Albon versus Verstappen

Forum rules
Please read the forum rules
F1 Racer
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by F1 Racer »

sandman1347 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:I hate to say it but that looked pretty poor from Albon. Yes, he's probably a bit better than Gasly but he needs to be a significant improvement over him. I can't see Red Bull challenging for second in the Constructors Cup. It's not Albon's job to finish 6th like someone above said, his job is to be in the mix and at least beat the Ferrari's when Red Bull's car is the first or second fastest car at the track, (yes RB may be the third best car overall but they are not third fastest car at every circuit).

If Albon is well off Max in Monza and Singapore, then I am finished with him as far as thinking he has what it takes at this level. We know it is possible to lose slightly to Max, as Dan showed over the last season or so; and Albon and co. need to be perhaps slightly further away from Max than Dan managed. Instead these guys are way off Max and I don't buy the idea that he wasn't trying that hard in qualifying due to the grid penalty, 0.9 seconds off Max in Q1 and 1.7 seconds off in Q2, that is pretty big, even if Spa is a long lap.

Also Albon wouldn't have beaten Norris in the race so it wasn't like Albon came through the pack and beat all the midfield.

I'm giving him a couple more races but I bet he turns out to be as slow as a sack of potatoes.
That qualifying performance was NOT indicative of his overall pace. Look at his speed down the straights. He was losing massive amounts of time on the straights to Max; which suggests to me that they didn't even put the engine in qualifying mode. At least give him a qualifying session where he actually is trying to get the best position he can. Jeez what an unreasonable assessment.
You seem to have ignored the part where I said I am giving him another couple of races to make an assessment but the writing is on the wall for sure.

BMWSauber84
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by BMWSauber84 »

F1 Racer wrote:I hate to say it but that looked pretty poor from Albon. Yes, he's probably a bit better than Gasly but he needs to be a significant improvement over him. I can't see Red Bull challenging for second in the Constructors Cup. It's not Albon's job to finish 6th like someone above said, his job is to be in the mix and at least beat the Ferrari's when Red Bull's car is the first or second fastest car at the track, (yes RB may be the third best car overall but they are not third fastest car at every circuit).

If Albon is well off Max in Monza and Singapore, then I am finished with him as far as thinking he has what it takes at this level. We know it is possible to lose slightly to Max, as Dan showed over the last season or so; and Albon and co. need to be perhaps slightly further away from Max than Dan managed. Instead these guys are way off Max and I don't buy the idea that he wasn't trying that hard in qualifying due to the grid penalty, 0.9 seconds off Max in Q1 and 1.7 seconds off in Q2, that is pretty big, even if Spa is a long lap.

Also Albon wouldn't have beaten Norris in the race so it wasn't like Albon came through the pack and beat all the midfield.

I'm giving him a couple more races but I bet he turns out to be as slow as a sack of potatoes.
What an absolutely ludicrous assessment based on a weekend where Albon was compromised from the start AND having to learn in a brand new car having come in mid season.

Monza will be a fairer assessment of where the Albon pace is at assuming both he and Verstappen have normal weekends.

F1 Racer
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by F1 Racer »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:I hate to say it but that looked pretty poor from Albon. Yes, he's probably a bit better than Gasly but he needs to be a significant improvement over him. I can't see Red Bull challenging for second in the Constructors Cup. It's not Albon's job to finish 6th like someone above said, his job is to be in the mix and at least beat the Ferrari's when Red Bull's car is the first or second fastest car at the track, (yes RB may be the third best car overall but they are not third fastest car at every circuit).

If Albon is well off Max in Monza and Singapore, then I am finished with him as far as thinking he has what it takes at this level. We know it is possible to lose slightly to Max, as Dan showed over the last season or so; and Albon and co. need to be perhaps slightly further away from Max than Dan managed. Instead these guys are way off Max and I don't buy the idea that he wasn't trying that hard in qualifying due to the grid penalty, 0.9 seconds off Max in Q1 and 1.7 seconds off in Q2, that is pretty big, even if Spa is a long lap.

Also Albon wouldn't have beaten Norris in the race so it wasn't like Albon came through the pack and beat all the midfield.

I'm giving him a couple more races but I bet he turns out to be as slow as a sack of potatoes.
What an absolutely ludicrous assessment based on a weekend where Albon was compromised from the start AND having to learn in a brand new car having come in mid season.

Monza will be a fairer assessment of where the Albon pace is at assuming both he and Verstappen have normal weekends.
Like I said above, it's the beginning of an assessment that isn't complete yet.

sandman1347
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by sandman1347 »

F1 Racer wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:I hate to say it but that looked pretty poor from Albon. Yes, he's probably a bit better than Gasly but he needs to be a significant improvement over him. I can't see Red Bull challenging for second in the Constructors Cup. It's not Albon's job to finish 6th like someone above said, his job is to be in the mix and at least beat the Ferrari's when Red Bull's car is the first or second fastest car at the track, (yes RB may be the third best car overall but they are not third fastest car at every circuit).

