planetf1.com

Not for me.

I would first look at drivers who have won WDCs with more than one team, which puts in Schumacher, Hamilton, Prost, Fangio, Graham Hill (being the only holder of the triple crown would help his case for inclusion), Lauda. Then there is Senna who probably would have done had it not been for his tragic end. I have probably missed some as I haven’t considered a list of greats in detail, but it doesn’t seem that 10 would be hard to get to.

Didn’t Vettel move to Ferrari as he wanted to achieve that? No title in 5 years isn’t looking great, though Ferrari haven’t always put out a great car. I’m not sure that 4 successive titles including first title will be achieved by anyone else, but this is all that sticks out to me at the moment.

pokerman wrote:Schumacher had to be considered past his prime being 40+ years and out of F1 for 3 years, Vettel is still very much in his prime, he's 2 years younger than Hamilton.

He broke his neck on a racing bike and was too old to heal. He came back to develop the Mercedes F1 car, which he did. Saying that this act of loyalty to Mercedes elevates Nico or Hamilton is absurd.

Driver identity confusion edited by Mod

-K- wrote:Not for me.

I would first look at drivers who have won WDCs with more than one team, which puts in Schumacher, Hamilton, Prost, Fangio, Graham Hill (being the only holder of the triple crown would help his case for inclusion), Lauda. Then there is Senna who probably would have done had it not been for his tragic end. I have probably missed some as I haven’t considered a list of greats in detail, but it doesn’t seem that 10 would be hard to get to.

Didn’t Vettel move to Ferrari as he wanted to achieve that? No title in 5 years isn’t looking great, though Ferrari haven’t always put out a great car. I’m not sure that 4 successive titles including first title will be achieved by anyone else, but this is all that sticks out to me at the moment.

Winning WDCs with more than one car doesn't mean that much when others win WDCs with the same teams. Schumacher won with Benetton, which nobody else ever came close to doing. Vettel won with RedBull, which has also eluded other drivers. Hamilton? McLaren? You're there to win the title at a canter. Mercedes? Nico Rosberg beat him to the title in the same car. If Hamilton deserves inclusion in any list of exceptional F1 drivers based on numbers, questioning Vettel's place is all about jingoism.

Blake wrote:let me preface my comments with a reminder that I am already on record saying that Seb is not one of the all-time greats. However, I find it interesting that some are using this year as "proof" that he shouldn't make their list. Leclerc, for all of his promise, can hardly be considered greater than Vettel, in my opinion. Nor can I put Max there at this time of his career. It seems as though Vettel's history (4W WDCs is not insignificant...even if he was in great cars during that time) is being dismissed in favor of 2018-19. If one is going to do that, then, should Hamilton's place in history be judged on his less than stellar year as well? Schumi rated on his three post-first retirement period (OK.. granted, some have done that too).

Again, I don't rate Vettel as one of the top 10 best drivers, but I do think I am seeing some reasons based more on biases and a bit of hypocrisy.

It's not using this year against Leclerc as proof that Vettel should not be on the list it's weighing up all his years, as of yet Leclerc hasn't even beaten Vettel which was already explained to you but still you want to cycle it around.

Also it's not a simple case of who scores the most points between teammates in any particular season, faster teammates sometimes score less points for a multitude of reasons.

Hamilton finished behind Button in 2011 but did he look like he struggled for ultimate speed, that would be a no.

Vettel finished behind Ricciardo in 2014, did he look like he was struggling for ultimate speed, that would be a yes.

Did Ricciardo struggle against Verstappen, that would be another yes, it's forming an understanding of the pecking order of the drivers and if you view Vettel as not even in the top 3 of the present drives that how does he make the top 10 ATG list?

Back to Hamilton that you seemingly want to paint as being no better than Vettel in past failures as far as I can see, in the past 6 years he's always been rated in the top 2, some would have him as the #1 driver, that's the level I would say you need to be at amongst your peer group to be in consideration as a top 10 ATG and then you can throw in the 5/6 titles to cement that even more.

In respect to Schumacher at 40+ years he gets a pass as being past his prime.

If it's merely about titles then of course Vettel makes the list but you yourself said it's not about titles when you put Moss on your list.

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

pokerman wrote:

tootsie323 wrote:In defence of Vettel, his four straight WDCs pretty much cement him in F1 history. Even if one argues the benefit of the car at the time, there were two drivers in that team and the other one did not manage a single title.
His more recent form has not hit the peaks but does this really imply that he was never that great, or has he just dropped off from his own peak? Does that taint his legacy? Not the same scenario but Schumacher's return did not go particularly well. He is still viewed as an all time great (yes, seven titles versus four).

I do think there is a balance between titles and your standing amongst your peers, Jack Brabham won 3 titles but never gets any kind of look in.

Actually Jack Brabham won 5 titles: 3 wdc + 2 wcc.

