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Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?
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Author:  -K- [ Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Not for me.

I would first look at drivers who have won WDCs with more than one team, which puts in Schumacher, Hamilton, Prost, Fangio, Graham Hill (being the only holder of the triple crown would help his case for inclusion), Lauda. Then there is Senna who probably would have done had it not been for his tragic end. I have probably missed some as I haven’t considered a list of greats in detail, but it doesn’t seem that 10 would be hard to get to.

Didn’t Vettel move to Ferrari as he wanted to achieve that? No title in 5 years isn’t looking great, though Ferrari haven’t always put out a great car. I’m not sure that 4 successive titles including first title will be achieved by anyone else, but this is all that sticks out to me at the moment.

Author:  Todd [ Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

pokerman wrote:
Schumacher had to be considered past his prime being 40+ years and out of F1 for 3 years, Vettel is still very much in his prime, he's 2 years younger than Hamilton.


He broke his neck on a racing bike and was too old to heal. He came back to develop the Mercedes F1 car, which he did. Saying that this act of loyalty to Mercedes elevates Nico or Hamilton is absurd.

Driver identity confusion edited by Mod

Author:  Todd [ Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

-K- wrote:
Not for me.

I would first look at drivers who have won WDCs with more than one team, which puts in Schumacher, Hamilton, Prost, Fangio, Graham Hill (being the only holder of the triple crown would help his case for inclusion), Lauda. Then there is Senna who probably would have done had it not been for his tragic end. I have probably missed some as I haven’t considered a list of greats in detail, but it doesn’t seem that 10 would be hard to get to.

Didn’t Vettel move to Ferrari as he wanted to achieve that? No title in 5 years isn’t looking great, though Ferrari haven’t always put out a great car. I’m not sure that 4 successive titles including first title will be achieved by anyone else, but this is all that sticks out to me at the moment.


Winning WDCs with more than one car doesn't mean that much when others win WDCs with the same teams. Schumacher won with Benetton, which nobody else ever came close to doing. Vettel won with RedBull, which has also eluded other drivers. Hamilton? McLaren? You're there to win the title at a canter. Mercedes? Nico Rosberg beat him to the title in the same car. If Hamilton deserves inclusion in any list of exceptional F1 drivers based on numbers, questioning Vettel's place is all about jingoism.

Author:  pokerman [ Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Blake wrote:
let me preface my comments with a reminder that I am already on record saying that Seb is not one of the all-time greats. However, I find it interesting that some are using this year as "proof" that he shouldn't make their list. Leclerc, for all of his promise, can hardly be considered greater than Vettel, in my opinion. Nor can I put Max there at this time of his career. It seems as though Vettel's history (4W WDCs is not insignificant...even if he was in great cars during that time) is being dismissed in favor of 2018-19. If one is going to do that, then, should Hamilton's place in history be judged on his less than stellar year as well? Schumi rated on his three post-first retirement period (OK.. granted, some have done that too).

Again, I don't rate Vettel as one of the top 10 best drivers, but I do think I am seeing some reasons based more on biases and a bit of hypocrisy.

It's not using this year against Leclerc as proof that Vettel should not be on the list it's weighing up all his years, as of yet Leclerc hasn't even beaten Vettel which was already explained to you but still you want to cycle it around.

Also it's not a simple case of who scores the most points between teammates in any particular season, faster teammates sometimes score less points for a multitude of reasons.

Hamilton finished behind Button in 2011 but did he look like he struggled for ultimate speed, that would be a no.

Vettel finished behind Ricciardo in 2014, did he look like he was struggling for ultimate speed, that would be a yes.

Did Ricciardo struggle against Verstappen, that would be another yes, it's forming an understanding of the pecking order of the drivers and if you view Vettel as not even in the top 3 of the present drives that how does he make the top 10 ATG list?

Back to Hamilton that you seemingly want to paint as being no better than Vettel in past failures as far as I can see, in the past 6 years he's always been rated in the top 2, some would have him as the #1 driver, that's the level I would say you need to be at amongst your peer group to be in consideration as a top 10 ATG and then you can throw in the 5/6 titles to cement that even more.

In respect to Schumacher at 40+ years he gets a pass as being past his prime.

If it's merely about titles then of course Vettel makes the list but you yourself said it's not about titles when you put Moss on your list.