If Albon is well off Max in Monza and Singapore, then I am finished with him as far as thinking he has what it takes at this level. We know it is possible to lose slightly to Max, as Dan showed over the last season or so; and Albon and co. need to be perhaps slightly further away from Max than Dan managed. Instead these guys are way off Max and I don't buy the idea that he wasn't trying that hard in qualifying due to the grid penalty, 0.9 seconds off Max in Q1 and 1.7 seconds off in Q2, that is pretty big, even if Spa is a long lap.

Also Albon wouldn't have beaten Norris in the race so it wasn't like Albon came through the pack and beat all the midfield.

I'm giving him a couple more races but I bet he turns out to be as slow as a sack of potatoes.
That qualifying performance was NOT indicative of his overall pace. Look at his speed down the straights. He was losing massive amounts of time on the straights to Max; which suggests to me that they didn't even put the engine in qualifying mode. At least give him a qualifying session where he actually is trying to get the best position he can. Jeez what an unreasonable assessment.
You seem to have ignored the part where I said I am giving him another couple of races to make an assessment but the writing is on the wall for sure.
I don't know what you were watching but I saw a young driver in his rookie season and in a new car mid-season for the first time starting at the back. He calmly worked his way up through the field; showing both patience and aggression where needed and he finished the race as high up as could possibly be expected of him. For me it was a grade A performance and the qualifying piece is totally irrelevant as he knew he was starting from the back and did not actually try to qualify as quickly as possible. How you walk away from that feeling like "the writing is on the wall" that he's not good enough is completely beyond me.

-K-
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:00 pm

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by -K- »

I’m pretty sure I saw Albon say he wished he could have given it a proper go in qualifying to see where he would have ended up, so obviously he followed team instructions there. I won’t criticise him for that, only the team. Didn’t Stroll start the race ahead of him with the same penalties so he could have started a position ahead of where he did had he been allowed to put in an average lap in a Red Bull?

F1 Racer
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by F1 Racer »

-K- wrote:I’m pretty sure I saw Albon say he wished he could have given it a proper go in qualifying to see where he would have ended up, so obviously he followed team instructions there. I won’t criticise him for that, only the team. Didn’t Stroll start the race ahead of him with the same penalties so he could have started a position ahead of where he did had he been allowed to put in an average lap in a Red Bull?
I was very, very surprised with the amount of praise that Albon was getting for his Belgium Grand Prix drive, but it's early days so hopefully he can show something that really makes him stand out this weekend.

With Max's engine penalty in Italy, he needs to beat him for sure.

User avatar
F1 MERCENARY
Posts: 2387
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:38 pm
Location: Miami, Florida

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

sandman1347 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:I hate to say it but that looked pretty poor from Albon. Yes, he's probably a bit better than Gasly but he needs to be a significant improvement over him. I can't see Red Bull challenging for second in the Constructors Cup. It's not Albon's job to finish 6th like someone above said, his job is to be in the mix and at least beat the Ferrari's when Red Bull's car is the first or second fastest car at the track, (yes RB may be the third best car overall but they are not third fastest car at every circuit).

If Albon is well off Max in Monza and Singapore, then I am finished with him as far as thinking he has what it takes at this level. We know it is possible to lose slightly to Max, as Dan showed over the last season or so; and Albon and co. need to be perhaps slightly further away from Max than Dan managed. Instead these guys are way off Max and I don't buy the idea that he wasn't trying that hard in qualifying due to the grid penalty, 0.9 seconds off Max in Q1 and 1.7 seconds off in Q2, that is pretty big, even if Spa is a long lap.

Also Albon wouldn't have beaten Norris in the race so it wasn't like Albon came through the pack and beat all the midfield.

I'm giving him a couple more races but I bet he turns out to be as slow as a sack of potatoes.
That qualifying performance was NOT indicative of his overall pace. Look at his speed down the straights. He was losing massive amounts of time on the straights to Max; which suggests to me that they didn't even put the engine in qualifying mode. At least give him a qualifying session where he actually is trying to get the best position he can. Jeez what an unreasonable assessment.
You seem to have ignored the part where I said I am giving him another couple of races to make an assessment but the writing is on the wall for sure.
I don't know what you were watching but I saw a young driver in his rookie season and in a new car mid-season for the first time starting at the back. He calmly worked his way up through the field; showing both patience and aggression where needed and he finished the race as high up as could possibly be expected of him. For me it was a grade A performance and the qualifying piece is totally irrelevant as he knew he was starting from the back and did not actually try to qualify as quickly as possible. How you walk away from that feeling like "the writing is on the wall" that he's not good enough is completely beyond me.
All true points, BUT… Kvyat's take on the situation are also fact.
IDK if this means Shots Fired or not, but I find his assessment of the race to be accurate.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/kvyat-on- ... ood-start/
HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: LECLERC :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8140
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by Exediron »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:I hate to say it but that looked pretty poor from Albon. Yes, he's probably a bit better than Gasly but he needs to be a significant improvement over him. I can't see Red Bull challenging for second in the Constructors Cup. It's not Albon's job to finish 6th like someone above said, his job is to be in the mix and at least beat the Ferrari's when Red Bull's car is the first or second fastest car at the track, (yes RB may be the third best car overall but they are not third fastest car at every circuit).

