It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Forum rules
Please read the forum rules
User avatar
Johnson
Posts: 1437
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Johnson »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:The idea that it's all the car still is also demonstrably wrong.
At Silverstone both Mercedes were over 20 seconds ahead of any competitor at the end of the race.

It is the car.

That being said, my statement could apply to any winning driver and any winning team for the last forty years.

It is the car.
The best car doesn't always win the title. What is it when the best car doesn't win the title, the driver then?

Also, before Verstappen was rear ended by Vettel he said he had the pace to chase down Bottas for P2 at Silverstone.

mikeyg123
Posts: 17838
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by mikeyg123 »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:The idea that it's all the car still is also demonstrably wrong.
At Silverstone both Mercedes were over 20 seconds ahead of any competitor at the end of the race.

It is the car.

That being said, my statement could apply to any winning driver and any winning team for the last forty years.

It is the car.
I don't think it is anything as often as some people think. Look at the midfield this year. There is huge gaps between the drivers. A better driver can make a huge difference if things are close.

User avatar
Blinky McSquinty
Posts: 1457
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Johnson wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:The idea that it's all the car still is also demonstrably wrong.
At Silverstone both Mercedes were over 20 seconds ahead of any competitor at the end of the race.

It is the car.

That being said, my statement could apply to any winning driver and any winning team for the last forty years.

It is the car.
The best car doesn't always win the title. What is it when the best car doesn't win the title, the driver then?

Also, before Verstappen was rear ended by Vettel he said he had the pace to chase down Bottas for P2 at Silverstone.
At Silverstone both Mercedes were not even close to 100% of their potential, the cars were detuned. Witness Hamilton turning it up at the end and setting a lap record. He did it on a whim, that is how comfortably ahead that car is.

Mod Edit: Post Altered.
Only dogs, mothers, and quality undergarments give unconditional support.

mikeyg123
Posts: 17838
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by mikeyg123 »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:The idea that it's all the car still is also demonstrably wrong.
At Silverstone both Mercedes were over 20 seconds ahead of any competitor at the end of the race.

It is the car.

That being said, my statement could apply to any winning driver and any winning team for the last forty years.

It is the car.
The best car doesn't always win the title. What is it when the best car doesn't win the title, the driver then?

Also, before Verstappen was rear ended by Vettel he said he had the pace to chase down Bottas for P2 at Silverstone.
At Silverstone both Mercedes were not even close to 100% of their potential, the cars were detuned. Witness Hamilton turning it up at the end and setting a lap record. He did it on a whim, that is how comfortably ahead that car is.
At Silverstone.

User avatar
Flash2k11
Posts: 2932
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:06 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Flash2k11 »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:The idea that it's all the car still is also demonstrably wrong.
At Silverstone both Mercedes were over 20 seconds ahead of any competitor at the end of the race.

It is the car.

That being said, my statement could apply to any winning driver and any winning team for the last forty years.

It is the car.
The best car doesn't always win the title. What is it when the best car doesn't win the title, the driver then?

Also, before Verstappen was rear ended by Vettel he said he had the pace to chase down Bottas for P2 at Silverstone.
At Silverstone both Mercedes were not even close to 100% of their potential, the cars were detuned. Witness Hamilton turning it up at the end and setting a lap record. He did it on a whim, that is how comfortably ahead that car is.
1 lap, at one race, at a track that Mercedes openly state they use as the baseline for the cars performance targets. Also Lewis' home grand prix. Where the 2nd Mercedes was well on for being caught by Max before he got shunted. I dont think you can judge a cars performance advantage over an entire season based on that alone.
2018 Pick 10 Champion

F1 Racer
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by F1 Racer »

Flash2k11 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:The idea that it's all the car still is also demonstrably wrong.
At Silverstone both Mercedes were over 20 seconds ahead of any competitor at the end of the race.

It is the car.

That being said, my statement could apply to any winning driver and any winning team for the last forty years.

It is the car.
The best car doesn't always win the title. What is it when the best car doesn't win the title, the driver then?