I don't believe that's how it works otherwise Bottas has 2 titles himself with a third coming sometime later this season.

Off topic post removed by mod.

Off topic post removed by mod.

pokerman wrote:

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

pokerman wrote:

tootsie323 wrote:In defence of Vettel, his four straight WDCs pretty much cement him in F1 history. Even if one argues the benefit of the car at the time, there were two drivers in that team and the other one did not manage a single title.
His more recent form has not hit the peaks but does this really imply that he was never that great, or has he just dropped off from his own peak? Does that taint his legacy? Not the same scenario but Schumacher's return did not go particularly well. He is still viewed as an all time great (yes, seven titles versus four).

I do think there is a balance between titles and your standing amongst your peers, Jack Brabham won 3 titles but never gets any kind of look in.

Actually Jack Brabham won 5 titles: 3 wdc + 2 wcc.

I don't believe that's how it works otherwise Bottas has 2 titles himself with a third coming sometime later this season.

Am I missing something? Wasn't Jack Brabham an F1 team owner? I'm pretty sure that Bottas isn't.

pokerman wrote:

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

pokerman wrote:

tootsie323 wrote:In defence of Vettel, his four straight WDCs pretty much cement him in F1 history. Even if one argues the benefit of the car at the time, there were two drivers in that team and the other one did not manage a single title.
His more recent form has not hit the peaks but does this really imply that he was never that great, or has he just dropped off from his own peak? Does that taint his legacy? Not the same scenario but Schumacher's return did not go particularly well. He is still viewed as an all time great (yes, seven titles versus four).

I do think there is a balance between titles and your standing amongst your peers, Jack Brabham won 3 titles but never gets any kind of look in.

Actually Jack Brabham won 5 titles: 3 wdc + 2 wcc.

I don't believe that's how it works otherwise Bottas has 2 titles himself with a third coming sometime later this season.

???

I do not think that Bottas won any wcc's. But Jack Brabham - as team owner and engineer - actually did!

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

pokerman wrote:

tootsie323 wrote:In defence of Vettel, his four straight WDCs pretty much cement him in F1 history. Even if one argues the benefit of the car at the time, there were two drivers in that team and the other one did not manage a single title.
His more recent form has not hit the peaks but does this really imply that he was never that great, or has he just dropped off from his own peak? Does that taint his legacy? Not the same scenario but Schumacher's return did not go particularly well. He is still viewed as an all time great (yes, seven titles versus four).

I do think there is a balance between titles and your standing amongst your peers, Jack Brabham won 3 titles but never gets any kind of look in.

Actually Jack Brabham won 5 titles: 3 wdc + 2 wcc.

I don't believe that's how it works otherwise Bottas has 2 titles himself with a third coming sometime later this season.

???

I do not think that Bottas won any wcc's. But Jack Brabham - as team owner and engineer - actually did!

Penny has dropped! Apologies Poker - we do not mean the other driver in a WCC-winning team. Jack Brabham was a team owner as well as driver, hence winning both WDCs and WCCs.

Off Topic Post removed by mod.

I think it is best to wait until the end of Vettel's F1 career before deciding on this.

If he doesn't win any more titles and retires early then he definately can't be regarded as a top ten driver in my opinion.

However if the Ferrari is strong next season and he beats Leclerc to the WDC, then he has to be in consideration for it. I just don't feel he has done quite enough yet to justify such lofty praise, what with his four titles coming so early in his career during one particularly dominant Red Bull stretch, and his high number of driver errors in recent seasons, he needs to do more.

tootsie323 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

pokerman wrote:

tootsie323 wrote:In defence of Vettel, his four straight WDCs pretty much cement him in F1 history. Even if one argues the benefit of the car at the time, there were two drivers in that team and the other one did not manage a single title.
His more recent form has not hit the peaks but does this really imply that he was never that great, or has he just dropped off from his own peak? Does that taint his legacy? Not the same scenario but Schumacher's return did not go particularly well. He is still viewed as an all time great (yes, seven titles versus four).

I do think there is a balance between titles and your standing amongst your peers, Jack Brabham won 3 titles but never gets any kind of look in.

Actually Jack Brabham won 5 titles: 3 wdc + 2 wcc.

I don't believe that's how it works otherwise Bottas has 2 titles himself with a third coming sometime later this season.

Am I missing something? Wasn't Jack Brabham an F1 team owner? I'm pretty sure that Bottas isn't.

So do we include Frank Williams now?

tootsie323 wrote:

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

pokerman wrote: I do think there is a balance between titles and your standing amongst your peers, Jack Brabham won 3 titles but never gets any kind of look in.

Actually Jack Brabham won 5 titles: 3 wdc + 2 wcc.

I don't believe that's how it works otherwise Bottas has 2 titles himself with a third coming sometime later this season.

???

I do not think that Bottas won any wcc's. But Jack Brabham - as team owner and engineer - actually did!