If Albon is well off Max in Monza and Singapore, then I am finished with him as far as thinking he has what it takes at this level. We know it is possible to lose slightly to Max, as Dan showed over the last season or so; and Albon and co. need to be perhaps slightly further away from Max than Dan managed. Instead these guys are way off Max and I don't buy the idea that he wasn't trying that hard in qualifying due to the grid penalty, 0.9 seconds off Max in Q1 and 1.7 seconds off in Q2, that is pretty big, even if Spa is a long lap.

Also Albon wouldn't have beaten Norris in the race so it wasn't like Albon came through the pack and beat all the midfield.

I'm giving him a couple more races but I bet he turns out to be as slow as a sack of potatoes.
That qualifying performance was NOT indicative of his overall pace. Look at his speed down the straights. He was losing massive amounts of time on the straights to Max; which suggests to me that they didn't even put the engine in qualifying mode. At least give him a qualifying session where he actually is trying to get the best position he can. Jeez what an unreasonable assessment.
You seem to have ignored the part where I said I am giving him another couple of races to make an assessment but the writing is on the wall for sure.
I don't know what you were watching but I saw a young driver in his rookie season and in a new car mid-season for the first time starting at the back. He calmly worked his way up through the field; showing both patience and aggression where needed and he finished the race as high up as could possibly be expected of him. For me it was a grade A performance and the qualifying piece is totally irrelevant as he knew he was starting from the back and did not actually try to qualify as quickly as possible. How you walk away from that feeling like "the writing is on the wall" that he's not good enough is completely beyond me.
All true points, BUT… Kvyat's take on the situation are also fact.
IDK if this means Shots Fired or not, but I find his assessment of the race to be accurate.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/kvyat-on- ... ood-start/
Yeah, I gotta agree with him. Albon's pace in the race wasn't impressive.

What was impressive, however - especially in comparison to Gasly - was his racecraft and willingness to make bold moves on track. That gives me hope that he'll grow into the seat in a way Gasly never did.
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

sandman1347
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by sandman1347 »

Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote: All true points, BUT… Kvyat's take on the situation are also fact.
IDK if this means Shots Fired or not, but I find his assessment of the race to be accurate.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/kvyat-on- ... ood-start/
Yeah, I gotta agree with him. Albon's pace in the race wasn't impressive.

What was impressive, however - especially in comparison to Gasly - was his racecraft and willingness to make bold moves on track. That gives me hope that he'll grow into the seat in a way Gasly never did.
Kvyatt sounds kinda salty to me. It doesn't matter how many laps Albon was stuck behind slower cars. What matters is that he finished ahead of them (all of them). it would have been easy for him to try to do too much in that race but he was extremely composed and professional and, like I mentioned earlier, he beat everyone out there other than the Ferrari and Mercedes drivers. What more can you ask for?

Junglist
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:15 am

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by Junglist »

sandman1347 wrote: Kvyatt sounds kinda salty to me. It doesn't matter how many laps Albon was stuck behind slower cars. What matters is that he finished ahead of them (all of them). it would have been easy for him to try to do too much in that race but he was extremely composed and professional and, like I mentioned earlier, he beat everyone out there other than the Ferrari and Mercedes drivers. What more can you ask for?
Win. Verstappen won in his first race...

I Think he did quite well for his first race with the senior team

F1 Racer
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by F1 Racer »

Does Albon need to finish ahead of Verstappen today, (barring any bad luck such as mechanical reliability or a crash with the other driver at fault), for it to be deemed a good result?

sandman1347
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by sandman1347 »

F1 Racer wrote:Does Albon need to finish ahead of Verstappen today, (barring any bad luck such as mechanical reliability or a crash with the other driver at fault), for it to be deemed a good result?
Barring bad luck or safety car bunching, yes.