Also, before Verstappen was rear ended by Vettel he said he had the pace to chase down Bottas for P2 at Silverstone.
At Silverstone both Mercedes were not even close to 100% of their potential, the cars were detuned. Witness Hamilton turning it up at the end and setting a lap record. He did it on a whim, that is how comfortably ahead that car is.
1 lap, at one race, at a track that Mercedes openly state they use as the baseline for the cars performance targets. Also Lewis' home grand prix. Where the 2nd Mercedes was well on for being caught by Max before he got shunted. I dont think you can judge a cars performance advantage over an entire season based on that alone.
Yeah, plus in France where Mercedes looked comfortable (in the hands of Hamilton), Leclerc was all over the back of Bottas by the end of the grand prix.

User avatar
Johnson
Posts: 1437
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Johnson »

Mod Edit: Inappropriate Post Removed

User avatar
Mod Yellow
Posts: 365
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:13 pm

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Mod Yellow »

No more bickering please ladies and gentlemen, or it wont just be the teams on holiday this August. ;)

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8140
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Exediron »

I'd just like to remind everyone that Pierre Gasly is driving the same car as Max Verstappen. Anyone who thinks it's all about the car, just take a look at their relative performance this year...

The car determines what you can fight for (points, podiums, wins, championships) but the driver determines if you actually get those things. It isn't possible for a driver to transcend those categories in modern F1 - if it ever was - but within each category, the driver matters a huge amount.
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

Vettel Fan
Posts: 192
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:40 am

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Vettel Fan »

He lost to Rosberg in the same car. Bottas and Rosberg never achieved anything in another car. They step into the Mercedes and are winning races. Its the car.

User avatar
Invade
Posts: 3053
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Invade »

Vettel Fan wrote:He lost to Rosberg in the same car. Bottas and Rosberg never achieved anything in another car. They step into the Mercedes and are winning races. Its the car.
I'm doubtful that Bottas paired with say Perez would have seen Merc win the WDC in either 2017 or 2018. Also, given how great the Ferrari car was in 2018 and the tremendous glut of errors Vettel made to mess up a golden opportunity at a 5th WDC, I venture to guess that a Hamilton-Vettel switch in 2018 might have seen Ferrari as World Champs.

In other words: when it's close, it's the driver. Splendidly proven in 2017-2018 between dear old Lewis and his good old pal Seb.

Option or Prime
Posts: 1929
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Location: UK

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Option or Prime »

Vettel Fan wrote:He lost to Rosberg in the same car. Bottas and Rosberg never achieved anything in another car. They step into the Mercedes and are winning races. Its the car.
You need to do a bit of research before saying that. Both drivers were at Williams, the last time Williams won a WDC was in 1980!

StanB123
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:28 pm

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by StanB123 »

Sorry for cutting this debate short, but:

It's a bit of both. Thank you, let us all move on. Nothing to see here.

Unless someone wants to discuss ratios ;)

User avatar
Lt. Drebin
Posts: 4796
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:51 am

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Lt. Drebin »

While the car is very important, one more parameter comes into play: how much is a specific car in accordance with the liking of the driver.

In certain cases also: around which driver is the car built.

Step further: how much set of rules regarding the cars favor one driver over the other.

So, nothing is black and white in drivers/cars comparison.
The end is near

LBET
Posts: 347
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by LBET »

Trick question. The answer is both. The driver has to be able to do what is required to get the most out of the car. If he is not able to adapt his driving style then time is left on the table.

User avatar
SmoothRide
Posts: 902
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:56 pm

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by SmoothRide »

When it comes to Max's mistakes, he made a few over his time in F1, including last season, but a certain point last year they stopped. Since then he has accumulated 21 straight top 5 finishes. He has turned from a fast driver into a fast and consistent one.

User avatar
froze
Posts: 2680
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:05 pm
Location: Finland

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by froze »

Yes, Bottas had another bad race, but you don't have to look no further than last saturday, when Bottas beat Hamilton in qualifying again. Not bad for a "broken man".
“I'm happy, but there's nothing to jump around about.”

F1 Racer
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by F1 Racer »

froze wrote:Yes, Bottas had another bad race, but you don't have to look no further than last saturday, when Bottas beat Hamilton in qualifying again. Not bad for a "broken man".
Qualifying is irrelevant when you are consistently losing further ground when it comes to points on race day. Valtteri is now miles behind Lewis in the championship in the same equipment, he is out of the title race now for sure and there is every chance that he will lose second spot in the WDC too.

