Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

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Vettel Top-Ten ATG yes or no and all that...

Yes
23
24%
No
73
76%
 
Total votes: 96

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Mort Canard
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by Mort Canard »

pokerman wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:27 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:23 pm
Mort Canard wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:54 pm
Seb certainly didn't do anything today at Spa to add to his reputation. :thumbdown: x(


You were waiting for him to outqualify the Mercedes or what exactly was he meant to do today?
Maybe he could stop Leclerc consistently outqualifying him by 3 tenths?
It's been quite a long time since I have watched Seb and thought that no one else could get as much out of that Ferrari as Seb did on that day.

Clearly, it has been a while since Ferrari (cheating or not) has had anything to offer Mercedes in terms of a real challenge. Still the questions persist as to whether Sebastian still has the mindset to extract the maximum from the car he is given.
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by pokerman »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:56 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:25 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:47 am
In 2013 I thought this guy would go on to be the GOAT or a Top 5 ATG.

Stats wise he is Top 3 I think? I think he'll remain there - or Top 5 - for decades to come.

However, his narrow operating window, lack of self motivation and lack of ability to overcome resistance has made me revise my opinion.

On his day, at his peak, with his car hooked up perfectly he is probably untouchable even if there is a power/speed deficit to the others. But too many variables needed for him to be in that window.

He's probably my favourite driver but you have to call a spade a spade sometimes.
Have you just changed your opinion?
Small doubts appeared in 2014...

They went away in 2015 when he "appeared" to break the Mercedes stranglehold and they resurfaced in 2018 and never really went away.

I think - with all conditions optimum - he is untouchable. But like I keep saying, his operating window for peak performance is too narrow for him to be an ATG, unless somehow he miraculously turns it around and starts winning in an Aston Martin.

He's also the guy I cheer for the most. Call me sentimental. I think his personality is great too. The others have the charm of a tin of beans.
Respect. :thumbup:
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:01 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:46 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:39 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:27 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:23 pm




You were waiting for him to outqualify the Mercedes or what exactly was he meant to do today?
Maybe he could stop Leclerc consistently outqualifying him by 3 tenths?
So that will make you consider him a great but not being the 3rd most successful driver alright ok!
It makes it more difficult when he's seen as being inferior to several drivers of his own era, Hamilton, Alonso, Verstappen, Ricciardo and Leclerc, I would say presently that some of those drivers only need to add titles to their resume.
Till they achieve his level of success, it will remain a speculation of what they can achieve, Vettel has achieved that and is ahead of everyone you mentioned there except Hamilton.
Only Hamilton has achieved more than him in this current era!
That being said then I can't understand why you are always so critical of Hamilton?
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:50 am
Invade wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:40 pm
Three of those guys haven't once had a Championship calibre car in their careers yet - hah!
I actually think Leclerc had a championship capable car for most of 2019. Sloppiness on the part of both the driver(s) and the team made it look like much more of a Mercedes walkover than it ought to have been.

After the technical directive that hit in the USA, no. But Ferrari could/should have won 9 of the first 18 races, not 3 like they actually did:

Bahrain: Leclerc's engine fails, taking away an assured win.
Baku: Leclerc crashes in qualifying while looking likely to set pole.
Monaco: Leclerc seems to have the pace for pole in practice, but the team botches his qualifying.
Canada: Vettel wins if he doesn't make an error and go across the grass.
Germany: Ferrari seemed to have the quickest car, but reliability in qualifying and errors in the race prevented them from challenging.
(They did win Belgium, Italy and Singapore)
Russia: One of the two cars would surely have won without Vettel's engine failure.

And an honorable mention to Mexcio, where Leclerc probably could have won if Ferrari hadn't misread the strategy.
It's something I ventured after last season but it's better coming from a non Hamilton/Mercedes fan. :thumbup:
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:17 am
Exediron wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:16 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:01 pm
Till they achieve his level of success, it will remain a speculation of what they can achieve, Vettel has achieved that and is ahead of everyone you mentioned there except Hamilton.
Only Hamilton has achieved more than him in this current era!
Achievement in motorsport is a function of opportunity and ability. The others named have not had the opportunity (except for maybe Alonso, who undermined his potential achievement with off-track decisions rather than a lack of driving ability).
Which goes back to the same thing, till you achieve everything else is noise, what is there to say the others will ever achieve what he has achieved, he had his opportunity and he took it with both hands!

