It's not the car, it's Lewis!

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mikeyg123
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by mikeyg123 »

FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
I am because that is the subject of the thread. How much of a difference Hamilton is making. His closest rivals are the Ferrari's and he is partly responsible for making the Merc looks as good. Both Hamilton and Verstappen are making a big difference in terms of how the competitiveness of their cars are perceived in my opinion.
Definitely, the Ferrari boys are making their car look worse too with the mistakes
In the first part of the season every time Ferrari look competitive the drivers or team made errors. That has made the Mercedes look dominant.
The problem with your argument is that you are completely ignoring just how much worse Ferrari has been than Mercedes on their bad weekends, and how much more common their bad weekends have been.

Australia
China
Spain
Monaco
France
Silverstone
Hungary

In all these weekends, Ferrari has been hugely inferior to Mercedes. Not inferior by a small margin like Mercedes has been in the last few weekends, but inferior to the point where they would finish 20 seconds behind without safety cars on Sunday.

Mercedes’ bottom level was Austria. That was the only bad weekend they had. Everywhere else they have ranged from competitive to dominant.
China they should have finished 3rd - 4th if they didn't completely forget Leclerc

Monaco they finished 2nd

France leclerc finished just 0.9 behind bottas and probably would have gotten passed him with a couple more laps.

They haven't been as far behind as you are making out
Something has been misquoted somewhere as the words above are not mine.

Option or Prime
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Option or Prime »

True, they are Kingvoids comments :Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:08 am

KingVoid
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by KingVoid »

FormulaFun wrote:China they should have finished 3rd - 4th if they didn't completely forget Leclerc
But still miles behind Mercedes
Monaco they finished 2nd
That’s because of circumstances. Verstappen got a penalty and Bottas got a puncture. They were miles slower than Mercedes that weekend on ultimate pace.
France leclerc finished just 0.9 behind bottas and probably would have gotten passed him with a couple more laps.
Why not compare him to Hamilton.
They haven't been as far behind as you are making out
Funny how you don’t even have a response for Australia, Silverstone or Hungary.

I know you desperately to make it seem like the cars have been close this season, I understand your agenda, but that doesn’t correlate with what we’ve seen on track this year.

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Johnson
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Johnson »

To me the gap behind is kind of irrelevant. You are either the best package that weekend or you aren’t doesn’t change much if you win by 30 seconds or 2 seconds. It’s 25 points and 15 points for 3rd.

Whilst Ferrari were along way behind in 6 or so races, that’s still only 30% of the year (assuming that won’t happen again) and they had the car to finish 3rd in almost everyone of those races.

It’s better to be the 2nd fastest car, 0.7 off the fastest than it is to be the 3rd fastest car but 0.3 off the fastest. The first alongs you to finish 3rd, where are the later puts you P4-P5.

The season can still go either way, on one extreme Mercedes can have another hugely dominant year (if they win most of the remaining races) or it could be another year where Ferrari could have won or at least been in contention to the very end if they made less errors/ were slightly more reliable (if Ferrari win most of the remaining races)

KingVoid
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by KingVoid »

In Spain, Hamilton qualified 7 tenths behind Bottas. He would have never won that race if Mercedes wasn’t dominant. The gap behind is not irrelevant, it’s very important. A bigger advantage gives a driver more room for error.

FormulaFun
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by FormulaFun »

KingVoid wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:China they should have finished 3rd - 4th if they didn't completely forget Leclerc
But still miles behind Mercedes
Monaco they finished 2nd
That’s because of circumstances. Verstappen got a penalty and Bottas got a puncture. They were miles slower than Mercedes that weekend on ultimate pace.
France leclerc finished just 0.9 behind bottas and probably would have gotten passed him with a couple more laps.
Why not compare him to Hamilton.
They haven't been as far behind as you are making out
Funny how you don’t even have a response for Australia, Silverstone or Hungary.

I know you desperately to make it seem like the cars have been close this season, I understand your agenda, but that doesn’t correlate with what we’ve seen on track this year.
I'm not disagreeing that they have been behind at some races though, I'm just saying that some of the races you pointed out they weren't actually that far behind as you were making out.

The point is that were discussing how the Merc looks in the hands of Bottas rather than Hamilton is it not? or at least an average of the two drivers at each race. So why would I compare directly to Hamilton completely defeating the whole point of the thread. Bottas' hasn't had his races compromised due to strategy except for Singapore. The point being that both Hamilton and Verstappen are dominating their team mates and yet both Ferrari drivers are pretty closely matched. I don't think there are any drivers that could get the same performance out of the Merc this season.