User avatar
minchy
Posts: 5304
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:59 pm

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by minchy »

Not sure if someone else has pointed this out, but as the OP is averaging out the past 3 seasons showing the points difference between Hamilton and Bottas. Let's assume that Hamilton wins and Bottas is 2nd - divide Hamilton's points haul by the 25 for winning and Bottas's by 17 for coming 2nd and the numbers are fairly similar, which could show that he is doing as good a job as a number 2 driver as Hamilton is as the number 1 driver.

I personally don't think he is, but looking at the points average over the past 2.5 seasons would tell us otherwise!
There is no theory of evolution, just a list of animals that Chuck Norris allows to live.

F1 Racer
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by F1 Racer »

minchy wrote:Not sure if someone else has pointed this out, but as the OP is averaging out the past 3 seasons showing the points difference between Hamilton and Bottas. Let's assume that Hamilton wins and Bottas is 2nd - divide Hamilton's points haul by the 25 for winning and Bottas's by 17 for coming 2nd and the numbers are fairly similar, which could show that he is doing as good a job as a number 2 driver as Hamilton is as the number 1 driver.

I personally don't think he is, but looking at the points average over the past 2.5 seasons would tell us otherwise!
This is really bad for Bottas though, because while 25/18 = 1.39 which is roughly the same as 1021/742 = 1.38 what you are effectively saying is that on average Bottas is being beaten by Hamilton in every single race by almost the same gap as there are points between 1st and 2nd.

In fact he is outscoring Bottas by 5.26 points a race which is massive when you are in the same car.

For example something more reasonably bad might be out of say 50 races, Hamilton wins say 35 races with 15 2nd places and Bottas has 15 wins and 35 2nd places. That would be Hamilton on 1145 points and Bottas on 1005 points and 1145/1005 = 1.14 and Hamilton outscoring Bottas by 2.8 points per race. Instead the numbers are 1.38 and 5.26 respectively which is far, far worse.

Teddy007
Posts: 1079
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:54 pm
Contact:

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Teddy007 »

F1 Racer wrote: Discuss.
Never did understand this whole "it's the car" fiasco. The first person they need to beat is their team mate and no really bad driver is going to keep their seat unless it is paid for.

Reliability can be a factor, luck, strategy etc. But at the end of the day people still question Lewis Hamilton. Considering he has won a championship in two different cars and different eras of F1. He makes a single mistake costing him a victory in Germany and again "when will Hamilton return to winning ways". This is a guy that has beaten the majority of his team mates in or out of a race winning capable car. This is a guy that gets his personal life questioned every time he loses then bounces back. He can win in a car that dominates, 2nd best and even 3rd best on the grid. Like any other human though.. he makes mistakes.

If the best out of the top 6 are Max, Lewis and Sebastian.... name me one of those drivers that hasn't made a costly mistake.. you can't.

It is banter at times but some really do take it over the top. At a track best suited to RBR and a win was on the cards after qualifying 1st - Max/RBR lose it. And to a strategy that many doubted and thought Max had it in the bag. Lewis/Merc again (after many many times) pull a rabbit out of the hat. And this weekend also summed up Bottas - there but not quite. Do I think he should be replaced? Merc need to decided if they want a Nico/Lewis again... and remember that Merc isn't dominating like they used to. Race wins are now being fought by 3 teams and track specific (plus reliability etc). Instead of just mainly two teams or one.

Lewis/Merc are currently a perfect partnership. And frankly no one can whine about him or them.

Siao7
Posts: 8637
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Siao7 »

Teddy007 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote: Discuss.
Never did understand this whole "it's the car" fiasco. The first person they need to beat is their team mate and no really bad driver is going to keep their seat unless it is paid for.

Reliability can be a factor, luck, strategy etc. But at the end of the day people still question Lewis Hamilton. Considering he has won a championship in two different cars and different eras of F1. He makes a single mistake costing him a victory in Germany and again "when will Hamilton return to winning ways". This is a guy that has beaten the majority of his team mates in or out of a race winning capable car. This is a guy that gets his personal life questioned every time he loses then bounces back. He can win in a car that dominates, 2nd best and even 3rd best on the grid. Like any other human though.. he makes mistakes.

If the best out of the top 6 are Max, Lewis and Sebastian.... name me one of those drivers that hasn't made a costly mistake.. you can't.