Also for Alonso it was driving ability, his moment in Suzuka is no different from Vettel in Singapore yet Vettel gets crucified for that moment and Alonso gets a pass!
Well they are basically going to have 13 years of sharing titles between them, the likes of Hamilton won't be driving for ever, 4 titles looks very doable.
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:19 am
Invade wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:40 pm
Three of those guys haven't once had a Championship calibre car in their careers yet - hah!
Exactly why they should not be featured when talking about people who have dominated the sport.
None of them are presently being featured in the top 10, they haven't done enough to get featured apart from beating Vettel.
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:09 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:00 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:17 am
Exediron wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:16 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:01 pm
Till they achieve his level of success, it will remain a speculation of what they can achieve, Vettel has achieved that and is ahead of everyone you mentioned there except Hamilton.
Only Hamilton has achieved more than him in this current era!
Achievement in motorsport is a function of opportunity and ability. The others named have not had the opportunity (except for maybe Alonso, who undermined his potential achievement with off-track decisions rather than a lack of driving ability).
Which goes back to the same thing, till you achieve everything else is noise, what is there to say the others will ever achieve what he has achieved, he had his opportunity and he took it with both hands!

Also for Alonso it was driving ability, his moment in Suzuka is no different from Vettel in Singapore yet Vettel gets crucified for that moment and Alonso gets a pass!
So what's your top 10 greatest then? Is it all based on stats?
My top 10 will always be my personal preference.

Which is not the premise of this thread!
So only you are allowed to have a personal preference?
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by Rockie »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:59 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:09 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:00 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:17 am
Exediron wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:16 pm


Achievement in motorsport is a function of opportunity and ability. The others named have not had the opportunity (except for maybe Alonso, who undermined his potential achievement with off-track decisions rather than a lack of driving ability).
Which goes back to the same thing, till you achieve everything else is noise, what is there to say the others will ever achieve what he has achieved, he had his opportunity and he took it with both hands!

Also for Alonso it was driving ability, his moment in Suzuka is no different from Vettel in Singapore yet Vettel gets crucified for that moment and Alonso gets a pass!
So what's your top 10 greatest then? Is it all based on stats?
My top 10 will always be my personal preference.

Which is not the premise of this thread!
So only you are allowed to have a personal preference?
You have this gift of derailing discussions with inanities, so whoever you are having a back and forth with basically just gives up!

I said my top 10 will always be my personal preference, not I am the only one who is allowed to have a personal preference.

Vettel not being in your own top 10 ATG, does not make him not an ATG of this sport based on his achievements which is the question of this thread.

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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by Rockie »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:55 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:17 am
Exediron wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:16 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:01 pm
Till they achieve his level of success, it will remain a speculation of what they can achieve, Vettel has achieved that and is ahead of everyone you mentioned there except Hamilton.
Only Hamilton has achieved more than him in this current era!
Achievement in motorsport is a function of opportunity and ability. The others named have not had the opportunity (except for maybe Alonso, who undermined his potential achievement with off-track decisions rather than a lack of driving ability).
Which goes back to the same thing, till you achieve everything else is noise, what is there to say the others will ever achieve what he has achieved, he had his opportunity and he took it with both hands!

Also for Alonso it was driving ability, his moment in Suzuka is no different from Vettel in Singapore yet Vettel gets crucified for that moment and Alonso gets a pass!
Well they are basically going to have 13 years of sharing titles between them, the likes of Hamilton won't be driving for ever, 4 titles looks very doable.
Just the same way everyone thought it will be Raikkonen v Alonso going forward before Hamilton then Vettel turned up!

