident in 1994 the death itself wasn't caused by the circuit design. Senna was killed by a piece of the front wheel assembly piercing his visor, Hubert was killed by being hit at very high speed by another car and his car being sliced in half.

As mentioned by the OP, I can see arguments for and against changing this section of the track.

Personally, I wouldn't want Eau Rouge or Radillon to be altered. It is one of the most iconic sections of any race track in the world. Hubert's death is an incredibly tragic accident. A freak accident at that, if it wasn't for his car ricocheting the way it did, everyone will have almost definitely walked away from this one unscathed.

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That wasn't at the Raidillon Tufty, but at the entry to Blanchimont.

If I interpreted the footage correctly, it wasn't the barrier that deflected the car back onto the track, but being hit by a following car. There's only so much you can do by enlarging run-offs.

My main recommendation would be to increase respect for the danger in motorsport, for the specifics of one of the greatest corner complexes in the world, and to stop increasing downforce in the silly pursuit of meaningless track and lap records. Not that this is necessarily relevant to F2, or this specific accident I admit.

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Oops, so it was. My memory is going hazy in my old age! Still, it shows the potential danger of tyre walls at high speeds, so I stand by my Tecpro/SAFER barrier suggestion.


True, the impact from the car was a factor, but there's definitely an impact with the barrier right before the front half of the Arden comes back onto the track. The barrier goes round trees though, not a marshall post, so it's not as easy to push the barrier back. Might be necessary to lose a few trees there though.

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Sorry but thats not accurate.

Any accident investigation looks for whats called the " root cause" of the accident. The starting point of the accident. You find that by continuously asking 1 word.

"Why"

Why did a piece of Senna's suspension pierce his visor? Why was Huberts car hit by another? Keep on asking why to the answers & you generally end up finding the root cause of the accident. Part of that process involves looking at a whole lot of factors that could've played a part in the accident. such as the drivers, the cars, the weather, the road surface, the circuit itself (including run off & barriers), previous races that day, the list goes on & on & on.

Now in Huberts case, & i'll admit i'm not all over exactly what happened in the lead up to the accident, you might find that after asking why a few times that you end up with the answer that Alesi spun simply because it's an inherent part of the sport. That might be your root cause.

In that case you accept that cars will spin every now & then & there's really nothing that can be done to change that without destroying the sport. So you then say " Ok, cars are going to spin off, we'll have to make sure that when they do the risk of injury to the drivers, marshals, crowd or anyone else is minimised". You then look at the contributing factors which I go on explaining for another 5000 words.

Suffice to say, in Senna's case, it's generally believed, perhaps incorrectly, that a faulty steering rack snapped causing Senna to go off. He then slammed directly into a concrete wall that was on the other side of a gravel trap way too narrow to sufficiently arrest the speed of the car enough to prevent a serious accident. It is the impact with the wall that caused the suspension component to break & strike Senna. Also remember that both Piquet & Berger had previously had very, very similar accidents at the same spot & nothing was done to prevent it from happening again.

Hubert's accident is similar in that, considering the speed the cars travel past that point, the wall is very close to the track. If you want to try to prevent this from happening again, similar to the Pocono thread, there's basically 3 choices.

1 - Reduce the power of the cars
2 - Modify the track. That could mean increase runoff, modify / move / add safety barriers, change the actual profile of the track. In this you should choose the option/s that are the most effective.
3 - Don't race there again

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Move the barrier further in or modify the angle so cars don't get pushed back onto track

As already mentioned, the barrier appears to be the area to look at, not the corners before it.

As for re-profiling that section of the circuit, well, as F1 cars seem to take it flat with reasonable ease, a slight tightening of it could slow them a tiny amount and not only make it a little slower but also a little more challenging.

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No doubt Hubert's car struck the tyre barrier & bounced off a little back towards the racing track but it was in the run off area. Shouldn't Correa (a driver) also be a factor here because he for some reason failed to stop or just misjudged the whole incident ahead & went on through the run off area unless it was too late?

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It's over the brow of the hill. Correa would be unsighted.

Mate but as per the crash footage, a few cars before Correa managed to slow down a lot. It looked like as if he just took a diversion but didn't slow down. In freak accidents like these, human factor will always have a huge hand o play IMO.

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It's been suggested that Correa's car was damaged from hitting debris. There's no clear footage but he does appear to have a right rear puncture. It is also worth noting that Hubert's car did not actually return to the track and the collision happened in the run-off area, further suggesting that Correa hit something or lost control at the entry to Raidillon as he otherwise wouldn't have been out there in the first place.

I do think that they need to take a serious look at the run-off area, and move the barrier further from the track if possible. At the moment there's just not enough space for a car to have an accident at the top of the hill and be out of the line of fire.

You'd need to see his on-board but to me it looks like he comes over the brow of the hill, sees loads of cars slowing in front of him, moves over into the run off and hits Hubert.

It's worth remembering that this wasn't caused by a car coming back on the track. Hubert was still well off track when he was hit.

One of those freak scenarios where actually having more run off caused the accident. With gravel there Correa couldn't have taken that route.

I might be looking at different footage.