Penny has dropped! Apologies Poker - we do not mean the other driver in a WCC-winning team. Jack Brabham was a team owner as well as driver, hence winning both WDCs and WCCs.

Fair enough and I've actually asked the question on that one.

pokerman wrote:

tootsie323 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

pokerman wrote:
I do think there is a balance between titles and your standing amongst your peers, Jack Brabham won 3 titles but never gets any kind of look in.

Actually Jack Brabham won 5 titles: 3 wdc + 2 wcc.

I don't believe that's how it works otherwise Bottas has 2 titles himself with a third coming sometime later this season.

Am I missing something? Wasn't Jack Brabham an F1 team owner? I'm pretty sure that Bottas isn't.

So do we include Frank Williams now?

Well, Frank Williams did not win any driver titles, did he?

The talk was about legacy and greatness of drivers. Jack Brabham won five titles in F1 and he is unique as he won both wdc's (3) and wcc's (2), no other driver achieved this. As such, IMO, he should be high up on any greatest/legacy list .

Schumacher or Vettel (or anyone else) never achieved this.

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

pokerman wrote:

tootsie323 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Paolo_Lasardi wrote: Actually Jack Brabham won 5 titles: 3 wdc + 2 wcc.

I don't believe that's how it works otherwise Bottas has 2 titles himself with a third coming sometime later this season.

Am I missing something? Wasn't Jack Brabham an F1 team owner? I'm pretty sure that Bottas isn't.

So do we include Frank Williams now?

Well, Frank Williams did not win any driver titles, did he?

The talk was about legacy and greatness of drivers. Jack Brabham won five titles in F1 and he is unique as he won both wdc's (3) and wcc's (2), no other driver achieved this. As such, IMO, he should be high up on any greatest/legacy list .

Schumacher or Vettel (or anyone else) never achieved this.

Jut to be clear, Brabham won both the WDC (as driver) and WCC (as team owner) in 1966 (driving his own car).

tootsie323 wrote: Jut to be clear, Brabham won both the WDC (as driver) and WCC (as team owner) in 1966 (driving his own car).

Amazing fact!

One thing is for sure, that will never happen again.

Option or Prime wrote:

tootsie323 wrote: Jut to be clear, Brabham won both the WDC (as driver) and WCC (as team owner) in 1966 (driving his own car).

Amazing fact!

One thing is for sure, that will never happen again.

I was tempted to embellish it wildly by adding, "... and it was a Ford Cortina..."

tootsie323 wrote:

Option or Prime wrote:

tootsie323 wrote: Jut to be clear, Brabham won both the WDC (as driver) and WCC (as team owner) in 1966 (driving his own car).

Amazing fact!

One thing is for sure, that will never happen again.

I was tempted to embellish it wildly by adding, "... and it was a Ford Cortina..."

But Jack Brabham didn't design the Ford Cort..... Oooohh I get it now.

Redirecting from a discussion going on in one of the Most Career Wins threads...

Piquet level for Vettel sounds about right, yes. Not realistically in the argument for being best (nor greatest) of his era but very accomplished.

Can Vettel do enough before the end of his career to change perception and be considered top-ten all-time by those who aren't merely casual fans? We know that the basic casual sees that 4>2 so Vettel must be greater than Alonso and most casuals assume Vettel must be top-ten of all-time, but when this question is asked on more serious forums the overwhelming sentiment is that Vettel is not a top-ten great.

I'm still surprised by the lopsidedness of the general view but that's how it appears to be, and I find that quite interesting.

What could Vettel do from now until the end of his career to convince yall otherwise?

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:18 am

What could Vettel do from now until the end of his career to convince yall otherwise?

I think that ship has sailed, to be honest. Unless he gets the Aston Martin seat and the car is dramatically better than anyone expects, he isn't going to get another chance to do what he needs to do -- which is go up against a driver rated at the very top and beat them when the chips are down in equal machinery. He failed to do that against Hamilton in 2017 and 2018, and that's when his chances of being viewed as an all-time great evaporated. Being beaten (by most people's perception) by Charles Leclerc in the same team just sealed the deal.

Exediron wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:31 am

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:18 am

What could Vettel do from now until the end of his career to convince yall otherwise?

I think that ship has sailed, to be honest. Unless he gets the Aston Martin seat and the car is dramatically better than anyone expects, he isn't going to get another chance to do what he needs to do -- which is go up against a driver rated at the very top and beat them when the chips are down in equal machinery. He failed to do that against Hamilton in 2017 and 2018, and that's when his chances of being viewed as an all-time great evaporated. Being beaten (by most people's perception) by Charles Leclerc in the same team just sealed the deal.

And it looks like things might start to spiral out of control this season with Vettel taking legitimate drubbings at the hands of Leclerc. Though this speaks to Vettel not quite being all that, much credit should be given to Leclerc for creating such a disparity of performance.