F1 Racer
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by F1 Racer »

sandman1347 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:Does Albon need to finish ahead of Verstappen today, (barring any bad luck such as mechanical reliability or a crash with the other driver at fault), for it to be deemed a good result?
Barring bad luck or safety car bunching, yes.
Well he managed to finish ahead of Max, so not too bad a performance. Still a minute off the leaders though, (Gasly was getting slated for being lapped at the shorter Austria track that was just over a minute long), he got beaten by the Renault's and Max wasn't that far behind him considering Max started at the back and had an extra stop to make, (from his own error of course, but still, it's additional extra head start that Max gave him). The jury is still out, but he is looking like only a partial upgrade on Gasly at the moment, which of course is not really good enough because Gasly was hopeless.

He was unlucky to be the victim of a crowding off the track by Sainz, but I would say this is balanced a bit by the fact that he cut the corner when passing Magnussen.
Last edited by F1 Racer on Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JN23
Posts: 2398
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by JN23 »

F1 Racer wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:Does Albon need to finish ahead of Verstappen today, (barring any bad luck such as mechanical reliability or a crash with the other driver at fault), for it to be deemed a good result?
Barring bad luck or safety car bunching, yes.
Well he managed to finish ahead of Max, so not too bad a performance. Still a minute off the leaders though, (Gasly was getting slated for being lapped at the shorter Austria track that was just over a minute long), he got beaten by the Renault's and Max wasn't that far behind him considering Max started at the back and had an extra stop to make, (from his own error of course, but still, it's additional extra head start that Max gave him). The jury is still out, but he is looking like only a partial upgrade on Gasly at the moment, which of course is not really good enough because Gasly was hopeless.
The Red Bull at Austria > the Red Bull at Monza though.

F1 Racer
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by F1 Racer »

JN23 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:Does Albon need to finish ahead of Verstappen today, (barring any bad luck such as mechanical reliability or a crash with the other driver at fault), for it to be deemed a good result?
Barring bad luck or safety car bunching, yes.
Well he managed to finish ahead of Max, so not too bad a performance. Still a minute off the leaders though, (Gasly was getting slated for being lapped at the shorter Austria track that was just over a minute long), he got beaten by the Renault's and Max wasn't that far behind him considering Max started at the back and had an extra stop to make, (from his own error of course, but still, it's additional extra head start that Max gave him). The jury is still out, but he is looking like only a partial upgrade on Gasly at the moment, which of course is not really good enough because Gasly was hopeless.
The Red Bull at Austria > the Red Bull at Monza though.
Yeah of course, hence why he is a partial upgrade on someone who was really bad.

JN23
Posts: 2398
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by JN23 »

F1 Racer wrote:
JN23 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:Does Albon need to finish ahead of Verstappen today, (barring any bad luck such as mechanical reliability or a crash with the other driver at fault), for it to be deemed a good result?
Barring bad luck or safety car bunching, yes.
Well he managed to finish ahead of Max, so not too bad a performance. Still a minute off the leaders though, (Gasly was getting slated for being lapped at the shorter Austria track that was just over a minute long), he got beaten by the Renault's and Max wasn't that far behind him considering Max started at the back and had an extra stop to make, (from his own error of course, but still, it's additional extra head start that Max gave him). The jury is still out, but he is looking like only a partial upgrade on Gasly at the moment, which of course is not really good enough because Gasly was hopeless.
The Red Bull at Austria > the Red Bull at Monza though.
Yeah of course, hence why he is a partial upgrade on someone who was really bad.
I think you're being a bit harsh.

User avatar
Mercedes-Benz
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:02 am
Location: India

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

Albon should have beat the Renault's. Those 5secs penalty did not help. Max was only 15secs behind him but still I think he is doing much better job than Gasly so far
Sir Stirling Moss "Quite frankly, Kimi Raikkonen is the fastest driver in the world"

F1 Racer
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by F1 Racer »

JN23 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
JN23 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Well he managed to finish ahead of Max, so not too bad a performance. Still a minute off the leaders though, (Gasly was getting slated for being lapped at the shorter Austria track that was just over a minute long), he got beaten by the Renault's and Max wasn't that far behind him considering Max started at the back and had an extra stop to make, (from his own error of course, but still, it's additional extra head start that Max gave him). The jury is still out, but he is looking like only a partial upgrade on Gasly at the moment, which of course is not really good enough because Gasly was hopeless.
The Red Bull at Austria > the Red Bull at Monza though.
Yeah of course, hence why he is a partial upgrade on someone who was really bad.
I think you're being a bit harsh.
Time will tell but I really think Max would have beaten him here if he hadn't damaged his car on the first lap and needed an extra pit stop.