Author:  pokerman [ Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
In defence of Vettel, his four straight WDCs pretty much cement him in F1 history. Even if one argues the benefit of the car at the time, there were two drivers in that team and the other one did not manage a single title.
His more recent form has not hit the peaks but does this really imply that he was never that great, or has he just dropped off from his own peak? Does that taint his legacy? Not the same scenario but Schumacher's return did not go particularly well. He is still viewed as an all time great (yes, seven titles versus four).

I do think there is a balance between titles and your standing amongst your peers, Jack Brabham won 3 titles but never gets any kind of look in.


Actually Jack Brabham won 5 titles: 3 wdc + 2 wcc.

I don't believe that's how it works otherwise Bottas has 2 titles himself with a third coming sometime later this season.

Author:  pokerman [ Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Off topic post removed by mod.

Author:  Exediron [ Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Off topic post removed by mod.

Author:  tootsie323 [ Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
In defence of Vettel, his four straight WDCs pretty much cement him in F1 history. Even if one argues the benefit of the car at the time, there were two drivers in that team and the other one did not manage a single title.
His more recent form has not hit the peaks but does this really imply that he was never that great, or has he just dropped off from his own peak? Does that taint his legacy? Not the same scenario but Schumacher's return did not go particularly well. He is still viewed as an all time great (yes, seven titles versus four).

I do think there is a balance between titles and your standing amongst your peers, Jack Brabham won 3 titles but never gets any kind of look in.


Actually Jack Brabham won 5 titles: 3 wdc + 2 wcc.

I don't believe that's how it works otherwise Bottas has 2 titles himself with a third coming sometime later this season.

Am I missing something? Wasn't Jack Brabham an F1 team owner? I'm pretty sure that Bottas isn't.

Author:  Paolo_Lasardi [ Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
In defence of Vettel, his four straight WDCs pretty much cement him in F1 history. Even if one argues the benefit of the car at the time, there were two drivers in that team and the other one did not manage a single title.
His more recent form has not hit the peaks but does this really imply that he was never that great, or has he just dropped off from his own peak? Does that taint his legacy? Not the same scenario but Schumacher's return did not go particularly well. He is still viewed as an all time great (yes, seven titles versus four).

I do think there is a balance between titles and your standing amongst your peers, Jack Brabham won 3 titles but never gets any kind of look in.


Actually Jack Brabham won 5 titles: 3 wdc + 2 wcc.

I don't believe that's how it works otherwise Bottas has 2 titles himself with a third coming sometime later this season.


???

I do not think that Bottas won any wcc's. But Jack Brabham - as team owner and engineer - actually did!

Author:  tootsie323 [ Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
In defence of Vettel, his four straight WDCs pretty much cement him in F1 history. Even if one argues the benefit of the car at the time, there were two drivers in that team and the other one did not manage a single title.
His more recent form has not hit the peaks but does this really imply that he was never that great, or has he just dropped off from his own peak? Does that taint his legacy? Not the same scenario but Schumacher's return did not go particularly well. He is still viewed as an all time great (yes, seven titles versus four).

I do think there is a balance between titles and your standing amongst your peers, Jack Brabham won 3 titles but never gets any kind of look in.


Actually Jack Brabham won 5 titles: 3 wdc + 2 wcc.

I don't believe that's how it works otherwise Bottas has 2 titles himself with a third coming sometime later this season.


???

I do not think that Bottas won any wcc's. But Jack Brabham - as team owner and engineer - actually did!

Penny has dropped! Apologies Poker - we do not mean the other driver in a WCC-winning team. Jack Brabham was a team owner as well as driver, hence winning both WDCs and WCCs.

Author:  Todd [ Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Off Topic Post removed by mod.

Author:  Mod Aqua [ Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

This is a thread about Sebastian Vettel's place in F1. Comments about Hamilton's lifestyle by comparing him to movie characters are clearly irrelevant.

Author:  F1 Racer [ Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

I think it is best to wait until the end of Vettel's F1 career before deciding on this.

If he doesn't win any more titles and retires early then he definately can't be regarded as a top ten driver in my opinion.

However if the Ferrari is strong next season and he beats Leclerc to the WDC, then he has to be in consideration for it. I just don't feel he has done quite enough yet to justify such lofty praise, what with his four titles coming so early in his career during one particularly dominant Red Bull stretch, and his high number of driver errors in recent seasons, he needs to do more.

