Albon versus Verstappen

[Kev627]

How will Albon's first race at Red Bull go? How do people think he will fare against his much more experienced team mate?

[F1 Racer]

He will likely be destroyed by Max. I think it will be good to see that as then Alonso has a slight chance at a Red Bull seat for 2020.

[sandman1347]

I think that he will eventually be a lot more competitive than Gasly was but probably not immediately. He has to adjust to the car and that's not easy mid-season when Max already has thousands of kilometers in that car.

[MistaVega23]

I predict an FP2 crash and on the backfoot for the rest of the weekend.

[Todd]

At some point Honda is going to insist on a driver of its own selection if Red Bull continues to refuse to use both cars to compete for second in the WCC.

[Option or Prime]

I predict an FP2 crash and on the backfoot for the rest of the weekend.

Inevitable that ALL new F1 drivers prang the new car more than once when they first get into it isn't it. How else do you find the limits?

[MistaVega23]

I predict an FP2 crash and on the backfoot for the rest of the weekend.

Inevitable that ALL new F1 drivers prang the new car more than once when they first get into it isn't it. How else do you find the limits?

At least he can put it down to inexperience of the RBR. Personally I hope he has a solid first weekend.

[M44]

Albon will hit in the ground running..

Within 2 tenths in Q3. Marginal on race pace differential.

[Exediron]

Albon will hit in the ground running..

Within 2 tenths in Q3. Marginal on race pace differential.

That's a bold prediction. You think Albon is as good as Ricciardo, a driver who beat Kvyat so badly he got kicked out of Red Bull? Albon has been roughly on par with Kvyat so far.

[Covalent]

Albon will hit in the ground running..

Within 2 tenths in Q3. Marginal on race pace differential.

That's a bold prediction. You think Albon is as good as Ricciardo, a driver who beat Kvyat so badly he got kicked out of Red Bull? Albon has been roughly on par with Kvyat so far.

That's not really accurate, he wasn't kicked out of Red Bull because he was beaten by Ricciardo but rather because he made some silly mistakes (in largely on single race). Up to that point he had the only podium of the year for the team, and beat Ricciardo in the points in the previous season.

[mikeyg123]

Albon will hit in the ground running..

Within 2 tenths in Q3. Marginal on race pace differential.

That's a bold prediction. You think Albon is as good as Ricciardo, a driver who beat Kvyat so badly he got kicked out of Red Bull? Albon has been roughly on par with Kvyat so far.

That's not really accurate, he wasn't kicked out of Red Bull because he was beaten by Ricciardo but rather because he made some silly mistakes (in largely on single race). Up to that point he had the only podium of the year for the team, and beat Ricciardo in the points in the previous season.

Well no, if he had been doing better than Ricciardo he wouldn't have got the push. He got demoted because Red Bull felt they had a better driver in the junior team.

[Covalent]

Albon will hit in the ground running..

Within 2 tenths in Q3. Marginal on race pace differential.

That's a bold prediction. You think Albon is as good as Ricciardo, a driver who beat Kvyat so badly he got kicked out of Red Bull? Albon has been roughly on par with Kvyat so far.

That's not really accurate, he wasn't kicked out of Red Bull because he was beaten by Ricciardo but rather because he made some silly mistakes (in largely on single race). Up to that point he had the only podium of the year for the team, and beat Ricciardo in the points in the previous season.

Well no, if he had been doing better than Ricciardo he wouldn't have got the push. He got demoted because Red Bull felt they had a better driver in the junior team.

Bad mistakes are bad mistakes regardless of what your teammate is doing.

[Exediron]

Albon will hit in the ground running..

Within 2 tenths in Q3. Marginal on race pace differential.

That's a bold prediction. You think Albon is as good as Ricciardo, a driver who beat Kvyat so badly he got kicked out of Red Bull? Albon has been roughly on par with Kvyat so far.

That's not really accurate, he wasn't kicked out of Red Bull because he was beaten by Ricciardo but rather because he made some silly mistakes (in largely on single race). Up to that point he had the only podium of the year for the team, and beat Ricciardo in the points in the previous season.

It is accurate. He outscored Ricciardo due to luck in 2015, and was being thrashed to the tune of about half a second per lap on average in 2016. His oft-mentioned podium came after Ricciardo had been leading the race but took a puncture: Ricciardo came back to finish right behind him anyway.

[mikeyg123]

Albon will hit in the ground running..

Within 2 tenths in Q3. Marginal on race pace differential.