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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by Exediron »

Rockie wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:32 pm
Just the same way everyone thought it will be Raikkonen v Alonso going forward before Hamilton then Vettel turned up!
:thumbup:

You can't predict the future that accurately. Thirteen years is plenty of time for someone new to turn up and completely eclipse the championship battle we expect.
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by WHoff78 »

Next season there will be 5 drivers on the starting grid who I assume that many (more than 50%, perhaps more) would agree are better than Vettel, so that's not a great starting point. I do hope that Vettel continues to be a fixture on the grid himself though because he is still right up there on his day.

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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:30 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:59 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:09 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:00 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:17 am


Which goes back to the same thing, till you achieve everything else is noise, what is there to say the others will ever achieve what he has achieved, he had his opportunity and he took it with both hands!

Also for Alonso it was driving ability, his moment in Suzuka is no different from Vettel in Singapore yet Vettel gets crucified for that moment and Alonso gets a pass!
So what's your top 10 greatest then? Is it all based on stats?
My top 10 will always be my personal preference.

Which is not the premise of this thread!
So only you are allowed to have a personal preference?
You have this gift of derailing discussions with inanities, so whoever you are having a back and forth with basically just gives up!

I said my top 10 will always be my personal preference, not I am the only one who is allowed to have a personal preference.

Vettel not being in your own top 10 ATG, does not make him not an ATG of this sport based on his achievements which is the question of this thread.
No you clearly stated that Vettel's stats themself determine that he should be on the list, that doesn't allow for personal opnion.
Last edited by pokerman on Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:32 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:55 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:17 am
Exediron wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:16 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:01 pm
Till they achieve his level of success, it will remain a speculation of what they can achieve, Vettel has achieved that and is ahead of everyone you mentioned there except Hamilton.
Only Hamilton has achieved more than him in this current era!
Achievement in motorsport is a function of opportunity and ability. The others named have not had the opportunity (except for maybe Alonso, who undermined his potential achievement with off-track decisions rather than a lack of driving ability).
Which goes back to the same thing, till you achieve everything else is noise, what is there to say the others will ever achieve what he has achieved, he had his opportunity and he took it with both hands!

Also for Alonso it was driving ability, his moment in Suzuka is no different from Vettel in Singapore yet Vettel gets crucified for that moment and Alonso gets a pass!
Well they are basically going to have 13 years of sharing titles between them, the likes of Hamilton won't be driving for ever, 4 titles looks very doable.
Just the same way everyone thought it will be Raikkonen v Alonso going forward before Hamilton then Vettel turned up!
Well Alonso has still made the list and gets rated above Vettel.
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by pokerman »

WHoff78 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:35 pm
Next season there will be 5 drivers on the starting grid who I assume that many (more than 50%, perhaps more) would agree are better than Vettel, so that's not a great starting point. I do hope that Vettel continues to be a fixture on the grid himself though because he is still right up there on his day.
Same here he's still a quality driver.
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by Invade »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:15 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:58 pm
So is your argument here Bottas is a match for Hamilton?
No. Point taken.
Rockie wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:58 pm
From '09-'14 the highest he finished in the championship was 4th, Vettel and Alonso were consistently better without a shadow of doubt, its not even close. Ricciardo was in the TR and HRT.
Again, you've taken what I said out of context. In the 12 years since Hamilton's debut he has been at worst the 2nd best driver over those 12 years.

To remind you, Vettel has had awful seasons in 2014, 2019 and 2020 in a way that Hamilton has never had. 2011 can be at worst described as inconsistent and contained some of Hamilton's best perfomances and worst.
Rockie wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:58 pm
Even in the Mercedes he has not put together a Vettel in Redbull kind of season.
I think that has a lot to do with a washed up Mark Webber driving the other car and a team built around Vettel to the detriment of Webber. Only Vettel's 2010 is remotely comparable to Hamilton's run between 2010-2016. Vettel was more emphatic, though.