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:18 am

Redirecting from a discussion going on in one of the Most Career Wins threads...

Piquet level for Vettel sounds about right, yes. Not realistically in the argument for being best (nor greatest) of his era but very accomplished.

Can Vettel do enough before the end of his career to change perception and be considered top-ten all-time by those who aren't merely casual fans? We know that the basic casual sees that 4>2 so Vettel must be greater than Alonso and most casuals assume Vettel must be top-ten of all-time, but when this question is asked on more serious forums the overwhelming sentiment is that Vettel is not a top-ten great.

I'm still surprised by the lopsidedness of the general view but that's how it appears to be, and I find that quite interesting.

What could Vettel do from now until the end of his career to convince yall otherwise?

For those that question him he needs to turn his season around against Leclerc, beyond that very little, will he still even be in F1, the Aston Martin gig appears to have gone cold now and even then beating Stroll wouldn't exactly change the opinion of people that doubt him.

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:18 am

Redirecting from a discussion going on in one of the Most Career Wins threads...

Piquet level for Vettel sounds about right, yes. Not realistically in the argument for being best (nor greatest) of his era but very accomplished.

Can Vettel do enough before the end of his career to change perception and be considered top-ten all-time by those who aren't merely casual fans? We know that the basic casual sees that 4>2 so Vettel must be greater than Alonso and most casuals assume Vettel must be top-ten of all-time, but when this question is asked on more serious forums the overwhelming sentiment is that Vettel is not a top-ten great.

I'm still surprised by the lopsidedness of the general view but that's how it appears to be, and I find that quite interesting.

What could Vettel do from now until the end of his career to convince yall otherwise?

He really does not need to do anything anymore he needs not convince anyone, Vettel will always be an F1 all time great irrespective of what anyone thinks.

The history of F1 can not be written without him, fans can always have their opinions but the records book will never change currently only 3 drivers have achieved more titles than him in the history of F1.

Perception of what can be is never written in the records books.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:54 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:18 am

Redirecting from a discussion going on in one of the Most Career Wins threads...

Piquet level for Vettel sounds about right, yes. Not realistically in the argument for being best (nor greatest) of his era but very accomplished.

Can Vettel do enough before the end of his career to change perception and be considered top-ten all-time by those who aren't merely casual fans? We know that the basic casual sees that 4>2 so Vettel must be greater than Alonso and most casuals assume Vettel must be top-ten of all-time, but when this question is asked on more serious forums the overwhelming sentiment is that Vettel is not a top-ten great.

I'm still surprised by the lopsidedness of the general view but that's how it appears to be, and I find that quite interesting.

What could Vettel do from now until the end of his career to convince yall otherwise?

He really does not need to do anything anymore he needs not convince anyone, Vettel will always be an F1 all time great irrespective of what anyone thinks.

The history of F1 can not be written without him, fans can always have their opinions but the records book will never change currently only 3 drivers have achieved more titles than him in the history of F1.

Perception of what can be is never written in the records books.

Perception is constantly written into the history books. The history of thought presented in words, written on the internet (and in books and articles and so forth) is catalogued in the vast historical archive of human perception.

However, this isn't about needs but merely a question of curiosity in what Vettel could do to change the dominant perception that he is for the majority not top-ten and, for many who have him top-ten, he is so merely at the fringes. Nonetheless, nobody can say Vettel is not an important part of F1 history and has not written his name indelibly into the chronicles of F1 history. He certainly has — no doubt about it!

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:01 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:54 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:18 am

Redirecting from a discussion going on in one of the Most Career Wins threads...

Piquet level for Vettel sounds about right, yes. Not realistically in the argument for being best (nor greatest) of his era but very accomplished.

Can Vettel do enough before the end of his career to change perception and be considered top-ten all-time by those who aren't merely casual fans? We know that the basic casual sees that 4>2 so Vettel must be greater than Alonso and most casuals assume Vettel must be top-ten of all-time, but when this question is asked on more serious forums the overwhelming sentiment is that Vettel is not a top-ten great.

I'm still surprised by the lopsidedness of the general view but that's how it appears to be, and I find that quite interesting.

What could Vettel do from now until the end of his career to convince yall otherwise?

He really does not need to do anything anymore he needs not convince anyone, Vettel will always be an F1 all time great irrespective of what anyone thinks.

The history of F1 can not be written without him, fans can always have their opinions but the records book will never change currently only 3 drivers have achieved more titles than him in the history of F1.

Perception of what can be is never written in the records books.

Perception is constantly written into the history books. The history of thought presented in words, written on the internet (and in books and articles and so forth) is catalogued in the vast historical archive of human perception.

However, this isn't about needs but merely a question of curiosity in what Vettel could do to change the dominant perception that he is for the majority not top-ten and, for many who have him top-ten, he is so merely at the fringes. Nonetheless, nobody can say Vettel is not an important part of F1 history and has not written his name indelibly into the chronicles of F1 history. He certainly has — no doubt about it!