TheGiantHogweed
Posts: 2818
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Mercedes-Benz wrote:Albon should have beat the Renault's. Those 5secs penalty did not help. Max was only 15secs behind him but still I think he is doing much better job than Gasly so far
I still think Red Bull should have gone for Kvyat though. Again, Albon barely looked quicker than him. Kvyat was lucky to pit when he did but he came out in 6th and probably will have had a good result from there. Albon didn't impress me today. Kvyat had to retire, but his start was excellent. Same as last week. Kvyat is more experienced, I know that, but he does seem to look better given the difference in the car.

mikeyg123
Posts: 17838
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:Albon should have beat the Renault's. Those 5secs penalty did not help. Max was only 15secs behind him but still I think he is doing much better job than Gasly so far
I still think Red Bull should have gone for Kvyat though. Again, Albon barely looked quicker than him. Kvyat was lucky to pit when he did but he came out in 6th and probably will have had a good result from there. Albon didn't impress me today. Kvyat had to retire, but his start was excellent. Same as last week. Kvyat is more experienced, I know that, but he does seem to look better given the difference in the car.
Perhaps the Red Bull isn't much quicker than the STR? Gasly hasn't lost loads of pace since making the move.

Albon needs to be judged in context really.

I can't see any logical reason for picking Kvyat over Albon.

F1 Racer
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by F1 Racer »

mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:Albon should have beat the Renault's. Those 5secs penalty did not help. Max was only 15secs behind him but still I think he is doing much better job than Gasly so far
I still think Red Bull should have gone for Kvyat though. Again, Albon barely looked quicker than him. Kvyat was lucky to pit when he did but he came out in 6th and probably will have had a good result from there. Albon didn't impress me today. Kvyat had to retire, but his start was excellent. Same as last week. Kvyat is more experienced, I know that, but he does seem to look better given the difference in the car.
Perhaps the Red Bull isn't much quicker than the STR? Gasly hasn't lost loads of pace since making the move.

Albon needs to be judged in context really.

I can't see any logical reason for picking Kvyat over Albon.
Max is driving the Red Bull much faster than the STR though, so the Red Bull car is clearly superior, and let's face it, pretty much every season in the past the Red Bull is quite a bit faster than the STR so there is no reason why this year would be any different.

Gasly looks clearly slower than Kyvat so far, and before this point I believe that Gasly's only barometer was Hartly who quite conceivably could have been really, really, really bad as he was able to make Gasly look ok and worthy of promotion to Red Bull.

mikeyg123
Posts: 17838
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:Albon should have beat the Renault's. Those 5secs penalty did not help. Max was only 15secs behind him but still I think he is doing much better job than Gasly so far
I still think Red Bull should have gone for Kvyat though. Again, Albon barely looked quicker than him. Kvyat was lucky to pit when he did but he came out in 6th and probably will have had a good result from there. Albon didn't impress me today. Kvyat had to retire, but his start was excellent. Same as last week. Kvyat is more experienced, I know that, but he does seem to look better given the difference in the car.
Perhaps the Red Bull isn't much quicker than the STR? Gasly hasn't lost loads of pace since making the move.

Albon needs to be judged in context really.

I can't see any logical reason for picking Kvyat over Albon.
Max is driving the Red Bull much faster than the STR though, so the Red Bull car is clearly superior, and let's face it, pretty much every season in the past the Red Bull is quite a bit faster than the STR so there is no reason why this year would be any different.

Gasly looks clearly slower than Kyvat so far, and before this point I believe that Gasly's only barometer was Hartly who quite conceivably could have been really, really, really bad as he was able to make Gasly look ok and worthy of promotion to Red Bull.
I think it's conceivable that Max is much faster than any of the other Red Bull drivers.

sandman1347
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by sandman1347 »

Mercedes-Benz wrote:Albon should have beat the Renault's. Those 5secs penalty did not help. Max was only 15secs behind him but still I think he is doing much better job than Gasly so far
Based on what? For me, Renault had the better horse for the course. Let's see how Alex does at Singapore. That is a circuit where Red Bull should be no worse than second best. It's also a circuit where the driver can make a massive impact. Last year Hamilton, Alonso and Verstappen all had 7 tenths on their teammates in qualifying at Singapore. Let's see how Alex does there. Any gap between him and Max will be exacerbated there.

In truth; Japan is the race I have my eye on to evaluate Alex in the Red Bull. Give him a few rounds to get up to speed for the love of god.

Option or Prime
Posts: 1928
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Location: UK

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by Option or Prime »

mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:Albon should have beat the Renault's. Those 5secs penalty did not help. Max was only 15secs behind him but still I think he is doing much better job than Gasly so far
I still think Red Bull should have gone for Kvyat though. Again, Albon barely looked quicker than him. Kvyat was lucky to pit when he did but he came out in 6th and probably will have had a good result from there. Albon didn't impress me today. Kvyat had to retire, but his start was excellent. Same as last week. Kvyat is more experienced, I know that, but he does seem to look better given the difference in the car.
Perhaps the Red Bull isn't much quicker than the STR? Gasly hasn't lost loads of pace since making the move.