Neither McLaren or Mercedes built the team around him and measures were taken to ensure a level playing field. Hard to string together a 13 win streak when the team gives 700 page dossiers to your teammate and shuffles your garage crew to help them be faster.

I believe to this day that had Alonso been a Red Bull driver with Vettel from 2009-2013 that we would have seen 2011-style dominance every year and the cars didn't reach close to their theoretical potential in the hands of Vettel and Webber.

Hamilton's made very promising drivers like Kovalainen (who comfortably beat Fisichella in 2007 in his own team) and Bottas (undefeated before partnering Hamilton) and made them look ordinary.
I'm gonna give Vettel his due and say he did reach a level in a couple of those years comparable to a strong Alonso or Hamilton, just that he couldn't maintain such a production. Vettel sort of did an Andy Murray 2016... that kinda thing, where Murray punched through a still prime Djokovic (among other legends).

I do think those years of dominance badly warped the perspective of Vettel. Schumacher and Hamilton are perhaps overrated in the sense that their pure winning statistics is often equated with pure greatness, when several other great drivers in history might have approximated such success provided the opportunity. But the extra glow those drivers get because of their ridiculous records pales in comparison to the sort of glow Vettel gets from a rather abbreviated peak/prime, in which the general assumption from younger fans is that he must be top 10 and maybe top 5 all-time.

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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Vettel has simply had too many seasons not performing like a top 10 of all time to be considered a top 10 of all time. He's in the top 20 though.

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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by JN23 »

Invade wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:46 pm
F1Tyrant wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:15 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:58 pm
So is your argument here Bottas is a match for Hamilton?
No. Point taken.
Rockie wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:58 pm
From '09-'14 the highest he finished in the championship was 4th, Vettel and Alonso were consistently better without a shadow of doubt, its not even close. Ricciardo was in the TR and HRT.
Again, you've taken what I said out of context. In the 12 years since Hamilton's debut he has been at worst the 2nd best driver over those 12 years.

To remind you, Vettel has had awful seasons in 2014, 2019 and 2020 in a way that Hamilton has never had. 2011 can be at worst described as inconsistent and contained some of Hamilton's best perfomances and worst.
Rockie wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:58 pm
Even in the Mercedes he has not put together a Vettel in Redbull kind of season.
I think that has a lot to do with a washed up Mark Webber driving the other car and a team built around Vettel to the detriment of Webber. Only Vettel's 2010 is remotely comparable to Hamilton's run between 2010-2016. Vettel was more emphatic, though.

Neither McLaren or Mercedes built the team around him and measures were taken to ensure a level playing field. Hard to string together a 13 win streak when the team gives 700 page dossiers to your teammate and shuffles your garage crew to help them be faster.

I believe to this day that had Alonso been a Red Bull driver with Vettel from 2009-2013 that we would have seen 2011-style dominance every year and the cars didn't reach close to their theoretical potential in the hands of Vettel and Webber.

Hamilton's made very promising drivers like Kovalainen (who comfortably beat Fisichella in 2007 in his own team) and Bottas (undefeated before partnering Hamilton) and made them look ordinary.
I'm gonna give Vettel his due and say he did reach a level in a couple of those years comparable to a strong Alonso or Hamilton, just that he couldn't maintain such a production. Vettel sort of did an Andy Murray 2016... that kinda thing, where Murray punched through a still prime Djokovic (among other legends).

I do think those years of dominance badly warped the perspective of Vettel. Schumacher and Hamilton are perhaps overrated in the sense that their pure winning statistics is often equated with pure greatness, when several other great drivers in history might have approximated such success provided the opportunity. But the extra glow those drivers get because of their ridiculous records pales in comparison to the sort of glow Vettel gets from a rather abbreviated peak/prime, in which the general assumption from younger fans is that he must be top 10 and maybe top 5 all-time.
The Vettel 2011/13-Murray 2016 is a pretty good comparison I think (Y)