Perception is never written into the record books, no one is going to look at the record books and see a driver with the most wins in a season the most pole positions and think this is not greatness!

There's nothing he can do, or needs to do, it's almost like Prost trying to change peoples minds.

This is a driver that when he won in a Toro Rosso people claimed it was the best car on the grid, but somehow you now expect people to accept whatever he does?

Take Martin Brundle for example, Vettel gets pole n wins in a TR I love this little kid who goes around in a backpack really friendly and now has his first win in F1 I have no doubt in my mind he's going to be a WC in a front running car.

Redbull announces Vettel moving to the sister team brundle thinks Vettel is making a mistake should stay at TR as they have a better car than Redbull.

Vettel wins his first title and the "I wonder what Hamilton and Alonso would be doing in that car" crops up hence every Alonso and Hamilton fan jump on the Vettel booing & hate train.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:54 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:18 am

Redirecting from a discussion going on in one of the Most Career Wins threads...

Piquet level for Vettel sounds about right, yes. Not realistically in the argument for being best (nor greatest) of his era but very accomplished.

Can Vettel do enough before the end of his career to change perception and be considered top-ten all-time by those who aren't merely casual fans? We know that the basic casual sees that 4>2 so Vettel must be greater than Alonso and most casuals assume Vettel must be top-ten of all-time, but when this question is asked on more serious forums the overwhelming sentiment is that Vettel is not a top-ten great.

I'm still surprised by the lopsidedness of the general view but that's how it appears to be, and I find that quite interesting.

What could Vettel do from now until the end of his career to convince yall otherwise?

He really does not need to do anything anymore he needs not convince anyone, Vettel will always be an F1 all time great irrespective of what anyone thinks.

The history of F1 can not be written without him, fans can always have their opinions but the records book will never change currently only 3 drivers have achieved more titles than him in the history of F1.

Perception of what can be is never written in the records books.

Given the fact that this is entirely subjective that sentence is an oxymoron.

It is impossible for Vettel to be an all time great if people don't think he is. He may be an all time great to you. He isn't to me.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:30 pm

Given the fact that this is entirely subjective that sentence is an oxymoron.

It is impossible for Vettel to be an all time great if people don't think he is. He may be an all time great to you. He isn't to me.

What's the cutoff for being an ATG? This isn't straightforward if it boils down to being in say, a top-(insert number) list, because as the history of the sport continues to be written more and more great names will get left off such a list.

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:40 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:30 pm

Given the fact that this is entirely subjective that sentence is an oxymoron.

It is impossible for Vettel to be an all time great if people don't think he is. He may be an all time great to you. He isn't to me.

What's the cutoff for being an ATG? This isn't straightforward if it boils down to being in say, a top-(insert number) list, because as the history of the sport continues to be written more and more great names will get left off such a list.

Well yeah, that's kind of inevitable. The bigger the talent pool the harder it is to be at the vert head of spear. That being said I think over time the number of ATG do rise slightly but it's down to individual opinion.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:30 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:54 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:18 am

Redirecting from a discussion going on in one of the Most Career Wins threads...

Piquet level for Vettel sounds about right, yes. Not realistically in the argument for being best (nor greatest) of his era but very accomplished.

Can Vettel do enough before the end of his career to change perception and be considered top-ten all-time by those who aren't merely casual fans? We know that the basic casual sees that 4>2 so Vettel must be greater than Alonso and most casuals assume Vettel must be top-ten of all-time, but when this question is asked on more serious forums the overwhelming sentiment is that Vettel is not a top-ten great.

I'm still surprised by the lopsidedness of the general view but that's how it appears to be, and I find that quite interesting.

What could Vettel do from now until the end of his career to convince yall otherwise?

He really does not need to do anything anymore he needs not convince anyone, Vettel will always be an F1 all time great irrespective of what anyone thinks.

The history of F1 can not be written without him, fans can always have their opinions but the records book will never change currently only 3 drivers have achieved more titles than him in the history of F1.

Perception of what can be is never written in the records books.

Given the fact that this is entirely subjective that sentence is an oxymoron.

It is impossible for Vettel to be an all time great if people don't think he is. He may be an all time great to you. He isn't to me.

Exactly why I said he has nothing to do or prove, your opinion remains your opinion, but the stats say so!

He currently sits as the 4th most successful driver not on the grid but in the history of the sport.

I would like to understand what qualifies for being an all time great!

Rockie wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:46 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:30 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:54 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:18 am

Redirecting from a discussion going on in one of the Most Career Wins threads...

Piquet level for Vettel sounds about right, yes. Not realistically in the argument for being best (nor greatest) of his era but very accomplished.