KingVoid
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by KingVoid »

FormulaFun wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:China they should have finished 3rd - 4th if they didn't completely forget Leclerc
But still miles behind Mercedes
Monaco they finished 2nd
That’s because of circumstances. Verstappen got a penalty and Bottas got a puncture. They were miles slower than Mercedes that weekend on ultimate pace.
France leclerc finished just 0.9 behind bottas and probably would have gotten passed him with a couple more laps.
Why not compare him to Hamilton.
They haven't been as far behind as you are making out
Funny how you don’t even have a response for Australia, Silverstone or Hungary.

I know you desperately to make it seem like the cars have been close this season, I understand your agenda, but that doesn’t correlate with what we’ve seen on track this year.
I'm not disagreeing that they have been behind at some races though, I'm just saying that some of the races you pointed out they weren't actually that far behind as you were making out.

The point is that were discussing how the Merc looks in the hands of Bottas rather than Hamilton is it not? or at least an average of the two drivers at each race. So why would I compare directly to Hamilton completely defeating the whole point of the thread. Bottas' hasn't had his races compromised due to strategy except for Singapore. The point being that both Hamilton and Verstappen are dominating their team mates and yet both Ferrari drivers are pretty closely matched. I don't think there are any drivers that could get the same performance out of the Merc this season.
Or it could be that Ferrari have two top talents in the car, while Mercedes and Red Bull only have one?

If you put Gasly alongside Vettel and put a Leclerc-level driver alongside both Hamilton and Verstappen, I reckon that Vettel would look a lot better this season, while Max and Lewis wouldn’t look as good.

For instance, I always thought that Hamilton was better than Alonso in 2010 despite the fact that McLaren finished above Ferrari that season. It’s because Button was a noticeably better teammate than Massa.

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bourbon19
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by bourbon19 »

FormulaFun wrote:I love how you like to pretend that he lied to the stewards of his own accord when it was blatantly obvious he was told to do so by McLaren.
I do not pretend he has no mind of his own.
Also Lewis was a much younger and much more impetuous driver back then, his approach to racing was win or crash whereas now he is very consistent and measured so it's like comparing apples and pears really
True. But my point was not that he was wholly inconsistent and haphazard in the past, because that is simply not true. He was brilliant in the past; he probably had the most amazing rookie season of all modern drivers and had many measured and consistent drives. Hamilton's issues arose when he was on the back foot, due to an inferior car or the other challenges I mentioned.
KingVoid wrote: Or it could be that Ferrari have two top talents in the car, while Mercedes and Red Bull only have one?
If you put Gasly alongside Vettel and put a Leclerc-level driver alongside both Hamilton and Verstappen, I reckon that Vettel would look a lot better this season, while Max and Lewis wouldn’t look as good.
For instance, I always thought that Hamilton was better than Alonso in 2010 despite the fact that McLaren finished above Ferrari that season. It’s because Button was a noticeably better teammate than Massa.
I agree with this. Moreover, it's genuine competition which completely changes the landscape for a team.

Paolo_Lasardi
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

KingVoid wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:China they should have finished 3rd - 4th if they didn't completely forget Leclerc
But still miles behind Mercedes
Monaco they finished 2nd
That’s because of circumstances. Verstappen got a penalty and Bottas got a puncture. They were miles slower than Mercedes that weekend on ultimate pace.
France leclerc finished just 0.9 behind bottas and probably would have gotten passed him with a couple more laps.
Why not compare him to Hamilton.
They haven't been as far behind as you are making out
Funny how you don’t even have a response for Australia, Silverstone or Hungary.

I know you desperately to make it seem like the cars have been close this season, I understand your agenda, but that doesn’t correlate with what we’ve seen on track this year.
I'm not disagreeing that they have been behind at some races though, I'm just saying that some of the races you pointed out they weren't actually that far behind as you were making out.

The point is that were discussing how the Merc looks in the hands of Bottas rather than Hamilton is it not? or at least an average of the two drivers at each race. So why would I compare directly to Hamilton completely defeating the whole point of the thread. Bottas' hasn't had his races compromised due to strategy except for Singapore. The point being that both Hamilton and Verstappen are dominating their team mates and yet both Ferrari drivers are pretty closely matched. I don't think there are any drivers that could get the same performance out of the Merc this season.
Or it could be that Ferrari have two top talents in the car, while Mercedes and Red Bull only have one?

If you put Gasly alongside Vettel and put a Leclerc-level driver alongside both Hamilton and Verstappen, I reckon that Vettel would look a lot better this season, while Max and Lewis wouldn’t look as good.

For instance, I always thought that Hamilton was better than Alonso in 2010 despite the fact that McLaren finished above Ferrari that season. It’s because Button was a noticeably better teammate than Massa.
While both Hamilton and Verstappen are clearly better than Vettel, the difference between Vettel and Bottas may not be that big actually. Vettel looked only marginally more superiour to Räikkönen than Bottas to Massa ( despite a significant difference in experience).