It is banter at times but some really do take it over the top. At a track best suited to RBR and a win was on the cards after qualifying 1st - Max/RBR lose it. And to a strategy that many doubted and thought Max had it in the bag. Lewis/Merc again (after many many times) pull a rabbit out of the hat. And this weekend also summed up Bottas - there but not quite. Do I think he should be replaced? Merc need to decided if they want a Nico/Lewis again... and remember that Merc isn't dominating like they used to. Race wins are now being fought by 3 teams and track specific (plus reliability etc). Instead of just mainly two teams or one.

Lewis/Merc are currently a perfect partnership. And frankly no one can whine about him or them.
Very good post. Sums it up perfectly

FormulaFun
Posts: 2762
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by FormulaFun »

Lewis is literally one of the greatest of all time and people still doubt him. It's a facet of his career that he's a marmite character to some so people are always going to want to tear him down, hilariously for things they permiss for their favoured driver.

But at the end of his career he could be the most successful driver in F1 history, and that would be an undisputable fact..after an era with Schumacher we thought would never be topped.

Hamilton has achieved crazy things which not many can claim even before he began to dominate the sport in 2014:

Beat reigning 2x WDC in rookie season
At least 1 pole and win in every season he's competed
The ONLY non RBR driver to get a pole in 2011 with what was an insane lap in Korea
2008 British GP was a joke
Beaten every team mate he ever had, many of which have been WDC winners
Probably the best race craft on the grid
Challenged for WDCs and won WDCs in cars which were 2nd/3rd best

Yet people want to shrug him off or give it "anyone could accomplish what he has in the Merc" that is total trash as OP says.

2017/2018 he was not even in the best car arguably yet won the WDC against another 4x WDC

Anyone else in that Merc would probably have won 2 WDCs dependant on performance against their team mate, not 4 (soon to be 5)

Verstappen33
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:53 pm

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Verstappen33 »

2017/2018 not in the best car?
I have a feeling a lot of people might see it differently but I am open to different views :)

shoot999
Posts: 3087
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:23 am

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by shoot999 »

Verstappen33 wrote:2017/2018 not in the best car?
I have a feeling a lot of people might see it differently but I am open to different views :)
Probably why they put 'arguably'. :)

And when he retires he will be 'arguably' the GOAT. :D

mikeyg123
Posts: 17838
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by mikeyg123 »

shoot999 wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:2017/2018 not in the best car?
I have a feeling a lot of people might see it differently but I am open to different views :)
Probably why they put 'arguably'. :)

And when he retires he will be 'arguably' the GOAT. :D
Very arguable but if he ends up statistically the best he'll have to be in the conversation.

FormulaFun
Posts: 2762
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by FormulaFun »

Verstappen33 wrote:2017/2018 not in the best car?
I have a feeling a lot of people might see it differently but I am open to different views :)
I think it's quite commonly put forward that the 2018 Ferrari was a quicker car, this isn't some radical fringe opinion

Worldchampion
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:23 am

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Worldchampion »

Lewis drives that pony like its stolen...

That's a horse off

Siao7
Posts: 8637
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Siao7 »

FormulaFun wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:2017/2018 not in the best car?
I have a feeling a lot of people might see it differently but I am open to different views :)
I think it's quite commonly put forward that the 2018 Ferrari was a quicker car, this isn't some radical fringe opinion
It is also true that being a quick car in the straight doesn't make it the overall best car. The Ferrari has/had the strongest engine and was pulling on the straights, but suffered on the slower turns, was thirstier and probably not as good on the tyres as the Merc (once the tyres changed late last year). The Merc is overall a more refined car if you want.

FormulaFun
Posts: 2762
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by FormulaFun »

Siao7 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:2017/2018 not in the best car?
I have a feeling a lot of people might see it differently but I am open to different views :)
I think it's quite commonly put forward that the 2018 Ferrari was a quicker car, this isn't some radical fringe opinion
It is also true that being a quick car in the straight doesn't make it the overall best car. The Ferrari has/had the strongest engine and was pulling on the straights, but suffered on the slower turns, was thirstier and probably not as good on the tyres as the Merc (once the tyres changed late last year). The Merc is overall a more refined car if you want.
In what way was the Ferrari only quicker on the straights than the Merc? Ferrari were stronger on power circuits but not to the extent they relied on it as much as they are this year, they had a seriously quick car last year I think you have forgotten and were on top in Hungary even until it rained...