That's a bold prediction. You think Albon is as good as Ricciardo, a driver who beat Kvyat so badly he got kicked out of Red Bull? Albon has been roughly on par with Kvyat so far.

That's not really accurate, he wasn't kicked out of Red Bull because he was beaten by Ricciardo but rather because he made some silly mistakes (in largely on single race). Up to that point he had the only podium of the year for the team, and beat Ricciardo in the points in the previous season.

Well no, if he had been doing better than Ricciardo he wouldn't have got the push. He got demoted because Red Bull felt they had a better driver in the junior team.

Bad mistakes are bad mistakes regardless of what your teammate is doing.

Yep but do we ever see a driver getting sacked for making bad mistake whilst beating their team mate? It doesn't happen.

[Covalent]

That's a bold prediction. You think Albon is as good as Ricciardo, a driver who beat Kvyat so badly he got kicked out of Red Bull? Albon has been roughly on par with Kvyat so far.

That's not really accurate, he wasn't kicked out of Red Bull because he was beaten by Ricciardo but rather because he made some silly mistakes (in largely on single race). Up to that point he had the only podium of the year for the team, and beat Ricciardo in the points in the previous season.

Well no, if he had been doing better than Ricciardo he wouldn't have got the push. He got demoted because Red Bull felt they had a better driver in the junior team.

Bad mistakes are bad mistakes regardless of what your teammate is doing.

Yep but do we ever see a driver getting sacked for making bad mistake whilst beating their team mate? It doesn't happen.

Trulli at Renault springs to mind. But yeah I get your point.

[Covalent]

Albon will hit in the ground running..

Within 2 tenths in Q3. Marginal on race pace differential.

That's a bold prediction. You think Albon is as good as Ricciardo, a driver who beat Kvyat so badly he got kicked out of Red Bull? Albon has been roughly on par with Kvyat so far.

That's not really accurate, he wasn't kicked out of Red Bull because he was beaten by Ricciardo but rather because he made some silly mistakes (in largely on single race). Up to that point he had the only podium of the year for the team, and beat Ricciardo in the points in the previous season.

It is accurate. He outscored Ricciardo due to luck in 2015, and was being thrashed to the tune of about half a second per lap on average in 2016. His oft-mentioned podium came after Ricciardo had been leading the race but took a puncture: Ricciardo came back to finish right behind him anyway.

So you're saying had he had a "normal" race (without hitting Vettel) in Sochi he'd have been sacked anyway?

[mikeyg123]

Albon will hit in the ground running..

Within 2 tenths in Q3. Marginal on race pace differential.

That's a bold prediction. You think Albon is as good as Ricciardo, a driver who beat Kvyat so badly he got kicked out of Red Bull? Albon has been roughly on par with Kvyat so far.

That's not really accurate, he wasn't kicked out of Red Bull because he was beaten by Ricciardo but rather because he made some silly mistakes (in largely on single race). Up to that point he had the only podium of the year for the team, and beat Ricciardo in the points in the previous season.

It is accurate. He outscored Ricciardo due to luck in 2015, and was being thrashed to the tune of about half a second per lap on average in 2016. His oft-mentioned podium came after Ricciardo had been leading the race but took a puncture: Ricciardo came back to finish right behind him anyway.

So you're saying had he had a "normal" race (without hitting Vettel) in Sochi he'd have been sacked anyway?

I think he would.

[Junglist]

Really interested to see how Albon stacks up. Hoping he does really well

[Alienturnedhuman]

Kyvat was sacked because Verstappen was better, not because he was performing badly. The first two races of 2016 used that really stupid elimination format in qualifying and it caught a lot of teams out (and I seem to remember Kyvat was very unexpected eliminated in Australia)

Yes he hit Vettel in Sochi - but at least he was in a position to hit Vettel in Sochi. Gasly would be punting out Grosjean and that really wouldn't have the same controversy.

Was Kyvat under performing - it's difficult to say conclusively although it's clear he wasn't at Ricciardo's level, however he was no where near as woeful as Gasly has been. Red Bull were looking for an excuse to create a space for Max in the main team, if they had Gasly and Albon as their Toro Rosso drivers in 2016 Kyvat would have still been driving for the main team in 2017.

[Covalent]

Kyvat was sacked because Verstappen was better, not because he was performing badly. The first two races of 2016 used that really stupid elimination format in qualifying and it caught a lot of teams out (and I seem to remember Kyvat was very unexpected eliminated in Australia)

Yes he hit Vettel in Sochi - but at least he was in a position to hit Vettel in Sochi. Gasly would be punting out Grosjean and that really wouldn't have the same controversy.