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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Invade wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:46 pm
I'm gonna give Vettel his due and say he did reach a level in a couple of those years comparable to a strong Alonso or Hamilton, just that he couldn't maintain such a production.
I totally agree. I'd say his average level is at the top of the Rosberg-Button-Raikkonen bracket but he's far more peaky with higher highs and lower lows.
Invade wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:46 pm
I do think those years of dominance badly warped the perspective of Vettel. Schumacher and Hamilton are perhaps overrated in the sense that their pure winning statistics is often equated with pure greatness, when several other great drivers in history might have approximated such success provided the opportunity.
Yeah the pure statistics are warped towards overrating Schumacher, Hamilton and Vettel. I think Fangio, Clark, Stewart and Ascari were better drivers than Hamilton, Schumacher and I'd also include Alonso in that bracket. All three are slightly better drivers in my opinion than Senna, Prost and Lauda that rounds out my top 10.
Invade wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:46 pm
But the extra glow those drivers get because of their ridiculous records pales in comparison to the sort of glow Vettel gets from a rather abbreviated peak/prime, in which the general assumption from younger fans is that he must be top 10 and maybe top 5 all-time.
Vettel doesn't quite make the list of all-time greats but there is no doubting he was a great driver. I'd rate him slightly above Piquet just outside the top 10.
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by Harpo »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:24 pm
Invade wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:46 pm
I'm gonna give Vettel his due and say he did reach a level in a couple of those years comparable to a strong Alonso or Hamilton, just that he couldn't maintain such a production.
I totally agree. I'd say his average level is at the top of the Rosberg-Button-Raikkonen bracket but he's far more peaky with higher highs and lower lows.
Invade wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:46 pm
I do think those years of dominance badly warped the perspective of Vettel. Schumacher and Hamilton are perhaps overrated in the sense that their pure winning statistics is often equated with pure greatness, when several other great drivers in history might have approximated such success provided the opportunity.
Yeah the pure statistics are warped towards overrating Schumacher, Hamilton and Vettel. I think Fangio, Clark, Stewart and Ascari were better drivers than Hamilton, Schumacher and I'd also include Alonso in that bracket. All three are slightly better drivers in my opinion than Senna, Prost and Lauda that rounds out my top 10.
Invade wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:46 pm
But the extra glow those drivers get because of their ridiculous records pales in comparison to the sort of glow Vettel gets from a rather abbreviated peak/prime, in which the general assumption from younger fans is that he must be top 10 and maybe top 5 all-time.
Vettel doesn't quite make the list of all-time greats but there is no doubting he was a great driver. I'd rate him slightly above Piquet just outside the top 10.
I usually don't add my point of vew in threads about greatests, goats (except on farming forums) and things like that. I don't care that much about rankings. And my opinion is that numbers don't tell everything, and historical judgement needs time...
Outside of you own top 10, I consider drivers like Fittipaldi, Moss, Piquet, Farina, Surtees and Andretti (a quick list) as far more deserving a spot in the light than Vettel. No matter where the "anoraks" may rank them.
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by mikeyg123 »

I think Piquet and Vettel are a very good comparison. Both drivers that circumstances and their ability allowed them to achieve huge success without them being up there with the best of their eras.

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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by Exediron »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:57 am
I think Piquet and Vettel are a very good comparison. Both drivers that circumstances and their ability allowed them to achieve huge success without them being up there with the best of their eras.
Yep. I've said this before, myself.
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Harpo wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:48 am
Outside of you own top 10, I consider drivers like Fittipaldi, Moss, Piquet, Farina, Surtees and Andretti (a quick list) as far more deserving a spot in the light than Vettel. No matter where the "anoraks" may rank them.
While I certainly believe Moss, Farina and perhaps Fittipaldi have strong cases for inclusion ahead of Vettel, I think Surtees gets extra credit for his other achievement but wasn't as consistent as Vettel in F1. Andretti was similar IMO.
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:57 am
Both drivers that circumstances and their ability allowed them to achieve huge success without them being up there with the best of their eras.
Absolutely!
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by pokerman »

In such a long running thread I've probably said this already but there are 2 things that I consider for being a top 10 all time great, the first is achievement, a driver must be a multiple WDC, the second is how you stand against your peers, you can't be seen as the 4th/5th best driver of your era and then make the grade.