While the judgment on Leclerc is still to be seen IMO, a consistent version ( = more experience? ) of his recent performance would have won the wdc for Ferrari in 2018 and turned 2017 into a thriller. These last two seasons, Ferrari had a driver problem more than a car problem.

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Invade
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Invade »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote: While both Hamilton and Verstappen are clearly better than Vettel, the difference between Vettel and Bottas may not be that big actually. Vettel looked only marginally more superiour to Räikkönen than Bottas to Massa ( despite a significant difference in experience).

While the judgment on Leclerc is still to be seen IMO, a consistent version ( = more experience? ) of his recent performance would have won the wdc for Ferrari in 2018 and turned 2017 into a thriller. These last two seasons, Ferrari had a driver problem more than a car problem.
Seems fair. These teammate comparisons I'm seeing seem to be glossing over the fact that Vettel had the chance to make it a real battle in 2017 and 2018, and in 2018 arguably had the better car, and yet he didn't come remotely close to taking the challenge down to the wire.

2019 isn't over yet. If Ferrari become dominant and Hamilton has 2 DNFs something nutty could happen.

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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by FormulaFun »

Today's qualifying for me has just confirmed that the Ferrari in 2018 was definitely ahead of the Merc and at least equal in 2017.

This is now Spa, Monza, Singapore, Sochi that Hamilton has out qualified vettel even tho the Ferrari is clearly superior

mikeyg123
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by mikeyg123 »

FormulaFun wrote:Today's qualifying for me has just confirmed that the Ferrari in 2018 was definitely ahead of the Merc and at least equal in 2017.

This is now Spa, Monza, Singapore, Sochi that Hamilton has out qualified vettel even tho the Ferrari is clearly superior
It really is starting to look like that.

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Invade
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Invade »

One thing for sure is that this is a surprising and comprehensive beatdown in qualifying from Leclerc that Vettel is being bombarded by. Leclerc just looks straight up quicker in raw one lap pace and by a large margin.

KingVoid
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by KingVoid »

FormulaFun wrote:Today's qualifying for me has just confirmed that the Ferrari in 2018 was definitely ahead of the Merc and at least equal in 2017.

This is now Spa, Monza, Singapore, Sochi that Hamilton has out qualified vettel even tho the Ferrari is clearly superior
In Monza the cars were basically equal over one lap.

But yes your general point stands. Now it’s become very difficult to argue that Vettel has tier 1 ultimate speed. You could dismiss 2014 as a fluke with the new regulation changes and everything. This you can’t dismiss.

KingVoid
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by KingVoid »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:China they should have finished 3rd - 4th if they didn't completely forget Leclerc
But still miles behind Mercedes
Monaco they finished 2nd
That’s because of circumstances. Verstappen got a penalty and Bottas got a puncture. They were miles slower than Mercedes that weekend on ultimate pace.
France leclerc finished just 0.9 behind bottas and probably would have gotten passed him with a couple more laps.
Why not compare him to Hamilton.
They haven't been as far behind as you are making out
Funny how you don’t even have a response for Australia, Silverstone or Hungary.

I know you desperately to make it seem like the cars have been close this season, I understand your agenda, but that doesn’t correlate with what we’ve seen on track this year.
I'm not disagreeing that they have been behind at some races though, I'm just saying that some of the races you pointed out they weren't actually that far behind as you were making out.

The point is that were discussing how the Merc looks in the hands of Bottas rather than Hamilton is it not? or at least an average of the two drivers at each race. So why would I compare directly to Hamilton completely defeating the whole point of the thread. Bottas' hasn't had his races compromised due to strategy except for Singapore. The point being that both Hamilton and Verstappen are dominating their team mates and yet both Ferrari drivers are pretty closely matched. I don't think there are any drivers that could get the same performance out of the Merc this season.
Or it could be that Ferrari have two top talents in the car, while Mercedes and Red Bull only have one?

If you put Gasly alongside Vettel and put a Leclerc-level driver alongside both Hamilton and Verstappen, I reckon that Vettel would look a lot better this season, while Max and Lewis wouldn’t look as good.

For instance, I always thought that Hamilton was better than Alonso in 2010 despite the fact that McLaren finished above Ferrari that season. It’s because Button was a noticeably better teammate than Massa.
While both Hamilton and Verstappen are clearly better than Vettel, the difference between Vettel and Bottas may not be that big actually. Vettel looked only marginally more superiour to Räikkönen than Bottas to Massa ( despite a significant difference in experience).
Qualifying pace between Vettel and Bottas is very close. On race pace, Vettel is a fair bit quicker. His advantage over Kimi on Sundays was a lot more convincing than Bottas’ minimal advantage over Massa.

Asphalt_World
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Asphalt_World »

FormulaFun wrote:Today's qualifying for me has just confirmed that the Ferrari in 2018 was definitely ahead of the Merc and at least equal in 2017.