Albon needs to be judged in context really.

I can't see any logical reason for picking Kvyat over Albon.
Max is driving the Red Bull much faster than the STR though, so the Red Bull car is clearly superior, and let's face it, pretty much every season in the past the Red Bull is quite a bit faster than the STR so there is no reason why this year would be any different.

Gasly looks clearly slower than Kyvat so far, and before this point I believe that Gasly's only barometer was Hartly who quite conceivably could have been really, really, really bad as he was able to make Gasly look ok and worthy of promotion to Red Bull.
I think it's conceivable that Max is much faster than any of the other Red Bull drivers.
Only if he makes it past turn 1 though. :-P

F1 Racer
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by F1 Racer »

mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote: Perhaps the Red Bull isn't much quicker than the STR? Gasly hasn't lost loads of pace since making the move.

Albon needs to be judged in context really.

I can't see any logical reason for picking Kvyat over Albon.
Max is driving the Red Bull much faster than the STR though, so the Red Bull car is clearly superior, and let's face it, pretty much every season in the past the Red Bull is quite a bit faster than the STR so there is no reason why this year would be any different.

Gasly looks clearly slower than Kyvat so far, and before this point I believe that Gasly's only barometer was Hartly who quite conceivably could have been really, really, really bad as he was able to make Gasly look ok and worthy of promotion to Red Bull.
I think it's conceivable that Max is much faster than any of the other Red Bull drivers.
Which means they are all very bad as Max was only a bit faster than Danny Ric.

Max is brilliant, but not superhuman, so the main reason for there being such a big gap is down to the others not being up to scratch.

User avatar
Mercedes-Benz
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:02 am
Location: India

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:Albon should have beat the Renault's. Those 5secs penalty did not help. Max was only 15secs behind him but still I think he is doing much better job than Gasly so far
Based on what? For me, Renault had the better horse for the course. Let's see how Alex does at Singapore. That is a circuit where Red Bull should be no worse than second best. It's also a circuit where the driver can make a massive impact. Last year Hamilton, Alonso and Verstappen all had 7 tenths on their teammates in qualifying at Singapore. Let's see how Alex does there. Any gap between him and Max will be exacerbated there.

In truth; Japan is the race I have my eye on to evaluate Alex in the Red Bull. Give him a few rounds to get up to speed for the love of god.
Considering Kvyat was having a solid race again in STR and Max also said the pace was very good in clear air.
Sir Stirling Moss "Quite frankly, Kimi Raikkonen is the fastest driver in the world"

sandman1347
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by sandman1347 »

Mercedes-Benz wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:Albon should have beat the Renault's. Those 5secs penalty did not help. Max was only 15secs behind him but still I think he is doing much better job than Gasly so far
Based on what? For me, Renault had the better horse for the course. Let's see how Alex does at Singapore. That is a circuit where Red Bull should be no worse than second best. It's also a circuit where the driver can make a massive impact. Last year Hamilton, Alonso and Verstappen all had 7 tenths on their teammates in qualifying at Singapore. Let's see how Alex does there. Any gap between him and Max will be exacerbated there.

In truth; Japan is the race I have my eye on to evaluate Alex in the Red Bull. Give him a few rounds to get up to speed for the love of god.
Considering Kvyat was having a solid race again in STR and Max also said the pace was very good in clear air.
Yet none of them were anywhere near the Renualt. Renault out-performed them in qualifying too. Renault also had significantly better straight line speed (which is king here). To say that Albon should have beaten them is just a lazy assumption that the Red Bull must have been better.

F1 Racer
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by F1 Racer »

sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:Albon should have beat the Renault's. Those 5secs penalty did not help. Max was only 15secs behind him but still I think he is doing much better job than Gasly so far
Based on what? For me, Renault had the better horse for the course. Let's see how Alex does at Singapore. That is a circuit where Red Bull should be no worse than second best. It's also a circuit where the driver can make a massive impact. Last year Hamilton, Alonso and Verstappen all had 7 tenths on their teammates in qualifying at Singapore. Let's see how Alex does there. Any gap between him and Max will be exacerbated there.

In truth; Japan is the race I have my eye on to evaluate Alex in the Red Bull. Give him a few rounds to get up to speed for the love of god.
Considering Kvyat was having a solid race again in STR and Max also said the pace was very good in clear air.
Yet none of them were anywhere near the Renualt. Renault out-performed them in qualifying too. Renault also had significantly better straight line speed (which is king here). To say that Albon should have beaten them is just a lazy assumption that the Red Bull must have been better.
The Red Bull was definitely better. Max would have outqualified both of the Renaults and beaten them comfortably if it wasn't for his engine penalty.