They were ahead significantly shortly after the summer break Germany, Hungary, Spa, Monza yet Hamilton won 3 of them 4 races

First.half of the season they had been quicker https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/06/201 ... -quickest/

Cba to debate this tbh I thought it was commonly accepted that the 2018 Ferrari was as fast/faster as the Merc

Siao7
Posts: 8637
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Siao7 »

FormulaFun wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:2017/2018 not in the best car?
I have a feeling a lot of people might see it differently but I am open to different views :)
I think it's quite commonly put forward that the 2018 Ferrari was a quicker car, this isn't some radical fringe opinion
It is also true that being a quick car in the straight doesn't make it the overall best car. The Ferrari has/had the strongest engine and was pulling on the straights, but suffered on the slower turns, was thirstier and probably not as good on the tyres as the Merc (once the tyres changed late last year). The Merc is overall a more refined car if you want.
In what way was the Ferrari only quicker on the straights than the Merc? Ferrari were stronger on power circuits but not to the extent they relied on it as much as they are this year, they had a seriously quick car last year I think you have forgotten and were on top in Hungary even until it rained...

They were ahead significantly shortly after the summer break Germany, Hungary, Spa, Monza yet Hamilton won 3 of them 4 races

First.half of the season they had been quicker https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/06/201 ... -quickest/

Cba to debate this tbh I thought it was commonly accepted that the 2018 Ferrari was as fast/faster as the Merc
That is fine, cba is a valid argument. I see you have changed your stance from your original "not on the best car" to "as fast/faster", that's something.

FormulaFun
Posts: 2762
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by FormulaFun »

Siao7 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:2017/2018 not in the best car?
I have a feeling a lot of people might see it differently but I am open to different views :)
I think it's quite commonly put forward that the 2018 Ferrari was a quicker car, this isn't some radical fringe opinion
It is also true that being a quick car in the straight doesn't make it the overall best car. The Ferrari has/had the strongest engine and was pulling on the straights, but suffered on the slower turns, was thirstier and probably not as good on the tyres as the Merc (once the tyres changed late last year). The Merc is overall a more refined car if you want.
In what way was the Ferrari only quicker on the straights than the Merc? Ferrari were stronger on power circuits but not to the extent they relied on it as much as they are this year, they had a seriously quick car last year I think you have forgotten and were on top in Hungary even until it rained...

They were ahead significantly shortly after the summer break Germany, Hungary, Spa, Monza yet Hamilton won 3 of them 4 races

First.half of the season they had been quicker https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/06/201 ... -quickest/

Cba to debate this tbh I thought it was commonly accepted that the 2018 Ferrari was as fast/faster as the Merc
That is fine, cba is a valid argument. I see you have changed your stance from your original "not on the best car" to "as fast/faster", that's something.
I haven't changed my stance on anything son, I said Merc was arguably not the outright best car in 2018, the Ferrari was as fast or faster than the Merc.

People argue black is white here so I'm not looking to derail the post in a 5 page debate, if you wanna get into it then you can make a new thread and come up with something substantial rather than sarcastic comments, maybe then there would be some value in having a debate

User avatar
Johnson
Posts: 1437
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Johnson »

Hamilton vs Vettel in 2018. Vettel had a bulletproof season. Hamilton had a race mechanical DNF and a qualifying mechanical resulting in a P14 start. Vettel should have won both those races. The reliability should have been worth approximately 25-32 points in Vettels favour which is a big swing.

Lord Crc
Posts: 273
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:06 pm

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Lord Crc »

Since 2014, he would have struggled to win with another car. And I'm certain Rosberg could not have done his WDC title in another car.

On the flip side, there's been few others on the grid which I think would have seriously challenged him over those years. Alonso before he lost motivation. Vettel certainly has it in him. And I think Hamilton would have a much tougher season if Max was in the other seat this year.