This is now Spa, Monza, Singapore, Sochi that Hamilton has out qualified vettel even tho the Ferrari is clearly superior
Could Vettel simply have driven better in previous years and therefore current performances paint no pictures of their relative performances in previous years?

I can never understand why F1 drivers aren't seemingly allowed drops in form like we give to men and women across all other sports.
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Invade
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Invade »

Asphalt_World wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:Today's qualifying for me has just confirmed that the Ferrari in 2018 was definitely ahead of the Merc and at least equal in 2017.

This is now Spa, Monza, Singapore, Sochi that Hamilton has out qualified vettel even tho the Ferrari is clearly superior
Could Vettel simply have driven better in previous years and therefore current performances paint no pictures of their relative performances in previous years?

I can never understand why F1 drivers aren't seemingly allowed drops in form like we give to men and women across all other sports.

He could have, but it's not like he's been consistently pumping in great seasons. It's quite normal for Vettel to have a mixed season and not show impressive pace. We'll see how long this qualifying bombardment lasts for...

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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Asphalt_World »

Invade wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:Today's qualifying for me has just confirmed that the Ferrari in 2018 was definitely ahead of the Merc and at least equal in 2017.

This is now Spa, Monza, Singapore, Sochi that Hamilton has out qualified vettel even tho the Ferrari is clearly superior
Could Vettel simply have driven better in previous years and therefore current performances paint no pictures of their relative performances in previous years?

I can never understand why F1 drivers aren't seemingly allowed drops in form like we give to men and women across all other sports.

He could have, but it's not like he's been consistently pumping in great seasons. It's quite normal for Vettel to have a mixed season and not show impressive pace. We'll see how long this qualifying bombardment lasts for...
I understand, but F1 forums seem plagued with people deciding that driver A must be better than driver B because A was faster than driver C in year whatever and now driver C is slower/faster than driver D who beat A in go-karts 10 years ago. You know what I'm getting at.

In all other sports I see, people don't seem to make such claims based on years gone by and people are far more keen to look at possible dips in form to explain away relative performances.

By the way, I'm not trying to make Vettel out as being the best thing since sliced bread this year, because he's clearly had some big issues. This could simply be him getting past his best. a car that doesn't suit his style or simply a drop in form, We need to remembers that if your form drops and you slow by just a tenth of a second per lap, a sport like F1 highlights this massively due to the nature of the sport.
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mikeyg123
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by mikeyg123 »

Asphalt_World wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:Today's qualifying for me has just confirmed that the Ferrari in 2018 was definitely ahead of the Merc and at least equal in 2017.

This is now Spa, Monza, Singapore, Sochi that Hamilton has out qualified vettel even tho the Ferrari is clearly superior
Could Vettel simply have driven better in previous years and therefore current performances paint no pictures of their relative performances in previous years?

I can never understand why F1 drivers aren't seemingly allowed drops in form like we give to men and women across all other sports.
It's possible for sure but I don't think it's the most likely scenario. Not after we've seen the 2014 season as well.

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SmoothRide
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by SmoothRide »

Invade wrote:One thing for sure is that this is a surprising and comprehensive beatdown in qualifying from Leclerc that Vettel is being bombarded by. Leclerc just looks straight up quicker in raw one lap pace and by a large margin.
Leclerc is quicker, there is no doubt about that. Vettel seems oddly uncomfortable in the hybrid cars though and definitely not as fast as he used to be. Almost as if a different driver showed up after 2013.

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Invade
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Invade »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Invade wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:Today's qualifying for me has just confirmed that the Ferrari in 2018 was definitely ahead of the Merc and at least equal in 2017.

This is now Spa, Monza, Singapore, Sochi that Hamilton has out qualified vettel even tho the Ferrari is clearly superior
Could Vettel simply have driven better in previous years and therefore current performances paint no pictures of their relative performances in previous years?

I can never understand why F1 drivers aren't seemingly allowed drops in form like we give to men and women across all other sports.

He could have, but it's not like he's been consistently pumping in great seasons. It's quite normal for Vettel to have a mixed season and not show impressive pace. We'll see how long this qualifying bombardment lasts for...
I understand, but F1 forums seem plagued with people deciding that driver A must be better than driver B because A was faster than driver C in year whatever and now driver C is slower/faster than driver D who beat A in go-karts 10 years ago. You know what I'm getting at.

In all other sports I see, people don't seem to make such claims based on years gone by and people are far more keen to look at possible dips in form to explain away relative performances.

By the way, I'm not trying to make Vettel out as being the best thing since sliced bread this year, because he's clearly had some big issues. This could simply be him getting past his best. a car that doesn't suit his style or simply a drop in form, We need to remembers that if your form drops and you slow by just a tenth of a second per lap, a sport like F1 highlights this massively due to the nature of the sport.