The Renault's weren't that fast here, they were still well off the lead pace.

sandman1347
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by sandman1347 »

F1 Racer wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:Albon should have beat the Renault's. Those 5secs penalty did not help. Max was only 15secs behind him but still I think he is doing much better job than Gasly so far
Based on what? For me, Renault had the better horse for the course. Let's see how Alex does at Singapore. That is a circuit where Red Bull should be no worse than second best. It's also a circuit where the driver can make a massive impact. Last year Hamilton, Alonso and Verstappen all had 7 tenths on their teammates in qualifying at Singapore. Let's see how Alex does there. Any gap between him and Max will be exacerbated there.

In truth; Japan is the race I have my eye on to evaluate Alex in the Red Bull. Give him a few rounds to get up to speed for the love of god.
Considering Kvyat was having a solid race again in STR and Max also said the pace was very good in clear air.
Yet none of them were anywhere near the Renualt. Renault out-performed them in qualifying too. Renault also had significantly better straight line speed (which is king here). To say that Albon should have beaten them is just a lazy assumption that the Red Bull must have been better.
The Red Bull was definitely better. Max would have outqualified both of the Renaults and beaten them comfortably if it wasn't for his engine penalty.

The Renault's weren't that fast here, they were still well off the lead pace.
Says you. There is no evidence of that. It's just an assertion.

User avatar
Mercedes-Benz
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:02 am
Location: India

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:Albon should have beat the Renault's. Those 5secs penalty did not help. Max was only 15secs behind him but still I think he is doing much better job than Gasly so far
Based on what? For me, Renault had the better horse for the course. Let's see how Alex does at Singapore. That is a circuit where Red Bull should be no worse than second best. It's also a circuit where the driver can make a massive impact. Last year Hamilton, Alonso and Verstappen all had 7 tenths on their teammates in qualifying at Singapore. Let's see how Alex does there. Any gap between him and Max will be exacerbated there.

In truth; Japan is the race I have my eye on to evaluate Alex in the Red Bull. Give him a few rounds to get up to speed for the love of god.
Considering Kvyat was having a solid race again in STR and Max also said the pace was very good in clear air.
Yet none of them were anywhere near the Renualt. Renault out-performed them in qualifying too. Renault also had significantly better straight line speed (which is king here). To say that Albon should have beaten them is just a lazy assumption that the Red Bull must have been better.
I do not think so. If you consider that he lost 5secs due to penalty. Sainz ruthlessly pushed him out of track. I think he lost at least 3-4secs there as well. Getting rid of marbles takes some corners as well. Hulk was only 1sec ahead and Ricciardo was 14secs but he pitted under VSC. So if you add up everything there is no reason why a RBR should be behind a midfield team.

Driving a RBR P6 is bare minimum. If he cannot do this then they should drop him as well
Last edited by Mercedes-Benz on Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sir Stirling Moss "Quite frankly, Kimi Raikkonen is the fastest driver in the world"

Paolo_Lasardi
Posts: 2570
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 2:04 pm

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Albon : Verstappen 2 : 0
;)
(just joking, of course)

kleefton
Posts: 4009
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by kleefton »

Mercedes-Benz wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:Albon should have beat the Renault's. Those 5secs penalty did not help. Max was only 15secs behind him but still I think he is doing much better job than Gasly so far
Based on what? For me, Renault had the better horse for the course. Let's see how Alex does at Singapore. That is a circuit where Red Bull should be no worse than second best. It's also a circuit where the driver can make a massive impact. Last year Hamilton, Alonso and Verstappen all had 7 tenths on their teammates in qualifying at Singapore. Let's see how Alex does there. Any gap between him and Max will be exacerbated there.

In truth; Japan is the race I have my eye on to evaluate Alex in the Red Bull. Give him a few rounds to get up to speed for the love of god.
Considering Kvyat was having a solid race again in STR and Max also said the pace was very good in clear air.
Yet none of them were anywhere near the Renualt. Renault out-performed them in qualifying too. Renault also had significantly better straight line speed (which is king here). To say that Albon should have beaten them is just a lazy assumption that the Red Bull must have been better.
I do not think so. If you consider that he lost 5secs due to penalty. Sainz ruthlessly pushed him out of track. I think he lost at least 3-4secs there as well. Getting rid of marbles takes some corners as well. Hulk was only 1sec ahead and Ricciardo was 14secs but he pitted under VSC. So if you add up everything there is no reason why a RBR should be behind a midfield team.

Driving a RBR P6 is bare minimum. If he cannot do this then they should drop him as well
The Redbull did look a bit weak at this track. Max was stuck behind a Racing point for how many laps and never got by and he was running the latest spec Honda PU. It did look like they were out of their element here and lacked straight line speed. Albon did a solid job i thought, when everything considered.

