Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

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Vettel Top-Ten ATG yes or no and all that...

Yes
22
24%
No
71
76%
 
Total votes: 93

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Mort Canard
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by Mort Canard »

pokerman wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:27 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:23 pm
Mort Canard wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:54 pm
Seb certainly didn't do anything today at Spa to add to his reputation. :thumbdown: x(


You were waiting for him to outqualify the Mercedes or what exactly was he meant to do today?
Maybe he could stop Leclerc consistently outqualifying him by 3 tenths?
It's been quite a long time since I have watched Seb and thought that no one else could get as much out of that Ferrari as Seb did on that day.

Clearly, it has been a while since Ferrari (cheating or not) has had anything to offer Mercedes in terms of a real challenge. Still the questions persist as to whether Sebastian still has the mindset to extract the maximum from the car he is given.
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pokerman
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by pokerman »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:56 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:25 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:47 am
In 2013 I thought this guy would go on to be the GOAT or a Top 5 ATG.

Stats wise he is Top 3 I think? I think he'll remain there - or Top 5 - for decades to come.

However, his narrow operating window, lack of self motivation and lack of ability to overcome resistance has made me revise my opinion.

On his day, at his peak, with his car hooked up perfectly he is probably untouchable even if there is a power/speed deficit to the others. But too many variables needed for him to be in that window.

He's probably my favourite driver but you have to call a spade a spade sometimes.
Have you just changed your opinion?
Small doubts appeared in 2014...

They went away in 2015 when he "appeared" to break the Mercedes stranglehold and they resurfaced in 2018 and never really went away.

I think - with all conditions optimum - he is untouchable. But like I keep saying, his operating window for peak performance is too narrow for him to be an ATG, unless somehow he miraculously turns it around and starts winning in an Aston Martin.

He's also the guy I cheer for the most. Call me sentimental. I think his personality is great too. The others have the charm of a tin of beans.
Respect. :thumbup:
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pokerman
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:01 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:46 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:39 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:27 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:23 pm




You were waiting for him to outqualify the Mercedes or what exactly was he meant to do today?
Maybe he could stop Leclerc consistently outqualifying him by 3 tenths?
So that will make you consider him a great but not being the 3rd most successful driver alright ok!
It makes it more difficult when he's seen as being inferior to several drivers of his own era, Hamilton, Alonso, Verstappen, Ricciardo and Leclerc, I would say presently that some of those drivers only need to add titles to their resume.
Till they achieve his level of success, it will remain a speculation of what they can achieve, Vettel has achieved that and is ahead of everyone you mentioned there except Hamilton.
Only Hamilton has achieved more than him in this current era!
That being said then I can't understand why you are always so critical of Hamilton?
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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pokerman
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:50 am
Invade wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:40 pm
Three of those guys haven't once had a Championship calibre car in their careers yet - hah!
I actually think Leclerc had a championship capable car for most of 2019. Sloppiness on the part of both the driver(s) and the team made it look like much more of a Mercedes walkover than it ought to have been.

After the technical directive that hit in the USA, no. But Ferrari could/should have won 9 of the first 18 races, not 3 like they actually did:

Bahrain: Leclerc's engine fails, taking away an assured win.
Baku: Leclerc crashes in qualifying while looking likely to set pole.
Monaco: Leclerc seems to have the pace for pole in practice, but the team botches his qualifying.
Canada: Vettel wins if he doesn't make an error and go across the grass.
Germany: Ferrari seemed to have the quickest car, but reliability in qualifying and errors in the race prevented them from challenging.
(They did win Belgium, Italy and Singapore)
Russia: One of the two cars would surely have won without Vettel's engine failure.

And an honorable mention to Mexcio, where Leclerc probably could have won if Ferrari hadn't misread the strategy.
It's something I ventured after last season but it's better coming from a non Hamilton/Mercedes fan. :thumbup:
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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
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2016: 4th Place

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pokerman
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:17 am
Exediron wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:16 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:01 pm
Till they achieve his level of success, it will remain a speculation of what they can achieve, Vettel has achieved that and is ahead of everyone you mentioned there except Hamilton.
Only Hamilton has achieved more than him in this current era!
Achievement in motorsport is a function of opportunity and ability. The others named have not had the opportunity (except for maybe Alonso, who undermined his potential achievement with off-track decisions rather than a lack of driving ability).
Which goes back to the same thing, till you achieve everything else is noise, what is there to say the others will ever achieve what he has achieved, he had his opportunity and he took it with both hands!

Also for Alonso it was driving ability, his moment in Suzuka is no different from Vettel in Singapore yet Vettel gets crucified for that moment and Alonso gets a pass!
Well they are basically going to have 13 years of sharing titles between them, the likes of Hamilton won't be driving for ever, 4 titles looks very doable.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:19 am
Invade wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:40 pm
Three of those guys haven't once had a Championship calibre car in their careers yet - hah!
Exactly why they should not be featured when talking about people who have dominated the sport.
None of them are presently being featured in the top 10, they haven't done enough to get featured apart from beating Vettel.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:09 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:00 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:17 am
Exediron wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:16 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:01 pm
Till they achieve his level of success, it will remain a speculation of what they can achieve, Vettel has achieved that and is ahead of everyone you mentioned there except Hamilton.
Only Hamilton has achieved more than him in this current era!
Achievement in motorsport is a function of opportunity and ability. The others named have not had the opportunity (except for maybe Alonso, who undermined his potential achievement with off-track decisions rather than a lack of driving ability).
Which goes back to the same thing, till you achieve everything else is noise, what is there to say the others will ever achieve what he has achieved, he had his opportunity and he took it with both hands!