Ye I'm with you wholeheartedly. It's something that's also baffled me seeing as I follow so many sports and various discussions. There's an absolutism in judgment when it comes to F1, which is ironic given that it's one of the murkiest sports to judge.

Pullrod
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Pullrod »

SmoothRide wrote:
Invade wrote:One thing for sure is that this is a surprising and comprehensive beatdown in qualifying from Leclerc that Vettel is being bombarded by. Leclerc just looks straight up quicker in raw one lap pace and by a large margin.
Leclerc is quicker, there is no doubt about that. Vettel seems oddly uncomfortable in the hybrid cars though and definitely not as fast as he used to be. Almost as if a different driver showed up after 2013.
At the beginning of the season, some people from Ferrari wanted to back Leclerc because he was so much faster than Vettel. No idea how they reached that conlusion. Simulator?
I was very surprised because many well connected people had no doubt and didn't think much about VET after the last years.

Asphalt_World
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Asphalt_World »

Invade wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Invade wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:Today's qualifying for me has just confirmed that the Ferrari in 2018 was definitely ahead of the Merc and at least equal in 2017.

This is now Spa, Monza, Singapore, Sochi that Hamilton has out qualified vettel even tho the Ferrari is clearly superior
Could Vettel simply have driven better in previous years and therefore current performances paint no pictures of their relative performances in previous years?

I can never understand why F1 drivers aren't seemingly allowed drops in form like we give to men and women across all other sports.

He could have, but it's not like he's been consistently pumping in great seasons. It's quite normal for Vettel to have a mixed season and not show impressive pace. We'll see how long this qualifying bombardment lasts for...

I understand, but F1 forums seem plagued with people deciding that driver A must be better than driver B because A was faster than driver C in year whatever and now driver C is slower/faster than driver D who beat A in go-karts 10 years ago. You know what I'm getting at.

In all other sports I see, people don't seem to make such claims based on years gone by and people are far more keen to look at possible dips in form to explain away relative performances.

By the way, I'm not trying to make Vettel out as being the best thing since sliced bread this year, because he's clearly had some big issues. This could simply be him getting past his best. a car that doesn't suit his style or simply a drop in form, We need to remembers that if your form drops and you slow by just a tenth of a second per lap, a sport like F1 highlights this massively due to the nature of the sport.

Ye I'm with you wholeheartedly. It's something that's also baffled me seeing as I follow so many sports and various discussions. There's an absolutism in judgment when it comes to F1, which is ironic given that it's one of the murkiest sports to judge.
Absolutely.
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FormulaFun
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by FormulaFun »

Unless vettel is on a 3 year old form dip but to me it's quite clear that he's left potential lap time on the table. Sure let's see, but if leclerc continues this form then to me it makes sense that the Ferrari had more to give in 2017/2018, and already it's debatabke which was the better car in those years. If Ferrari keep this form uo for the rest of the season as well then you could hardly say the Merc was the clear best car over the season for 2019

WHoff78
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by WHoff78 »

The thing is though many have suspected for a long time that Vettel has always been a small step behind the best, including Hamilton and Alonso which is a big part of the reason that they didn't take his earlier success so well. Vettels head to head with better team mates so far seems to support that position that's all. One of Vettels attributes that may well be under appreciated is his input towards car development. You can't argue that the teams he has driven at have generally been very strong. Not sure how much there is to that though as he's always been with well financed teams anyway.

mikeyg123
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by mikeyg123 »

WHoff78 wrote:The thing is though many have suspected for a long time that Vettel has always been a small step behind the best, including Hamilton and Alonso which is a big part of the reason that they didn't take his earlier success so well. Vettels head to head with better team mates so far seems to support that position that's all. One of Vettels attributes that may well be under appreciated is his input towards car development. You can't argue that the teams he has driven at have generally been very strong. Not sure how much there is to that though as he's always been with well financed teams anyway.
Yes, it's interesting that Alonso and Hamilton both knew he wasn't on their level.

KingVoid
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by KingVoid »

mikeyg123 wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:The thing is though many have suspected for a long time that Vettel has always been a small step behind the best, including Hamilton and Alonso which is a big part of the reason that they didn't take his earlier success so well. Vettels head to head with better team mates so far seems to support that position that's all. One of Vettels attributes that may well be under appreciated is his input towards car development. You can't argue that the teams he has driven at have generally been very strong. Not sure how much there is to that though as he's always been with well financed teams anyway.
Yes, it's interesting that Alonso and Hamilton both knew he wasn't on their level.
I think that Hamilton rates Vettel as a competitive but beatable rival, much like how he rated Button and Rosberg.

Whereas I think he sees Verstappen more like Alonso: a genuine and serious threat.

I wonder how he rates Leclerc.