Author:  pokerman [ Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

tootsie323 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
In defence of Vettel, his four straight WDCs pretty much cement him in F1 history. Even if one argues the benefit of the car at the time, there were two drivers in that team and the other one did not manage a single title.
His more recent form has not hit the peaks but does this really imply that he was never that great, or has he just dropped off from his own peak? Does that taint his legacy? Not the same scenario but Schumacher's return did not go particularly well. He is still viewed as an all time great (yes, seven titles versus four).

I do think there is a balance between titles and your standing amongst your peers, Jack Brabham won 3 titles but never gets any kind of look in.


Actually Jack Brabham won 5 titles: 3 wdc + 2 wcc.

I don't believe that's how it works otherwise Bottas has 2 titles himself with a third coming sometime later this season.

Am I missing something? Wasn't Jack Brabham an F1 team owner? I'm pretty sure that Bottas isn't.

So do we include Frank Williams now?

Author:  pokerman [ Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

tootsie323 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I do think there is a balance between titles and your standing amongst your peers, Jack Brabham won 3 titles but never gets any kind of look in.


Actually Jack Brabham won 5 titles: 3 wdc + 2 wcc.

I don't believe that's how it works otherwise Bottas has 2 titles himself with a third coming sometime later this season.


???

I do not think that Bottas won any wcc's. But Jack Brabham - as team owner and engineer - actually did!

Penny has dropped! Apologies Poker - we do not mean the other driver in a WCC-winning team. Jack Brabham was a team owner as well as driver, hence winning both WDCs and WCCs.

Fair enough and I've actually asked the question on that one.

Author:  Paolo_Lasardi [ Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

pokerman wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:

I do think there is a balance between titles and your standing amongst your peers, Jack Brabham won 3 titles but never gets any kind of look in.


Actually Jack Brabham won 5 titles: 3 wdc + 2 wcc.

I don't believe that's how it works otherwise Bottas has 2 titles himself with a third coming sometime later this season.

Am I missing something? Wasn't Jack Brabham an F1 team owner? I'm pretty sure that Bottas isn't.

So do we include Frank Williams now?


Well, Frank Williams did not win any driver titles, did he?

The talk was about legacy and greatness of drivers. Jack Brabham won five titles in F1 and he is unique as he won both wdc's (3) and wcc's (2), no other driver achieved this. As such, IMO, he should be high up on any greatest/legacy list .

Schumacher or Vettel (or anyone else) never achieved this.

Author:  tootsie323 [ Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Actually Jack Brabham won 5 titles: 3 wdc + 2 wcc.

I don't believe that's how it works otherwise Bottas has 2 titles himself with a third coming sometime later this season.

Am I missing something? Wasn't Jack Brabham an F1 team owner? I'm pretty sure that Bottas isn't.

So do we include Frank Williams now?


Well, Frank Williams did not win any driver titles, did he?

The talk was about legacy and greatness of drivers. Jack Brabham won five titles in F1 and he is unique as he won both wdc's (3) and wcc's (2), no other driver achieved this. As such, IMO, he should be high up on any greatest/legacy list .

Schumacher or Vettel (or anyone else) never achieved this.

Jut to be clear, Brabham won both the WDC (as driver) and WCC (as team owner) in 1966 (driving his own car).

Author:  Option or Prime [ Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

tootsie323 wrote:
Jut to be clear, Brabham won both the WDC (as driver) and WCC (as team owner) in 1966 (driving his own car).


Amazing fact!

One thing is for sure, that will never happen again.

Author:  tootsie323 [ Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Option or Prime wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Jut to be clear, Brabham won both the WDC (as driver) and WCC (as team owner) in 1966 (driving his own car).

Amazing fact!

One thing is for sure, that will never happen again.

I was tempted to embellish it wildly by adding, "... and it was a Ford Cortina..."

Author:  Option or Prime [ Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

tootsie323 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Jut to be clear, Brabham won both the WDC (as driver) and WCC (as team owner) in 1966 (driving his own car).

Amazing fact!

One thing is for sure, that will never happen again.

I was tempted to embellish it wildly by adding, "... and it was a Ford Cortina..."


But Jack Brabham didn't design the Ford Cort..... Oooohh I get it now. :thumbup:

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