Also for Alonso it was driving ability, his moment in Suzuka is no different from Vettel in Singapore yet Vettel gets crucified for that moment and Alonso gets a pass!
So what's your top 10 greatest then? Is it all based on stats?
My top 10 will always be my personal preference.

Which is not the premise of this thread!
So only you are allowed to have a personal preference?
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Rockie
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by Rockie »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:59 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:09 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:00 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:17 am
Exediron wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:16 pm


Achievement in motorsport is a function of opportunity and ability. The others named have not had the opportunity (except for maybe Alonso, who undermined his potential achievement with off-track decisions rather than a lack of driving ability).
Which goes back to the same thing, till you achieve everything else is noise, what is there to say the others will ever achieve what he has achieved, he had his opportunity and he took it with both hands!

Also for Alonso it was driving ability, his moment in Suzuka is no different from Vettel in Singapore yet Vettel gets crucified for that moment and Alonso gets a pass!
So what's your top 10 greatest then? Is it all based on stats?
My top 10 will always be my personal preference.

Which is not the premise of this thread!
So only you are allowed to have a personal preference?
You have this gift of derailing discussions with inanities, so whoever you are having a back and forth with basically just gives up!

I said my top 10 will always be my personal preference, not I am the only one who is allowed to have a personal preference.

Vettel not being in your own top 10 ATG, does not make him not an ATG of this sport based on his achievements which is the question of this thread.

Rockie
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by Rockie »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:55 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:17 am
Exediron wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:16 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:01 pm
Till they achieve his level of success, it will remain a speculation of what they can achieve, Vettel has achieved that and is ahead of everyone you mentioned there except Hamilton.
Only Hamilton has achieved more than him in this current era!
Achievement in motorsport is a function of opportunity and ability. The others named have not had the opportunity (except for maybe Alonso, who undermined his potential achievement with off-track decisions rather than a lack of driving ability).
Which goes back to the same thing, till you achieve everything else is noise, what is there to say the others will ever achieve what he has achieved, he had his opportunity and he took it with both hands!

Also for Alonso it was driving ability, his moment in Suzuka is no different from Vettel in Singapore yet Vettel gets crucified for that moment and Alonso gets a pass!
Well they are basically going to have 13 years of sharing titles between them, the likes of Hamilton won't be driving for ever, 4 titles looks very doable.
Just the same way everyone thought it will be Raikkonen v Alonso going forward before Hamilton then Vettel turned up!

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Exediron
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by Exediron »

Rockie wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:32 pm
Just the same way everyone thought it will be Raikkonen v Alonso going forward before Hamilton then Vettel turned up!
:thumbup:

You can't predict the future that accurately. Thirteen years is plenty of time for someone new to turn up and completely eclipse the championship battle we expect.
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WHoff78
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by WHoff78 »

Next season there will be 5 drivers on the starting grid who I assume that many (more than 50%, perhaps more) would agree are better than Vettel, so that's not a great starting point. I do hope that Vettel continues to be a fixture on the grid himself though because he is still right up there on his day.

pokerman
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:30 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:59 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:09 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:00 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:17 am


Which goes back to the same thing, till you achieve everything else is noise, what is there to say the others will ever achieve what he has achieved, he had his opportunity and he took it with both hands!

Also for Alonso it was driving ability, his moment in Suzuka is no different from Vettel in Singapore yet Vettel gets crucified for that moment and Alonso gets a pass!
So what's your top 10 greatest then? Is it all based on stats?
My top 10 will always be my personal preference.

Which is not the premise of this thread!
So only you are allowed to have a personal preference?
You have this gift of derailing discussions with inanities, so whoever you are having a back and forth with basically just gives up!

I said my top 10 will always be my personal preference, not I am the only one who is allowed to have a personal preference.

Vettel not being in your own top 10 ATG, does not make him not an ATG of this sport based on his achievements which is the question of this thread.
No you clearly stated that Vettel's stats themself determine that he should be on the list, that doesn't allow for personal opnion.
Last edited by pokerman on Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:32 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:55 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:17 am
Exediron wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:16 pm
Rockie wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:01 pm
Till they achieve his level of success, it will remain a speculation of what they can achieve, Vettel has achieved that and is ahead of everyone you mentioned there except Hamilton.
Only Hamilton has achieved more than him in this current era!
Achievement in motorsport is a function of opportunity and ability. The others named have not had the opportunity (except for maybe Alonso, who undermined his potential achievement with off-track decisions rather than a lack of driving ability).
Which goes back to the same thing, till you achieve everything else is noise, what is there to say the others will ever achieve what he has achieved, he had his opportunity and he took it with both hands!

Also for Alonso it was driving ability, his moment in Suzuka is no different from Vettel in Singapore yet Vettel gets crucified for that moment and Alonso gets a pass!
Well they are basically going to have 13 years of sharing titles between them, the likes of Hamilton won't be driving for ever, 4 titles looks very doable.
Just the same way everyone thought it will be Raikkonen v Alonso going forward before Hamilton then Vettel turned up!
Well Alonso has still made the list and gets rated above Vettel.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
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Re: Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?

Post by pokerman »

WHoff78 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:35 pm
Next season there will be 5 drivers on the starting grid who I assume that many (more than 50%, perhaps more) would agree are better than Vettel, so that's not a great starting point. I do hope that Vettel continues to be a fixture on the grid himself though because he is still right up there on his day.
Same here he's still a quality driver.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

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