Option or Prime
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Option or Prime »

I think he rates him highly. I think Leclerc is not only fast but strong mentally. Leclerc and Verstappen are probably equally as fast but CL has a cooler head. That will begin to grate with Max.
Hamilton will cope as he has nothing to prove, I expect some good racing between them.

sandman1347
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by sandman1347 »

I think Lewis rates both Max and Charles and he has had almost exclusively positive comments for both of them. With good reason too. I think F1 finds itself in a very lucky position to have 2 drivers; both just 21 years of age and already so clearly outstanding in their performance level. Both Max and Charles are indeed the real deal and I'm tempted to argue that they are the 2nd and third best drivers on the grid currently. I certainly cannot put Sebastian above either of them at this point and Daniel might be a match for Charles but I somehow doubt it.

I think those two are destined to battle each other for the title several times over. I don't think that either will have much of a rivalry with Lewis although it is possible that next year might bring a close title battle. I just think that Hamilton will drive for Mercedes for another 3 years or so and then he will most likely retire. I'm also not convinced that Mercedes will maintain their strength indefinitely. No team can win the title every year and at some point, the competition will get the better of them. When that happens, I expect Hamilton to walk away from the sport; having already broken the records.

That's kind of the way of things. Hamilton's generation is on its way out and this new generation is in the ascendancy. It's kind of an interesting time to witness. The question is; how much longer will Hamilton continue to win? I don't expect Mercedes to have the edge to start next season that they did early this year. It looks as though Ferrari have developed their way around the issues that plagued them early in the year and they are extracting a ton of performance from the car now. Ferrari seem to be consistently faster than Mercedes everywhere since the break and they were faster at several tracks even before that although they struggled to put a complete race weekend together without some kind of blunder. I see 2020 shaping up to be a close fight and we might get that cross-generation battle afterall.

Max and Red Bull are the big question mark. How long will he stay there if they don't develop a championship-capable car? Is Mercedes really the ultimate destination for Verstappen or can Red Bull win title again?

Pest44
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Pest44 »

sandman1347 wrote:Max and Red Bull are the big question mark. How long will he stay there if they don't develop a championship-capable car? Is Mercedes really the ultimate destination for Verstappen or can Red Bull win title again?
Could it be a similar situation to what happened to Schumacher at Ferrari when they signed Kimi and it forced Schumacher out? Maybe in 2021 if Red Bull don’t produce a championship challenging car next season Max might look at his options and Merc might swoop in and sign him. That would leave Hamilton with the same situation as Schumacher. Do I stay and fight Max even though I have nothing to
prove or retire with maybe not matching Schumacher’a records?

sandman1347
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by sandman1347 »

Pest44 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:Max and Red Bull are the big question mark. How long will he stay there if they don't develop a championship-capable car? Is Mercedes really the ultimate destination for Verstappen or can Red Bull win title again?
Could it be a similar situation to what happened to Schumacher at Ferrari when they signed Kimi and it forced Schumacher out? Maybe in 2021 if Red Bull don’t produce a championship challenging car next season Max might look at his options and Merc might swoop in and sign him. That would leave Hamilton with the same situation as Schumacher. Do I stay and fight Max even though I have nothing to
prove or retire with maybe not matching Schumacher’a records?
An unlikely scenario IMO. First of all, by 2021, the records will likely have already been broken. If Lewis wins another 2-4 races this year and if Mercedes build a title-contending car next year, it's hard to imagine Hamilton not getting 10 more wins between now and the end of 2020. It's certainly possible but I'd say not likely. Now Lewis winning the title this year is almost certain at this point but 2020 is a total unknown and it seems likely that the other teams (especially Ferrari) will be more competitive next season. That said, it is also possible that Mercedes have simply diverted a massive amount of resources towards next year's car already and that the car will be that much stronger for it.

Either way, I don't see Hamilton retiring without those records in towe. I also don't particularly see Max joining Mercedes for 2021. I think he will give Red Bull at least until the new regs are in place to see how they handle them. If Red Bull are still behind in 2021, that's when I think Max will start looking for the door.

Pest44
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Pest44 »

sandman1347 wrote:
Pest44 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:Max and Red Bull are the big question mark. How long will he stay there if they don't develop a championship-capable car? Is Mercedes really the ultimate destination for Verstappen or can Red Bull win title again?
Could it be a similar situation to what happened to Schumacher at Ferrari when they signed Kimi and it forced Schumacher out? Maybe in 2021 if Red Bull don’t produce a championship challenging car next season Max might look at his options and Merc might swoop in and sign him. That would leave Hamilton with the same situation as Schumacher. Do I stay and fight Max even though I have nothing to
prove or retire with maybe not matching Schumacher’a records?
An unlikely scenario IMO. First of all, by 2021, the records will likely have already been broken. If Lewis wins another 2-4 races this year and if Mercedes build a title-contending car next year, it's hard to imagine Hamilton not getting 10 more wins between now and the end of 2020. It's certainly possible but I'd say not likely. Now Lewis winning the title this year is almost certain at this point but 2020 is a total unknown and it seems likely that the other teams (especially Ferrari) will be more competitive next season. That said, it is also possible that Mercedes have simply diverted a massive amount of resources towards next year's car already and that the car will be that much stronger for it.