Can Vettel do enough before the end of his career to change perception and be considered top-ten all-time by those who aren't merely casual fans? We know that the basic casual sees that 4>2 so Vettel must be greater than Alonso and most casuals assume Vettel must be top-ten of all-time, but when this question is asked on more serious forums the overwhelming sentiment is that Vettel is not a top-ten great.

I'm still surprised by the lopsidedness of the general view but that's how it appears to be, and I find that quite interesting.

What could Vettel do from now until the end of his career to convince yall otherwise?

He really does not need to do anything anymore he needs not convince anyone, Vettel will always be an F1 all time great irrespective of what anyone thinks.

The history of F1 can not be written without him, fans can always have their opinions but the records book will never change currently only 3 drivers have achieved more titles than him in the history of F1.

Perception of what can be is never written in the records books.

Given the fact that this is entirely subjective that sentence is an oxymoron.

It is impossible for Vettel to be an all time great if people don't think he is. He may be an all time great to you. He isn't to me.

Exactly why I said he has nothing to do or prove, your opinion remains your opinion, but the stats say so!

He currently sits as the 4th most successful driver not on the grid but in the history of the sport.

I would like to understand what qualifies for being an all time great!

Someone who is the best or at least very, very close to the best of their generation I.e Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Laura, Prost, Senna, Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton.

You can't be easily bested in your own era and be considered one of the greats of all time.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:14 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:01 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:54 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:18 am

Redirecting from a discussion going on in one of the Most Career Wins threads...

Piquet level for Vettel sounds about right, yes. Not realistically in the argument for being best (nor greatest) of his era but very accomplished.

Can Vettel do enough before the end of his career to change perception and be considered top-ten all-time by those who aren't merely casual fans? We know that the basic casual sees that 4>2 so Vettel must be greater than Alonso and most casuals assume Vettel must be top-ten of all-time, but when this question is asked on more serious forums the overwhelming sentiment is that Vettel is not a top-ten great.

I'm still surprised by the lopsidedness of the general view but that's how it appears to be, and I find that quite interesting.

What could Vettel do from now until the end of his career to convince yall otherwise?

He really does not need to do anything anymore he needs not convince anyone, Vettel will always be an F1 all time great irrespective of what anyone thinks.

The history of F1 can not be written without him, fans can always have their opinions but the records book will never change currently only 3 drivers have achieved more titles than him in the history of F1.

Perception of what can be is never written in the records books.

Perception is constantly written into the history books. The history of thought presented in words, written on the internet (and in books and articles and so forth) is catalogued in the vast historical archive of human perception.

However, this isn't about needs but merely a question of curiosity in what Vettel could do to change the dominant perception that he is for the majority not top-ten and, for many who have him top-ten, he is so merely at the fringes. Nonetheless, nobody can say Vettel is not an important part of F1 history and has not written his name indelibly into the chronicles of F1 history. He certainly has — no doubt about it!

Perception is never written into the record books, no one is going to look at the record books and see a driver with the most wins in a season the most pole positions and think this is not greatness!

There's nothing he can do, or needs to do, it's almost like Prost trying to change peoples minds.

This is a driver that when he won in a Toro Rosso people claimed it was the best car on the grid, but somehow you now expect people to accept whatever he does?

Take Martin Brundle for example, Vettel gets pole n wins in a TR I love this little kid who goes around in a backpack really friendly and now has his first win in F1 I have no doubt in my mind he's going to be a WC in a front running car.

Redbull announces Vettel moving to the sister team brundle thinks Vettel is making a mistake should stay at TR as they have a better car than Redbull.

Vettel wins his first title and the "I wonder what Hamilton and Alonso would be doing in that car" crops up hence every Alonso and Hamilton fan jump on the Vettel booing & hate train.

His titles and wins will always play a factor in how he is judged in future years, for instance even though Ricciado beat him it's going to be hard to rate him above Vettel on an all time list if Riciardo never wins a title.

However this isn't without precedence, for instance I always wonder why Jack Brabham never features on any all time list despite his 3 titles, we kind of rely on people who are around at the time telling us that he wasn't as good as his titles might infer.

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:40 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:30 pm

Given the fact that this is entirely subjective that sentence is an oxymoron.

It is impossible for Vettel to be an all time great if people don't think he is. He may be an all time great to you. He isn't to me.

What's the cutoff for being an ATG? This isn't straightforward if it boils down to being in say, a top-(insert number) list, because as the history of the sport continues to be written more and more great names will get left off such a list.

Well the thread itself specifies a top 10, me personally I think it has to be reasonably select, no more than 10.

Rockie wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:46 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:30 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:54 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:18 am

Redirecting from a discussion going on in one of the Most Career Wins threads...

Piquet level for Vettel sounds about right, yes. Not realistically in the argument for being best (nor greatest) of his era but very accomplished.