Was Kyvat under performing - it's difficult to say conclusively although it's clear he wasn't at Ricciardo's level, however he was no where near as woeful as Gasly has been. Red Bull were looking for an excuse to create a space for Max in the main team, if they had Gasly and Albon as their Toro Rosso drivers in 2016 Kyvat would have still been driving for the main team in 2017.

[M44]

Albon will hit in the ground running..

Within 2 tenths in Q3. Marginal on race pace differential.

That's a bold prediction. You think Albon is as good as Ricciardo, a driver who beat Kvyat so badly he got kicked out of Red Bull? Albon has been roughly on par with Kvyat so far.

Not at all Exediron - but one thought some blind optimism would lighten the predicament.

I think its a given that Albon will have a deficit to Verstappen - the question is whether Gasly beats Kvyat for me.

[pokerman]

At some point Honda is going to insist on a driver of its own selection if Red Bull continues to refuse to use both cars to compete for second in the WCC.

Good point at some point they may have to bite the bullet and employ a top 10 F1 driver if their juniors continue to get nowhere near Verstappen.

[pokerman]

Albon will hit in the ground running..

Within 2 tenths in Q3. Marginal on race pace differential.

So he hits the ground running at Ricciardo level, unlikely I would have thought?

[Jenson's Understeer]

He's going to be just as far back as Gasly was, if not further while he gets up to speed with the different car. I don't even think he'll ultimately end up any closer to Max than Pierre was.

[pokerman]

Albon will hit in the ground running..

Within 2 tenths in Q3. Marginal on race pace differential.

That's a bold prediction. You think Albon is as good as Ricciardo, a driver who beat Kvyat so badly he got kicked out of Red Bull? Albon has been roughly on par with Kvyat so far.

That's not really accurate, he wasn't kicked out of Red Bull because he was beaten by Ricciardo but rather because he made some silly mistakes (in largely on single race). Up to that point he had the only podium of the year for the team, and beat Ricciardo in the points in the previous season.

He was getting slaughtered by Ricciardo in qualifying and the podium was a bit of a fluke as several front running cars crashed/got damaged on the opening lap.

[pokerman]

Albon will hit in the ground running..

Within 2 tenths in Q3. Marginal on race pace differential.

That's a bold prediction. You think Albon is as good as Ricciardo, a driver who beat Kvyat so badly he got kicked out of Red Bull? Albon has been roughly on par with Kvyat so far.

That's not really accurate, he wasn't kicked out of Red Bull because he was beaten by Ricciardo but rather because he made some silly mistakes (in largely on single race). Up to that point he had the only podium of the year for the team, and beat Ricciardo in the points in the previous season.

Well no, if he had been doing better than Ricciardo he wouldn't have got the push. He got demoted because Red Bull felt they had a better driver in the junior team.

Bad mistakes are bad mistakes regardless of what your teammate is doing.

How was it a bad mistake replacing Kvyat with Verstappen, for starters Verstappen won the first race.

[Covalent]

That's a bold prediction. You think Albon is as good as Ricciardo, a driver who beat Kvyat so badly he got kicked out of Red Bull? Albon has been roughly on par with Kvyat so far.

That's not really accurate, he wasn't kicked out of Red Bull because he was beaten by Ricciardo but rather because he made some silly mistakes (in largely on single race). Up to that point he had the only podium of the year for the team, and beat Ricciardo in the points in the previous season.

Well no, if he had been doing better than Ricciardo he wouldn't have got the push. He got demoted because Red Bull felt they had a better driver in the junior team.

Bad mistakes are bad mistakes regardless of what your teammate is doing.

How was it a bad mistake replacing Kvyat with Verstappen, for starters Verstappen won the first race.

Indeed how was it, and who has said it was?

[pokerman]

He's going to be just as far back as Gasly was, if not further while he gets up to speed with the different car. I don't even think he'll ultimately end up any closer to Max than Pierre was.

This wouldn't surprise me either but hoping Albon can get much nearer, Albon actually has some good pedigree maybe better ultimate potential than the likes of Gasly?

[pokerman]

That's not really accurate, he wasn't kicked out of Red Bull because he was beaten by Ricciardo but rather because he made some silly mistakes (in largely on single race). Up to that point he had the only podium of the year for the team, and beat Ricciardo in the points in the previous season.