Honda still struggles with deployment it seems, on tracks that demand a fair amount of deployment they absolutely struggle.

pokerman
Posts: 35345
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:Albon should have beat the Renault's. Those 5secs penalty did not help. Max was only 15secs behind him but still I think he is doing much better job than Gasly so far
I still think Red Bull should have gone for Kvyat though. Again, Albon barely looked quicker than him. Kvyat was lucky to pit when he did but he came out in 6th and probably will have had a good result from there. Albon didn't impress me today. Kvyat had to retire, but his start was excellent. Same as last week. Kvyat is more experienced, I know that, but he does seem to look better given the difference in the car.
Perhaps the Red Bull isn't much quicker than the STR? Gasly hasn't lost loads of pace since making the move.

Albon needs to be judged in context really.

I can't see any logical reason for picking Kvyat over Albon.
Max is driving the Red Bull much faster than the STR though, so the Red Bull car is clearly superior, and let's face it, pretty much every season in the past the Red Bull is quite a bit faster than the STR so there is no reason why this year would be any different.

Gasly looks clearly slower than Kyvat so far, and before this point I believe that Gasly's only barometer was Hartly who quite conceivably could have been really, really, really bad as he was able to make Gasly look ok and worthy of promotion to Red Bull.
I think it's conceivable that Max is much faster than any of the other Red Bull drivers.
I think that's probably a fact.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
Posts: 35345
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by pokerman »

F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote: Perhaps the Red Bull isn't much quicker than the STR? Gasly hasn't lost loads of pace since making the move.

Albon needs to be judged in context really.

I can't see any logical reason for picking Kvyat over Albon.
Max is driving the Red Bull much faster than the STR though, so the Red Bull car is clearly superior, and let's face it, pretty much every season in the past the Red Bull is quite a bit faster than the STR so there is no reason why this year would be any different.

Gasly looks clearly slower than Kyvat so far, and before this point I believe that Gasly's only barometer was Hartly who quite conceivably could have been really, really, really bad as he was able to make Gasly look ok and worthy of promotion to Red Bull.
I think it's conceivable that Max is much faster than any of the other Red Bull drivers.
Which means they are all very bad as Max was only a bit faster than Danny Ric.

Max is brilliant, but not superhuman, so the main reason for there being such a big gap is down to the others not being up to scratch.
Ricciardo may be the 3rd fastest driver in F1?
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Option or Prime
Posts: 1928
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Location: UK

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by Option or Prime »

3rd or 4th? Who is 4th then out of Hamilton, Verstappen, Leclerc and Ricciardo.

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8140
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by Exediron »

Option or Prime wrote:3rd or 4th? Who is 4th then out of Hamilton, Verstappen, Leclerc and Ricciardo.
In terms of outright speed, I'd say Ricciardo. But he's a more finished product than Leclerc right now.
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

pokerman
Posts: 35345
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by pokerman »

Option or Prime wrote:3rd or 4th? Who is 4th then out of Hamilton, Verstappen, Leclerc and Ricciardo.
It's between Ricciardo and Leclerc.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

User avatar
Mercedes-Benz
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:02 am
Location: India

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

kleefton wrote:
The Redbull did look a bit weak at this track. Max was stuck behind a Racing point for how many laps and never got by and he was running the latest spec Honda PU. It did look like they were out of their element here and lacked straight line speed. Albon did a solid job i thought, when everything considered.

Honda still struggles with deployment it seems, on tracks that demand a fair amount of deployment they absolutely struggle.
Max was happy about the pace. CH said the same thing. They were on par with Mercedes and Ferrari in clear air.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vers ... l/4535797/

IMO Kvyat is looking more impressive he was P7 at SPA and here in Monza again he did not forget to mention that he was ahead of Albon again and backed himself to finish ahead of him
Sir Stirling Moss "Quite frankly, Kimi Raikkonen is the fastest driver in the world"

F1 Racer
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by F1 Racer »

Albon is looking pretty darn slow to me. 0.6 seconds off Max is far too much.

User avatar
Jezza13
Posts: 2397
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 10:02 am
Location: Far side of Koozebane

Re: Albon versus Verstappen

Post by Jezza13 »

F1 Racer wrote:Albon is looking pretty darn slow to me. 0.6 seconds off Max is far too much.
Not when you think that Gasly qualified 0.9 behind Verstappen in Hungary. If you believe Horner & Marko, all Albon has to do is show he's closer to Verstappen than Gasly was to hold on to the gig next year & so far he's doing that.
Only took 7 yrs, 5 mths & 21 days.

Cooper, Arrows, Brabham, Ligier, Lotus, Tyrrell, Minardi, McLaren, Sauber, Williams,

Remember the garagista's. The heart & soul of F1. They raced to race.

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)

Post Reply