On the first count Vettel makes the grade quite easily, on the second count he falls rather short.
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by Harpo »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:42 am
Harpo wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:48 am
Outside of you own top 10, I consider drivers like Fittipaldi, Moss, Piquet, Farina, Surtees and Andretti (a quick list) as far more deserving a spot in the light than Vettel. No matter where the "anoraks" may rank them.
While I certainly believe Moss, Farina and perhaps Fittipaldi have strong cases for inclusion ahead of Vettel, I think Surtees gets extra credit for his other achievement but wasn't as consistent as Vettel in F1. Andretti was similar IMO.
I think most people mistake the driver's consistency with the consistency of the cars he drives. I personally thinks that Surtees showed much more in average cars than Vettel in good to very good ones. Vettel was (is ?) consistent only in best cars. Or do we have to add constant mediocrity in average cars to the tally of consistency ?
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Harpo wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:27 pm
I personally thinks that Surtees showed much more in average cars than Vettel in good to very good ones.
I can't really dispute Surtee's achievements, I'll have to defer to your judgement I've not looked very closely into Surtee's racing record in F1.
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:38 pm
Harpo wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:27 pm
I personally thinks that Surtees showed much more in average cars than Vettel in good to very good ones.
I can't really dispute Surtee's achievements, I'll have to defer to your judgement I've not looked very closely into Surtee's racing record in F1.
Well, Surtees won his wdc because his teammate crashed out his opposition.

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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by Schermerhorn »

In his peak operating window? Untouchable. Probably.

Outside of it? Just a good driver. Maybe Grade B.

I still think that elite driver is still with us.
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by Bobafett »

OK, when Vettel was winning everything under the sun all I would hear is "its the car not Vettel"

Lewis pretty much having a great run now "Lewis is the GOAT it's him not the car"

Also

Vettel has a shocker of a season "he's been found out, he's not as great as you make out"

Lewis has a shocker " cars not set up for him, just one of those races.." you get the idea

To consider one a great without considering the other is madness both have achieved great things in the sport, tbh the amount of world titles doesn't always indicate how great they are, just the level of competitiveness at the time, look at the 80's if it wasn't for the other 3 being around/ being in top cars I am sure senna or prost or piquet or mansell woulda won way more world titles than they did

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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by DOLOMITE »

I wish I could find it but I recall Alonso many years ago saying something about Vettel along the lines of "lets' see how he does with an inferior car".
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by Azi »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:27 am
I wish I could find it but I recall Alonso many years ago saying something about Vettel along the lines of "lets' see how he does with an inferior car".
This one?

'Alonso said: "Time will tell us, I think when he will have a car like the others, if he wins he will have a great recognition and he will be one of the legends in Formula One.

"When one day, he has a car like the others, when he is fourth, fifth or seventh, these four titles will be bad news for him.

"People will take these four titles, even in a worse manner than what they are doing now so they're are interesting times for Sebastian Vettel."'

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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by Exediron »

And what do you know, he was right! I think for sure most people feel Vettel is less deserving of his four titles now, in 2020, than they did at the end of 2013.
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by Good_Year »

Not saying vettel will be a race winner with Aston Martin but, if he did grace the top step again then I think he is top 10, maybe 10 itself.

Essentially vettel has been down since monza 2018 but next year we find out if he's out or can get back up again.
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by Bobafett »

Y'know show me the last champion that won with a complete dig of a car, I'm talking chassis design and poor engine, it's not like Schumi and Hamilton had their dominant times in back marker with a five year old cos worth engine in it

It's not about how can a great worker manage with poor tools.. Rather can he maximise results with the best tools Bottas, Irvine, Barrichello, Webber to name a few had the same great cars.. Conversely Alonso.. Still considered one of the best, could only manage a couple of wins in an inferior Renault in 2008-2009 and even then both had (for different reasons) mitigating circumstances

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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by DOLOMITE »

Azi wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:03 am
DOLOMITE wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:27 am
I wish I could find it but I recall Alonso many years ago saying something about Vettel along the lines of "lets' see how he does with an inferior car".
This one?