Well no, if he had been doing better than Ricciardo he wouldn't have got the push. He got demoted because Red Bull felt they had a better driver in the junior team.

Bad mistakes are bad mistakes regardless of what your teammate is doing.

How was it a bad mistake replacing Kvyat with Verstappen, for starters Verstappen won the first race.

Indeed how was it, and who has said it was?

Sorry I mistook that as saying it was a bad mistake by Red Bull.

[JN23]

If Albon ends up being as far away as Gasly was FROM Verstappen, then what is the conclusion?

We underrated Gasly when he was getting smashed by Verstappen, or they are both bottom end F1 drivers and Verstappen isn't doing anything special?

Or something else?

[Yellowbin74]

Hard to say - he won't match Max though.

Albon didn't exactly set the world alight in GP2 / F2.

[Yellowbin74]

Within 2 tenths in Q3. Marginal on race pace differential.[/quote]
That's a bold prediction. You think Albon is as good as Ricciardo, a driver who beat Kvyat so badly he got kicked out of Red Bull? Albon has been roughly on par with Kvyat so far.[/quote]
That's not really accurate, he wasn't kicked out of Red Bull because he was beaten by Ricciardo but rather because he made some silly mistakes (in largely on single race). Up to that point he had the only podium of the year for the team, and beat Ricciardo in the points in the previous season.[/quote]

Well no, if he had been doing better than Ricciardo he wouldn't have got the push. He got demoted because Red Bull felt they had a better driver in the junior team.[/quote]
Bad mistakes are bad mistakes regardless of what your teammate is doing.[/quote]
How was it a bad mistake replacing Kvyat with Verstappen, for starters Verstappen won the first race.[/quote]

If I recall correctly (no guarantees!), didn't Dan get hung out to dry on strategy on this one?

I'm not saying that Max wouldn't have won it, or didn't deserve the victory, but I can't help but feel that RB wanted Max to win that to get the record of youngest winner.

[pokerman]

If Albon ends up being as far away as Gasly was FROM Verstappen, then what is the conclusion?

We underrated Gasly when he was getting smashed by Verstappen, or they are both bottom end F1 drivers and Verstappen isn't doing anything special?

Or something else?

I think it's something inbetween, they don't expect the drivers to be as quick as Verstappen but 5 tenths is too much, 3 tenths I think they would except?

Obviously then in respect to Gasly they're seeing him as a bottom end F1 driver.

[mikeyg123]

If Albon ends up being as far away as Gasly was FROM Verstappen, then what is the conclusion?

We underrated Gasly when he was getting smashed by Verstappen, or they are both bottom end F1 drivers and Verstappen isn't doing anything special?

Or something else?

I think it's something inbetween, they don't expect the drivers to be as quick as Verstappen but 5 tenths is too much, 3 tenths I think they would except?

Obviously then in respect to Gasly they're seeing him as a bottom end F1 driver.

It's not quali that's the issue so much it's how far he was falling back in races. He was lapped in 2 out of the last 4 races by his team mate. I mean, Kubica is getting some criticism but he isn't getting lapped by Russell. Albon's task will be to beat the midfield. If he can always finish ahead of everyone but the Mercedes, the Ferrari's and Verstappen then I think that will be regarded as enough for a go in 2020. If he fails in that, and if Kvyat doesn't smash Gasly then I think they will look outside the program.

[pokerman]

Hard to say - he won't match Max though.

Albon didn't exactly set the world alight in GP2 / F2.

Leclerc was teammates with Albon in GP3, ask Leclerc how good Albon is, Norris had a picture of Albon on his bedroom wall during their karting years a period of time were Albon got picked up by Red Bull.

Fair enough when Albon started in cars he lost his way and got dropped by Red Bull but the last few years he's been on the way back, he took Leclerc down to the wire in GP3. In GP2 he started quite well but then broke his collar bone in a mountain bike accident which derailed his season, the following year he very much was mixing it at the front with Russell and Norris both now quite highly rated in F1.

This year he's held his own against Kvyat that's not always a gimme for a rookie and done well enough to replace Gasly, so let's see?

[pokerman]

If I recall correctly (no guarantees!), didn't Dan get hung out to dry on strategy on this one?

I'm not saying that Max wouldn't have won it, or didn't deserve the victory, but I can't help but feel that RB wanted Max to win that to get the record of youngest winner.

Yes Verstappen was a bit lucky to win but what was impressive about him was how he was able to keep pace with the leaders, he was only 1 second behind Ricciardo before he was sent down the strategy rabbit hole.