Either way, I don't see Hamilton retiring without those records in towe. I also don't particularly see Max joining Mercedes for 2021. I think he will give Red Bull at least until the new regs are in place to see how they handle them. If Red Bull are still behind in 2021, that's when I think Max will start looking for the door.
ATM it’s looking unlikely Hamilton will win 2-4 races this season with Ferrari’s progress so that’s not a certainty and winning 10 races in a season is no easy feet so again you can’t say for certain that will happen next year. I agree it looks like Merc have concentrated on the 2020 car now but that doesn’t mean they’ll have the upper hand straight away next year. With Ferrari’s progress recently you can’t bet against them running with that into next year.

I do think next year is a big year for Red Bull and Max. I can’t see the Verstappen camp being happy with another year of fighting for the occasional win. I think for Max to stay they need to put together a serious title bid. If they don’t I can see Verstappen fishing around at Merc or Ferrari and I’d be surprised if Merc would turn down the opportunity to sign given Lewis’ age.

FormulaFun
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by FormulaFun »

Think it depends a lot on what the 2021 regs bring with them. If they introduce the reverse grid I can see him retiring because he's already said that's stupid (as have many other drivers) but other than that Lewis being the racing fan he is I think he would look forward to the chance of closer racing the 2021 Cara should be capable of, so might see him stick around a couple of years for that

Paolo_Lasardi
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Invade wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:Today's qualifying for me has just confirmed that the Ferrari in 2018 was definitely ahead of the Merc and at least equal in 2017.

This is now Spa, Monza, Singapore, Sochi that Hamilton has out qualified vettel even tho the Ferrari is clearly superior
Could Vettel simply have driven better in previous years and therefore current performances paint no pictures of their relative performances in previous years?

I can never understand why F1 drivers aren't seemingly allowed drops in form like we give to men and women across all other sports.

He could have, but it's not like he's been consistently pumping in great seasons. It's quite normal for Vettel to have a mixed season and not show impressive pace. We'll see how long this qualifying bombardment lasts for...
I understand, but F1 forums seem plagued with people deciding that driver A must be better than driver B because A was faster than driver C in year whatever and now driver C is slower/faster than driver D who beat A in go-karts 10 years ago. You know what I'm getting at.

In all other sports I see, people don't seem to make such claims based on years gone by and people are far more keen to look at possible dips in form to explain away relative performances.

By the way, I'm not trying to make Vettel out as being the best thing since sliced bread this year, because he's clearly had some big issues. This could simply be him getting past his best. a car that doesn't suit his style or simply a drop in form, We need to remembers that if your form drops and you slow by just a tenth of a second per lap, a sport like F1 highlights this massively due to the nature of the sport.
In most other sports, the technical equipment is not that much decisive for success. Teammate comparisons are imperfect and have their flaws - but they are still the best available measure for driver quality ratings in F1. Actually, often they are the only corrective to pure fanboyism rating ;)

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Johnson
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Johnson »

The inevitable, how good were the 2017 and 2018 Ferrari’s will come up now. For example in 2017, Mercedes won largely due to its qualifying pace. 14-5 in pole positions against Ferrari, they got track position and saw it out on race day. But if Ferrari had been just 0.060 quicker on average, that would have been 10-9 in pole positions and a much closer season.

It will be interesting to see how Vettel vs Leclerc develops, especially next season.

sandman1347
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by sandman1347 »

Johnson wrote:The inevitable, how good were the 2017 and 2018 Ferrari’s will come up now. For example in 2017, Mercedes won largely due to its qualifying pace. 14-5 in pole positions against Ferrari, they got track position and saw it out on race day. But if Ferrari had been just 0.060 quicker on average, that would have been 10-9 in pole positions and a much closer season.

It will be interesting to see how Vettel vs Leclerc develops, especially next season.
I feel very strongly that if you swapped Hamilton for Vettel in both 2017 and 2018; Hamilton would have still won both championships. I think the Ferrari in 2018 was the better car fairly clearly overall and I think the 2017 Ferrari was at least as good as the Mercedes. The whole basis for comparisons between those cars was that Hamilton and Vettel were supposed to be similar in performance but I think the last few years have established, for me, that Hamilton is unquestionably a cut above Sebastian.

Ironically, we are seeing now with Seb and Charles exactly why it's better to have a #1 and #2 driver situation if you want to win titles. Both of their strategies are compromised because of each other and the team can't help but meddle and make even more of a mess of things.