'Alonso said: "Time will tell us, I think when he will have a car like the others, if he wins he will have a great recognition and he will be one of the legends in Formula One.

"When one day, he has a car like the others, when he is fourth, fifth or seventh, these four titles will be bad news for him.

"People will take these four titles, even in a worse manner than what they are doing now so they're are interesting times for Sebastian Vettel."'

www.givemesport.com/1399844-fernando-al ... prix%3famp
Yep! Thank-you.

If only Fernando had been as prophetic when making his career choices eh..
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Bobafett wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:43 am
Conversely Alonso.. Still considered one of the best, could only manage a couple of wins in an inferior Renault in 2008-2009 and even then both had (for different reasons) mitigating circumstances
Hold your horses! The 26 points Alonso scored in the R29 are among the best he has ever scored and its among the worst cars to ever score a podium finish (at Singapore). Piquet Jr and Grosjean scored absolutely nothing. Renault would have finished dead last without Alonso.
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by pokerman »

Bobafett wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:17 am
OK, when Vettel was winning everything under the sun all I would hear is "its the car not Vettel"

Lewis pretty much having a great run now "Lewis is the GOAT it's him not the car"

Also

Vettel has a shocker of a season "he's been found out, he's not as great as you make out"

Lewis has a shocker " cars not set up for him, just one of those races.." you get the idea

To consider one a great without considering the other is madness both have achieved great things in the sport, tbh the amount of world titles doesn't always indicate how great they are, just the level of competitiveness at the time, look at the 80's if it wasn't for the other 3 being around/ being in top cars I am sure senna or prost or piquet or mansell woulda won way more world titles than they did
Hamilton and Vettel are looked at differently because of how they have compared to their teammates and who they have actually beaten as teammates.

Hamilton has never taken the comprehensive beatings that Vettel took in 2014 and presently this year, also Hamilton has beaten better teammates.

Another factor is the outcome of the 2017 and 2018 seasons in close to comparable cars, during the Vettel title years he was always seen to have the fastest car sans 2012 in respect to McLaren but they were an operational shambles which prompted Hamilton to leave the team.

Even though it was acknowledged that he had the fastest car he was also acknowledged to be one of the very best drivers, you're always going to get a few knockers but that doesn't mean that they were the majority.
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:35 am
And what do you know, he was right! I think for sure most people feel Vettel is less deserving of his four titles now, in 2020, than they did at the end of 2013.
Indeed if Alonso had won the titles in 2010 and 2012 then Alonso as a 4xWDC and Vettel as a 2xWDC would have a fairer balance.
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by Rockie »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:47 pm
Exediron wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:35 am
And what do you know, he was right! I think for sure most people feel Vettel is less deserving of his four titles now, in 2020, than they did at the end of 2013.
Indeed if Alonso had won the titles in 2010 and 2012 then Alonso as a 4xWDC and Vettel as a 2xWDC would have a fairer balance.
Just the same way if the Kimi's Mercedes engine had been reliable and MSC engine didn't grenade itself at Suzuka Alonso won't have any title as well.

A man who won 2 lucky titles and almost won '10 and '12 with luck as well was to bitter to denigrate others and finish his career as well.

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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by Rockie »

Exediron wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:35 am
And what do you know, he was right! I think for sure most people feel Vettel is less deserving of his four titles now, in 2020, than they did at the end of 2013.
Most people that felt this way were butthurt Alonso and Hamilton fans, who now think being in the only car that can win the title makes him the GOAT whilst before Mercedes he was never a threat to Vettel or Alonso in the title fight.

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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by Option or Prime »

Strange comment, fact is Vettel has been in a completive car and not delivered, in fact he has been overwhelmed by Leclerc. Hamilton has grabbed both opportunities and turned them into team and personal triumphs. Alonso has proven his worth in other motorsports as well.

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