[A.J.]

He will likely be destroyed by Max. I think it will be good to see that as then Alonso has a slight chance at a Red Bull seat for 2020.

No chance. Not even a slight one.

That bridge has been burned and had its foundation demolished by Alonso - first by his comments on how badly RBR wasnted him to drive for them, and then by his public humiliation of Honda. The Japanese don't take kindly to public humiliation - they wouldn't sell him a Civic now, let alone have him drive for them.

[pokerman]

If Albon ends up being as far away as Gasly was FROM Verstappen, then what is the conclusion?

We underrated Gasly when he was getting smashed by Verstappen, or they are both bottom end F1 drivers and Verstappen isn't doing anything special?

Or something else?

I think it's something inbetween, they don't expect the drivers to be as quick as Verstappen but 5 tenths is too much, 3 tenths I think they would except?

Obviously then in respect to Gasly they're seeing him as a bottom end F1 driver.

It's not quali that's the issue so much it's how far he was falling back in races. He was lapped in 2 out of the last 4 races by his team mate. I mean, Kubica is getting some criticism but he isn't getting lapped by Russell. Albon's task will be to beat the midfield. If he can always finish ahead of everyone but the Mercedes, the Ferrari's and Verstappen then I think that will be regarded as enough for a go in 2020. If he fails in that, and if Kvyat doesn't smash Gasly then I think they will look outside the program.

In part but still qualifying poorly in junction with poor starts has seen slower cars getting past him and then that's were his races have often unravalled.

[mikeyg123]

If Albon ends up being as far away as Gasly was FROM Verstappen, then what is the conclusion?

We underrated Gasly when he was getting smashed by Verstappen, or they are both bottom end F1 drivers and Verstappen isn't doing anything special?

Or something else?

I think it's something inbetween, they don't expect the drivers to be as quick as Verstappen but 5 tenths is too much, 3 tenths I think they would except?

Obviously then in respect to Gasly they're seeing him as a bottom end F1 driver.

It's not quali that's the issue so much it's how far he was falling back in races. He was lapped in 2 out of the last 4 races by his team mate. I mean, Kubica is getting some criticism but he isn't getting lapped by Russell. Albon's task will be to beat the midfield. If he can always finish ahead of everyone but the Mercedes, the Ferrari's and Verstappen then I think that will be regarded as enough for a go in 2020. If he fails in that, and if Kvyat doesn't smash Gasly then I think they will look outside the program.

In part but still qualifying poorly in junction with poor starts has seen slower cars getting past him and then that's were his races have often unravalled.

It hasn't helped but he hasn't had any pace when he's been in among them in the race either. If he had the pace he'd have been able to fight his way out of the midfield after a poor start.

[F1 Racer]

I think it's something inbetween, they don't expect the drivers to be as quick as Verstappen but 5 tenths is too much, 3 tenths I think they would except?

Obviously then in respect to Gasly they're seeing him as a bottom end F1 driver.

It's not quali that's the issue so much it's how far he was falling back in races. He was lapped in 2 out of the last 4 races by his team mate. I mean, Kubica is getting some criticism but he isn't getting lapped by Russell. Albon's task will be to beat the midfield. If he can always finish ahead of everyone but the Mercedes, the Ferrari's and Verstappen then I think that will be regarded as enough for a go in 2020. If he fails in that, and if Kvyat doesn't smash Gasly then I think they will look outside the program.

Firstly it's not just the races where the issue was, it was also qualifying. A slow driver in qualifying is usually slow in the race too and Gasly was really bad at both.

As for your assertion that all Albon has to do is bring the car home in 6th and not challenge the likes of Bottas and the Ferrari's and he will be kept for 2020 then you are wrong. Horner said of Gasly's Hungary race ''We are racing Saubers and McLarens when we should be racing Mercedes and Ferrari''. He expects both cars to be battling at the front and Albon needs to do this, even if he is a bit slower than Verstappen. He ideally needs to be close enough to Max to outqualify him from time to time.

If all Horner wanted was someone to bring the car home in 6th then Gasly was capable of doing this, as Gasly is 6th in the WDC and likely would have finished there. He wasn't fast enough to be 6th at every single race but on average he likely should have been able to secure 6th place in the WDC yet this still would have been an appallingly bad level of performance. So Albon needs to do way better than this and actually become a useful and relevant factor in the race at the sharp end. The Ferrari's were over a minute behind in Hungary so Albon will be expected to easily beat the Ferrari's on tracks where the Ferrari is poor.