Can Vettel do enough before the end of his career to change perception and be considered top-ten all-time by those who aren't merely casual fans? We know that the basic casual sees that 4>2 so Vettel must be greater than Alonso and most casuals assume Vettel must be top-ten of all-time, but when this question is asked on more serious forums the overwhelming sentiment is that Vettel is not a top-ten great.

I'm still surprised by the lopsidedness of the general view but that's how it appears to be, and I find that quite interesting.

What could Vettel do from now until the end of his career to convince yall otherwise?

He really does not need to do anything anymore he needs not convince anyone, Vettel will always be an F1 all time great irrespective of what anyone thinks.

The history of F1 can not be written without him, fans can always have their opinions but the records book will never change currently only 3 drivers have achieved more titles than him in the history of F1.

Perception of what can be is never written in the records books.

Given the fact that this is entirely subjective that sentence is an oxymoron.

It is impossible for Vettel to be an all time great if people don't think he is. He may be an all time great to you. He isn't to me.

Exactly why I said he has nothing to do or prove, your opinion remains your opinion, but the stats say so!

He currently sits as the 4th most successful driver not on the grid but in the history of the sport.

I would like to understand what qualifies for being an all time great!

I'm just wondering with you not exactly being Hamilton's biggest fan, what your opinion of him will be if he becomes statistically the most succesful driver in the history of F1, which may well happen at the end of this season, you would see him as the GOAT?

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:30 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:54 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:18 am

Redirecting from a discussion going on in one of the Most Career Wins threads...

Piquet level for Vettel sounds about right, yes. Not realistically in the argument for being best (nor greatest) of his era but very accomplished.

Can Vettel do enough before the end of his career to change perception and be considered top-ten all-time by those who aren't merely casual fans? We know that the basic casual sees that 4>2 so Vettel must be greater than Alonso and most casuals assume Vettel must be top-ten of all-time, but when this question is asked on more serious forums the overwhelming sentiment is that Vettel is not a top-ten great.

I'm still surprised by the lopsidedness of the general view but that's how it appears to be, and I find that quite interesting.

What could Vettel do from now until the end of his career to convince yall otherwise?

He really does not need to do anything anymore he needs not convince anyone, Vettel will always be an F1 all time great irrespective of what anyone thinks.

The history of F1 can not be written without him, fans can always have their opinions but the records book will never change currently only 3 drivers have achieved more titles than him in the history of F1.

Perception of what can be is never written in the records books.

Given the fact that this is entirely subjective that sentence is an oxymoron.

It is impossible for Vettel to be an all time great if people don't think he is. He may be an all time great to you. He isn't to me.

I don't think it is an oxymoron so much as you and others simply refuse to accept that Vettel "IS" an all-time great.
it doesn't matter if he's not "to you" or a small group" of others, because the record books clearly state otherwise, and the fact is that no one else in Red Bull's history has been as supremely good and consistent as Vettel was for those 4-5 years, not even close.

And as good as Verstappen is, Vettel was still considerably better compared to his peers than Verstappen is to his.
We must always remember that while Vettel was dominating, his teammate struggled to match him in that same car and it was because of Vettel's ability to adapt to a new way of driving which required more commitment to make it work as designed than ever before or since.

The key feature was their diffuser system which required the driver to accelerate more when they felt it getting loose, rather than following the natural instinct to lift which seems the far more logical choice on paper. That took ginormous Cojohns to do and he did it to the extreme.

Vettel IS an all-time great and certainly top 10.

F1 MERCENARY wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:10 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:30 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:54 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:18 am

Redirecting from a discussion going on in one of the Most Career Wins threads...

Piquet level for Vettel sounds about right, yes. Not realistically in the argument for being best (nor greatest) of his era but very accomplished.

Can Vettel do enough before the end of his career to change perception and be considered top-ten all-time by those who aren't merely casual fans? We know that the basic casual sees that 4>2 so Vettel must be greater than Alonso and most casuals assume Vettel must be top-ten of all-time, but when this question is asked on more serious forums the overwhelming sentiment is that Vettel is not a top-ten great.

I'm still surprised by the lopsidedness of the general view but that's how it appears to be, and I find that quite interesting.

What could Vettel do from now until the end of his career to convince yall otherwise?

He really does not need to do anything anymore he needs not convince anyone, Vettel will always be an F1 all time great irrespective of what anyone thinks.

The history of F1 can not be written without him, fans can always have their opinions but the records book will never change currently only 3 drivers have achieved more titles than him in the history of F1.

Perception of what can be is never written in the records books.

Given the fact that this is entirely subjective that sentence is an oxymoron.

It is impossible for Vettel to be an all time great if people don't think he is. He may be an all time great to you. He isn't to me.

I don't think it is an oxymoron so much as you and others simply refuse to accept that Vettel "IS" an all-time great.
it doesn't matter if he's not "to you" or a small group" of others, because the record books clearly state otherwise, and the fact is that no one else in Red Bull's history has been as supremely good and consistent as Vettel was for those 4-5 years, not even close.