The only car I can see travelling slow as Hubert impacts the tyre barrier is Alesi because his rear wing is missing. Every other car at that point is at full speed.

Even after Correa hits Hubert, the cars behind don't slow down until Hubert & Correa are in the middle of the track.

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That is a very important observation, and what makes me more confident that the first area to look at isn't necessarily the run-off atop the Raidillon, is the fact that Magnussen's car didn't leave the run-off either. I believe that even this accident should not be used as a pretext for track alterations, or further extensions of existing run-offs. The chicane put in place at Zolder, after Villeneuve's death, shows how stupid reactions after a tragedy can sometimes be.

I believe that the FIA should do all it can to promote respect for track limits, and responsible racing behaviour first and foremost. Yesterday's incidents in F1 qualifying seem already to have been forgotten. How on earth can we just let something as dangerously stupid as that pass?

Just let me add that I don't believe irresponsible behaviour was a factor in the accident that claimed Hubert's life yesterday.

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Did Hubert's car actually come back onto the track, Correa was actually off the track himself when he hit Huberts car?

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No it didn't come back on track & as far as i'm aware it wasn't the impact with the barrier that caused Hubert's major injuries.

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You're right Mate. I saw the footage again. Other cars were still going fast but were on the track. Correa's car somehow went on the run off area where Hubert's car was about to rest after colliding with the barriers.

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Here about 1/2 a second before. Don't know if Correa was taking an avoiding action & left the racing line & thought run off area would be safer to avoid the crashed car or debris?
[Image removed by mod]

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Yep Correa ran off the track at full speed without lifting, I can't help feeling that systems should employ that cut the power to cars when they are off the track, as it stands now run off areas are treated by the drivers as very much part of the track, keep your foot in, the safety of the track is then compromised when drivers can drive flat out at 170 mph that close to the barriers.

I'm not saying such a system would have prevented the fatality but if drivers knew they were going to lose power to their cars once off the track maybe they would make more of an effort to stay on the track which initially would involve them actually slowing down rather rather than just booting it down the available escape routes with the priority to lose as little time as possible.

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Yes but I believe they removed the gravel because that also caused safety problems?

I ventured a different option in my post above.

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Yes I'm aware of that just correcting the notion that Hubert's car came back onto the track.

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Indeed so can we say that a driver choosing to drive flat out in a run off area is actually a fault of the track?

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It may not me that east. Remember, it's very hilly around there and it drops downhill considerably across to the area of the track towards Pouhon. Therefore, it may be that to move barriers back a decent distance could me impossible.

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Exactly the section I referred to above, yeah

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That looks possible. I just know from many explorations around the circuit, there's significant elevation drops within short distances of the barriers in places.

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It may be that the ground softens before these drops so the barriers can't be moved backwards, but I can't see any obvious issue with straightening that barrier. They could even just square off that barrier and add another medical post behind it if they don't want a clean line all the way through, but I don't think that would be as safe.

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Of course, it could simply be decided that it was a dreadful set of circumstances that sadly all came together resulting in no changes being made.

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I'm pretty certain that will be the conclusion. And they'll be right, in my view. My observations probably would have made limited difference in this case, other than maybe if the barrier didn't veer back towards the track there, Hubert would have been shunted sideways rather than smashed into a barrier that effectively hit him at the speed he was pushed by Correa. But then, he could have ended up in the path of another car, with a tub that had already taken one high speed collision. So it's all conjecture, but I stand by what I wrote above. That wall, in my view, played a part in this crash panning out the way it did, and isn't the safest option available for that corner.

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That wall played a part in the way the second crash panned out. I honestly can't see extending the rear end of the run-off even further would make sense.

I hope Giovinazzi's hit on the barriers, after having all the benefit of being able to brake on the asphalt run-off, will lead to a review of such run-off areas. It reminded me of Burti at Blanchimont in 2001.

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Spa has always been dangerous but I think we have to remember that if we want close racing, you are going to get t-bone situations and multiple car pile ups which the cars simply are not designed to handle. If a 200 mph car hits an unsighted static vehicle, there is not much science can do the save lives. You can change the layout all you like, but Jessie Combs died last week driving in a desert in a straight line. The bottom line is, if you are in motorsport you are at risk of fatal injury.

Full disclosure. I'm Australian, and obviously a fan of Daniel Ricciardo. I was annoyed by Renault's strategy for Dan, but actually thinking about it on a other level, it was questionable just from a safety point of view.

I'm not advocating for an enforced limit on laps at all, I think that would be counterproductive. And Renault aren't the only team to run tyres well past Pirelli's recommendations.

But at Spa, with Eau Rouge and the sad passing of Anthoine, I think at the very least they should be called to account. It did look like Dan did a really good job on stretching out the tyres. But still, I think where a team does run long laps on the extreme side (it doesn't get more extreme than all but 1 lap of a GP), stewards should haul them up for the team's to speak to how they ensured at no time the tyres became unsafe.

There are pictures that show that Hubert's car was in the run off area and well off the track when it was struck by Correa's car, back to my point about cars being able to drive at full speed whilst outside the confines of the track.

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Are we allowing cars to race whilst off the track then all in the name of safety?

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If you have set lap limits on tyres then that then is simply not racing.

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