Rockie
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Rockie »

sandman1347 wrote:
Johnson wrote:The inevitable, how good were the 2017 and 2018 Ferrari’s will come up now. For example in 2017, Mercedes won largely due to its qualifying pace. 14-5 in pole positions against Ferrari, they got track position and saw it out on race day. But if Ferrari had been just 0.060 quicker on average, that would have been 10-9 in pole positions and a much closer season.

It will be interesting to see how Vettel vs Leclerc develops, especially next season.
I feel very strongly that if you swapped Hamilton for Vettel in both 2017 and 2018; Hamilton would have still won both championships. I think the Ferrari in 2018 was the better car fairly clearly overall and I think the 2017 Ferrari was at least as good as the Mercedes. The whole basis for comparisons between those cars was that Hamilton and Vettel were supposed to be similar in performance but I think the last few years have established, for me, that Hamilton is unquestionably a cut above Sebastian.

Ironically, we are seeing now with Seb and Charles exactly why it's better to have a #1 and #2 driver situation if you want to win titles. Both of their strategies are compromised because of each other and the team can't help but meddle and make even more of a mess of things.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

mikeyg123
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by mikeyg123 »

Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Johnson wrote:The inevitable, how good were the 2017 and 2018 Ferrari’s will come up now. For example in 2017, Mercedes won largely due to its qualifying pace. 14-5 in pole positions against Ferrari, they got track position and saw it out on race day. But if Ferrari had been just 0.060 quicker on average, that would have been 10-9 in pole positions and a much closer season.

It will be interesting to see how Vettel vs Leclerc develops, especially next season.
I feel very strongly that if you swapped Hamilton for Vettel in both 2017 and 2018; Hamilton would have still won both championships. I think the Ferrari in 2018 was the better car fairly clearly overall and I think the 2017 Ferrari was at least as good as the Mercedes. The whole basis for comparisons between those cars was that Hamilton and Vettel were supposed to be similar in performance but I think the last few years have established, for me, that Hamilton is unquestionably a cut above Sebastian.

Ironically, we are seeing now with Seb and Charles exactly why it's better to have a #1 and #2 driver situation if you want to win titles. Both of their strategies are compromised because of each other and the team can't help but meddle and make even more of a mess of things.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
What a strong counter argument.

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tootsie323
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by tootsie323 »

Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Johnson wrote:The inevitable, how good were the 2017 and 2018 Ferrari’s will come up now. For example in 2017, Mercedes won largely due to its qualifying pace. 14-5 in pole positions against Ferrari, they got track position and saw it out on race day. But if Ferrari had been just 0.060 quicker on average, that would have been 10-9 in pole positions and a much closer season.

It will be interesting to see how Vettel vs Leclerc develops, especially next season.
I feel very strongly that if you swapped Hamilton for Vettel in both 2017 and 2018; Hamilton would have still won both championships. I think the Ferrari in 2018 was the better car fairly clearly overall and I think the 2017 Ferrari was at least as good as the Mercedes. The whole basis for comparisons between those cars was that Hamilton and Vettel were supposed to be similar in performance but I think the last few years have established, for me, that Hamilton is unquestionably a cut above Sebastian.

Ironically, we are seeing now with Seb and Charles exactly why it's better to have a #1 and #2 driver situation if you want to win titles. Both of their strategies are compromised because of each other and the team can't help but meddle and make even more of a mess of things.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I'm not convinced that Hamilton would have won both 2017 and 2018 titles if he and Vettel were effectively 'swapped' but, based on the form of those drivers, I do believe he would have ran the title much closer. Based on both the car and team, I'd have preferred to be in the Merc than the Ferrari.
In terms of 1 and #2 drivers I do agree that, as a team principal, you have to make a call as early as can be considered appropriate.

It's good to respond to a post with a reasoned argument.
Where I'm going, I don't need roads

Rockie
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Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Rockie »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Johnson wrote:The inevitable, how good were the 2017 and 2018 Ferrari’s will come up now. For example in 2017, Mercedes won largely due to its qualifying pace. 14-5 in pole positions against Ferrari, they got track position and saw it out on race day. But if Ferrari had been just 0.060 quicker on average, that would have been 10-9 in pole positions and a much closer season.

It will be interesting to see how Vettel vs Leclerc develops, especially next season.
I feel very strongly that if you swapped Hamilton for Vettel in both 2017 and 2018; Hamilton would have still won both championships. I think the Ferrari in 2018 was the better car fairly clearly overall and I think the 2017 Ferrari was at least as good as the Mercedes. The whole basis for comparisons between those cars was that Hamilton and Vettel were supposed to be similar in performance but I think the last few years have established, for me, that Hamilton is unquestionably a cut above Sebastian.

Ironically, we are seeing now with Seb and Charles exactly why it's better to have a #1 and #2 driver situation if you want to win titles. Both of their strategies are compromised because of each other and the team can't help but meddle and make even more of a mess of things.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
What a strong counter argument.
What counter argument would one give to this?

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