And as good as Verstappen is, Vettel was still considerably better compared to his peers than Verstappen is to his.
We must always remember that while Vettel was dominating, his teammate struggled to match him in that same car and it was because of Vettel's ability to adapt to a new way of driving which required more commitment to make it work as designed than ever before or since.

The key feature was their diffuser system which required the driver to accelerate more when they felt it getting loose, rather than following the natural instinct to lift which seems the far more logical choice on paper. That took ginormous Cojohns to do and he did it to the extreme.

Vettel IS an all-time great and certainly top 10.

"All time great" is an individual opinion. It is not a factual statement. A driver is only an all time great by a person considering them an all time great.

The record book can only state that Vettel is one of the most successful drivers ever. It does not have authority to say how people may perceive that success.

For me Vettel is not an all time great and is not in the top 10 of all time.

As there's no actual way to determine this I've taken a slightly different approach and gone with one that acknowledges the fact it's subjective. So I googled lists of "best drivers in F1" and collated the results. I found 12 lists. Those 12 lists mention 23 drivers so first thing is find the 10 names that appear most frequently. That gave me:

Alain Prost
Ayrton Senna
Fernando Alonso
Jackie Stewart
Jim Clark
Juan Fangio
Lewis Hamilton
Michael Schumacher
Niki Lauda
Sebastian Vettel

Don't think you'd get much disagreement there. And in direct response to the topic, yes, Seb is there.

Then I averaged their ranking across all lists to get:

Michael Schumacher
Lewis Hamilton
Juan Fangio
Ayrton Senna
Jim Clark
Jackie Stewart
Alain Prost
Sebastian Vettel
Niki Lauda
Fernando Alonso

That doesn't look too bad to me. One thing I'd say is some were a few years old and I think Hamilton would probably have crept up a few of them. And possibly in light of his recent results, Vettel may have dropped.

Thoughts?

I'd swap Vettel with Ascari and it's my top 10 although in a very different order.

F1 MERCENARY wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:10 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:30 pm

Rockie wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:54 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:18 am

Redirecting from a discussion going on in one of the Most Career Wins threads...

Piquet level for Vettel sounds about right, yes. Not realistically in the argument for being best (nor greatest) of his era but very accomplished.

Can Vettel do enough before the end of his career to change perception and be considered top-ten all-time by those who aren't merely casual fans? We know that the basic casual sees that 4>2 so Vettel must be greater than Alonso and most casuals assume Vettel must be top-ten of all-time, but when this question is asked on more serious forums the overwhelming sentiment is that Vettel is not a top-ten great.

I'm still surprised by the lopsidedness of the general view but that's how it appears to be, and I find that quite interesting.

What could Vettel do from now until the end of his career to convince yall otherwise?

He really does not need to do anything anymore he needs not convince anyone, Vettel will always be an F1 all time great irrespective of what anyone thinks.

The history of F1 can not be written without him, fans can always have their opinions but the records book will never change currently only 3 drivers have achieved more titles than him in the history of F1.

Perception of what can be is never written in the records books.

Given the fact that this is entirely subjective that sentence is an oxymoron.

It is impossible for Vettel to be an all time great if people don't think he is. He may be an all time great to you. He isn't to me.

I don't think it is an oxymoron so much as you and others simply refuse to accept that Vettel "IS" an all-time great.
it doesn't matter if he's not "to you" or a small group" of others, because the record books clearly state otherwise, and the fact is that no one else in Red Bull's history has been as supremely good and consistent as Vettel was for those 4-5 years, not even close.

And as good as Verstappen is, Vettel was still considerably better compared to his peers than Verstappen is to his.
We must always remember that while Vettel was dominating, his teammate struggled to match him in that same car and it was because of Vettel's ability to adapt to a new way of driving which required more commitment to make it work as designed than ever before or since.

The key feature was their diffuser system which required the driver to accelerate more when they felt it getting loose, rather than following the natural instinct to lift which seems the far more logical choice on paper. That took ginormous Cojohns to do and he did it to the extreme.

Vettel IS an all-time great and certainly top 10.

This is mainly just your opinion, if merely titles dictate the rating of drivers then why is Jim Clark, a 2 time WDC, considered an all time great, but Jack Brabham, a 3 time WDC, not considered, obviously the opinion of people matters as well.

I also have to ask when was Vettel ever considered to be considerably better than his peers, I happened to be perusing the 2012 threads today and came across a thread half way through that season and Vettel, at that time a 2 time WDC, was ranked at #3 and there were far more people on the site back then so a more diverse opinion.

It wouldn't surprise me if Vettel got ranked at #1 after his 4th title but that wouldn't have lasted long after he got beat by Ricciardo the year after, certainly the likes of Alonso and Hamilton have sat in the #1 position for far more years than Vettel.