JN23
Posts: 2402
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by JN23 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:2017/2018 not in the best car?
I have a feeling a lot of people might see it differently but I am open to different views :)
Probably why they put 'arguably'. :)

And when he retires he will be 'arguably' the GOAT. :D
Very arguable but if he ends up statistically the best he'll have to be in the conversation.
Is he not in the conversation whether he ends up statistically the best or not? Personally I think if he retired at the end of this season as a 6x WDC then he's in the conversation.

mikeyg123
Posts: 17838
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by mikeyg123 »

JN23 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:2017/2018 not in the best car?
I have a feeling a lot of people might see it differently but I am open to different views :)
Probably why they put 'arguably'. :)

And when he retires he will be 'arguably' the GOAT. :D
Very arguable but if he ends up statistically the best he'll have to be in the conversation.
Is he not in the conversation whether he ends up statistically the best or not? Personally I think if he retired at the end of this season as a 6x WDC then he's in the conversation.
Personally not quite for me. When talking about that level you have to consider a whole career rather than just the best bits and judge at a ruthlessly high standard. Right now I put him alongside Jackie Stewart just outside of GOAT conversation.

JN23
Posts: 2402
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by JN23 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
JN23 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:2017/2018 not in the best car?
I have a feeling a lot of people might see it differently but I am open to different views :)
Probably why they put 'arguably'. :)

And when he retires he will be 'arguably' the GOAT. :D
Very arguable but if he ends up statistically the best he'll have to be in the conversation.
Is he not in the conversation whether he ends up statistically the best or not? Personally I think if he retired at the end of this season as a 6x WDC then he's in the conversation.
Personally not quite for me. When talking about that level you have to consider a whole career rather than just the best bits and judge at a ruthlessly high standard. Right now I put him alongside Jackie Stewart just outside of GOAT conversation.
Fair enough :thumbup:

F1 Racer
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by F1 Racer »

Lord Crc wrote:Since 2014, he would have struggled to win with another car. And I'm certain Rosberg could not have done his WDC title in another car.

On the flip side, there's been few others on the grid which I think would have seriously challenged him over those years. Alonso before he lost motivation. Vettel certainly has it in him. And I think Hamilton would have a much tougher season if Max was in the other seat this year.
No one is disputing 2014 to 2016. There Mercedes' dominance was so much that even poor and average drivers could have won a championship in that equipment.

Lord Crc
Posts: 273
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:06 pm

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Lord Crc »

F1 Racer wrote:There Mercedes' dominance was so much that even poor and average drivers could have won a championship in that equipment.
Most likely. My point was that they wouldn't as long as Hamilton had a seat in it.

Siao7
Posts: 8637
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: It's not the car, it's Lewis!

Post by Siao7 »

FormulaFun wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
I think it's quite commonly put forward that the 2018 Ferrari was a quicker car, this isn't some radical fringe opinion
It is also true that being a quick car in the straight doesn't make it the overall best car. The Ferrari has/had the strongest engine and was pulling on the straights, but suffered on the slower turns, was thirstier and probably not as good on the tyres as the Merc (once the tyres changed late last year). The Merc is overall a more refined car if you want.
In what way was the Ferrari only quicker on the straights than the Merc? Ferrari were stronger on power circuits but not to the extent they relied on it as much as they are this year, they had a seriously quick car last year I think you have forgotten and were on top in Hungary even until it rained...

They were ahead significantly shortly after the summer break Germany, Hungary, Spa, Monza yet Hamilton won 3 of them 4 races

First.half of the season they had been quicker https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/06/201 ... -quickest/

Cba to debate this tbh I thought it was commonly accepted that the 2018 Ferrari was as fast/faster as the Merc
That is fine, cba is a valid argument. I see you have changed your stance from your original "not on the best car" to "as fast/faster", that's something.
I haven't changed my stance on anything son, I said Merc was arguably not the outright best car in 2018, the Ferrari was as fast or faster than the Merc.

People argue black is white here so I'm not looking to derail the post in a 5 page debate, if you wanna get into it then you can make a new thread and come up with something substantial rather than sarcastic comments, maybe then there would be some value in having a debate
"Son"??? Haha, really? Come on, what's next, mom jokes? Anyway.

We agree on the last part, it is not a black and white issue. And no one said outright best car for Merc, Ferrari was better in some races and Merc in others. Saying that they won in not the best car is a bit misleading, Merc is (arguably if you want) the car to have since 2014. Maybe it does not have the dominance of 2014-2016 as the rules finally allowed for convergence, but it is the most refined car, with a top engine, top chassis, good on tyres and with the best team around it. Put a top driver in it as well and they win every year. Maybe people are buying into all this "heroic effort to make it, we love you guys back at the factory" moto that Mercedes is on about for the last few seasons; they have to make it interesting I guess.

Post Reply